HC Deb 20 February 1929 vol 225 cc1149-63

I beg to move, in page 29, line 4, to leave out the word "Board," and to insert instead thereof the words "Department of Health."

This is a purely drafting Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.


I beg to move, in page 29, to leave out from the word "the," in line 5, to the end, of the Clause, and to insert instead thereof the words: local authority of any area (in this Section referred to as the defaulting authority') have failed to discharge their functions with respect to the provision of a water supply, or of sewers or drains, or with respect to housing, or have failed to discharge any other functions relating to public health, the Department may by order authorise any other local authority to discharge, for such period as the order may prescribe, the functions of the defaulting local authority which that authority have failed to discharge, and any expenses incurred by the other authority in so doing shall be a debt due by the defaulting authority to the other authority. Provided that the defaulting local authority may appeal to the Department against any excessive and unreasonable expenditure of the other authority and the Department if satisfied that there has been excessive and unreasonable expenditure may reduce the sum payable by the defaulting authority to the other authority by such amount as they think proper. (2) Any sum payable by the defaulting authority to the, other authority under this Section in respect of expenses shall be defrayed by the defaulting authority in like manner as if the expenses had been incurred by that authority. (3) Any expenses incurred by the other authority under this Section shall be defrayed in such manner as the order may prescribe. I have to make a personal apology to the Committee on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. Influenza is no respecter of persons, as my friends on the Front Opposition Bench will realise, and my right hon. Friend is prevented by reasons of health from attending the Committee. I am sure that we all hope that we shall see him hack again at an early date.

This Amendment is to meet the point advanced by the Convention of Burghs. In moving it, I would draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that, as it stands on the Paper, there is a small printing slip; the words "excessive or unreasonable expenditure," in line 11, and also in line 12, should be printed "excessive and unreasonable expenditure." The Committee will remember that, in the original White Paper issued by the Minister, it was suggested that certain functions should be taken over by the newly reconstituted county authorities which, on subsequent consideration, were left to the burghal authorities, namely, water, housing and drainage. It was made clear by the Secretary of State at that time that, in respect of some of these functions, notably in connection with water, certain over-riding powers should remain in cases where these important functions were not being properly carried out. In discussing this matter with the representatives of the burghs, Sir Henry Keith acted as spokesman for the burghs, and conceded that it was quite right that, in any case in which these functions were not being properly carried out, they should be carried out by some other authority, and he considered that there should be some sort of inquiry at which these cases should be discussed. The Clause in the Bill gives effect to that proposal. During the Debate on the Second Reading of the Bill, hon. Members in various parts of the House, notably, I think, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson), pointed out that this was a one-sided proposal, in that it did not deal with the corresponding case in a county, and, on considering that, we thought it only reasonable that the Clause should work both ways. The Amendment on the Paper gives effect to that suggestion, so that, if a burgh is in default the functions can be taken over by another local authority, posssibly the county authority, and, if the authority in a county area were in default, the duties of that area might be taken over by another authority, possibly a burgh authority. I think that there will be general agreement because the Amendment carries out Amendments standing in the names of Members of the Opposition parties and also of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ayr Burghs (Lieut.-Colonel Moore).

I shall deal only very briefly with two Amendments to the Amendment suggested by the Government, one in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) to the effect that in respect of any authority failing to discharge its functions the Department shall by order authorise any other local authority to discharge any of those functions of the defaulting authority which that authority has failed to discharge. We think that that would tighten up the Clause to an altogether unworkable extent. I would ask the Committee to note the next Amendment on the Paper in the name of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair), because it goes the other way and weakens the Clause so much that it would equally be unworkable in the opposite sense. The Liberal Amendment suggests that, instead of the word "order," in line 5, there should be inserted the words "agreement with the authorities concerned." Obviously the Clause is only meant to operate where every possible effort has been made to obtain agreement and has failed. We therefore think, on the one side, that the Amendment to be moved from the Labour Benches is too tight, because it would not allow the Department any latitude after inquiry to allow the defaulting authority to put its house in order, and, on the other side, that the Liberal Amendment is too slack. There would be no meaning in the Clause at all. I move the Amendment as it stands on the Order Paper, and I trust the Committee will agree to it.




