HC Deb 08 March 1929 vol 226 cc753-7

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Mr. TINKER

This Clause states that reduced pensions will be given in special cases. The special cases are those in which it is impracticable to find appropriate employment in the public service, or when a man has not completed 10 years' service or has not attained the age of 60 years. In such circumstances, a reduced pension can be granted. I am not objecting to that, but I want to take the opportunity of pointing out that this proposal could very well be applied in other directions. I refer in particular to what is called the Industrial Transference Board and the mining industry. That Board found that there were 130,000 persons between the ages of 60 and 65 who were out of work, and many more between the ages of 51 and 65. It is not likely that any of these men will get back into the industry. My point is that if the Government can make special arrangements for the Diplomatic Services, it is time they considered extending those arrangements in other directions. I know a case where the employers are now asking for men between the ages of 23 and 39.

The CHAIRMAN

It is not quite clear how the hon. Member connects his argument with Clause 3 of the Bill. If he can make a connection. I should be glad to hear of it.

Mr. TINKER

This is public money. The State will be involved in an expenditure of from £5,000 to £6,000. The people to whom I am referring will have to pay this money, and, in doing so, they have a right to compare their own case with that of the people who draw these pensions.

The CHAIRMAN

This Clause gives "power to grant a reduced pension under the Superannuation Acts in special cases." If the hon. Member says that this power ought to be applied to others, he is entitled to make the point, but he cannot go into all the details of these other matters.

Mr. TINKER

The Bill confers upon certain people, Governors in the Dominions, a pension. This Clause states that a reduced pension can be given in special circumstances. My point is that if under special circumstances, outside the terms laid down in the other Clauses, reduced pensions can be given, they ought to be given to other people where employment is not found for them. I claim that consideration ought to be given to these other people.

The CHAIRMAN

I think the hon. Member's argument is too wide to come within the terms of this Clause. This Clause only applies to persons within the public service who are not entitled to pensions at all by right, and it allows a special, reduced pension to be given in special cases. The hon. Member can say generally—though it would be more appropriate on Second Beading or Third Reading—that other deserving classes should also be dealt with, but, of course, that could not possibly be done under this Bill, and I think it is rather farfetched to introduce it in a discussion on Clause 3.

Mr. TINKER

Do you think, Sir, that it would be better to deal with it on the Third Reading of the Bill?

The CHAIRMAN

I think it would be a more likely opportunity, but, of course, I cannot say what view Mr. Speaker may take even then. I am clear, however, that the matter cannot be raised now.

Mr. TINKER

Then I would, in conclusion, merely ask the Secretary of State to explain what is meant by the provision in reference to "unhealthy places." I would also point out to him that there are many analogous cases in connection with other occupations where people, in circumstances far worse than those of Governors of Dominions, receive no pensions at all.

Mr. KELLY

I would like the right hon. Gentleman also to explain why the period of ten years has been fixed. I find some difficulty in appreciating why it should be mentioned in this Clause. Has the right hon. Gentleman particular people in his mind or particular positions which are occupied at this time? Further, why is it that these Governors are having this special consideration extended to them while other people who come under the Superannuation Acts are left out of all consideration by the Government? As an illustration I may-mention one set of men employed in the Enemy Debts Department for a period of more than seven years who come under the Superannuation Acts, but who have not received a gratuity. Nothing is being done to give any consideration to those people for the service which they have rendered, but special consideration is being given to those who have been Governors or have occupied any of the other positions included in this Bill.

The CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member is referring to a case which comes under another Department, and I do not think the right hon. Gentleman could properly deal with that case.

Mr. KELLY

I only use it as an illustration. There are people in the right hon. Gentleman's own Department in the same position. I mentioned this because it was a recent case.

The CHAIRMAN

If it referred to people who were in the right hon. Gentleman's own Department, it might be in order.

The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Amery)

The position is that ten years has always been the qualifying period in regard to any Governor's pension, and Lord Buxton's Committee did not propose to abolish that qualifying period. On the other hand, it did come to the conclusion that there might very well be cases—as there have been cases in the past—in which it would be very difficult for the Secretary of State to offer a Governor another appointment to enable him to qualify under the ten years' rule. The Governor in question may not be suitable for any one of the two or three vacancies which may be open at the time, and these may be the only vacancies open for some years. Therefore the alternative in the past has been for the Secretary of State in making appointments to very important positions like senior governorships to appoint either someone who really was not fully qualified for the post, or else to inflict the hardship of getting no pension at all on some very deserving person who might have considerable Colonial service behind him, but only had five or six years' service as Governor.

There is one particular case in the light of which this provision has been antedated so as to operate from 1922. One Governor in West Africa was retired in 1922 after very meritorious service in the Colonial Service. There was no other governorship for which he was entirely suitable, and he had not reached the age of 60. To this day that officer has drawn no pension at all for his Governor's service. His pension only relates to such previous service as he had in the Civil Service, and, in fact, he is very much a loser as compared with what he would have drawn, if he had not been promoted to this governorship and if he had, instead, served five or six years longer in the Civil Service. As regards the point about "unhealthy places" it merely refers to the fact that, in respect of ordinary civil service, there are certain increments or abbreviations of the time which it is necessary to serve for pension purposes which apply in unhealthy colonies, like the West African Colonies and so on. The proviso here is simply to the effect that the reduction contemplated in the earlier part of the Clause should not prevent a retiring Governor getting whatever he would nave been entitled to for his previous Colonial service in an unhealthy climate.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.