CLAUSE 44.—(First general review of districts by county councils.) (Hansard, 13 February 1929)

§ Mr. RENNIE SMITH
I beg to move, in page 40, to leave out lines 8 to 13.
503 The effect of this Clause is to add to the powers of the county boroughs and county councils with regard to the modification of existing county districts. It brings in county boroughs for, as far as I know, the first time in the history of local government with powers over the boundaries of urban and rural districts; and it obliges the county council to consult the county boroughs with regard to county areas. It is from the point of view of protecting the lesser authorities that I have moved this Amendment. The Minister will agree that the power which the county boroughs already possess, either of promoting a Bill or of using the method of a provisional order, are quite sufficient to meet all reasonable purposes. The power given in this Clause will bring confusion between the county borough and the county councils, and will put the lesser authorities very much under the control of the county boroughs. The effect of my Amendment would be to leave the powers of the county boroughs where they are, and safeguard the existing powers of the county council; above all it would offer a certain element of protection to the urban and rural districts, which would seem to be left off the map in the plans of the Minister.

§ Mr. W. THORNE
I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN
The hon. Member has given an extraordinary account of the effect of this Clause. What induces him to say that the urban and rural districts are left off the map in this proposal I cannot imagine, because if he reads the subsequent Sub-section he will see that they are given specific powers to make representations, and the county council have to send to everyone of them a copy of their proposals at the time that they are submitted to the Minister. He also went on to speak of the powers of the county boroughs. This Clause does not provide the county boroughs with powers. It provides that the county councils, before making any proposals, shall consult with the county boroughs, and that the Minister shall give them an opportunity of laying before him their views on the proposal. Surely the hon. Member does not pretend that the county boroughs have no interest in the rearrangement of county districts proposed by the county council. 504 If it be once granted that this is a matter of interest to the county boroughs, it will be agreed that it is only prudent that at the earliest opportunity the county should make itself acquainted with what are the views of the county boroughs. Nothing in the Clause says that the county councils must adopt the views of the county boroughs. All it says is that the county council must ascertain their views, and that then the county boroughs will have an opportunity of making their representations to the Minister. I would remind the hon. Member, as he stresses the point, that the Royal Commission made this very recommendation. They said: It should be the duty of the county council, before making representations to the Minister, to consult the councils of the county boroughs within the geographical county, and the county boroughs should have an opportunity of laying before the Minister their views upon the proposals of the county council. All classes of local authorities were represented on that Royal Commission, and they were unanimous in this recommendation. What we have done is to follow out that recommendation, and in doing so we are only acting in the interest of the various local authorities concerned.

Mr. GREENWOOD
The real point of this Amendment is that the treatment to be accorded to the county boroughs is different from the treatment to be accorded to the minor local authorities who are more especially affected. It is true that they may make representations and that the county council has to inform them of its decision, but making representations and having consultations need not mean the same thing. It would appear that the local authorities are rather slighted. The county boroughs, being large and important, are to be brought into consultation, which means that they are to meet the county councils face to face, and their power is such that their influence would be considerable on the county council. Urban and rural districts, however, may make representations, and all that follows is that the county council is to inform them of its proposals. That seems to be treating the minor local authorities with less courtesy than they deserve. I am not against consultations between the county councils and the county boroughs be- 505 cause, as the right hon. Gentleman said, the county boroughs are obviously affected, but the minor local authorities are equally affected. Indeed, their interest is perhaps greater than that of the county boroughs, and one would have thought that they would all have been put on the same footing. There should rather have been a round table conference and the same opportunities of consultation afforded to the minor authorities as to the county boroughs. It is clear that making representations and having consultations mean different things. If they do not, I do not see any reason why the words should be in. I think, therefore, that my hon. Friend is justified in raising this point, and I hardly think that the Minister has met his difficulty.

§ Mr. LOOKER
I have been in close touch with these authorities, and, as far as I know, they have no complaint to make about the provisions of this particular part of the Bill. Before a county council makes any proposal, they must have a conference with the councils of the districts concerned, at which the councils will have an opportunity of putting forward their views. They are quite satisfied that the county council will give due consideration to their representations. Suppose that in the end they are not satisfied with the proposals; they have an opportunity of seeing the proposals as soon as they are made, and, if they are dissatisfied, they may at once make representations to the Minister, upon whose judgment they are quite content to rely to see that their interests are protected. I can assure the hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment that if they had any grievance in respect of this provision, they would undoubtedly have put forward some Amendments, but this they have not thought it necessary to do.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN
I beg to move, in page 40, line 16, after the first word "of," to insert the words "another district or."
The purpose of this Amendment is to correct a slight error in the drafting, because it may be desirable that the proposal should include the transfer of the 506 whole of an urban district as well as part of an urban district.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN
I beg to move, in page 41, line 1, after the word "if," to insert the words either on representations made by a district council or otherwise.

§ Mr. MARDY JONES
What is the meaning of the word "otherwise"? Does it mean that any interested body of persons can raise a point in addition to a district council?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN
We are not changing the words in the Clause, but merely the order of the words.

§ Mr. JONES
I understand that, but I wish to be clear as to the meaning of the word "otherwise" Does that mean that any body of ratepayers or interested body of persons in the county can make representations as well as the district councils?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN
Yes, certainly.

Mr. BENN
I notice that in Subsection (7) it is provided that an Order shall be laid before Parliament. Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us the Parliamentary value of that?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN
Is that relevant to this Amendment?

Mr. BENN
If you are altering boundaries; and the Minister has to make—

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN
We are not altering boundaries, but merely the order of certain words at the beginning of Subsection (5).

Mr. BENN
The Minister is trying to shelter himself behind a point of Order. Whatever his intention, he is moving certain words, and one of the subsequent provisions of those words concerns Orders, and I am asking him the value which the laying of these Orders has, when it is made in accordance with Subsection (7).

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN
I do not really understand at what the hon. Member is driving. What the laying of the Order before Parliament has to do with the alteration of the order of words in Subsection (5), I fail to see.

Mr. BENN
It seemed to me a means of saving time to ask the Minister, instead of moving a separate Amendment, inasmuch as it is germane to the subject, what Parliamentary control is conferred by this power of laying an Order on the Table?

§ Sir HENRY SLESSER
It is much more ungrammatical to put in a conditional phrase in the middle of another conditional phrase than to leave the words as they are. It is better to say, "If it appears to the Minister either on the representation than "If either on representations it appears to the Minister."

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN
I am acting upon the advice of the Parliamentary draftsman. In answer to the hon. Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Benn), he will find this procedure with regard to Orders in Clause 119.

Mr. BENN
They are nut covered by Clause 119 at all. This Sub-section (7) is a complete farce, because the Minister lays an Order and nothing occurs.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN
It will be a matter for Parliament.