I think it would be more convenient to get rid of the existing words in order to have the other words before the Committee. Then the discussion will be perfectly in order.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Question proposed, "That those words he there inserted."


I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 5, to leave out the word "may," and to insert instead thereof the word "shall."

We have heard the explanation of the Under-Secretary of State far Scotland. While recognising the importance of the Amendment, I do not think that my colleagues on these benches would be really satisfied if it were not made mandatory. We considered the importance of the word "may" as against the word "shall," and we had before us the argument adduced by the Under-Secretary that there is the possibility that the word "shall" might make the power of the Department too great. After due consideration, we came to the conclusion that it was better that there should be placed upon the Department the obligation to take definite steps in regard to a defaulting authority. Everyone knows that when a local authority defaults on any of these matters the Central Department is never in a hurry to compel it to take the necessary steps to remedy the existing state of affairs. The central authority, as far as our experience goes, is always willing to deal very gently with offenders when they are local authorities. We believe that our Amendment would strengthen the hands of the Central Department in seeing that the services which the local authorities have been called upon to discharge are properly carried out.

The Committee will observe that these are very important services very intimately connected with the health of the people. If under this new organisation of local government in Scotland, there are to be so many of the districts that are not going to obtain proper attention from the county councils in connection with local services, we ought to give the people who are deprived of their powers the opportunity of going to the Department and saying: "You have to do this as our people are suffering, because their housing requirements and other matters are not being properly considered." The Department may say: "Well, we will consult with the other authority and consider the matter." So they may go month after month, even into years, before anything is done. To get the Scottish Office to move at any time is very difficult. For instance, in connection with the application for small landholdings in Scotland it is difficult to get the Scottish Office to make a move.

I believe that if the word "may" is allowed to remain, the Clause will practically become a dead letter. The duty should be placed upon the central department to come in when one section of the community is being penalised owing to the authority over an area defaulting in regard to their duties. The central department should be compelled to take steps. It is not enough in our opinion to say "may" It is quite true, as was pointed out by the Under-Secretary in moving his Amendment, that our friends below the Gangway are of a different opinion and that their Amendment will put a great many difficulties in the way of the Scottish Office taking the necessary steps. Their Amendment would certainly make everything impossible and render the Clause absolutely ineffective. The Clause, with the addition of the Amendment moved by the Under-Secretary, will be ineffective enough, but, if the Liberal Amendment were accepted, it would make it a dead letter altogether. I hope that Members of the Committee will indicate their views in connection with this question. There is much that can be said, I quite admit, in favour of the view advanced from, the Government's Front Bench. I believe, if the Committee will consider all the circumstances, they will realise that it is just as well to put it in the mandatory form by substituting for the word "may" the word "shall."

4.0 p.m.


I am sure we are all sorry that the hon. and gallant Gentleman's chief is not present this afternoon, and we hope it will not be long before he is back in his place. In opposing the Government Amendment. I take rather a different view from that suggested by my hon. Friend. As far as I am concerned, I would rather see the Clause taken out altogether.


I would point out that we are only on the question whether the word shall be "may" or "shall"—whether it is to be mandatory or optional. The general question in the Amendment can be debated later.


I understand we are debating whether the word is to be "may" or "shall," and I have already expressed my view in regard to the whole Clause, because I can still see difficulties whether the word is "may" or "shall." A burgh may be asked to undertake work that ought to have been done by a defaulting county council. It is always the ease that there are no defaults as far as county councils ace concerned. It will be only the small burghs, which are being forced into this county scheme, that will be regarded as defaulting under this Bill. My view is that this is placing in the hands of the county council the power to do things—


The hon. Member's remarks are perfectly relevant to the main Amendment, hut outside the limited point whether the Department may or shall do what is prescribed in the Clause.


