§ The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley)I beg to move, in page 146, to leave out from the word "companies," in line 33, to the word "and," in line 35.
In the Bill it is provided that the fund during the first year shall provide half of one per cent. of the total amount paid into the fund to meet the expenses of the Railway Companies. While the Bill was going through the Committee stage we included several other items in the selected traffics which may increase the expenses of the Railway Companies and justify a larger charge upon the fund. This Amendment proposes that for the first year as in subsequent years the Railway Rates Tribunal should be authorised to increase the amount to be paid out of the fund for these purposes.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Colonel ASHLEYI beg to move, in page 147, line 1, to leave out the word "administrative."
This Amendment is moved to remove any doubts regarding the position of companies. It means that the fund is to bear the expenses of the Railway 651 Rates Tribunal as far as this particular scheme is concerned, and the Railway Rates Tribunal is the body to adjudicate on these matters.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendments made:
§ In page 147, line 2, after the word "under," insert the words "or for the purposes of."
§ In line 21, leave out the words "each of the several traffics contained in" and insert instead thereof the words "the selected traffics contained in each of."—[Colonel Ashley.]
§ The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister)I beg to move, in page 148, line 7, at the end, to insert the words:
(5) The scheme shall make provision for apportioning the rebates to be allowed among the carriage charges made in the following cases:This Amendment and those that follow have been put down in order to implement an undertaking which was given to the House when we were dealing with trade carried coastwise. It provides that exported coal should be included in the coal rebate. This Amendment also meets the case where in accordance with the modern practice, instead of carrying one washery and one coke oven serving a colliery works or factory, we have a combination of a large coke oven to deal with a group of steel works and a group of collieries. I propose this Amendment to include in the selected traffics coal which is delivered to a washery coke oven or patent fuel works, from two or more collieries. Paragraph (b) deals with coal shipped coastwise and it has to be read in conjunction with a provision lower down in the Clause. It is designed to meet the case where in case of a certain amount of coal passing in the export trade it is impossible to identify that coal with any 652 one consignment which has passed along a railway. We shall be able now to give the rebate to such traffic partly rail and partly coastwise which comes into any port.
- (a) in respect of coal delivered to a washery, coke oven, or patent fuel works, from two or more collieries where the coal is so mixed that it cannot be identified as being consigned from any one colliery and a part only of the resultant coal, coke, or patent fuel is a selected traffic; and
- (b) in respect of coal shipped coastwise where the coal is so mixed that it cannot be identified as being consigned from any one colliery and a part only thereof is exported."
Mr. GREENWOODI wish to ask you, Mr. Speaker, if you will permit a general discussion on the Amendment in page 153, line 12, which stands in the name of the Minister of Transport. I gather from what the President of the Board of Trade has said that it might be for the convenience of the House if we took the discussion on this particular Amendment.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI shall be quite satisfied if the discussion takes place on any Amendment, provided that the particular points which hon. Members wish to discuss are included in it. If this Amendment covers the question which the hon. Gentleman has raised, it might be discussed now.
Mr. GREENWOODI do not know that it does cover it entirely. The question of exported coal is dealt with in a later Amendment, but the question of coal shipped coastwise is raised on this Amendment. Would it be in order for us, on this particular Amendment, to discuss both these questions?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI am entirely in the hands of the House. If they like to discuss those questions now, I am quite satisfied that they should do so.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERPerhaps the hon. Gentleman does not appreciate what these combined Amendments do. They do, in fact, cover the whole coastwise traffic where it is a selected traffic.
§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYNot coal only?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERNot coal only.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYThis is a slight concession to the coastwise shipping industry. It is something, and we must be thankful for small mercies. It is a commentary upon what happened in Committee. In Committee we had not much time for the discussion, and a great many points were left obscure. One of these, to which I must refer because it has a bearing on later Amendments, was that the President of the Board of Trade, who, I always 653 thought, had the shipping of the country specially under his care, told us that the shipping interests were quite satisfied with the Schedule and with the Bill as drawn, and that they thought that this was the best of all possible Governments and that the right hon. Gentleman was the best of all possible Ministers. I ventured to challenge that, and the right hon. Gentleman took refuge in the fall of the Guillotine. Now we see that there was a case, at any rate, for part of the claims of the coastwise shipping trade, and I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Mr. Runciman) is here to support it.
If this be admitted, and if the Government have given us a concession in this respect, that when coal is carried for these particular purposes as a selected traffic by water it shall get some rebate, just as if it were carried by rail, why, may I ask, do the Government still harden their hearts, if they do harden their hearts—I am not quite sure, because the Amendments are very long and complicated—and differentiate against other traffics carried coastwise? I would press for an answer to that question at some time during this discussion, and I would put it to the President of the Board of Trade that his function, if he will allow me to say so, is not to score debating points off those Members who are trying to get some concession for the shippers and the coastal shipping trade, but to defend the interests of a very valuable industry which, as I repeat, I thought was his special care.
Why, if this concession is given in regard to coal, is it refused in regard to other selected traffics, such as potatoes, manures, oil cakes and other articles which get the rebate if they are carried on the railway? I understand that deputations have waited on the right hon. Gentleman and the Minister of Transport, and that even the Prime Minister has been approached on this matter, but we can get nothing for the coastal shipping trade except this one concession with regard to coal. Could we have some explanation? Unless some explanation is given, I really think that there ought to be a protest from other parts of the House, because this question is not a party question, but affects all Members who represent seaports in this House. This is not merely an Opposition point; 654 it is a national question, and, unless the Government do something, direct unemployment will be caused at the ports among a body of men who are suffering very much.
If the right hon. Gentleman cannot give us any further concession, may I put this to him, and the same principle will arise in regard to some further traffics—for instance, in regard to the milling question which was referred to the other day. Perhaps it is too much to ask the Government to give us a concession immediately, although I hope they will; but will they promise that, if it is found in practice, when the Bill comes into operation and when these rebates are in operation, that an unfair advantage has been given to this section of common carriers as against that section of common carriers—if the railway companies are getting an unfair advantage in their quite healthy competition with the shipping companies—can the Government promise us, that is, if they are still in office, and the same promise will bind their successors, that an amending Bill will be brought in? It can be quite a short and simple Bill, and its object will be to balance the advantages of rate relief evenly amongst the different bodies who act as common carriers for the public and the merchants of the whole country. That is all that we want, namely, as the sailors say, a fair crack of the whip for both the coastal shipping trade and the railway lines. The Government must know that they have done some injustice, and this Amendment is a somewhat tardy recognition of that fact. If we cannot have a concession now, I would like an assurance at any rate that the situation will be carefully watched, and that this Bill in the future is not going to be like the laws of the Medes and Persians, not to be altered even in a comma.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERIf I may speak again by the leave of the House, I can answer the hon. and gallant Gentleman's question immediately. He has said that he wishes exactly the same provision to be made where other selected traffics are carried in order to be shipped coastwise. They will receive that benefit. [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] Now. This is not in answer to an appeal made at the last moment, but after very full discussion with the Chamber of Shipping and the right hon. Gentleman 655 the Member for West Swansea (Mr. Runciman) to whom I am indebted for a great deal of help in this matter. This point was raised by the shipping industry, who said, "Selected traffic in the case of coal is coal for export. Some coal passes by rail to a port, and is then shipped coastwise. It reaches, say, the Port of London, and from some depot in London it is exported. In order to put us square with the railways as regards that coal traffic, we ought to secure a rebate on the coal exported in respect of the journey which that coal originally made from the colliery to the port." That is exactly the case that I have met by this Amendment, and the House will see that I have met it whether the coal can be identified or not. Now the hon. and gallant Gentleman asks why the same thing is not done with regard to other selected traffics. As a matter of fact, the same thing is done. The hon. and gallant Gentleman is now talking about agricultural traffics. Where agricultural traffics are consigned from an inland centre to a port to be shipped coastwise, they will of course be entitled to their 10 per cent. rebate on the railway from the point of despatch to the port.
§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYThat is a direct advantage to the railways as against the shipping trade when the traffics are carried from port to port.
§ Mr. PALINI am wanting to be thankful for a small mercy, but I really cannot see where it comes in. The President of the Board of Trade has told us that he is giving the concession that was asked for by the Chamber of Shipping. They asked for a very simple thing, and it seems to me that the reply might be given in very simple language. They asked that on the Scheduled traffic they should receive the same rebate as the railway companies received. Their complaint was that, by the ante-dating of the Act so far as rebates on certain selected traffics were concerned, they were suffering a great disadvantage and were losing traffic. They submitted figures to the right hon. Gentleman to show the extent to which they were losing traffic, and pointed out to him that, if this went on until the Act came fully into operation, that traffic would be alienated from them for all time. It 656 seems to be a small matter, and it is strange that I as a Labour Member should be here pleading for the right hon. Gentleman's friends. I could understand the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Mr. Runciman) pleading for this, but we are told that this will make a disturbance in the employment in the ports quite out of proportion to the amount of money which the right hon. Gentleman could give by a Supplementary Estimate and which would place them on exactly the same footing as the railways. Can the right hon. Gentleman divest his concession of its trimmings and tell us whether he is actually conceding the coastwise shippers' demand, or how far he is falling short of it, or whether this is a compromise? At the moment I cannot see that he is giving anything at all.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERThe last thing that I want to do is to mislead the hon. Gentleman, but it is a little difficult to bring this within the terms of any conceivable Amendment that we could discuss on this Schedule. Two claims were made. One was the original claim, which I thought was very reasonable, that in respect of all coal they should be treated on all fours. That claim is completely met. So far as regards other selected traffics, such as agricultural traffics carried from an agricultural centre to a port, obviously those traffics will get the 10 per cent. rebate from the agricultural centre to the port. I do not know whether I am in order in answering these questions, but two alternative proposals were put forward. One was that a direct subsidy should be given on a special Vote to coastwise traffic. That was the proposal put forward by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Sir L. Scott)—it was not, I know, the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Mr. Runciman)—and that suggestion is now made by the hon. Member who has just spoken. I do not think I ought to go into all the arguments on that subject at a time when we cannot discuss it, but the House will remember that I did reply upon it on the last occasion, and said that I did not feel justified in submitting to the House a Vote for a subsidy because I did not think the case for a subsidy had been proved.
