NEW CLAUSE.—(Power of Minister to pay council's contributions to voluntary associations out of sums payable as General Exchequer Grant.) (Hansard, 30 January 1929)

§ Sir K. WOOD
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
This is another new Clause which deals with contributions to voluntary associa- 1046 tions, and it is introduced to meet the criticism that a voluntary association covering the whole of the country would be obliged to collect small sums from a large number of counties and county boroughs. This Clause empowers the Minister, if application is made to him by the counties and county boroughs concerned, to make one payment on behalf of the councils to the associations concerned with such services as maternity and child welfare, lunacy, mental deficiency and the welfare of the blind out of the sums payable as the general Exchequer grants to those county or county borough councils.

§ Mr. KELLY
The other evening we were discussing societies more particularly concerned with propaganda in relation to venereal disease. I understood that consideration was to be given to the suggestion to introduce the name of the body dealing with that question.

§ Sir K. WOOD
The phrase "public health services" covers that point. Earlier in the Debate, when dealing with the definition of public health services, it was stated that so far as venereal disease was concerned, there was no doubt that the association referred to would be able to have the advantage of this Bill.

§ Mr. LONGBOTTOM
I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman a further question. In the Blind Persons Act, 1920, it is laid down that local authorities may do certain things on behalf of the blind, but my experience is that many local authorities are shelving their responsibility because the Act is not compulsorily upon them, and are leaving a great deal of the welfare work in connection with the blind to voluntary organisations. Is there anything in this Clause to prevent either a county council or a county borough council from making application to the Minister of Health asking him to pay to societies for the welfare of the blind a certain amount per annum, so that the local authority would thus escape scot free from their obligation?

§ Sir K. WOOD
No, Sir, this Clause does not deal with that point. It deals with cases in which the local authorities concerned are willing to contribute to the work of various associations, and provides that, instead of the associations concerned having to collect small sums from each authority, the Minister shall fee empowered to make a deduction from the appropriate grant and pay the amount direct to the association.

§ Mr. T. WILLIAMS
Would not this Clause be rather an encouragement to delinquent local authorities to get rid of their real responsibilities by saddling themon to a voluntary organisation? Is it not the case that in many counties, as my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Mr. Longbottom) has said, local authorities desire to maintain what they conceive to be the best system, that is to say, a voluntary system, for certain services. My hon. Friend has suggested, and I think truly, that in that case a council would prefer to make a nice annual contribution of, say, £500 to a voluntary scheme, while their real responsibility, if they undertook the work themselves, might very well cost them £3,000. This method of working through voluntary 1048 agencies may be, and frequently is, much more costly than a direct service would be if the county or borough council carried on the service themselves, and I am not sure whether this encouragement to a county or county borough to neglect the provision of these services themselves in favour of voluntary organisations is the best and most economical system.

§ Sir K. WOOD
The hon. Member is forgetting the long discussion that we had yesterday on Clause 86. I will not say whether I agree with it or not, but it is true that that criticism may be put forward with regard to the present arrangement, and it may also be put forward in regard to the percentage grant system; but under Clause 86, as amended yesterday, in conjunction with this Clause, we get this position. The services to which the hon. Member referred have to be undertaken by the authorities, and the Minister has power under Clause 86 to see that they maintain a reasonable standard of efficiency and progress. In considering that question he will also consider the work of voluntary associations of this kind, and he will then sec whether, on the one hand, the voluntary associations are doing a certain amount of work, whether, on the other hand, the local authorities are doing a certain amount, and whether by means of both a reasonable standard of efficiency and progress is being maintained. That will be possible under the new system, and, of course, this present Clause does not take anything away from the provisions of Clause 86 and the power which has been given to the Minister in that connection.

Dr. VERNON DAVIES
Would my right hon. Friend say whether it is necessary for the county to make application to the Minister every year, or whether they can do so for a fixed period, or until notice of cancellation?

§ Sir K. WOOD
I will consider what is the best arrangement. As my right hon. Friend stated the other day, it is his intention, when the Act comes into operation, to address a general communication or communications to the local authorities concerning it, and we shall in that communication, or one of them, direct attention to this Clause. I have no doubt also that in the interval we 1049 shall consult them as to what would be the most suitable arrangement, and what, in the authorities' opinion, the system should be. My hon. Friend, who has given a great deal of time to and taken a great deal of interest in this particular matter, may rest assured that we shall have regard to the best interests of the work concerned, and to giving as much benefit as possible to everyone concerned.