I readily bow to your ruling, Mr. Hope, but the ground for discussion is very narrow, and my general feeling is that the matter should have been taken out altogether.

Lieut.-Colonel MOORE

I rise to support the word "may," and also to take this opportunity of thanking the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary for introducing the Amendment. The word "may," to my mind, is far more suitable than the word "shall." We have got too much bureaucracy, as, no doubt, hon. Members opposite would be the first to acknowledge, and why they should be advocates of the word "shall," and thereby further interfere with the duties and functions of the local authorities, I cannot understand. The proposal of the Government far more adequately and properly expresses the attitude of the people generally.


I want to say a few words in favour of the word "shall." The items dealt with in this Clause are of vital importance to the people. It is within the memory of hon. Members present that houses have collapsed with fatal consequences to the inhabitants. It is quite obvious that in such cases the provisions would not be adequate. Drains, water and similar services are also of vital importance to the poor people. I have seen houses in Scotland where no decent man would kennel his dog. There has been a great deal of neglect. The health of the poor people in Scotland is on a much lower standard than that of those who are able to obtain the amenities of life, such as more space and air. Therefore, I do not think that these matters should be left to the discretion of these authorities by introducing the word "may." It should be compulsory, so that there may be a very much higher standard of health than there is at the present time.


The hon. and gallant Member for Ayr Burghs (Lieut.-Colonel Moore) is surely mistaken in his conception of this proposal. It is not at all a question of bureaucracy. Here is a proposal which asks, in effect, that in the event of default, as far as the burgh authority is concerned, some other body should be empowered to step in. The only point is whether the power should be mandatory, or whether it should be left to the Department to come to a decision according to the circumstances, or perhaps not come to a decision at all. That is the only issue involved. If these powers be required, if they be regarded as necessary in circumstances that may arise—I agree that it is entirely hypothetical: one does not know whether these powers will be required or not—but assuming the Government believe that these powers may be required some day, surely the proper thing to do is to make them mandatory; otherwise it is no use asking for powers at all. It is no use talking about defaulting authorities unless you are to use powers of an obligatory character against the defaulting authorities. I cannot understand why the Government boggle over a simple matter of this kind. It is much better to say that the powers are required, and that they are going to insist that these powers shall be put into operation at the proper time.

The LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. William Watson)

I agree that the Amendment is not unimportant. The Committee will observe that, in the first place, the Department have to consider whether there is in the area of a local authority a neglect of one of the three duties referred to here. Take the question of failure to provide a proper water supply. They have got to make up their mind whether there is such a failure before there is a public inquiry. If they are satisfied that there has been a failure, then they have a public inquiry. If they get a verdict, as a result of the public inquiry, confirming the view that there has been a failure, there then arises the question which we are now considering. I suggest that there might be cases where the local authority might be perfectly justified in maintaining for the time that there was no such failure. But imagine a case where the Department say: "You are not giving an adequate water supply, and you can do it with your existing water scheme." The burgh replies: "No; we cannot do it with the existing condition of things. We should have to spend more money and would require your authority for that purpose." The Department order an inquiry, and that inquiry substantiates the Department's view. There is no great blame on the burgh or council for having taken their view and maintained it, but they are found to be wrong. Surely, it would be wiser for the Department to say: "Now that it is settled there is such a default, we give you six months in which to put it right." Under the Amendment to the Amendment the Department at once would have to issue an Order, and that is the very practical difficulty in the way of accepting it.