657 8.0 p.m.
My right hon. Friend the Member for West Swansea made an alternative proposal which it is, strictly speaking, equally out of order to discuss now. His proposal was to anticipate the whole of the de-rating of the docks. Of course, if the de-rating of the docks were anticipated, the coastwise trade would, they think, get certain concessions from the dock companies, and what they are asking is, not for a subsidy, but that they may be in the same position in which they will be in a few months time when the complete de-rating of the docks comes into operation. There are two answers to that. The first is that the maximum amount of traffic to be relieved is small, and even at its highest figure it would only be something like £300,000. Limiting very considerably the body of traffic you can get in, and assuming a pound-to-pound freight and a 10 per cent. rebate, on that you get a figure of something like £20,000. In order to meet that, and the measure of competition which operates in different cases—it will only be relatively few cases in which there will be really keen competition— my right hon. Friend says, "Let us de-rate in advance the whole of the docks." To do that would cost something like £750,000.
§ Mr. RUNCIMAN indicated dissent.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERYes, taking a rough calculation of what the docks pay and taking three-quarters of those rates, a conservative estimate would involve a payment of £750,000. It would be a really impossible thing to de-rate the docks in advance, because the assessment of the docks will not be completed in time. It is a very difficult assessment which has got to be gone through. They have to separate, for the purposes of assessment under this Bill, those parts of the docks which are freight hereditaments from those parts which are merely warehouses. That is a lengthy process, the end of which cannot be reached until shortly before the main Bill comes into force. Therefore, on administrative grounds and on account of the large expenditure involved, the Government felt it was really quite impossible to consider the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman. I will do him justice to say that he said that the last thing in the world for which he wanted to ask was a subsidy.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI do not think we are justified on the Report stage of the Schedule in entering into discussions of alternative schemes. It is quite enough to mention the alternatives, but we cannot go into their merits.
§ Mr. PALINGAm I to understand that the Minister's reply is this, that no additional assistance is to be given in any way to the coastwise traders? He is really taking credit for the fact that certain goods would go partly by railway and partly by sea, and that shipowners would benefit by the concession given to the railways.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERNo, I have moved an Amendment which I have explained to the House.
Mr. RUNCIMANThe coastwise trade are satisfied with regard to coal. That is only a very restricted part of the problem with which the right hon. Gentleman has to deal. It would be out of order to go back on the discussion held here before, but it was from the very first no part of the case that I was authorised to put forward on behalf of the coastwise shipping that they should claim a subsidy.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERHear, hear!
Mr. RUNCIMANThey did not ask for it, and the Chamber of Shipping has set its face very strongly against the subsidy on shipping as being a wrong principle. I was, however, asked to place before my right hon. Friend the claim made by the coastwise shipping to receive the anticipated relief already given to the railways. At a remarkable meeting held in a Committee Boom upstairs, where nearly every part of the country was represented by those who claimed to speak on behalf of the coastwise shipping—I was only in the chair, and not a spokesman—it was made clear that what they objected to was that under the provisions of the scheme the railways are going to get 10 months start. My right hon. Friend says that that is not a very large amount. Perhaps it is not large when we consider the figures we discuss in this House, but it may be large enough to establish a traffic on the railways which will not afterwards return to the coastwise ships; because, when once a traffic is run into one channel it is not 659 easily diverted again into the old original channel. I gather that under this Schedule we cannot possibly ask for any form of relief which will put the railways and the shipping on the same footing. If that is the case, Mr. Speaker, I naturally cannot press the matter against your ruling, and would not think of doing so, but when my right hon. Friend speaks of the de-rating of the docks he is taking a figure which covers the whole of the dock property. He has himself pointed out that, as we discovered in the discussions last summer, the warehouse part is not to receive any de-rating.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERNo, I think I gave a perfectly correct figure. That is the figure after taking all the elements in the docks which are not going to be entitled to relief. The cost of de-rating the docks will be £750,000.
Mr. RUNCIMANI am rather surprised to hear that very large figure, because the Docks' and Harbours' Association, when we met upstairs, said that, as far as they could ascertain, the total amount of the rating relief in the course of a year would be something like £500,000. Ten months could not possibly make that £750,000. There must be something wrong in the arithmetic. Whatever that may be, the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues have not, in the opinion of the coastwise shipping, done them justice. They feel a deep sense of the grievance, and they only hope that the result of their experience in the next 10 months will not be the diversion of traffic for which they have to fight in open competition with the railways which have been given assistance by the Minister of Transport. They feel that they have not received fair play at the hands of the Government.
§ Sir GODFREY COLLINSI followed as closely as I could the President of the Board of Trade in his opening speech and in his interruptions. He referred to the concessions in regard to agricultural products. I should like to ask him, will sugar come under that definition? He is no doubt aware that the sugar-refining industry in Greenock is suffering because of the policy of the Government. I rise only to ask him whether the definition of agricultural products covers sugar either in its raw state or in its refined state after leaving the factory.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERThe definition covers the offal of the sugar beet used for feeding livestock, and it covers treacle consigned direct to the farmer. As far as sugar as a feeding stuff is concerned, there is a very long list set out in the Schedule; otherwise sugar is not a selected traffic. I think the right hon. Gentleman knows that these traffics were selected because they were those that agriculture thought would be of the greatest advantage to it.
Mr. BENNAs a Member representing a port, I was approached in this matter by the coastwise shipping people. The discussion took place on the Committee stage, at which I was not present, and satisfaction was not given to them. In the ordinary way it would be in the power of hon. Gentlemen to move to recommit a certain Clause or Schedule of the Bill in order to raise this matter. If they did that1, they would be in a position to ask the Government to make the necessary financial arrangements. But the Government have preserved, under their Guillotine Resolution, the sole power of re-committal, and have therefore cut out all our powers to take any step which might have been framed to raise the points which we want to raise. Therefore, the blame lies entirely on the Government's shoulders that the matter cannot be properly debated to-day. The Government have reserved this power to themselves, not in order that they should use it, but in order that other Members should not use it. I should like to associate myself with the protest made by my right hon. and hon. Friends with regard to coastwise shipping.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendment made:
§ In page 149, line 8, after the first word "of," insert the word "the."—[Colonel Ashley.]
§ Colonel ASHLEYI beg to move, in page 150, to leave out from the word "twenty-one," in line 30, to the word "subsection" in line 32.
§ This Amendment is consequential.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYTo what is this consequential?
§ Colonel ASHLEYIt is consequential to the Amendment in page 147, line 1, leave out the word "administrative."
§ Amendment agreed to.
661§ Further Amendment made:
§ In page 150, line 35, leave out the word "that," and insert instead thereof the words "the said."—[Colonel Ashley.]
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI beg to move, in page 153, line 3, at the end, to insert the words:
'Coke oven' means works consisting of coke ovens wholly or mainly engaged in the production of coke for metallurgical purposes.This is consequential on the Amendment which the House has just carried, which has introduced the principle that a coke oven shall be included in the privileges given to selected traffic.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI beg to move, in page 153, line 12, at the end, to insert the words:
'Exported' in relation to coal, coke or patent fuel, means shipped to places outside the British Islands, or as bunkers for ships proceeding to places outside those islands, or as bunkers for fishing vessels, and 'exported coal, coke, or patent fuel' includes coal, coke, and patent fuel shipped coastwise before being exported.
§ This Amendment is consequential.
§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERIn view of the Amendment—in page 156, line 35, to leave out from the beginning, to the end of line 6, page 157, and to insert instead thereof the words:
Exported coal, coke, or patent fuel.Coal, coke, or patent fuel delivered to and used in iron or steel works.Coal delivered to patent fuel works to the extent that it is exported as patent fuel after manufacture.Coal delivered to a washery to the extent that it is, after being washed or cleaned, exported or delivered to iron or steel works.Coal delivered to a coke oven (not being situated at iron or steel works) to the extent that it is, after being converted into coke at the coke oven, exported or delivered to iron or steel works—I do not know whether it would be for the convenience of the House if you, Mr Speaker, would allow a general discussion at this point upon the question of extending the relief to other coal and patent fuel besides exported coal. Then, after that, we could move a manuscript Amendment to that proposed Amendment, on page 156, line 35, to leave out the word "exported." We could move 662 that formally and divide on it, having taken our general discussion on the first Amendment.
§ Mr. SPEAKERProbably it will be the general sense of the House that that would be the moat convenient thing to do. The question obviously hangs together with the Government Amendment in page 156, line 35, to which, I understand, the hon. Gentleman has handed in a manuscript Amendment. Therefore, it would probably be better to take a general discussion now.
§ Mr. ALEXANDERI have no intention of detaining the House at any length on this matter, but hon. Members will recollect that when the Committee stage of the Bill was under discussion we took very strong exception on this side to this relief being confined to exported coal. The case that we submit is that it is very unwise for the Government to be giving relief of this kind in such a way that our actual competitors in manufactures in Europe and other places will be receiving the benefit of British relief in cheaper coal to be used, in some places, for industrial purposes in competition with our home manufactures. The President of the Board of Trade replied on the last occasion, and I think rightly, that in the case of the iron and steel industry on the Continent, this exported coal would not be used, but I think he will hardly say that what is in effect the subsidising of foreign manufacturers of other commodities can be put in the same category as iron and steel. It is plain on examination that there will be a number of industries which compete with certain British productions which will in fact get the benefit of the cheaper coal by means of passing on this rebate only in respect of export coal.
