§ Any regulations that may be prescribed for the carrying on of any savings bank established by a local authority under the powers of any Act passed or to be passed may apply to such bank with or without modification all or any of the provisions contained in this Act.—[Mr. A. V. Alexander.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERI beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
I do not desire to take up a great deal of the time of the House on this matter, but there is a very strong feeling in the minds of the local authorities concerned that unless a Clause of this kind be added to the Bill, the future position of local authorities who may desire to develop 2366 municipal banking will be seriously prejudiced. The Bill which is now having its passage through this House is very largely the result of the recommendations made by the Treasury Committee on Municipal Savings Banks, and it is quite clear to me when I study paragraphs 142 to 144 of the Report of that Treasury Committee on Municipal Savings Banks that they were very desirous that certain provisions with regard to the trustee savings banks should be strengthened, not only, of course, with the very desirable object of assisting the trustee savings banks, but in order to make it far more difficult for municipal banks to be developed later on. At any rate, that is the feeling which is very strongly held by the Birmingham officials who have had such a very successful experience in municipal banking during the last eight or nine years. Without elaborating the case at any great length, it is felt—I was present at a meeting the other day when this view was adopted unanimously by a very large number of delegates, including the Association of Municipal Corporations—that if the Government will include a Clause of this kind in the Bill it will then protect, not fully but to a limited extent, the right of municipalities who may be successful later on in obtaining powers to engage in municipal banking and, indeed, might give a right to existing banks like the one at Birmingham to make regulations in connection with their banks which they may desire to bring into harmony with some portions of the Bill which is now passing through this House. I hope that from that point of view the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will see his way to accept this Clause which is suggested directly by the municipal corporations themselves.
§ Mr. PARKINSONI beg to second the Motion.
§ The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Arthur Michael Samuel)I followed the arguments of the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) and it seems to me that the proposed new Clause deals with two hypothetical contingencies. It asks that the provisions of this Bill may apply to a municipal savings bank in two cases, (1) where the bank has been established under an Act already passed and (2) if a bank 2367 should be established under an Act to be passed. Let me deal first with the argument as to a bank already established under an existing Act of Parliament. The only Act which has been passed dealing with a municipal bank is the Birmingham Corporation Act, 1919. If the hon. Member refers to that Act he will find that it provides that the Birmingham Bank shall be carried on in accordance with regulations prescribed by the Treasury. That Act provides that the Treasury shall approve or prescribe Regulations in respect of the Birmingham Bank, and the Act also provides that those Regulations may apply to the Birmingham Bank, with or without modification, any of the provisions in the Acts relating to savings banks. This Bill, when it becomes an Act, could be applied to the Birmingham Savings Bank. Therefore, so far as the first part of the new Clause is concerned, it is unnecessary, because the law now is the same as the new Clause seeks to make it.
§ Mr. ALEXANDERHas the Financial Secretary taken advice on that point, because that is not the view expressed by the advisers of the Birmingham Bank, so far as I understand.
§ Mr. SAMUELThat is the advice given to me by my skilled staff.
§ Mr. MAXTONCannot the Financial Secretary exercise his own intelligence?
§ Mr. SAMUELI should not like to put my intelligence on a matter of this kind against that of people who have been engaged in this work for years. I accept their advice.
§ Mr. MAXTONAre we to have this House run by the experts?
§ Mr. SAMUELThe second part of the new Clause is only permissive in effect, and it assumes an hypothesis. It is to apply to any bank or banks which may be established under an Act to be passed, that is, to a bank not actually in existence but one which may be established under an Act which may be passed in the future. Therefore, the new Clause rests upon two hypothetical contingencies. It is a reasonable and old-established custom of this House to await such Acts as may be passed and to see 2368 their provisions before we pledge ourselves to carry out certain things under those Acts. There is a further defect in the new Clause. It gives power to apply certain provisions. What provisions? So far as I understand it, only the provisions of the present Bill. The proposer and the seconder have entirely overlooked the muddle that would arise if the new Clause were put into operation. They have overlooked the necessity of providing for a mass of other savings bank legislation, which it would be necessary to apply. For these reasons, I cannot accept the new Clause.
§ Question, "That the Clause be read a Second time," put, and negatived.