One would hope that if such circumstances arose, or if there were a fear of such circumstances arising, a Clause like this would be more useful as a deterrent than to be actually called into operation, and I do suggest there may be cases of a bona fide dispute as to whether there is a real default or not. Once that has been settled, once the Department have ordered a public inquiry, and the inquiry makes clear that there is a default, is it suggested that the Department are going to do nothing? It would be a clear neglect of their duty not to see, by some means or other, that the defect is put right, and no one suggests that the central Department is going to neglect that duty. What we want is to give the people who ought to do the work an opportunity of putting it right themselves. That is the reason why the Government are not prepared to accept the Amendment to the Amendment. This is a business question, and I do suggest that the wiser course is to leave in the word "may," for the two reasons I have suggested, first, that otherwise the Department would be forced to issue an order the moment the verdict of the public inquiry was ascertained; and, secondly, because it is unbelievable that once the Department have got a verdict from the public inquiry that there is such default, they will stay their hand and not see by some method or other that the, public health is safeguarded as regards, for instance, the water supply. We all want to get at the same end, and the question is, what is the most practical and effective method? I say that the most practical and effective method is to get the people themselves to put the matter right, and therefore I ask hon. Members not to press their Amendment.


There is one point of view which the Lord Advocate may have overlooked, and it is one which is in the minds of my colleagues on these benches. There will never be any difficulty in getting the Health Department to take the side of the county council against the burgh. They will always be ready, and naturally ready, to take the side of the great against the small. In this Bill you are taking away certain powers from the burghs and giving them to the county council. Should not the use of one local authority against another be reciprocal?


None of the powers the exercise of which is dealt with by this Clause are transferred powers; they are all powers which are left with the burghs.


That certainly minimises the point I was making, but the main consideration is still with us, that it is quite easy to get support for the county council against the burghs. There might be default in county councils, but I do not think the Department of Health would take steps to instruct the burghs to deal with the defaults of a county council as it would if it were the other way about. My hon. Friends feel that as that is the disposition in the cen- tral department at the present time, it should be made an obligation upon the Department of Health, and whether it is a defaulting county council or a defaulting burgh, it should be treated in the same way. Therefore, we propose that the Government should make it an obligation on the department to take sides, when the necessity arises, with the small burgh against the county council.


May I say how much we regret the absence of the Secretary of State for Scotland? We hope that he will soon be restored to health. After the explanlation given by the Lord Advocate, I think it is absolutely conclusive that in this case "may" is the right word. We do not intend to move the next Amendment, to leave out the word "order" and insert instead thereof the words "agreement with the authorities concerned."


I do not think that the explanation is wholly satisfactory. We cannot conceive it possible that any action will be taken in the circumstances indicated by the Lord Advocate, but where it is actually a case of default then, of course, there must be no failure in the application of the provision.


I think that "shall" is the proper word to use in this case, because the Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman has put down says that these powers will only be put into operation when the local authority has failed. It cannot be proved to have failed until after the inquiry has been made. It cannot, further, have failed until it has had a reasonable time after the result of the inquiry to carry out any improvements which the inquiry has shown to be necessary. It is, therefore, perfectly logical and proper, when the burgh of the county council has been proved to have failed to discharge its duty, and a certain time has been allowed to elapse after the inquiry, that there should be no question that the department should then put into operation the powers indicated in this Clause. Therefore, I think there is good ground for our sticking to the word which we have suggested.

Question put, "That the word "may" stand part of the proposed Amendment.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 196; Noes, 86.