There is also this question to be considered, that there are a large number of our industries at home that are in different degrees of prosperity. Some of them, of course, are doing fairly well; others are not doing so well, and if there was anything at all in the general argument of the Government that the de-rating scheme as a whole will tend to stimulate British production and increase the possibility of finding a market by reduction of costs, and therefore will stimulate the demand for workers to produce the goods required, surely the re- 663 lief ought to be spread over those industries which are really in need of a stimulus of that kind. I have very grave doubts indeed whether artificial methods of this kind are the best to be adopted for industry. Indeed, all the discussion we are getting on this Schedule shows exactly how log-rolling takes place between all the different trading interests as soon as the State comes in to stimulate this or that special section of the industrial and commercial community against some other section. If the Government is to avoid the charge that what is after all the taxpayers' money in the last resort, in the income from the Petrol Tax and general contributions from the Exchequer, is to be used for this special subsidy, surely all the productive industries which find it necessary to use coal ought to have the advantage of the cheaper freights which will be possible by the passing of a scheme of this kind. I do not wish to take up time, but I have to express the view of the Opposition on the matter and, whilst we shall take the Division upon the manuscript Amendment which we shall move on the next page in the Order Paper, we record our opinion now.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI want to give an additional reason for supporting the manuscript Amendment. This bounty to the export trade is deceptive. When the general taxpayer was asked to find money from the general revenues of the country in order that the railway companies should be allowed to reduce freights on coal, we were told it was in order to stimulate the export trade. In answer to questions since the Committee stage, the Secretary for Mines admits, without equivocation at all, that there has been no reduction in the price. There may have been a little here, and a little increase elsewhere, but I have actual figures from Hull showing that there has been no falling off in the price. Then how can you stimulate the export trade? [Interruption.] I wonder if the President of the Board of Trade is a disciple of the new creed in business methods, not of a large turnover and a small return, totalling in the whole a large profit, but a small turnover, a restricted output, and an inflated profit. We heard a few minutes ago the right hon. Gentleman's horror of a subsidy for shipping. "You must 664 not give anything to coastwise shipping. That would be quite contrary to the Government's policy." This subsidy to the coalowners is going straight into their pockets. There has been no reduction in the price, and in consequence, there has been no increase in the export. How can there be?
We are told we have to compete with coal from Germany and other countries, and the only way we can compete is by reducing the price. That has been the argument when the miners were told they must take less wages. We are passing this provision and it is going into the pockets of the coalowners. The Secretary for Mines says they are losing money. I doubt it. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman can take me to a workhouse and show me a coalowner in it, I will believe him, if he can produce a coalowner who is receiving outdoor relief, I will believe him, but I do not believe the coalowners are losing money. They may be able to show a book loss, but they make it up by sales of domestic coal—some of the pits are almost solely export pits—or by other manipulation or by the sale of by-products, or else they are shareholders of steel works. The whole thing is intertwined. It is log-rolling. They play into each other's hands. When the hon. and gallant Gentleman shows me a starving coalowner, as I can show him scores of thousands of almost starving miners, we shall be in agreement, but till then, no.
The second point is that, in spite of our subsidies and attempts to stimulate trade, coalowners are deliberately restricting trade by their policy of restricting outputs. You have the five counties scheme in operation, which fixes the quota for the collieries in the five Midland and Northern counties, and in Goole, Hull, Grimsby, on the Clyde, and the Tyne and in South Wales ships are held up continually for bunker coal or for the export trade and cannot get clear. The Secretary for Mines had his attention drawn to this at Question-time, but he has not heard of it officially. May I draw attention to what the shipowners themselves say in their official organs. You will see complaints week after week about queues of shipping. I have evidence from the Humber. The hon. and gallant Gentleman says he is doing his best to have the delays reduced. Why are there these delays? 665 The answer is that this is a policy of ca'canny. It is a deliberate restriction by rationing, and it tends to raise the price of coal by creating an artificial scarcity. It is shameful that we should be asked to subsidise that action, and to give it a bounty. Some people may say that it is rationalisation. The hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) always sits as a kind of bird of prey on the bench below the Gangway opposite, waiting to pounce on behalf of the coal-owners. Every chance that he gets, he says: "Is not this rationalization? Is not this what the Samuel Committee advocated? Is not this what certain Members of this House recognise as inevitable?" It is not rationalisation. It means putting up the whole of the overhead charges; it means keeping on the inefficient as well as the efficient pits and it means keeping the whole of the water in the capital. It is the policy of ca'canny, and if anyone tells me that the policy of ca'canny is rationalisation, I tell them that they know nothing about it.
This is not rationalisation, it is not fair trading, it is not free trading. It is taking advantage of a situation which has been encouraged and created by this Government. We are asked to subsidise such an action and to find money for it from the pockets of the overburdened taxpayers, we are giving these people every encouragement, and presents into the bargain. The result in the ports is that ships are held up, and trade is driven away from foreign countries which means loss of employment and loss of business. That fact is admitted by the Minister responsible for the Mines Department, although he says: "We are making things better. I am making representations to the coal owners." Trade is being deliberately hampered and turned away from our ports owing to this absurd rationalisation scheme. It is said that it has only been in operation for a few months, that the difficulties have not all been overcome, and that those concerned are doing their best. The policy itself is wrong. It is very short-sighted and is not in the best interests of the export trade. I do not want to vote against any kind of real help to trade, but I should certainly vote for the Amendment. I dare say the Parliamentary 666 Secretary to the Ministry of Health is very sincere in believing in his Bill and in thinking that it will encourage trade; but when he is sitting up night after night, with an industry which we all admire and a resourcefulness which some of us envy, a selfish and very short-sighted body of men are undermining the work that he is trying to do.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope)How does the hon. and gallant Member connect this argument with the export of coal?
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI thought we were allowed to discuss along and with the Amendment the further Amendment over the page, to leave out the word "exported." My point is, that if we are going to give this subsidy to the export trade and the merchants are not allowed to take advantage of it, apart from the coalowners, then we might as well give it to the domestic consumers.
§ Mr. GEORGE HALLI should like to know the position with regard to small coal used for patent fuel. There was a discussion in the Committee stage with regard to the small coals which were taken to the patent fuel works at the dockside, and at that time the President of the Board of Trade promised that the matter should be considered. Is the position clear in regard to small coal used for patent fuel? There is one further point which arises on the general discussion. The Secretary for the Mines Department will, no doubt, refer to the fact that some of my colleagues and myself met him with regard to the question of confining the benefits under the scheme to export coal. We did urge that, and the position which was taken up by myself and my colleagues was one which we thought was best in the interests of the export trade. The position was put quite clearly to the Secretary for Mines, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and other members of the Government when we met them. We pointed out that it was very largely as a result of the policy of the Government that we desired that the benefit should be confined to export coal because as a result of the operation of the Eight Hours Act foreign coals, Polish and Silesian and other coals used in competition with ours in the export market, had to be subsidised because of the re- 667 duction of price as a result of the Eight Hours Act coming into operation in this country. That is the position at the present time. Silesian export coal is carried over the railways from the pit to the port at half the cost at which it was carried in pre-War days. It is very largely because of that policy that we asked that this benefit should be confined to export coal.
The right hon. Gentleman opposite referred to the fact that there has been a reduction in the price of export coal. If he will look at the figures for December and compare them with the figures for November he will find that there is a reduction of something like 4d. per ton on export coal from South Wales, which is the f.o.b. price. The right hon. Gentleman will admit that almost as soon as this benefit came into operation a Government Department, in inviting contracts for tenders for coal for this year, asked that, in submitting prices, the reduction in price because of the de-rating proposals should be taken into consideration. It is true that the Circular which was sent out was very quickly recalled when brought to the notice of the Secretary for the Mines Department.
§ The SECRETARY for MINES (Commodore King)It was withdrawn immediately.
§ Mr. HALLYes; but it shows the tendency even of Government Departments to try and get the advantage of a concession which was given to the mining industry. If a Government Department is ready to take advantage of a small concession of that kind, we cannot blame the foreigner if he attempts to get a concession.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERIs the hon. Member going to vote against this Amendment?
§ Mr. HALLI shall certainly not vote against it. I should not be consistent in voting against it, because it is what I asked for when I met the Secretary for Mines and asked that the benefit should be confined to coals exported from this country.
§ Commodore KINGMay I assure the hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. Hall) that the point in regard to small coals 668 used for patent fuel is met; if he will read the Amendment at the top of page 677 he will find the words:
Coal delivered to patent fuel works to the extent that it is exported as patent fuel after manufacture.That carries out the undertaking which has been given. There is not much need to reply to the speech of the hon. Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) and the speech of the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander), because the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull so successfully demolished the speech made by his colleague. His colleague complained that this freight relief on export coal was wholly wasted and that it was doing harm, because it was being really given as a present to our foreign competitors. The hon. Member for Central Hull pointed out that so far from the price having gone down to the foreigner the price had actually increased. It has. If hon. Members will study the prices of export coal from every exporting district as between the 1st December and the present time they will find that in every case the price of all classes of coal has gone up. I am extremely glad that the price has gone up and I hope that we may see it go still higher, because it means that so far as the coal trade is concerned it is not only getting the advantage of 6d. or 7d. a ton freight relief in the coal which it is sending into port, but it is getting a considerable improvement in price. When the hon. Member for Central Hull says that we are doing nothing to stimulate trade, I would remind him that that in itself is stimulating trade, because not only has the price gone up but the amount exported has increased and is increasing week by week.
§ Mr. ALEXANDERDoes the hon. and gallant Member suggest that the reduction in freight price has actually raised the price of export coal?
§ Commodore KINGNo, but it has stimulated trade without a doubt. Far from prices going down, I say that they are going up, and I hope they will still further rise. Not because, as the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull says, that the profits go into the pockets of the coalowners. He ought to realise, if he takes any interest in the coal industry, that for years the coal industry has been losing shillings per ton and any- 669 thing we can do to decrease that loss is all for the benefit of the industry and those who work in it. If profits are made, instead of going into the pockets of the coalowners as the hon. and gallant Member seems to think, they go, as many of his colleagues will tell him, under present arrangements as regards 87 per cent. of the profits to the mine workers and not to the mineowners. Therefore, any profits that are made are for the benefit of the industry, whether they be coalowners or coal workers.
§ Mr. BATEYI do not think the Secretary for Mines should have sat down before telling us how much money is paid in respect of this freight relief on coal. It came into force on the 4th December last and by this time he ought to be in a position to tell us how much money is being paid. In his speech he argued that prices for export coal have increased. They have; but that was not the expectation of the Government. When they gave this freight relief the Government did so with the intention that it would reduce prices for export coal and for iron and steel as well. The Government boasted last year that they would be able to reduce the prices of iron and steel. Now they have to confess that this freight relief has not reduced the prices of iron and steel by a single penny.
§ Commodore KINGIt is only given to coal.
§ Mr. BATEYI am talking about coal and nothing else. I will repeat my statement for the benefit of the Secretary for Mines, that this freight relief has not reduced the price of iron and steel by a single penny.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERThis only deals with export coal.
