CLAUSE 9.—(Election of reconstituted county councils). (Hansard, 5 March 1929)

§ Sir J. GILMOUR
I beg to move, in page 14, line 3, at the end, to insert the words: Provided that any reference in any Act to a triennial election of county councillors shall be deemed not to include a reference to the first election of members of the reconstituted county council to be held in pursuance of this Sub-section. County council elections have always been held triennally, and it is proposed under this Bill that they shall continue to be so held. The last county council elections were held in 1926, and the next county council election will he held in 1929; that is, the new county council election will he held in 1929, and the one following that in 1932, and so on. There are certain Acts which lay down that where a triennial election of a county council takes place these Acts apply and there is the particular problem of the Temperance (Scotland) Act which has a proviso to that effect. We have consulted with those in Scotland who are concerned in this matter both pro and con, and it is clear they think it is undesirable that the 1929 election should be counted as a triennial election for this purpose, and to avoid the possibility of this taking place I am moving this Amendment. There is agreement on the part of the parties concerned, and I hope the House will accept it.

§ Mr. BARR
I just wish in a word to thank the Government for this arrangement. I speak particularly on behalf of the Scottish Temperance Alliance, but I am glad to know that other bodies are equally agreed, and it will greatly simplify procedure and prevent what might have been two elections coming one year after another, and it will give a matter of four years, I take it, until the forces rally together again.

§ Mr. SPEAKER
The Member for Midlothian and Peebles (Mr. Westwood) has an Amendment on the Paper—in page 14, line 16, after the word "any," to insert the words "large or"—which is covered by a following Amendment in the name of the Secretary of State for Scotland.

§ Sir J. GILMOUR
I beg to move, In page 14, line 16, to leave out the word "small." 342 This Amendment and the following Amendment—in page 14, line 17, after the word "county," to insert the words "for any purpose"—are put down to carry out the promise made during the Committee stage of the Bill, and they provide that any person who is an elector resident within the county should be eligible for election on the county council.

§ Mr. JOHNSTON
Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us exactly what he means by the words "for any other purpose" after "county"?

§ The LORD ADVOCATE
That is to cover both large burghs and small ones.

§ Mr. JOHNSTON
You could put them simply "or large burgh." I could understand that, but to say "any burgh included within the county for any purpose" seems to me to be extraordinary phraseology, and I should like to be very clear that there is no other purpose or possibility covered by these words. If the purpose, as the Lord Advocate says, is to bring in simply small burghs, why not say so?

§ The LORD ADVOCATE
There are certain large burghs which are not included in the county for certain purposes, and some large burghs which are included for some purposes. Therefore, to include those will be wrong.

§ Mr. JOHNSTON
That makes it worse. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman has moved to take out the word "small," in other words, it is simply to be voted at an election for town councils for any burgh included in the county. What is the idea of "for any purpose "?

§ The LORD ADVOCATE
I will try to make it clear again. Every small burgh is within the county for certain purposes. Every large burgh is not included for the purpose of county council business. We do not want to include those. Therefore, we have to put in the phrase included within the county for any purpose. If they are not "included for any purpose," we do not want to include them here.

§ Mr. JOHNSTON
The Amendment is to leave out the word "small." Therefore, the words that remain are any burgh included within the county.

§ The LORD ADVOCATE
That is so.

§ Mr. JOHNSTON
The Clause then reads: election of town councillors of any burgh included within the county.

§ Mr. JOHNSTON
You have got a burgh "included within the county." That is sufficient definition. If the burgh were not included within the county, it would not come within the scope of this Clause.

§ The LORD ADVOCATE
I am very anxious to clear away any misunderstanding. There are certain burghs which are not included within the county, but, if I may use the term, they are deemed to be included within the county for particular purposes. They are large burghs. There are other large burghs which are not so deemed to be or are not made part of the county. What we want to do is to bring into this qualification Clause the former ones, the large burghs that are included for some purpose within the county. Equally we want to leave out of the qualifications Clause the large burghs that are not so included.

§ Mr. WESTWOOD
I am afraid the Lord Advocate has not made himself clear.

§ The LORD ADVOCATE
I cannot do any better.

§ Mr. WESTWOOD
I am not blaming the right hon. Gentleman. There are three types of burghs referred to in the Bill. There is the small burgh, there is the large burgh and there is the county city burgh. If I understand the matter aright, the only ones that will be excluded, the only ratepayers or electors that will be excluded from offering their services in any part of the county will be the ratepayers or electors in the county city burgh, namely, those of Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Glasgow and Dundee. I did not move earlier to-day an Amendment which stood in my name as I thought that the words of the Government would concede all that had been argued before on the Committee stage. That was the right of any individual living in a large burgh to be in a position to offer his services directly to the 344 electors in any part of the county. In he large burghs the ratepayers were being called upon to pay their full share in connection with education, and unless provision was made for them to offer their services and to give the electors in the landward areas a chance of selecting them, they were placed at a great disadvantage in comparison with the situation at the present time.
Under the existing law, even a person who is not a ratepayer can offer his or her services to the electors for education authority purposes. If the Lord Advocate suggests that any large burghs are excluded that does not meet the claim that was made, nor the promise that was made during the Committee stage of the Bill. No one made the claim that those not paying rates, or those who were not electors in connection with any particular area—where they had no Hay in the county administration—should have the right to offer their services. But I understand that under the proposal which we are now discussing, if this word "small" is omitted and if the next Amendment to insert the words "for any purpose" is carried, there will be a third Amendment to leave out the words "small burgh but excluding any large burgh" and to insert "such burgh as aforesaid." If these Amendments are carried, I understand it will be made quite clear that the elector or ratepayer in any large burgh will have the right to offer his or her services, and the landward area electors will have the right to elect him or her on the county council.

§ The LORD ADVOCATE
The hon. Member is wrong in assuming that the expression "large burghs" excludes the burghs which he has mentioned. The expression includes every burgh, whether it is a county of a city or not, having over 20,000 inhabitants.

§ Mr. E. BROWN
And Arbroath.

§ The LORD ADVOCATE
I think that what the hon. Members opposite desire is covered by this Clause. Let me put it in another way. Their desire is that residents in every large burgh which sends representatives to the county council for any purpose is to be qualified for representation as under this Clause. That end is secured by the Clause.