ART AND SCIENCE BUILDINGS, GREAT BRITAIN. (Hansard, 8 April 1930)

§ Mr. ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUEL
When the Debate was adjourned on Friday last, I examined in some detail Items 1, 2, and 4 on page 5. Of course, I shall not go over all those items again, but I would like to ask the First Commissioner of Works to explain how the appropriation-in-aid, amounting to £86,330, is arrived at. I was addressing myself to the question of the Geological Museum when the Debate was interrupted last Friday, and I drew attention to items on this Vote on page 5, No. 4. There is an item in the Vote for the Geological Museum new building. I should like to know if there are going to be alterations to provide additional accommodation for the Department of Geology, and if any provision is being made for the removal of the Geological Museum from Jermyn Street. If that is going to be done, has any arrangement been made for the surrender of the value of the site, and into what fund will that go? It is well known to all 2114 Members of the House that there has been an arrangement to make Jermyn Street a one-way street, and I would like to know what arrangements have been made for widening that street?

§ The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Mr. Lansbury)
I have nothing to do with the widening of streets.

§ Mr. SAMUEL
There is an item of £220,000. Does that cover the removal of the Geological Museum from Jermyn Street?

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
The hon. Member is only entitled to ask any question in regard to an item for which the First Commissioner of Works is responsible.

§ Mr. SAMUEL
I will endeavour to obey your Ruling, Mr. Dunnico. If there is an amount due to the Crown for the site on which the Jermyn Street Museum now stands, does the right hon. Gentleman take any of that money towards this Vote?

§ Mr. LANSBURY
The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that that money will not revert to the Office of Works, but to the Commissioners of Crown Lands.

§ Mr. SAMUEL
I did not know it, and that was why I put the question. The right hon. Gentleman has now given, me the answer that he might as well have given at first.
On page 7 there is an item for the Royal Scottish Museum at Edinburgh. My hon. Friends behind me will probably deal with that point, but here we have something for which the right hon. Gentleman is responsible, and I should like to ask why there is an unexpended Vote of £6,000. Hon. Gentlemen have been on the Public Accounts Committee, and they will bear me out in saying that the House does not look with favour on these large unexpended Votes. It will require to know what is the reason for this one. The right hon. Gentleman is now asking for £6,000 to be voted again, having only spent £2,000 of the £8,000 previously granted; and he asks for £7,500 more, making a total of £13,500. I shall want some assurance from him, and I think other Members will also, that he is going to spend this £13,500 in 1930–31. As be spent only a quarter of the amount allotted last year, we cannot pass this Vote when past experience seems to show that his predecessor asked for money 2115 which he himself has not expended. I protest against these re-votes. I think that they represent very bad accounting and very bad budgeting.
Then there is an item, "National Gallery, Instalment of Electric Light," where we are asked to vote, for works and services, the sum of £12,000. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what type of lighting he proposes to use. Again, on the next page, there is an item for the National Gallery of British Art, which I presume is the Gallery at Mill-bank. I am glad to bear that the lighting is to be altered. I know the difficulties of lighting such galleries, and I trust that experiments will be made with a view to adopting a successful system of lighting the pictures. The lighting of these galleries, as of this Chamber, belongs to 25 years ago. If hon. Members will try it now, they will see that we are in a dim vault. The lighting here is dreadful, and if an attempt is made to light either the National Gallery or the Millbank Gallery on systems which were popular 25 years ago, it will still fail to give proper lighting for the pictures. I was at the National Gallery the other day, and one could not see the pictures because of the reflection of the light in the glass. I hope that the right. hon. Gentleman will use some modern system of lighting with diffused rays, such as that used at the Savoy Theatre; and I hope that, when be has made experiments at the National Gallery, he will come down here and alter the lighting of this Chamber.
Then there is an item of £47,000 for the Froude Tank. I suppose that that is for testing the violence of water waves, and, if so, it is an extraordinarily large. amount. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will explain it. Why is it necessary to spend so much? With regard to acoustics, I hope he will be successful in solving something that has hitherto puzzled engineers.