§ Mr. BATEYYes, but the two are combined. The freight relief that is given for coal is for the purpose of reducing the prices for export coal and also the prices for coal sold to the iron and steel works. The two are combined. It has not reduced those prices, nor has it reduced the prices of export coal. Since it has been given the prices of export coal have increased. What benefit has this freight relief been to export coal? The Secretary for Mines says that the coal trade is getting the advantage. Who is getting the advantage? When the 670 hon. and gallant Gentleman says that the coal trade is getting the advantage would it not have been fairer if he said that it was the coalowners who were getting the advantage? The Secretary for Mines is bound to admit that the miners themselves are getting no advantage. They are not getting a single penny out of this freight relief.
§ Commodore KINGThey are getting increased employment already.
§ Mr. BATEYLet us see. There is no doubt that the pits that are working are more regularly employed. That is correct, but it has not started a single pit.
§ Commodore KINGOh, yes.
§ Mr. BATEYWell, I come from a district where nearly one-half the coal is for export. Where are the pits that have been started there? As a matter of fact, no pit which was exporting coal in the county of Durham has been restarted. This freight relief does not mean employment to a single miner that was unemployed, and we are justified in saying that it is simply going into the pockets of the coalowners and will never dribble down to the miners themselves. It cannot, for this reason. In each district there is a big debit balance each month against the miners. In two months in the County of Durham the debit balance leached £500,000. This freight relief is not large enough to affect that debit balance, and so long as it exists there can be no increase in wages to the miners. The miners, therefore, get no benefit. The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) is quite right in saying that this freight relief has gone into the pockets of the coalowners, who alone will get any advantage. I am in favour of the Amendment, which says that it would be better to give this freight relief to all coal. The Government have given it in respect of coal carried over the public railways, but will not give a single penny to coal carried over private railways. They do not care what becomes of the collieries carrying coal over private railways. But these pits are being kept fully employed because of the increased demand for export coal and because the prices of export coal have gone up, altogether independently of freight relief. If the Government had wanted to be fair this freight relief would not have been con- 671 fined to coal carried over public railways, but it would have been given to coal carried over private railways as well.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI do not see how the question of private railways arises on this Amendment. We are dealing with the question of the definition of what is export coal, and whether export coal only is to have this benefit. The question of private railways is perfectly irrelevant.
§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYWith all due respect to you, before you came into the Chair it was decided for the convenience of hon. Members that we should have a general discussion on this Amendment and on a manuscript Amendment to the proposed Amendment which raises the whole point, to leave out the word "exported."
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERA general discussion, yes, as to whether the relief should be confined to export coal and also as to what is export coal and coastwise coal, but, surely, questions as to the relief to railways, whether they are public railways or private railways, seems to me to be a totally different point.
§ Mr. BATEYI was under the impression that on this Amendment we were discussing the freight relief for all coal, whether for export or for domestic purposes.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERThe hon. Member is in order in discussing whether the relief should be given to domestic coal as well as to exported coal. I understand that Mr. Speaker said that that was so. But the question of the de-rating of the private railway system seems to be a totally different point.
§ Mr. BATEYI was not discussing the de-rating of private railways. I was arguing that the Government should not confine relief to public railways, but should extend it to private railways, both for export coal and coal for iron and steel. But I will leave that point. If the Government really wanted to help the miners and the coal industry they would have given freight relief to all coal. Much coal is sent to the shipyards and it gets no freight relief. If such coal had received the freight relief, the shipyards might have been encouraged to use more coal, and we might have got more pits started. The same argument applies to 672 domestic coal. We shall never solve the problems of the coal industry by giving relief merely to coal for export purposes. There is a huge amount of coal used for domestic purposes. I have asked the Minister to tell us what is being paid in freight relief. Until we get that information we shall continue to say that this relief is simply a bounty and a dole to the coalowners. When the scheme was first launched the Chancellor of the Exchequer went to Newcastle and told the people that the Government had launched their attack upon the Hindenburg Line, a triple line, the line of unemployment, of trade depression and of rating muddle. How this relief is going to help us with the unemployment in the mining district, I do not know. It has had no effect whatever, and I predict that in two years' time it will have had no effect whatever in curing unemployment in the mining districts. The Government would be wise to stop and think of the lessons that Durham and Northumberland have taught them in the past two weeks.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI am afraid that that has nothing to do with export coal.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERThis Amendment deals with what export coal means, and not with the position of the Government.
§ Mr. BATEYYes, but there are some of us who have a little sympathy with the Government sometimes, and we do not like to see them put into predicaments like this. Here are the miners suffering, and they ought to be the best judges of this freight relief.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI must ask the hon. Member to confine himself to the question whether the relief should be confined to export coal or not.
§ Mr. BATEYI want to know when we can expect what the Government promised—that this freight relief would help us. Meanwhile I say that the relief that the Government have given is simply a dole to the coalowners.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 179; Noes, 104.
633| Division No. 199.] | AYES. | [6.34 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Everard, W. Lindsay | Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) |
| Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. |
| Albery, Irving James | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Fermoy, Lord | Margesson, Captain D. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Fielden, E. B. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) |
| Apsley, Lord | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Waiden) |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Fraser, Captain Ian | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Frece, Sir Walter de | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Atkinson, C. | Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E. | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Ganzoni, Sir John | Moore Sir Newton J. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Moreing, Captain A. H. |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) |
| Bennett, Albert (Nottingham, C.) | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive |
| Berry, Sir George | Goff, Sir Park | Nelson, Sir Frank |
| Bethel, A. | Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter | Neville, Sir Reginald J. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Grotrian, H. Brent | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) |
| Blundall, F. N. | Hacking, Douglas H. | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn.W.G.(Ptrsf'ld.) |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Hanbury, C. | Oakley, T. |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Harland, A. | O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Hartington, Marquess of | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Brass, Captain W. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Penny, Frederick George |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Perring, Sir William George |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Henderson,Capt.R.R.(Oxford, Henley) | Preston, Sir Waiter (Cheltenham) |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian | Radford, E. A. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Ramsden, E. |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Hills, Major John Waller | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Hilton, Cecil | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y,Ch'ts'y) |
| Buchan, John | Hohier, Sir Gerald Fitzroy | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell |
| Burman, J. B. | Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) | Ross, R. D. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Salmon, Major I. |
| Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt.R. (Prtsmth.S.) | Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Blrm.,W.) | Hume, Sir G. H. | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis | Sandon, Lord |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Hurst, Gerald B. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Christle, J. A. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Savery, S. S. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Iveagh, Countess of | Skelton, A. N. |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.) |
| Clayton, G. C. | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William | Smithers, Waldron |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Cohen, Major J. Brunel | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Knox, Sir Alfred | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Lamb, J. Q. | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Locker-Lampson, Com.O. (Handsw'th) | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Long, Major Eric | Tinne, J. A. |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Lougher, Lewis | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Davies, Maj. Geo.F.(Somerset,Yeovl') | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Ward, Lt.-Col.A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Lumley, L. R. | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Wells, S. R. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | MacIntyre, Ian | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Ellis, R. G. | McLean, Major A. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Macmillan, Captain H. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Wolmer, Viscount | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley | Wragg, Herbert | Captain Bowyer and Major the |
| Woodcock, Colonel H. C. | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) | Marquess of Titchfield. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Griffith, F. Kingsley | Ponsonby, Arthur |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Potts, John S. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Groves, T. | Purcell, A. A. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Grundy, T. W. | Ritson, J. |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall,St.Ives) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Barnes, A. | Hardle, George D. | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Barr, J. | Harris, Percy A. | Scurr, John |
| Bellamy, A. | Hayday, Arthur | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Benn, Wedgwood | Hayes, John Henry | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Shinwell, E. |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Hirst, G. H. | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Briant, Frank | Hirst, W. (Bradlord, South) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Broad, F. A. | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Bromley, J. | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Snell, Harry |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Buchanan, G. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Stamford, T. W. |
| Cape, Thomas | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Charleton, H. C. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Strauss, E. A. |
| Clarke, A. B. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Sullivan, J. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Kelly, W. T. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Compton, Joseph | Kennedy, T. | Taylor, R. A. |
| Connolly, M. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Lawrence, Susan | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Dalton, Hugh | Lawson, John James | Tomlinson, R. P. |
| Dalton, Ruth (Bishop Auckland) | Lee, F. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Lindley, F. W. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Longbottom, A. W. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Day, Harry | Lowth, T. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Dennison, R. | Lunn, William | Welsh, J. C. |
| Duncan, C. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Dunnico, H. | Mackinder, W. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Gardner, J. P. | MacLaren, Andrew | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | March, S. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Maxton, James | Windsor, Walter |
| Gillett, George M. | Morris, R. H. | Wright, W. |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Morrison, R C. (Tottenham, N.) | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Mosley, Sir Oswald | |
| Greenall, T. | Oliver, George Harold | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Palin, John Henry | Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Charles |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Edwards. |
| Division No. 200.] | AYES. | [8.54 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Frece, Sir Walter de | Neville, Sir Reginald J. |
| Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Albery, Irving James | Ganzoni, Sir John | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) |
| Apsley, Lord | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Oakley, T. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Atkinson, C. | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Griffith, F. Kingsley | Perring, Sir William George |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Grotrian, H. Brent | Pilcher, G. |
| Bennett, Albert (Nottingham, C.) | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Preston, Sir Walter (Cheltenham) |
| Berry, Sir George | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Bethel, A. | Hanbury, C. | Radford, E. A. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Harland, A. | Ramsden, E. |
| Bevan, S. J. | Hartington, Marquess of | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Remer, J. R. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Henderson,Capt.R.R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Brass, Captain W. | Hills, Major John Waller | Salmon, Major I. |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Hilton, Cecil | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Savery, S. S. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Skelton, A. N. |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dlae.'C.) |
| Buchan, John | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Burman, J. B. | Iveagh, Countess of | Smithers, Waldron |
| Caine, Gordon Hall | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G.F. |
| Campbell, E. T. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Lamb, J. Q | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Christie, J. A. | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Clayton, G. C. | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Long, Major Eric | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D | Looker, Herbert William | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen South) |
| Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vera | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Tinne, J. A. |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Lumley, L. R. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington,N.) | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Tomlinson, R. P. |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | MacIntyre, Ian | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsay,Gainsbro) | McLean, Major A. | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Macmillan, Captain H. | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil) | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Wells, S. R. |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple- |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Margesson, Captain D. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Withers, John James |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Ellis, R. G. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Wragg, Herbert |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Morris, R. H. | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | |
| Fermoy, Lord | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Forrest, W. | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Major Sir William Cope and Mr. |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Nelson, Sir Frank | Penny. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Cape, Thomas | Groves, T. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Charleton, H. C. | Grundy, T. W. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Clarke, A. B. | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) |
| Ammon, Charles George | Cluse, W. S. | Hardle, George D. |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) | Connolly, M. | Harris, Percy A. |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Dalton, Hugh | Hayday, Arthur |
| Barnes, A. | Dalton, Ruth (Bishop Auckland) | Hayes, John Henry |
| Barr, J. | Duncan, C. | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) |
| Batey, Joseph | Dunnico, H. | Hirst, G. H. |
| Bellamy, A. | Gardner, J. P. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) |
| Benn, Wedgwood | Gibbins, Joseph | Hollins, A. |
| Bennett, William (Battersea, South) | Gillett, George M. | Hore-Belisha, Leslie |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) |
| Briant, Frank | Greenall, T. | John, William (Rhondda, West) |
| Bromley, J. | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) |
| Buchanan, G. | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Kelly, W. T. |
| Kennedy, T. | Potts, John S. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Ritson, J. | Taylor, R. A. |
| Lansbury, George | Saklatvala, Shapurji | Thorne, W. (West Ham Plaistow) |
| Lawrence, Susan | Scrymgeour, E. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Lawson, John James | Scurr, John | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Lee, F. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Lindley, F. W. | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Longbottom, A. W. | Shinwell, E. | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Lowth, T. | Sitch, Charles H. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Lunn, William | Slesser, Sir Henry H. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Mackinder, w. | Snell, Harry | Windsor, Walter |
| MacLaren, Andrew | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip | Wright, W. |
| Maxton, James | Stamford, T. W. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Stephen, Campbell | |
| Oliver, George Harold | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Palin, John Henry | Strauss, E. A. | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. |
| Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Sullivan, J. | Whiteley. |
§ Colonel ASHLEYI beg to move, in page 153, line 18, to leave out from the beginning to the end of line 22.
