§ "On and after the appointed day a person who has become an inmate of any Poor Law institution for the purpose of obtaining medical or surgical treatment shall not, so long as he continues to require such treatment, be disqualified, on the ground only that he is such an inmate, for receiving or continuing to receive an old age pension under the Old Age Pension Acts, 1908 to 1924, or under the Widows'. Orphans', and Old Ago Contributory Pensions Act, 1923, and accordingly Sub-section (1) of Section 8 of the Old Age Pensions Act, 1919, and paragraph I of the Third Schedule to the Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act, 1925, shall have effect as if the words "during the period 1056 of three months from the date on which he becomes such an inmate if he," were omitted therefrom, and as if after the words "so long" there were inserted the words "as he."—[Sir K. Wood.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ Sir K. WOODI beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
This is a matter that was raised on the Second Reading, and the Clause is directed to securing uniformity as regards the payment of old age pensions between the inmates of a Poor Larw institution and the inmates of a hospital provided by a county council or otherwise, and the brief effect is to provide that, so long as a person who has entered a Poor Law institution for the purpose of receiving medical or surgical treatment continues to require that treatment, he shall not be disqualified, by being an inmate, for the receipt of an old age pension. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb) raised the point on the Second Reading. We shall always remember his very signal contribution to our discussion. My right hon. Friend expressed his intention at the time to deal with the point.
§ Mr. GROVESWill this Clause prevent a board of guardians from appropriating pensions due to the people who enter these institutions?
§ Sir K. WOODThat does not arise on this new Clause.
§ Mr. GROVESYes, it does. In West Ham it is assumed that people who enter these institutions for surgical and medical treatment are not barred from getting their old age pensions, but the fact remains that the guardians take the pensions. This seems to be an appropriate opportunity for the Minister to strengthen the Bill and to provide that it shall be impossible for the appointed guardians of West Ham to appropriate pensions properly paid to people who go into their institutions for surgical or medical treatment.
§ Sir K. WOODWhatever may be the rights or wrongs of the question which has been raised by the hon. Member, it is a matter for general legislation, and does not arise in the course of this scheme. Therefore, I am afraid that I cannot deal with it in connection with this new-Clause.
§ Mr. SIDNEY WEBBI agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the point which has been raised by the hon. Member for Stratford (Mr. Groves) cannot be dealt with in this Clause, but I do not believe that the guardians have any right to appropriate pensions of this kind. If the circumstances mentioned by the hon. Member are true of what happens in West Ham, a question might very well be asked in this House, and the attention of the Minister might be called to the matter. There is probably some misunderstanding. I do not believe that the guardians can legally appropriate an old age pension or a widow's pension, or any payment of that kind. If it has been done, it has been done illegally. On its merits, the new Clause is very satisfactory, except that there is no definition of medical treatment. Take the case of an old woman who goes into the workhouse. She may receive medical treatment and nursing treatment so long as she is in the institution. She may be attended by a medical officer and may be nursed by a skilled nurse all the time. Therefore she is in receipt of medical treatment, and I hope the right hon Gentleman will be prepared to assume that the pension will be payable, not withstanding that the old lady is there for a considerable time, in fact until she dies. The longer she remains there the more medical treatment and more nursing she will receive. In the classical words of the Treasury this may be opening a serious door, but I hope the right hon. Gentleman will concede the point which I have raised.
§ Mr. GROVESMy right hon. Friend the Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb) has suggested that a question might be put in the House. The last question which I put to the Minister of Health elicited the information that there were 117 cases of old age pensioners who had been taken into Poor Law medical institutions within the Union of West Ham, where pensions had been taken by the guardians. I would ask the Committee to realise the position of an old person who is ill and awaiting an immediate operation, and who is subject to a visit from the relieving officer, who commands and demands the old age pension book. That is a case where the book is obtained by intimidation. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to make this new Clause so strong 1058 that no guardians, whether appointed or ordinary guardians, shall have the right to demand an old age pension book from any person who enters an institution for medical or surgical treatment
§ Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.