HC Deb 17 July 1929 vol 230 cc444-51

I beg to move, That the proceedings on Government Business this day and on any Private Business set down for consideration at half-past Seven of the clock this evening, by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means, be exempted from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House) and, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 8, any such Private Business may be taken after half-past Nine of the clock. I am very sorry to have to move this Resolution, but I want to assure the House that the Resolution sounds much more formidable than my intention is. The first part provides that the Eleven o'clock Rule shall be suspended for Government business. It is not our intention to have a late siding upon that. If hon. Members will look at the Order Paper they will find that the second, third and fourth Orders are more or less consequential upon Resolutions that have been passed by the House after very considerable discussion. What we think is that if a matter of only 10 minutes or so stood between the House and the giving of effect to these Bills, it would be a great pity to miss their passage by such a very small margin of time. The suspension of the Eleven o'clock Rule means nothing but that a very short and very reasonable time should be taken in order to get these things advanced. With reference to the other part of the Resolution, it is, as all Members know, to enable a second private Bill to be brought before the House. New Members are not aware, perhaps, of the provisions of Standing Order No. 8. The germane provision is that no opposed private business other than that then under consideration shall be taken after 9.30 p.m. There are two private business Bills down to-day, the London County Council (Co-ordination of Passenger Traffic) Bill and the London Electric Railway Companies (Co-ordination of Passenger Traffic) Bill. I think it would be for the convenience of the House if both the Bills could be settled to-night The Debote on the first Bill is very likely to last beyond the prescribed time, and that means that it would be impossible to move the second Bill. That is the only purpose of the Resolution.


I did not interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but I am bound to point out that this Resolution is in two parts, and the first part is not debatable.


On a point of Order. Is it in order to put two propositions in one Resolution, one of which is debatable and the other is not, under the Rules of the House?


The same sort of Motion has been put down on many other occasions, but has frequently been divided and put as two separate questions upon a desire being expressed that that should be done.


We on this side of the House are in a little difficulty. We have no objection to the suspension of the Eleven o'clock Rule in so far as Private Business is concerned, but we do object to the suspension for Government business, because we think it is a little early in the Session, and considering how helpful we have been to the Government. We seek guidance from you, Mr. Speaker, as to how we should express our view.


Is it not possible to put the Motion in two parts?


It is quite possible. If this is a request that the Motion be moved in two parts, of course I should accept it, but that does not get over the difficulty of the first half of the Motion not being debatable.


May we ask the Government to put the Motion in two parts? We do not want to debate it, of course. We wish to have part of the Motion, but not the other part, and we are obviously put in a very great difficulty if the Government do not move it in two parts, as we have often done at the wish of hon. and right hon. Members opposite.


If I am asked to divide it into two parts, I will do so.

Question put, That the proceedings on Government Business this day and on any Private Business set down for consideration at half-past Seven of the clock this evening, by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means, be exempted from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House),

Mr. E. BROWN rose


Members did not declare the Question carried, and I ordered the Lobby to be cleared; but if hon. Members do not agree when a Question is put, they should challenge it more emphatically.

Sir W. LANE MITCHELL (Seated and covered)

On a point of Order. Were the two Motions not put together?


The Motion is divided into two parts. I put the first down to the words "Sittings of the House."


(Seated and covered): I would point out that the object of dividing the Motion was to decide the question whether Government business should be continued after Eleven o'clock, separately from the question whether exemption should be given to Private Business. The case would be met if the Motion were put in this way: That the proceedings on Government Business this day be exempted from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House). Then the second Question would relate to Private Business only.


The second Motion then would begin: That the proceedings on any Private Business set down for consideration at half-past Seven of the clock this evening, by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means, be exempted from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and so on.


The point I want to raise—[HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down!" and "Hat!"] The Motion has not been put, and therefore I can stand. The question I want to put, Mr. Speaker, is that when you first put the Motion you asked for the Ayes and Noes and there were no Noes. Therefore, in my opinion at least, the Motion was carried.

Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN (Seated and covered)

May I say that I challenged the Question when you put it the first time. Our desire is to divide that part of the Motion which deals with Government Business from that part which deals with Private Business. We desire to support the part which deals with Private Business and to vote against that part—and that part only—which deals with Government Business. The question I submit to you is whether you can put the Motion in so far as it relates to Government Business separately from the Motion in so far as it relates to Private Business.


I want to ask—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hat!" and "Order!"] There is no occasion for a hat, as the Motion has not been put. I want to ask you, Mr. Speaker—[Interruption.] Do I understand you wish me to resume my seat? [Resuming his seat.] I want to put to you—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hat!"]

Division No. 3.] AYES. [4.4 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Buchanan, G. George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Burgess, F. G. George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.) Gibbins, Joseph
Alpass, J. H. Caine, Derwent Hall- Gillett, George M.
Ammon, Charles George Cameron, A. G. Glassey, A. E.
Angell, Norman Cape, Thomas Gossling, A. G.
Arnott, John Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Gould, F.
Attlee, Clement Richard Charleton, H. C. Granville, E.
Ayles, Walter Chater, Daniel Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)
Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Church, Major A. G. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Baker, Walter (Bristol, E.) Clarke, J. S. Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro'W.)
Barnes, Alfred John Climle, R. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Barr, James Cluse, W. S. Grundy, Thomas W.
Batey, Joseph Cocks, Frederick Seymour Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) Compton, Joseph Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Bellamy, Albert Cove, William G. Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.)
Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Cowan, D. M. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)
Bennett, Captain E. N. (Cardiff, Central) Daggar, George Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)
Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Dalton, Hugh Harbord, A.
Benson, G. Day, Harry Hardie, George D.
Bentham, Dr. Ethel Denman, Hon. R. D. Harris, Percy A.
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Dickson, T. Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Ede, James Chuter Haycock, A. W.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Edge, Sir William Hayes, John Henry
Broad, Francis Alfred Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)
Brockway, A. Fenner Egan, W. H. Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)
Brooke, W. Eimley, Viscount Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)
Brothers, M. England, Colonel A. Herriotts, J.
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.) Hirst, G. H. (York, W. R., Wentworth)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Freeman, Peter Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Hoffman, P. C.

I have come to the conclusion that a great fuss is being made about nothing, and that the best thing to do is to ignore the Question as first put and the Division that was called, so the hon. Member can stand without a hat.


I am glad you have shown hon. Members on the other side that I know points of Order, and how to conduct myself in this House. I want to ask you whether it is not the case that when you put the Question there was a very feeble response on the other side, and that you accepted the Motion on the Paper? Therefore, the proceedings of the last 20 minutes have been entirely out of order, because the Motion on the Paper was carried.


I was asked to divide the Motion in two, which I did in the ordinary way, but I found there was a misunderstanding. Because of this misunderstanding, I made a mistake, and, when I have made a mistake, I always acknowledge it.

Question put, That the proceedings on Government Business this day be exempted from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House).

The House divided: Aves, 269; Noes, 155.