This Amendment proposes to leave out the definition of "half-year," which at present appears in the Schedule. Originally, certain payments were to have been made by equal monthly instalments in each half-year, but as these payments are now to be made monthly on an annual basis, this definition is unnecessary and redundant.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Colonel ASHLEYI beg to move, in page 153, line 22, at the end, to insert the words:
'Iron or steel works' means works which consist wholly or mainly of blast furnaces, puddling furnaces, steel furnaces, or rolling mills, or of hammers or presses which produce all or any of the following articles, that is to say, forgings weighing not less than 10 hundredweight, blooms, billets, and bars.This is a definition of "iron or steel works" which is taken exactly out of Parts III and IV of the Schedule as it left Committee. It is thought better to put in the definition here as being more convenient for purposes of reference, and it also helps to lighten the rather complicated Parts III and IV of the Schedule and makes them easier to read.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI beg to move, in page 154, line 22, at the end, to insert the words:
'Shipped coastwise,' in relation to exported coal, coke, or patent fuel, means shipped from a place within the British Islands to another place within those islands.
§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYDoes this include the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERYes, I think that has always been so in regard to the definition of "coastwise," for this purpose.
§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYWith great respect, I think that, legally, the term "British Islands" would not include the Channel Islands; but if I have the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman that this definition will be taken as including them, I am quite satisfied.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI beg to move, in page 154, line 23, at the end, to insert the words:
'Washery' means works for washing or cleaning coal.This definition is inserted in order to make it clear that the word "washery" is to include not only a wet washery, but any process of cleaning coal.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Colonel ASHLEYI beg to move, in page 155, line 16, to leave out the words "relating to charges" and to insert instead thereof the words:
all payments by any of the companies to the fund in accordance with the provisions of this Schedule shall be treated as payments of rates and.This Amendment is in order to bring this paragraph of the Schedule into line with paragraphs 19 and 20, and to prevent this scheme interfering with the ordinary rates charged under the Act of 1921.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Colonel ASHLEYI beg to move, in page 156, line 2, to leave out the words "agricultural purposes," and to insert instead thereof the words "use as manure."
677 This is to make it clear, if it was not clear before, that these particular agricultural selected traffics, namely, limestone, chalk, basic slag, and salt, are only to get the rebate if they are used for manure.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYDoes this cover the salt used for manuring purposes only? Is it not used for a feeding stuff as well?
§ Colonel ASHLEYSalt used as feeding stuff is not included.
§ Colonel ASHLEYThis is only salt used for manure.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Colonel ASHLEYI beg to move, in page 156, to leave out lines 7 to 27, and to insert instead thereof the words:
| "Grain, ground or flaked | Used in Great Britain for livestock or poultry feeding. |
| Oil cake, whole, broken, or ground | |
| Meals or husks, in cases, casks, or sacks | |
| Foods consisting of meals, with spice, molasses, or condiment | |
| Milling offals, included in the grain list in the Classification of Merchandise for conveyance by railway | |
| Treacle consigned direct to farmers | |
| Ensilage | |
| Hay | |
| Hay or straw, chopped | |
| Provender, consisting of chopped hay or straw, mixed with articles included in the grain list in the Classification of Merchandise for conveyance by railway | |
| Beetroot pulp (residue from sugar making) | |
| Carrots, mangel wurzel, or turnips, in bulk | |
| Grains, brewers' or distillers' (or draff) |
§ The allowances and rebates on the articles mentioned are for feeding stuffs used in Great Britain, so as to bring them into line with the items which we have been discussing at the bottom of page 155 and the top of page 156 of the Bill.
678§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI am sorry I do not see the Minister of Agriculture here, as I was told at Question Time that he would be here to discuss certain matters, and I want to protest against the fact that fish has been left out of this part of the Schedule. The hon. and gallant Member for Torquay (Commander Williams) also raised the point on the Committee stage, and I am surprised that since then nothing has been done to meet it. Here we have this long list of articles to aid agriculture, but the fishing industry, which has suffered great loss and is distressed at the present time, is being given no help at all. I had a question yesterday to the Prime Minister, as did the hon. Member for Plaistow (Mr. W. Thorne), with reference to the throwing into the sea of large quantities of fish taken into Buckie. I understand it was fish of poor quality, and one of the reasons given in the Press why it was not sent anywhere for food or other purposes was the high railway rates—
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERDoes the hon. and gallant Member suggest that fish is used for livestock or poultry feeding?
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERThe hon. and gallant Member is arguing more generally.
§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYFish used as feeding stuffs or as manure gets a rebate, but not if used as food for human beings. That is the whole point.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERIt may be a very interesting point, but the whole point here is what shall be included as feeding stuffs for livestock or poultry feeding. It is a Schedule of articles for that purpose.
§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYBut there is a number of other items also on this list to be used for human food, as, for example, potatoes, milk, and livestock, at the bottom of Part II of the Schedule. Fish is also included, but only if used for manuring fields, and not as human food, and I was pointing out the great waste of food that took place 679 owing to the high railway rate, namely, 18s. a cran, to carry the fish to the nearest curing port.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI do not see how the hon. and gallant Member can bring that in here. This Amendment is to add certain articles used for the feeding of poultry to the relieved category, but he cannot very well argue the question of fish on this Amendment.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYIt was the largest of these Amendments on the Paper, and I thought, therefore, it was the most convenient point.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYIt seemed to me to be an Amendment on which one could have protested, when so many things were added to the Bill or altered in so many ways, that the Minister of Agriculture had not asked for fish to be included. That was my only point in rising.
Commander WILLIAMSIn this list I see there is oil cake, which is composed of a good many different things, and I would like to ask whether those component parts are included in the term "oil cake," and if, supposing fish might be used for the manufacture of oil cake, we should be able under those circumstances to get our fish inserted in this particular Amendment. Why in the world have not the Government included the various foods for poultry which contain a very considerable amount of fish meal? It is a most valuable thing for poultry feeding. As we are not able to go into that discussion, which I had to take up for other people on the last occasion, I think there are one or two little points where I might be allowed to ask these questions, and I am sure someone on the Front Bench will be able to help me in the matter.
Mr. BENNI apologise for asking the Minister a question, because all these Amendments that cover some reams of paper are described as either drafting or consequential, but I want to ask a question of substance. What is the reason for using the word "used in Great Britain" only to those items to which 680 they are applied in the Amendment? Why not apply them to the potatoes, milk and live stock as well?
Lieut.-Colonel LAMBERT WARDAs the question of fish meal has been raised, I should like to get an assurance from the Minister that "meals or husks in cases, casks or sacks" will include fish meal when used for live stock or poultry feeding.
§ Brigadier-General CLIFTON BROWNI also should like to ask for a little more information. Near my constituency are the Twyford Mills, and I should like to ask the Minister if the balanced ration made by these mills out of the farmers' grain, and used instead of cake by many farmers in the neighbourhood, is included in this list in the Schedule. The material goes out in casks. It makes a great difference to the farmers of that district if this is included.
§ Colonel ASHLEYThe fish which goes to the manufacture of oil cakes will not be included. Oil cake is only included as long as it is used in Great Britain. With regard to the point raised by the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Benn), we do not want to confine the rebate to live stock for use in this country. We want to stimulate the export of good live stock overseas and, therefore, this is not a matter which should be confined to Great Britain. I am informed by the Ministry of Agriculture that potatoes and milk are for the same reason not included. You do not want to tie them down for use in this country.
§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERIt is a pity that when such important questions are being put the Minister of Agriculture is not here to reply in detail. We all have a very great liking for the Minister of Transport, but we do not wish to see him put into the position of having to reply on matters on which he is not au fait. Questions have been put whether relief ought to be extended to the constituent parts of such foodstuffs as oilcake, and that is a matter of considerable importance to a number of interests engaged in that trade. The point raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) is not confined to the question of excluding fish which is to be used for human consumption, but fish 681 which is to be used for the very large manufacture of fish meal for poultry food. The same thing applies to the various constituents used in the manufacture of balanced rations. It is of great importance to the inland mills which manufacture oilcake, and which have to import either the prime article, the oil kernel, or some manufacture which is passed on to them based upon the oil kernel. These manufactures should be enabled to obtain any relief which is available for articles of that kind. It is highly inconvenient for the House to have to come to a decision without the expert view of the Minister of Agriculture upon the matter.
