Mr. W. ADAMSONI beg to move in page 44, line 30, to leave out from the word "thereto" to end of Clause, and to insert instead thereof the words:
at equal intervals of two months, dating from the beginning of each financial year of such county and town council.I hope favourable consideration will be given to this Amendment, which I move for the purpose of trying to lift what the hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary 1494 has described as the rather close hand of the Department. From our previous experience of the Treasury, we are a little suspicious that the close hand of the Department will deal in such a way as will limit the activities of the county and town councils. The insertion of the words proposed would give the county and town councils a freer hand to engage in their activities, with the knowledge that the grants would be available at short intervals.
§ The LORD ADVOCATEThe words in the Clause are the usual words always found in connection with such payments, and are the words in the English Bill. In the White Paper it was promised that the grants would be paid in six instalments during the year, and I hope my right. hon. Friend will be content with the assurance that that is the Government's intention. It is equivalent to what is asked for in the Amendment.
§ Mr. JOHNSTONIn the circumstances could not the Lord Advocate meet us, making it statutory by inserting these words in the Bill? He is perfectly well aware of the difficulties with which many local authorities have been faced. On many occasions they have had to borrow and to pay interest on overdrafts while all the time grants were due to them from the central Exchequer. It is quite possible that in the future some Chancellor of the Exchequer may withhold for months from local authorities money which is due to them. He would be saving the central Exchequer's money and compelling the local authorities to borrow. As the Lord Advocate has said that it is the intention of the Government to pay these monies in instalments at intervals of two months, surely there can be no objection to making that a statutory obligation.
§ The LORD ADVOCATEDifficulties might arise if we laid down a hard and fast rule, because later it might suit the convenience of local authorities to have these payments at other times. I cannot accept the Amendment.
§ Mr. W. M. WATSONI hope the Lord Advocate will agree with us over this Amendment, because I am certain that the Scottish Office have had repeated complaints from county councils regarding the delay in paying grants, par- 1495 titularly those for housing and roads. On occasions there have been serious delays, and local authorities have had to borrow money at a high rate of interest. It is one thing to say that it is the intention of the Government to pay six times a year, but if this were made an obligation by statute local authorities would know where they were; they would know the money would be coming every two months.
§ Sir R. HAMILTONI am quite aware that the words in the Clause are the ordinary words used, but I would like to add my experience to what has been already said. My local authority are constantly complaining of the expense to which they are put in having to go to the bank and pay interest on an overdraft through not being able to get the grants to which they are entitled. I am glad this Amendment has been moved, arid that we have had an opportunity of voicing the experience of local authorities; and even if the Amendment be not pressed to a Division, I hope it will bring the matter to the attention of the Treasury and impress upon them the
§ difficulties, in particular, of the small local authorities.
Mr. ADAMSONI am disappointed with the reply of the Lord Advocate. It seems there is very little between us, because he has pointed out that the White Paper promises that the money will be paid in six instalments, and therefore I do not see why he cannot accept the terms of my Amendment. Delay in the payment of grants has been a great and contiual source of worry to local authorities. In consequence of those delays they have had to pay substantial amounts as interest on overdrafts, charges which have had a certain effect in increasing the burden of rates which have to be paid by the people. My Amendment would make certain of removing that difficulty, and I am disappointed that the Lord Advocate cannot accept it. I feel bound to press it to a Division.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 159; Noes, 83.
1497| Division No. 224.] | AYES. | [1.15 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsay,Gainsbro) | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) |
| Albery, Irving James | Dalkeith, Earl of | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M.S. | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Dawson, Sir Philip | Knox, Sir Alfred |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Eden, Captain Anthony | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Edwards, J, Hugh (Accrington) | Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handaw'th) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Looker, Herbert William |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon | Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Fermoy, Lord | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen |
| Berry, Sir George | Ford, Sir P. J. | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Catacart) |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Forestler-Walker, Sir L. | Macintyre, Ian |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Fraser, Captain Ian | McLean, Major A. |
| Brass, Captain W. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Macquisten, F. A. |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Glyn, Major R. G, C. | MacRobert, Alexander M. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter | Margesson, Captain D. |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Grotrlan, H. Brent | Meller, R. J. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Hamilton, Sir George | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hammersley, S. S. | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. H. | Hanbury, C. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Harland, A. | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Harrison, G. J. C. | Moore, Sir Newton J. |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Hartington, Marquess, of | Murchison, Sir Kenneth |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Nelson, Sir Frank |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D, L. (Exeter) |
| Campbell, E. T. | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxt'd, Henley) | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Cecil. Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by) | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Hills, Major John Waller | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Peto, G. (Somerset. Frome) |
| Clayton, G. C. | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Pownall, Sir Assheton |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Preston, Sir Walter (Cheltenham) |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Ramsden, E. |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Couper, J. B. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Hume, Sir G. H. | Ropner, Major L. |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Hunter-Weston. Lt.-Gen. sir Aylmer | Ross, R. D. |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Iveagh, Countess of | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Rye, P. G. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Sandeman, N. Stewart | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Sanders, Sir Robert A. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Sandon, Lord | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser | Wells, S. R. |
| Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. | Templeton, W. P. | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple |
| Savery, S. S. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.) | Tinne, J. A. | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ.,Belf'st.) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of | Womersley, W. J. |
| Smith. R. w. (Aberd'n — Kinc'dine, C.) | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Smith-Carington, Neville W. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. | |
| Smithers, Waldron | Wallace, Captain D. E. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Southby, Commander A. R. J. | Ward, Lt.-Col.A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) | Captain Bowyer and Sir Victor Warrender. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Ammon, Charles George | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Shiels, Dr. Drummond |
| Barnes, A. | Jenkins. W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Barr, J. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Batey, Joseph | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Snell, Harry |
| Bellamy, A. | Kennedy, T. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Lawrence, Susan | Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) |
| Broad, P. A. | Lawson, John James | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Bromley, J. | Lee, F. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Lowth, T. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Buchanan, G. | Lunn, William | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Buxton. Rt. Hon. Noel | Mackinder, W. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Charieton, H. C. | MacLaren, Andrew | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Cluse, W. S. | Malone, C- L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Cove, w. G. | Maxton, James | Westwood, J. |
| Dalton, Hush | Mitchell, B. Rosslyn (Paisley) | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Dunnico, H. | Murnin, H. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Naylor, T. E. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Oliver, George Harold | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Palin, John Henry | Windsor, Walter |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Paling, W. | Wright, W. |
| Hall, P. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Pethick- Lawrence, F. W. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Potts, John S | |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hardle, George D. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W.Bromwich) | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Whiteley. |
| Hayes, John Henry | Scrymaeour, E. |
Question put, and agreed to.