Division No. 205.] AYES. [4.20 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut. -Colonel Ganzoni, Sir John Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Alexander, E. E (Leyton) Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Nelson, Sir Frank
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Gates, Percy Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)
Apsley, Lord Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Grant, Sir J. A. Nuttall, Ellis
Atholl, Duchess of Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Owen, Major G.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Gunston, Captain D. W. Penny, Frederick George
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Hacking, Douglas H. Perring, Sir William George
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Hamilton, Sir George Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Berry, Sir George Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Pownall, Sir Assheton
Bethel, A. Hammersley, S. S. Price, Major C. W M.
Betterton, Henry B. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Radford, E. A.
Blundell, F. N. Hartington, Marquess of Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)
Boothby, R. J. G. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Ropner, Major L.
Briggs, J. Harold Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian Ross, R. D.
Briscoe, Richard George Henn, Sir Sydney H. Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Herbert, S. (York. N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Hilton, Cecil Rye, F. G.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks,Newh'y) Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Sandeman, N. Stewart
Buckingham, Sir H. Hopkins, J. W. W. Sandon, Lord
Campbell, E. T. Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Savery, S. S.
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew,W.)
Cayzer Sir C. (Chester, City) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth.S.) Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Skelton, A. N.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n. & Kinc'dine, C.)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm.,W.) Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Smithers, Waldron
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Christie. J. A. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Iveagh, Countess of Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen't) Strauss, E. A.
Clarry, Reginald George Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Streatfeild, Captain S. R.
Clayton, G. C. Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Cohen, Major J. Brunel King, Commodore Henry Douglas Tasker, R. Inigo.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Templeton, W. P.
Cooper, A. Duff Knox, Sir Alfred Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Cope, Major Sir William Lamb, J. Q. Tomlinson, R. P.
Couper, J. B. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Loder, J. de V. Wallace, Captain D. E.
Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Looker, Herbert William Ward. Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Dalkeith, Earl of Macintyre, Ian Watts, Sir Thomas
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) McLean, Major A. Wayland, Sir William A.
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) MacRobert, Alexander M. Wells, S. R.
Davies, Dr. Vernon Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Wiggins, William Martin
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Eden, Captain Anthony Margesson, Capt. D Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Elliot, Major Walter E. Meller, R. J. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Ellis, R. G. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Meyer, Sir Frank Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Everard, W. Lindsay Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Womersley, W. J.
Fairfax, Captain J. G. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Wood, Rt. Hon Sir Kingsley
Falle, Sir Bertram G. Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Fermoy, Lord Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Ford, Sir P. J. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Mr. F. C. Thomson and Sir Victor
Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Morris, R. H. Warrender.
Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife. West) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Greenall, T.
Ammon, Charles George Cape, Thomas Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Barr, J. Charleton, H. C. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Batey, Joseph Clarke, A. B. Hardie, George D
Beckett, John (Gateshead) Connolly, M. Harris, Percy A.
Bellamy, A. Cove, W. G. Hayes, John Henry
Benn, Wedgwood Dalton, Ruth (Bishop Auckland) Hirst, G. H.
Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Dalton, Hugh Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)
Bondfield, Margaret Day, Harry John, William (Rhondda, West)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Duncan, C. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)
Broad, F. A. Gillett, George M. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Potts, John S. Townend, A. E.
Kelly, W. T. Purcell, A. A. Wallhead, Richard C.
Kennedy, T. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne)
Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Scrymgeour, E. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondde)
Lantbury, George Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Presten) Wellock, Wilfred
Lawrence, Susan Shiels, Dr. Drummond Welsh, J. C.
Lee, F. Shinwell, E. Westwood, J.
Lindley, F. W. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Lowth, T. Smillie, Robert Williams, David (Swansea, East).
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Mackinder, W. Snell, Harry Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
MacNeill-Weir, L. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Maxton, James Stephen, Campbell Wright, W.
Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (palsley) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Sutton, J. E.
Palin, John Henry Taylor, R. A. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Paling, w. Thurtie, Ernest Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Tinker, John Joseph T. Henderson.

Question proposed, "That the proposed words be there inserted."


In regard to the alteration from the word "or" to the word "and"—"excessive and unreasonable expenditure"—would it not be well to make the Clause read "and/or"? There may be expense which is unreasonable, but which does not come under the head of "excessive," and vice versa.


I prefer the words as proposed. They exactly correspond to the Clause dealing with the

circumstances under which the Secretary of State may reduce the grants in respect of failure on the part of authorities, Clause 50, where hon. Members will find the phrase "excessive and unreasonable." I hope the hon. Member will not press the point.

Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 180; Noes, 103.

