§ Mr. KELLYI beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Superannuation Acts, 1834 to 1914.This Bill seeks to remedy a great injustice to those who are in the Civil Service of this country. It is thought by the great bulk of the people of this country that every civil servant is entitled to superannuation when he has finished his service. That is so, as far as a great number of them are concerned, when they remain in this country, but should the Government ask them to render service in the Colonies, the Dominions, or any of the mandated territories, then we find that these employés of the Government are penalised by the loss of the period of years which they may happen to serve in other parts of the world. Cases have arisen where men just after the Armistice were sent out by the Food Control Department of that time to the Continent of Europe, and they were compelled either to lose the period that they were away from this country in the service of the Government in counting towards superannuation, or they had to pay an amount of money equal to 12½ per cent. of their wages. Again, we had the instance of the men who were sent out by the Admiralty to the Australian dockyards, and the whole period they were away, some five years, was taken off the period of years counted for superannuation. It is to remedy that, 217 that I am asking leave to introduce this Measure, so that, in the event of a civil servant being transferred, probably temporarily, to the service of a Dominion Government, a Crown Colony, or any territory in respect of which a mandate is being exercised by the Government, that period shall count for the purpose of superannuation.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI am afraid I cannot allow the hon. Member to move that leave be given to bring in this Bill. Inasmuch as it provides for larger pensions than those to which those affected are entitled under the existing law, or provides pensions for those who otherwise would not get them, it would be a charge on the Revenue.
§ Mr. KELLYI am quite willing that this may be examined, though the Bill I am putting forward would not give a larger pension. It would enable civil servants to count the period so as to give them the pension which they believed they would have, and which they were promised when they entered the service of His Majesty's Government. It would not give them a larger pension.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe only effect of the Bill would be that any civil servant who was employed overseas would be entitled to a pension to which he would not be entitled now for the period so served.
§ Mr. TOWNENDThe point is that if a member of the Civil Service were to be called upon at any time during his service under the Government to leave this country for a period of five years, those five years should rank for superannuation when the superannuation age was reached. For instance, a person who now enters the service at the age of 15, at the end of 45 years, that is, on reaching the age of 60, is entitled to a pension. If, however, he had to go abroad at the instance of the Government, say between the ages of 30 and 40, those 10 years would not rank for superannuation. He would not, therefore, receive the maximum of his pension, to which ordinarily he would be entitled at 60, until he had made up those 10 years spent abroad, which would make him 70.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat is exactly what I said. The man would be entitled to a larger pension than that to which he would otherwise be entitled. I am afraid I cannot allow the Bill to proceed further.
§ Mr. R. MORRISONIs it not a fact that the Bill just introduced and read the First time would impose a very large charge upon the Exchequer?
§ Mr. SPEAKERNo, the effect of the Bill which the hon. and gallant Member, by leave of the House, has brought in, would affect the Insurance Fund. It would not be a direct charge upon the State.
§ Mr. KELLYI submit that this Bill would not affect the State in the sense that if a man had not been sent to render service in the Colonies, and had remained at home, the whole of that time would have ranked for pension, and the fact that he is rendering service in another part of the world than in his dockyard or the War Department, certainly is not putting a greater charge upon the Exchequer than was expected when the men entered the Service.
§ Mr. SPEAKERIt is the question of the exact operation of the Bill if it became an Act of Parliament. Probably he would be entitled to a larger pension if the Bill passed.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI understand that the objection to my hon. Friend bringing in this Bill is that it might entail an extra charge upon the Exchequer. May I point to a recent precedent, namely, the Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for Wallsend (Miss Bondfield) to provide boots for necessitous school children. I believe your ruling was that it could not be proceeded with further than the Second Reading, for example, unless a Financial Resolution were passed, and that that was the Government's affair. May I put it to you that if this Bill passes the First Reading now, the Government could then be approached to see if a Financial Resolution could be moved, and that that would safeguard the Exchequer?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI could not allow a private Member to bring in a Bill which increases the charge on the Exchequer.
§ Mr. THURTLEOn that point of Order. May I submit to you an analogy of last year, when a Bill was passed conferring on teachers who served abroad the same rights which this Bill seeks to establish for civil servants, and on that occasion there was no Money Resolution?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI cannot be called upon at the moment to deal with the question to which the hon. Member refers. I have now to deal with the Bill before the House, and I could not accept a Bill which would have the effect to which I have referred.