§ Colonel ASHLEYI thank the hon. Gentleman for his kindly reference to myself. Obviously there must be a limit to the number of extra articles that can be put into any of these Schedules. The Government have gone a good way in various directions to meet the wishes of hon. Members and have put in quite a number of things. This long list is, after all, the same list as that in the Bill which emerged from the Committee. The Minister of Agriculture consulted all the interests connected with agriculture, and their considered opinion is that this Schedule meets their needs.
§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYWas the fishing industry consulted? Amendment agreed to.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI beg to move, in page 156, line 35, to leave out from the beginning, to the end of line 6,
§
page 157, and to insert instead thereof the words:
Exported coal, coke, or patent fuel.
Coal, coke, or patent fuel delivered to and used in iron or steel works.
Coal delivered to patent fuel works to the extent that it is exported as patent fuel after manufacture.
Coal delivered to a washery to the extent that it is, after being washed or cleaned, exported or delivered to iron or steel works.
Coal delivered to a coke oven (not being situated at iron or steel works) to the extent that it is, after being converted into coke at the coke oven, exported or delivered to iron or steel works.
§ This is the Amendment which we have already discussed. We have discussed whether the exempted traffic should be coal generally, or coal which is sent for export or to steel works, and the Amendment has been redrafted so as to cover all the coal which passes to the steel works in the way that I have explained.
§ Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERI beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 1, to leave out the word "Exported."
According to the arrangement that has been made for the convenience of the House, we have debated this matter.
§ Question put, "That the word 'Exported' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 182; Noes, 101.
683| Division No. 201.] | AYES. | [9.22 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Brassey, Sir Leonard | Crawfurd, H. E. |
| Ainsworth, Lieut-Col. Charles | Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Crooks, J. Smedley (Derltend) |
| Albery, Irving James | Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) |
| Apsley, Lord | Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent,Dover) | Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) |
| Atkinson, C. | Buchan, John | Dawson, Sir Philip |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Burman, J. B. | Dixey, A. C. |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Calne, Gordon Hall | Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert |
| Bennett, Albert (Nottingham, C.) | Campbell, E. T. | Eden, Captain Anthony |
| Bethel, A. | Carver, Major W. H. | Edmondson, Major A. J. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Elliot, Major Walter E. |
| Bevan, S. J. | Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Ellis, R. G. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Christle, J. A. | Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s.-M.) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Clayton, G. C. | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Cobb, Sir Cyril | Everard, W. Lindsay |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Fairfax, Captain J. G. |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Fermoy, Lord |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Forrest, W. |
| Brass, Captain W. | Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) | Fraser, Captain Ian |
| Frece, Sir Walter de | McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus | Salmon, Major I. |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | MacIntyre, Ian | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | McLean, Major A | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Macmillan, Captain H. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | Maltland, A. (Kent, Faversham) | Savery, S. S. |
| Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Skelton, A. N. |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.) |
| Grotrian, H. Brent | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Smithers, Waldron |
| Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Hanbury, C. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Harland, A. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Harris, Percy A. | Morris, R. H. | Strauss, E. A. |
| Hartington, Marquess of | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Stuart, Crichton., Lord C. |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Henderson, Capt. R.R.(Oxf'd,Henley) | Nelson, Sir Frank | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Hills, Major John Waller | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Tinne, J. A. |
| Hilton, Cecil | Oakley, T. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh | Tomlinson, R. P. |
| Hopkins, J. W. W. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Penny, Frederick George | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Iveagh, Countess of | Perring, Sir William George | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Plicher, G. | Wells, S. R. |
| King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Preston, Sir Walter (Cheltenham) | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple |
| Lamb, J. Q. | Price, Major C. W. M. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Radford, E. A. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Ramsden, E. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) | Withers, John James |
| Looker, Herbert William | Reid, D. D. (County Down) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Remer, J. R. | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Rentoul, G. S. | Wragg, Herbert |
| Lumley, L. R | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | |
| Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. | Sir William Cope and Captain Margesson. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Greenall, T. | Palin, John Henry |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Potts, John S. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Ritson, J. |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) | Grundy, T. W. | Saklatvala, Shapurji |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Barnes, A. | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Scurr, John |
| Barr, J. | Hardle, George D. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Batey, Joseph | Hayday, Arthur | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Bellamy, A. | Hayes, John Henry | Shinwell, E. |
| Benn, Wedgwood | Hirst, G. H. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Bennett, William (Battersea, South) | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Hollins, A. | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Snell, Harry |
| Briant, Frank | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Bromley, J. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Stamford, T. W. |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Buchanan, G | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Cape, Thomas | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Sullivan, J. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kelly, W. T. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Clarke, A. B. | Kennedy, T. | Taylor, R. A. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Connolly, M. | Lansbury, George | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Dalton, Hugh | Lawrence, Susan | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Dalton, Ruth (Bishop Auckland) | Lawson, John James | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Day, Harry | Lee, F. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Duncan, C. | Lindley, F. W. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Dunnico, H. | Longbottom, A. W. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Lowth, T. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Gardner, J. P. | Lunn William | Windsor, Walter |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Mackinder, W. | |
| Gillett, George M. | Maxton, James | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Whiteley. |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Oliver, George Harold |
§ Mr. CECIL WILSONI beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out from the word 684 "to" in line 2 to the end of the line, and to insert instead thereof the words: 685
any industrial establishment where coal, coke, or patent fuel is used in any process of manufacture or for purposes of transport.We discussed this question to some extent in Committee, and the purpose is provided for to a considerable extent in the Amendment on the Paper. There are industries which do a large amount of work which seem to be penalised by their omission from the Schedule as it is now proposed by the Minister. There is the case of the iron foundry producing some heavy castings for all kinds of purposes and using considerable quantities of coke, and to them no relief whatever is granted and they do not come under this category. Again, we have engineering works, shipbuilding yards and other places where a very considerable amount of fuel is used, and they get no relief whatever. In the case of the iron foundry, it may be said that they are getting their relief in the way of the iron used in blast furnaces, but they are not entirely dependent on that, because they are using very considerable quantities of scrap in addition.Then we have in mind two works belonging to the same firm, one of which will come under the Schedule but the other, doing work of a somewhat similar kind, will not come under the Schedule because it is being driven by electricity. One of the works in that case happens to be under the same firm, and therefore it may be said it does not suffer materially, but you have another case of the same kind, where the same condition applies, where there would seem to be very grave injustice. So you may see that in the case of one engineering works that is driven electrically from some public or other supply, they get no benefit whatever, whereas where you have got another works associated with iron and steel works, simply being driven by steam power, they get the benefit. In the same way, the Amendment proposes to extend the Schedule so as to cover the case of purposes of transport. In many of these industries there is a considerable amount of fuel used for transport purposes, and therefore the Amendment proposes to include that as well.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSI beg to second the Amendment.
My chief reason is, of course, that the passing of this Schedule will create yet 686 more internal competition among the mineowners than was the case before, and as that internal competition has been proved to be the chief reason for the destitution and poverty existing in the mining areas, it seems to me that we ought not to intensify that competition by means of any part of this Bill. Hon. Gentlemen will know that the Schedule as it stands deprives all those collieries that produce coal for gas purposes or for domestic purposes from any advantage at all under the Bill, while their competitors, who export a portion and sell the other portion to gas works, will be able to undercut them. The Secretary for Mines ought to have used his influence with his colleagues to see that intensified internal competition, resulting in the reduction of prices to an uneconomic level, and aggravating the poverty and destitution in the mining industry, should not be an outcome of anything contained in this Bill. I hope it is even yet not too late for a change of mind, and for words to be inserted which will dispose of the possibility of this intensified internal competition with its resultant reduced prices and lowered wages for the miners.
§ Commodore KINGThis matter was fully discussed on the Committee stage, and it is only necessary to say one or two words. I would point out to the House, with regard to the relief of railway rates, that there is only a certain amount of money which can go in this relief, and it was at the request of the industry, of the Miners' Federation and representatives of the miners themselves, that the relief was concentrated in the way in which it now appears in the Bill.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSIs it not a fact that a large body of coalowners made representations with regard to house coal and gas coal?
§ Commodore KINGNo; on the contrary, it was the opinion of the mining industry, owners and men, that the greatest amount of relief would be given to the industry by this concentration. When there is only a certain amount of money to be shared by an industry, I think everybody will agree that if it can be concentrated in the form now proposed the industry will get the greatest possible benefit. I would further remind hon. Members of what I said on the Committee stage as to the practical impos- 687 sibility, owing to administrative difficulties, of our making a distinction here between coal used throughout the country for industrial purposes and domestic coal. It is easy enough in the case of a large industry such as the iron and steel trade to earmark the coal which is going to be used in that industry; but in the case of industry generally throughout the country hon. Members opposite know full well that it is almost impossible to say what is the destination of the coal when a factor or an agent buys it. That is a practical difficulty which of itself would be fatal to the suggestion of the hon. Member, quite apart from the desire for concentration expressed by the industry.
§ Mr. KELLYOne has heard that interests were consulted and expressed their views to the Department. I wonder whether an expression of opinion was asked for from the heavy industries. I have not heard of the shipbuilding or engineering industry having had any voice in this matter. If coal for the iron and steel trades can be distinguished, surely it would be equally easy to distinguish the coal used for such heavy industries as engineering and shipbuilding. These great industries, which have been suffering for years, should have had whatever benefit there is to come out of this scheme—I am not sure there is a great deal to come out of it—if the Government meant to help industry. I certainly hope the Amendment will be supported.
§ Mr. LAWSONThe Secretary for Mines has made a statement for which I think we ought to have some documentary proof. He has stated that the Minors' Federation asked for this form of concentrated relief. Has he any proof of that statement?
§ Commodore KINGI certainly had no intention of saying the Miners' Federation but the Mining Associations and representatives of the men.