Hopkin, Daniel Morris, Rhys Hopkins Sitch, Charles H.
Horrabin, J. F. Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)
Hunter, Dr. Joseph Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Mort, D. L. Smith, Rennle (Penistone)
Isaacs, George Moses, J. J. H. Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
John, William (Rhondda, West) Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Snell, Harry
Johnston, Thomas Muff, G. Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)
Jones, F. Llewellyn (Flint) Murnin, Hugh Sorensen, R.
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Noel Baker, P. J. Stamford, Thomas W.
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Oldfield, J. R. Stephen, Campbell
Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Strachey, E. J. St. Loe
Kelly, W. T. Owen, H. F. (Hereford) Strauss, G. R.
Kennedy, Thomas Palin, John Henry Sutton, J. E.
Kenwortny, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Paling, Wilfrid Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
Kinley, J. Palmer, E. T. Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.)
Kirkwood, D. Perry, S. F. Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)
Knight, Holford Peters, Dr. Sidney John Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Thurtle, Ernest
Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Phillips, Dr. Marlon Tillett, Ben
Lathan, G. Picton-Turberville, E. Tinker, John Joseph
Law, Albert (Bolton) Pole, Major D. G. Toole, Joseph
Law, A. (Rosendale) Ponsonby, Arthur Tout, W. J.
Lawrence, Susan Potts, John S. Townend, A. E.
Lawson, John James Pybus, Percy John Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Quibell, D. F. K. Vaughan, D. J.
Leach, W. Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Viant, S. P.
Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Rathbone, Eleanor Walkden, A. G.
Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Raynes, W. R. Walker, J.
Lees, J. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le Spring) Wallhead, Richard C.
Lloyd, C. Ellis Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Watkins, F. C.
Longbottom, A. W. Ritson, J. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Longden, F. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Cot. D. (Rhondda)
Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford) Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Lunn, William Romerll, H. G. Wellock, Wilfred
Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Rosbotham, D. S. T. Welsh, James (Paisley)
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Rowson, Guy Westwood, Joseph
MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Salter, Dr. Alfred Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
MacNeill-Weir, L. Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) White, H. G.
McElwee, A. Sanders, W. S. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)
McEntee, V. L. Sandham, E. Whiteley, William (Blaydon)
Mackinder, W. Sawyer, G. F. Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Scott, James Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
McShane, John James Scurr, John Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Sexton, James Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Mander, Geoffrey le M. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Wilson, J. (Oldham)
Mansfield, W. Shaw, R. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
March, S. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Winterton, G. E.(Leicester, Loughb'gh)
Markham, S. F. Sherwood, G. H. Wise, E. F.
Mathers, George Shield, George William Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)
Matters, L. W. Shiels, Dr. Drummond Wright, W. (Rutherglen)
Middleton, G. Shinwell, E. Young, R. S. (Islington, North)
Millar, J. D. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Mills, J. E. Simmons, C. J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES
Montague, Frederick Simon, E. D.(Manch'ter, Withington) Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. T.
Morgan, Dr. H. B. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Henderson.
Morley, Ralph Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)
Acland-Troyte, Lieut-Colonel Buckingham, Sir H. Croom-Johnson, R. P.
Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles Bullock, Captain Malcolm Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)
Albery, Irving James Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Carver, Major W. H. Dalkeith, Earl of
Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.) Castlestewart, Earl of Davies, Dr. Vernon
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Atholl, Duchess of Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Duckworth, G. A. V.
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Dugdale, Capt. T. L.
Beaumont, M. W. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Edmondson, Major A. J.
Bellairs, Commander Cariyon Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)
Bennett, Sir Albert (Nottingham, C.) Chapman, Sir S. Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Betterton, Sir Henry B. Christie, J. A. Fermoy, Lord
Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Fielden, E. B.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Ford, Sir p. J.
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Conway, Sir W. Martin Forestier-Walker, Sir L.
Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Braithwaite, Major A. N. Cranbourne, Viscount Ganzonl, Sir John
Brass, Captain Sir William Crichton-Stuart, Lord c. Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Buchan, John Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Glyn, Major R. G. C.
Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)
Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Meller, R. J. Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Smithers, Waldron
Gritten, W. G. Howard Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)
Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Morden, Col. W. Grant Stewart, W. J. (Belfast, South)
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Stuart, J. C. (Moray and Nairn)
Hartington, Marquess of Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.
Haslam, Henry C. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Titchfleld, Major the Marquess of
Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Muirhead, J. A. Todd, Capt. A. J.
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Train, J.
Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar.& Wh'by) Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Turton, Robert Hugh
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon
Illffe, Sir Edward M. Penny, Sir George Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Warrender, Sir Victor
Lane Fox, Rt. Hon. George R. Power, Sir John Cecil Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Pownall, Sir Assheton Wells, Sydney R.
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Purbrick, R. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Leighton, Major B. E. P. Ramsbotham, H. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Rawson, Sir Cooper Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Llewellin, Major J. J. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Withers, Sir John James
Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Ross, Major Ronald D. Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount
Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Lymington, Viscount Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Macdonaid, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Salmon, Major I. Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavist'k)
Macquisten, F. A. Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart
Makins, Brigadier-General E. Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Margesson, Captain H. D. Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Major Sir George Hennessy and
Marjoribanks, E. C. Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfast) Sir Frederick Thomson.

Ordered, That the proceedings on any Private Business set down for consideration at half-past Seven of the clock this evening, by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means, be exempted from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House) and, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 8, any such Private Business may he taken after half-past Nine of the clock."—[The Prime Minister.]