Division No. 206.] AYES. [4.30 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut. Colonel Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Herbert,S.(York, N.R.,Scar. & Wh'by)
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Hilton, Cecil
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Crookshank, Col. C. de W (Berwick) Hopkins, J. W. W.
Apsley, Lord Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)
Atholl, Duchess of Dalkeith, Earl of Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Davies, Maj. Geo. P. (Somerset, Yeovil) Horne, Rt. Hon. sir Robert S.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Davies, Dr. Vernon Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Eden, Captain Anthony Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Berry, Sir George Elliot, Major Walter E. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Bethel, A. Ellis, R. G. Iveagh, Countess of
Betterton, Henry B. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Blundell, F. N. Everard, W. Lindsay Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William
Boothby, R. J. G. Fairfax, Captain J. G. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Faile, Sir Bertram G. King, Commodore Henry Douglas
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Briggs, J. Harold Fermoy, Lord Knox, Sir Alfred
Briscoe, Richard George Ford, Sir P. J. Lamb, J. Q.
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Ganzoni, Sir John Loder, J. de v.
Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Gates, Percy Looker, Herbert William
Buckingham, Sir H. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Campbell, E. T. Gower, Sir Robert Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) MacIntyre, Ian
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Grant, Sir J. A McLean, Major A.
Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.) Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Mac Robert, Alexander M.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W. Gunston, Captain D. W. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywoo") Hacking, Douglas H. Margesson, Captain D.
Charter is, Brigadier-General J. Hamilton, Sir George Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Christie, J. A. Hammersley, S. S. Meller, R. J.
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Merriman, Sir F. Boyd
Clarry, Reginald George Hartington, Marquess of Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-
Clayton, G. C. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Cohen, Major J. Brunel Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Henderson,Capt.R. R. (Oxt'd, Henley) Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Cooper, A. Duff Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Cope, Major Sir William Henn, Sir Sydney H. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Couper, J. B. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Nelson, Sir Frank
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Sandeman, N. Stewart Wallace, Captain D. E.
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn.W.G. (Ptrst'ld.) Sandon, Lord Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Savery, S. S. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Nuttall, Ellis Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew,W.) Warrender, Sir Victor
Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Skelton, A. N. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Perring, Sir William George Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Watts, Sir Thomas
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple Smith-Carington, Neville W. Wayland, Sir William A.
Pownall, Sir Assheton Smithers, Waldron Wells, S R.
Price, Major C. W. M. Southby, Commander A. R. J. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Radford, E. A. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Ropner, Major L. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Womersley, W. J.
Ross, R. D. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Ruggies-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Tasker, R Inigo.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Templeton, W. P. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Salmon, Major I. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Mr. F. C. Thomson and Mr. Penny.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Harris, Percy A. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hayes, John Henry Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Ammon, Charles George Hirst, G. H. Shinwell, E.
Barr, J. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Batey, Joseph Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Beckett, John (Gateshead) John, William (Rhondda, West) Smillie, Robert
Bellamy, A. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Benn, Wedgwood Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Snell, Harry
Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Bondfield, Margaret Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Stephen, Campbell
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Broad, F. A. Kelly, W. T. Strauss, E. A.
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Kennedy, T Sutton, J. E.
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Taylor, R. A.
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Lansbury, George Thurtie, Ernest
Cape, Thomas Lawrence, Susan Tinker, John Joseph
Charleton, H. C. Lee, F. Tomlinson, R. P.
Clarke, A. B. Lindley, F. W. Townend, A. E.
Connolly, M. Lowth, T. Wallhead, Richard C.
Cove, W. G. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne)
Dalton, Ruth (Bishop Auckland) Mackinder, W. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Dalton, Hugh MacLaren, Andrew Wellock.,Wilfred
Day, Harry MacNeill-Weir, L. Welsh, J. C.
Duncan, C. Maxton, James Westwood, J.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Morris, R. H. Wiggins, William Martin
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Gillett, George M. Owen, Major G. Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Palin, John Henry Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Pethick- Lawrence, F. W. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Greenall, T. Potts, John S. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Purcell, A. A. Wright, W.
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)
Hardie, George D. Scrymgeour, E. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Paling.

Question put, and agreed to.