§ Mr. LAWSONIt is quite true that representatives of miners from certain coalfields did join the coal owners in asking for that, and it is true also that the Miners' Federation asked for some form of relief for the coal industry; but the House ought to understand that the Miners' Federation never did ask for the relief in a concentrated form. This is the kind of statement with which the 688 House is getting familiar. The President of the Board of Trade, when dealing with freight relief, said the Durham coal owners had actually asked for freight relief in a form which was going to exclude some of the collieries from the benefit of that relief and that was definitely turned down by the Durham coal owners themselves. They did ask for concentrated relief, but they did not ask for relief in a form which was going to exclude their fellow coal owners.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI quoted a resolution which was passed, and no one had ever denied that that resolution was passed. I must leave it at that.
§ Mr. LAWSONBut the coal owners who passed that resolution have very definitely denied that they agreed to the exclusion of the private railways from the arrangement, or that the resolution bore any such interpretation. The Secretary for Mines has been pointing out that this freight relief for export purposes has already had wonderful results. I am glad to say that the coal trade is doing better, as far as the North is concerned, and that there is a possibility of a few mines being opened. I do not care where that improvement comes from, so long as I see the industry going ahead and men being employed; but it would be very interesting for the Secretary for Mines or the President of the Board of Trade to explain how 7d. a ton relief gives an advance of 2s. or 3s. a ton in price in about a month? The improvement in the coal trade, as put by the trade newspapers of the North, arises from causes far outside this de-rating Bill. The sole cause of the rise in price is the frost.
When the de-rating relief was being dealt with a member of a Conservative party pointed out that what was being proposed would be unfair to cotton and woollen manufacturers in this country who would have to meet unfair competition from abroad. What we wish to do is to enlarge the scope of this proposal so that all industrial establishments using coal will get the benefit. A member of the Conservative party actually pointed out that the policy being adopted would give cheap coal to foreign competitors and that this would inflict a great injury on our home industries. Why should we give special 689 terms to our foreign competitors when the greater part of the coal is used for home trade purposes?
If the principles of the Conservative party mean anything at all they mean that we should support home production and British production as against foreign production. Experience shows that causes altogether outside the de-rating proposals have come into operation in the world's market. Those causes have affected the coal trade, and I think it would have been much better if this relief had been given to the industries in this country instead of to our competitors abroad. The de-rating relief has not affected our position in the world's market. I have great pleasure in supporting this Amendment. Whether you are dealing with industries or with the people the policy of the Government should be to help the people of this country. It is a very strange proceeding for a Government which spends half its time in safeguarding small industries to be giving relief to foreign competitors which has the effect of closing down some of our home industries.
§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERThe discussion of this Amendment illustrates the truth which we have put forward again and again from this side of the House that this Bill is full of anomalies and inconsistencies. The reply of the Secretary for Mines was confined to the point that it was essential to keep the form of the original Amendment, because the trade wanted to concentrate the relief. The Government are not sticking to that policy in all the Schedules of the Bill.
§ Take the Schedule of relief to the agricultural industry and you will find that whilst you may have in mind concentration on relief to agriculture as a whole, you have the division so widespread amongst the various industries that it is practically of no avail, and you do not concentrate the relief.
§ I will deal with the iron and steel industry. We are very much concerned with the iron and steel industry in Sheffield, and in my opinion the conditions we are laying down will raise a whole crop of trouble amongst supporters of the Government in Sheffield. Under the definition which has been inserted in this Measure iron and steel works will be the only works to be relieved and under this further Amendment the relief will be confined to furnaces responsible for producing forgings weighing not less than 10 hundredweight. The result will be that many manufacturers will not get any relief in this direction at all, and they will have a real grievance. I do not think that this kind of dole given out in penny numbers to industry is going to have any effect whatever upon the general prosperity of industry. All these invidious distinctions which are to be found in this Bill with regard to the relief to be doled out to industry will fail, and you will only produce petty squabbles and log-rolling which ought not to be associated with British industry.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 177; Noes, 102.
691| Division No. 202.] | AYES. | [9.53 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) |
| Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles | Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) |
| Albery, Irving James | Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil) |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Davies, sir Thomas (Cirencester) |
| Apsley, Lord | Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Dawson, Sir Philip |
| Ashley, Lt. Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Dixey, A. C. |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Buchan, John | Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Burman, J. B. | Eden, Captain Anthony |
| Atkinson, C. | Calne, Gordon Hall | Edmondson, Major A. J. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Campbell, E. T. | Elliot, Major Walter E. |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Carver, Major W. H. | Ellis, R. G. |
| Bennett, Albert (Nottingham, C.) | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Ladywood) | Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-S.-M.) |
| Bethel, A. | Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Christle, J. A. | Everard, W. Lindsay |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Clayton, G. C. | Fairfax, Captain J. G. |
| Blundell, F N. | Cobb, Sir Cyril | Fermoy, Lord |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Forrest, W. |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Fraser, Captain Ian |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Frece, Sir Walter de |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. |
| Brass, Captain W. | Crawfurd, H. E. | Ganzoni, Sir John |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | Macmillan, Captain H. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Grotrian, H. Brent | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Savery, S. S. |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Skelton, A. N. |
| Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.) |
| Hanbury, C. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Harland, A. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Smithers, Waldron |
| Hartington, Marquess of | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Morris, R. H. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | Storry Deans, R. |
| Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Nelson, Sir Frank | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Hills, Major John Waller | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Hilton, Cecil | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Tinne, J. A. |
| Hopkins, J. W. W. | Oakley, T. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh | Tomlinson, R. P. |
| Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Penny, Frederick George | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Iveagh, Countess of | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Perring, Sir William George | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Pilcher, G. | Wells, S. R. |
| Lamb, J. Q. | Preston, Sir Walter (Cheltenham) | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple |
| Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Price, Major C. W. M. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Radford, E. A. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Ramsden, E. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Looker, Herbert William | Held, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) | Withers, John James |
| Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Reid, D. D. (County Down) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Luce, Maj. Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Remer, J. R. | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Lumley, L. R. | Rentoul, G. S. | Wragg, Herbert |
| MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | |
| Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. | Major Sir William Cope and Captain |
| MacIntyre, Ian | Salmon, Major I. | Margesson. |
| McLean, Major A. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Ponsonby, Arthur |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Grundy, T. W. | Potts, John S. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Ritson, J. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Hardle, George D. | Saklatvala, Shapurji |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) | Harris, Percy A. | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Barnes, A. | Hayday, Arthur | Scurr, John |
| Barr, J. | Hayes, John Henry | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Batey, Joseph | Hirst, G. H. | Shepherd, Arthur Lewie |
| Bellamy, A. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Shinwell, E. |
| Benn, Wedgwood | Hollins, A. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Bennett, William (Battersea, South) | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Snell, Harry |
| Bromley, J. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Stamford, T. W. |
| Buchanan, G. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Cape, Thomas | Kelly, W. T. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kennedy, T. | Strauss, E. A. |
| Clarke, A. B. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Sullivan, J. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lansbury, George | Sutton, J. E. |
| Connolly, M. | Lawrence, Susan | Taylor, R. A. |
| Dalton, Hugh | Lawson, John James | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Dalton, Ruth (Bishop Auckland) | Lee, F. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Day, Harry | Lindley, F. W. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Duncan, C. | Longbottom, A. W. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) |
| Dunnico, H. | Lowth, T. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Gardner, J. P. | Lunn, William | Whiteley, W. |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Mackinder, W. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Gillett, George M. | MacLaren, Andrew | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Maxton, James | Windsor, Walter |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Greenall, T. | Oliver, George Harold | |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Palin, John Henry | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. T. Henderson. |
§ Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.
693§ Colonel ASHLEYI beg to move, in page 157, to leave out from the word "Works," in line 14, column 2, to the end of line 22.
This Amendment is consequential on an earlier Amendment to insert a definition of iron and steel works in paragraph 16, which renders unnecessary and redundant the words which I now move to leave out.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Mr. RENNIE SMITHI beg to move, in page 157, line 25, column 1, at the end, to insert the words:
Unmanufactured grain, consigned direct to millers.I do not propose to detain the House for more than a minute, because this matter was discussed with the Minister of Agriculture on the occasion of the Second Reading of the Bill. The effect of this Amendment, if the Minister decides to accept it, would be to put those millers who have their manufacturing establishments away from the coast on the same level as millers on the coast for the purposes of rendering service to British agriculture. It is probably unnecessary to remind the Minister that the inland millers are just as patriotic and anxious to assist the revival of agriculture, and to arrest the tendency among the farmers to recede from the Tory party, as are the port millers. The Minister of Agriculture, when I submitted this case to him, admitted the inequity of the position, and the only excuse that he offered was that, if he put the inland millers on the same footing as the coast and port millers, he might in that way be encouraging the use of foreign grain at the expense of British grain.He was persuaded, as I understand, before his speech was concluded, that he was incorrect in that view, and, therefore, we may assume that the position of the Minister of Agriculture is that he admits the inequity, and that the only plea that he can make is that, if he were to attempt to remedy it, he would be obliged on principle to attempt it for a hundred others. On these grounds he would not yield to persuasions from this side. I presume that he went away to think about the matter, and I have some hope that the Minister of Health will not take the view of the Minister of 694 Agriculture, that, because there are a hundred injustices in this Bill, it is not worth while to remedy one of them. This is not a very important Amendment as things go, but it would please the farmers and the inland millers, and, if we may say that in round figures there are a hundred faults in the Bill, it would reduce the number to ninety-nine.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI beg to second the Amendment.
I think it is appropriate that I should do so, because in my constituency there is one of the biggest groups of Hour mills in the country, and it might be supposed at the first glance that they would get some advantage. I have been asked by the Corn Trade Association to press again on the Minister of Transport or whoever is in charge of this part of the Bill the inequity which has been described by the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Rennie Smith). They feel very strongly that it is unfair that because this Schedule was arranged simply it negotiation with the National Farmers' Union and the railway companies, therefore it cannot be departed from. Again and again we have been up against that trouble. A bargain is made behind the scenes by the Minister of Transport with the National Farmers' Union and I am quite convinced in this case that has been done. I repeat what I said earlier, that if no satisfaction can be given now, perhaps when this system is in full working order and these anomalies have been established, if the Government are in a position to do so, then they will agree to alter this.