§ Captain CAZALET
Information has been given us in answers regarding the lighting in the National Gallery. I presume, although money is being granted by Parliament and the work is controlled by the right hon. Gentleman himself, he is consulting the trustees and their opinion is asked and their sanction will be required as to what lighting will be good for the pictures.

§ Rear-Admiral BEAMISH
I am anxious to know about the annual report, with regard to the work carried out it the fuel research station at Greenwich.

§ Mr. LANSBURY
I am afraid that again is not a matter on which I can give any information. We are only providing the buildings and apparatus. The report will come, I should think, under the Board of Trade.

§ Rear-Admiral BEAMISH
I am justified in having asked for information as the First Commissioner is in some doubt himself.

§ Mr. LANSBURY
I am not in any doubt as to my own responsibility. I have none.

§ Mr. C. WILLIAMS
On this matter of fuel research I quite agree that the right hon. Gentleman cannot be expected to make a report himself.

§ Mr. LANSBURY
The hon. Member must understand that the running of that Department is not within the jurisdiction of the Office of Works, so that I am not responsible in any way. If I were, I should be able to answer.

§ Mr. WILLIAMS
That is precisely what I said but fuel research is a most important matter and I want to know whether the right hon. Gentleman is standing in the way of its development by holding up the buildings. That is what my hon. and gallant Friend wanted to know. I think someone is holding it up and I want to be sure the right hon. Gentleman is not the person. With regard to the new building for the Geological Museum, the sum is considerable. The buildings are getting on fairly well but not as well as might be hoped. When will the work be absolutely completed, and does the hon. Gentleman think the building will be more suitable for seeing the geological works that will he housed there. than the present building?
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether his authorities have been able to assure him that the new buildings are at least as efficient as the old for the preservation of the various geological examples which will be placed in them? On page 6 there is reference to the Natural History Museum and the whale 2117 room. I need not enlarge upon the purpose of the extension. I am not particularly interested in whales. I should like to know whether in this room it, will also be possible to provide accommodation for grey seals? That would be an additional reason for spending the money on this occasion. On page 8 there is an item in regard to which my mind is not quite clear. I should like an explanation of what is meant by an approved tank? How many of these tanks are there in existence?

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
The only concern of the hon. Member should be whether this money should be granted for this particular tank.

§ Mr. WILLIAMS
I want to know whether the right hon. Gentleman can give an assurance that this particular tank is the very latest and most up-to-date of its kind. On page 9, in connection with the National Portrait Gallery and Museum of Antiquities, Edinburgh, there is an item of £15,000 for fire proofing. I cannot make out why they want such a frightful lot of fire proofing in Edinburgh for this purpose. Is there any particular danger? Have you to guard against incendiaries coming from the Clydeside? I know that the right hon. Gentleman in charge of these Estimates is a very mild man. I want to know whether this is an ordinary precaution, or whether he is like certain old ladies who think that there are Bolshevists everywhere and is therefore having particular attention paid to this matter? We know that they are very tame people in Edinburgh, and I hope that everything possible is being done to protect them from any wild people.

§ Mr. LANSBURY
I do not object to the questions put by hon. Members opposite. It is the duty of hon. Members to scrutinise estimates of expenditure. The Estimates have to do with work which it is imperative we should carry out at the earliest possible moment. That is why we are anxious to get them through this evening. I can assure hon. Members that there is no question of holding up work anywhere. The Research Station will be carried through with as much expedition as possible. I am now able to inform the hon. Member who made inquiries on the subject, that there is an annual report issued by the Department 2118 of Scientific and Industrial Research. I am not quite sure under which Department that comes; perhaps it is the Board of Trade. [HON. MEMBERS: "The Board of Education."] The Geological Museum will be completed as soon as possible. While I am at the Office of Works hon. Members may be sure that we shall get on with every scrap of work as rapidly as we can. Whether it will be better for the exhibits, we shall know when the job is finished but, obviously, we are convinced that it will, otherise we would not have undertaken the work.

§ Mr. C. WILLIAMS
Are the materials British?

§ Mr. LANSBURY
As far as possible. There are some things that we cannot get in this country and we may have to get them from abroad, but there is a standing rule in the Office of Works that all the materials used shall, as far as possible, be British. As to grey seals, the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) must not mix them up with these Estimates. With regard to the Scottish gallery, the experts, who are not old ladies, think that it is necessary to carry out the work, and we shall get on with it as quickly as we can. With regard to the lighting of galleries and museums we have taken a great deal of advice. The Office of Works never undertakes any change in lighting without taking the very best advice. Changes of lighting in this building have been undertaken only after very careful consultation and consideration. I can assure hon. Members that when it comes to dealing with the museums, the National Gallery, the National Portrait Gallery or the Tate Gallery we shall not introduce any system of lighting without full consultation with the people concerned, and those best able to advise us.

§ Mr. A. M. SAMUEL
I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. Will he undertake not to embark at once upon a final decision as to what the lighting will be? I accept what he says that he will take the best possible advice. As we are not certain which system of lighting would be best, would it not be advisable to try lighting one gallery and let the public see it before deciding to proceed with the whole system of lighting?

§ Mr. LANSBURY
That would have to be decided with the trustees of the vari- 2119 ous buildings. We cannot carry out the recommendations of the Royal Commission to open these places at night, without providing artificial light. I can promise that we will take the very best expert advice on the subject. The hon. Member raised a number of questions in regard to the way the Estimates were prescribed. He knows better than I can tell him why they are made up in this particular way. He made some strong remarks about the wrongfulness of the re-votes, but I should like to point out that last year there was a cut of £30,000, and this was made because it was anticipated that the whole of the amount would not be spent. Whoever framed the Estimates reckoned that there would be an under-spending of £30,000. The actual under-spending was £34,000. All these re-votes arise because of the delay in spending that money, which is inevitable in the circumstances under which the Department is obliged to work. A re-vote is always included in the amount asked for every year, and so far as furniture and removals are concerned it will be accounted for as it is expended year by year. It is not included in the total of the Estimate we are now discussing. In regard to the British Museum there was first an interim report of the Royal Commission on Museums and Art Galleries. The final report was presented last year but there have been considerable discussions as to the best way of carrying out the alterations and additions and the result has been delay, but now we shall be able to go full steam ahead. The hon. Member also raised the question of providing accommodation for newspapers. That is not a matter for the Office of Works to decide. It is a question for the Trustees of the British Museum.

§ Mr. A. M. SAMUEL
Yes, I agree. This is the only opportunity we have of raising questions concerning the administration of the British Museum. It is run under its own Act of Parliament. Here we have a sum of £50,000 to be voted for this purpose and I think we should really take this occasion to ask how long this policy is to continue of erecting these great buildings for the purpose of storing newspapers which may or may not be required. I would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman 2120 should consult the Trustees as to whether the policy should be continued of coming to Parliament year after year for money to maintain buildings for storing articles which in 999 cases out of 1,00 will never be required at any time for any purpose.

§ Mr. LANSBURY
This it a matter which could not be settled by the Office of Works solely; it is one which would have to be settled by the House itself. if the House thinks we have gone too far in making this provision, then the hon. Gentleman must move to reduce the Vote and not let us have the money. That is not proposed to-night. I can only promise that I will make some inquiry into the matter and see whether the Trustees think that we have reached the limit. A very serious and difficult decision is involved in determining whether we are going to give up leaving behind us these memorials of this partcular literature of our time. I do not think I ought to be asked to determine that matter.
With regard to the Geological Museum: This building it to replace the existing museum in Je-[...]myn Street, which will ultimately rever[...] to the Commissioners of Crown Lands. There is no connection between this scheme and the later item, No. 8, in the Estimates, for improvements in the Department of Geology in the Natural History Museum. Then I was asked about the Froude tank. That is required fox testing ship models. The delay in carrying out these tests is seriously prejudicing our ability to help the shipbuilding inJustry. Fees are charged for these tests in order to cover as far as possible the actual running costs. This is the second one which is being erected, and I believe it will meet all requirements. I hope the Committee will now be kind enough to give us the Vote.