§ Colonel ASHLEYDo I understand that the millers in Hull have an advantage over anybody else?
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYNo, it is the corn traders in Hull. The millers in Hull do not depend on it at all.
§ Mr. TOMLINSONPerhaps there is more in this Amendment than hon. Members realise. It is quite true, as has been said here to-day, that as the Schedule now stands—I do not want to criticise the Schedule as a whole; I think it has been excellently drawn by the Ministers and those concerned—on this particular point it is open to Amendment. There are many farmers who use feeding-stuffs for their dairy cattle, not only oil cake, which includes compound 695 cakes, but Indian meal and ground maize. A farmer using ground maize would rather have that maize ground by the country miller, with whom he is dealing, than at the port, because he has confidence in the country miller. Under this Schedule, however, the port miller gets an advantage as against the country miller, because in the case of maize that is being sent from Liverpool to Lancaster or to Wales, the miller at the port, if he takes the maize in and grinds it, gets 10 per cent. relief on the meal that is sent to Wales or Lancaster. If, however, the maize is sent direct to Lancaster or Wales, and is ground there, the country miller does not get the relief. The Minister of Transport would be ready to acknowledge that that is giving under this Schedule an advantage to the port miller and is a disadvantage to the country miller. If the right hon. Gentleman can only find some method of redressing that grievance it would be equitable all round.
§ Colonel ASHLEYIn the first place, may I point out to the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Rennie Smith) that the Amendment is in an extraordinary place? He is moving to put in Part IV, which deals with iron ore, and so on, delivered to iron and steel works, an item dealing with unmanufactured grain consigned direct to millers. That seems rather a difficult proposition to understand.
§ Mr. RENNIE SMITHI am quite willing, and I am sure my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) would be willing also, to put it at the end of Clause 120.
§ Colonel ASHLEYI am afraid that that is not possible now. If this Amendment were inserted in the Schedule, it would be hard that a very considerable proportion of the rebate of the iron and steel works should be taken up and given to unmanufactured grain supplied direct to millers. This is an arguable point, but the House must remember that as far as the millers are concerned a good proportion of the grain with which they deal comes from the surrounding districts and goes direct to them.
§ Mr. TOMLINSONThe point with which I was dealing was with regard to 696 maize. I did not speak at all about grain grown in the surrounding district.
§ Colonel ASHLEYNo doubt if this Amendment were passed there would be a certain advantage given to foreign grain which it does not now possess when it is sent from the port to the inland miller. It seems to me that the Mover of the Amendment and the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull were rather in disagreement, because the hon. Member who moved the Amendment said that the poor, unfortunate miller would suffer compared with the miller at the port, whereas the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull said that his millers had no advantage over those in inland towns. It seems to me, therefore, that their arguments are mutually destructive.
§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYWhere my constituency is hit is that we want to import more maize, although I am afraid that would be against the home farmer.
§ Colonel ASHLEYThese Schedules were settled and the items agreed upon with the interests of the agricultural industry; not only with the Farmers' Union but with all the other interests that could possibly be consulted by my right hon. Friend. As I said on the previous Amendment, you cannot go on extending these freight reliefs to all and sundry; if you do that you dissipate the amount of money which can be given to that particular section of the industry. Therefore, my right hon. Friend having thought over this matter since the Committee stage, has asked me to say he is very sorry he cannot accept the Amendment.
§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERThe Minister of Transport has again illustrated the handicap under which the House suffers from not having the Minister of Agriculture present. I agree that the Minister of Agriculture could not have perhaps given any different decision, but he might have been expected to know exactly what was going to be covered by the Amendment. He would have known that the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr. Tomlinson) was really referring to the meal made from imported maize, but that did not seem to strike the Minister of Transport. The Government are failing to appreciate the fact that this particular Amendment, like other Amendments which have been moved, has not been moved entirely in 697 the interests of the inland millers. It has been moved in the interests of the farmers, as much as in the interests of the inland millers. Undoubtedly the port millers are getting special reliefs upon such matters as offal. When the farmer goes to the inland millers with whom he has intimate trading relationships, very often on a trade basis, he is told by those millers that they are prepared to reduce the price of the offal produced by the inland mill to compete with the price of the offal now obtainable at the port mill.
The next stage is when the farmer who has relationships with the inland miller or with the corn merchant wants to sell his grain, for which he finds a very poor market at the port, and to which in many cases he cannot afford to send the grain from his locality and pay carriage upon it, he is told that, as the inland miller has had to come down in price for offal and feeding stuffs to compete with the mill at the port, which has been subsidised, he can only afford to give lower price for the grain which the farmer is selling to the inland mill. That is applying not only to wheat but to barley, and if anyone examines the price lists in the last few weeks since these rebates were put into operation and sees the fall in the price offered for home grain he will see that really the advantage given by the Government to the port miller is reacting against the local interest of the farmer who has direct relationship with the inland miller and the corn merchant.
We are looking at this, not in the interest of the miller but in the interest of the general farming community. If you are going to start spreading relief as you have in the case of the agricultural Schedule, there seems to be no earthly reason why you should not put the farmer who has trading relationships with the inland miller upon as good a footing as those who have direct relation-
§ ships with the port miller, and if there was any case for concentration at all, surely it would be very much better if you wiped out all these pettifogging reliefs and concentrated upon one relief, as was suggested by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank), say, upon some essential thing for agriculture, like fertilisers, instead of which, under the present arrangement, the relief on fertilisers is so insignificant as hardly to be appreciable. I have a circular from people dealing with Chilian nitrates who say they will be passing on the relief of 1s. a ton. I looked up my price-list and I find the price for that kind of fertiliser is £10 to £10 15s. a ton, and as a ton covers from 10 to 15 acres, this wonderful relief is something less than a penny an acre. If there is anything in the case that has been put up again and again from the Government bench that these reliefs can best be passed on with effective results to industry by concentration, surely it ought to be practised in the case of agriculture. But as the Government, in the case of agriculture, has seen fit to spread the relief over a whole range of commodities, there seems to be no case at all for leaving out the plea of the inland miller and the farmer who is associated with him, that they should be put on exactly the same footing as the port miller.
§ Mr. LAMBOn a point of Order. Is it in order to discuss the question from the point of view of feeding stuffs for farmers? Should not that come under another portion of the Bill?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Gentleman was only using that as an illustration.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 109; Noes, 171.
701| Division No. 203.] | AYES | [10.20 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Bromley, J. | Dunnico, H. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff, Cannock) | Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Forrest, W. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Buchanan, G. | Gardner, J. P. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Cape, Thomas | Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) | Charieton, H. C. | Gibbins, Joseph |
| Barnes, A. | Clarke, A. B. | Gillett, George M. |
| Barr, J. | Cluse, W. S. | Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) |
| Batey, Joseph | Connolly, M. | Greenall, T. |
| Bellamy, A. | Crawfurd, H. E. | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) |
| Benn, Wedgwood | Dalton, Hugh | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) |
| Bennett, William (Battersea, South) | Dalton, Ruth (Bishop Auckland) | Griffith, F. Kingsley |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Day, Harry | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) |
| Bowerman, Bt. Hon. Charles W. | Duncan, C. | Grundy, T. W. |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Longbottom, A. W. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Lowth, T. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Hardie, George D. | Lunn, William | Stephen, Campbell |
| Harris, Percy A. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Hayday, Arthur | Mackinder, W. | Strauss, E. A. |
| Hayes, John Henry | MacLaren, Andrew | Sullivan, J. |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Maxton, James | Sutton, J. E. |
| Hirst, G. H. | Morris, R. H. | Taylor, R. A. |
| Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Hollins, A. | Mosley, Sir Oswald | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Oliver, George Harold | Tomlinson, R. P. |
| Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Palin, John Henry | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Viant, S. P. |
| John, William (Rhondda, West) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Potts, John S. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Ritson, J. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Scrymgeour, E. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffs) |
| Kelly, W. T. | Scurr, John | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Kennedy, T. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) | Windsor, Walter |
| Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Lansbury, George | Shinwell, E. | |
| Lawrence, Susan | Sitch, Charles H. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Lawson, John James | Slesser, Sir Henry H. | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. |
| Lee, F. | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) | Whiteley. |
| Lindley, F. W. | Snell, Harry | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) |
| Albery, Irving James | Everard, W. Lindsay | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Waldea) |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Fermoy Lord | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. |
| Apsley, Lord | Fraser, Captain Ian | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Frece, Sir Walter de | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Nelson, Sir Frank |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Ganzonl, Sir John | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Atkinson, C. | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Oakley, T. |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Grotrian, H. Brent | O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Bennett, Albert (Nottingham, C.) | Hanbury, C. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Bethel, A. | Harland, A. | Perring, Sir William George |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Hartington, Marquess of | Plicher, G. |
| Bevan, S. J. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Preston, Sir Walter (Cheltenham) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian | Radford, E. A. |
| Bowater, Colonel Sir T. Vansittart | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Hills, Major John Waller | Ramsden, E. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Hilton, Cecil | Reld, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) |
| Brass, Captain W. | Holbrook, sir Arthur Richard | Remer, J. R. |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Iveagh, Countess of | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks,Newb'y) | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Burman, J. B. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Campbell, E. T. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Savery, S. S. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Lamb, J. Q. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Ktnc'dlne, C.) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Smithers, Waldron |
| Christle, J. A. | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Clayton, G. C. | Looker, Herbert William | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Lougher, Lewis | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vers | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Lumley, L. R. | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N) | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.) |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | MacDonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell |
| Crookshank, Col C. de W. (Berwick) | McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus | Tinne, J. A. |
| Crookshank,Cpt.H.(Lindsay, Gainsbro) | MacIntyre, I. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Davies, Maj. Geo.F.(Somerset,Yeovil) | McLean, Major A. | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Macmillan, Captain H. | Ward, Lt.-Col.A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Dixey, A. C. | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Maltland, A. (Kent, Faversham) | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Makins, Brigadier-General K. | Wells, S. R. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple |
| Ellis, R. G. | Margesson, Captain D. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-e.-M.) | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George | Wragg, Herbert | Mr. Penny and Sir Victor Warrender. |
| Withers, John James | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) | |
| Wolmer, Viscount |
Resolution agreed to.