HC Deb 13 February 1929 vol 225 cc449-56
Colonel ASHLEY

I beg to move, in page 28, line 23, to leave out the words "according to the last census for the time being."

The House will remember that when we were discussing this Bill in Committee, the point was raised that it was rather unfair upon certain urban district councils that they should not be able to claim to exercise the functions under this Clause, because the means of ascertaining the size of their population was the last census. That would undoubtedly cut out a certain number of important urban districts which now have a population of 25,000 or 30,000. Therefore, I promised consideration of an hon. Member's suggestion that we should take the estimated population according to the Registrar-General. It would have been better, of course, to have been able to take the year 1929, but the Registrar-General's estimate is always twelve months in arrear, and, therefore, we are obliged to take the year 1928. This Amendment simply carries out the pledge given that instead of the census being taken, the Registrar-General's estimate should be taken, and, therefore, a good many urban district councils will be brought in who would otherwise be cut out.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. LOOKER

I beg to move, in page 28, line 29, after the word "and," to insert the words: shall continue to be, or shall become, the highway authority as respects that road, and. Under Clause 28 the county council is constituted the highway authority for all roads which now become county roads but under this Clause certain urban district councils with a population exceeding 20,000 are given the right to claim to exercise the functions of maintenance and repair of such county roads. If anybody could properly be described as the highway authority in respect of any roads, it naturally would be the authority responsible for their maintenance and repair. Apart from that, it is possible that there may be some powers necessarily exercised by the authority maintaining the road incident to the expression "the highway authority," and which the urban district claiming these roads would not possess unless they were constituted the highway authority. Therefore, the object of this Amendment is to constitute them the highway authority, instead of the county council, in all cases where they have exercised their right to maintain and repair the roads within their area.

Dr. DAVIES

I beg to second the Amendment.

Colonel ASHLEY

I accept this Amendment, which seems to be quite reasonable. If a road is vested in an urban district council, it is quite reasonable that that council should be the highway authority.

Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether this affects the point I raised yesterday with regard to roads?

Colonel ASHLEY

It does not affect that.

Amendment agreed to.

Colonel ASHLEY

I beg to move, in page 28, line 31, after the second word "of," to insert the words "and other dealing with."

This is really a drafting Amendment to remove any doubt as to the powers of the claiming authority in this matter. It simply gives them complete powers.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

In page 28, leave out from the word "thousand," in line 36, to the word "and," in line 38, and insert instead thereof the words "at the appointed day."

In page 29, line 3, leave out the words "subsequent census," and insert instead thereof the words "census subsequent to the appointed day."—[Colonel Ashley.]

Colonel ASHLEY

I beg to move, in page 29, line 7, at the end, to insert the words: (c) in the case of an Act or Order being made adding an area to an existing urban district of which the population exceeds twenty thousand within twelve months after the date when the Act or Order takes effect. This Amendment enables an urban authority which already exceeds 20,000 population to exercise claiming powers in respect of any county roads which may be added to their area.

Amendment agreed to.

Colonel ASHLEY

I beg to move, in page 29, line 9, after the word "or," to insert the words "of an Act or Order."

This is really a drafting Amendment, because sometimes extensions are made under an Act and not by an Order, and this will enable it to be either an Act or an Order.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

In page 29, line 13, leave out the words "according to the last census for the time being."

In line 15, after the second word "the," insert the words "Act or."—[Colonel Ashley.]

Colonel ASHLEY

I beg to move, in page 29, line 18, to leave out the words the last foregoing paragraph," and to insert instead thereof the words "any of the last three foregoing paragraphs. In the Amendment on the Order Paper, the words are "two foregoing paragraphs." This must now be changed to three, because we have put in another paragraph.

Amendment agreed to.

Colonel ASHLEY

I beg to move, in page 29, line 29, to leave out the word "such," and to insert instead thereof the word "any."

Although technically a drafting Amendment, this is, if I may be Irish, consequential on a subsequent Amendment in my name, in page 29, line 38, after the word "council," to insert the words: (b) being situate in a county within which at the commencement of this Act there was in force a local Act empowering urban district councils to relinquish any functions of maintenance and repair retained by them in pursuance of a claim made under Subsection (2) of Section 11 of the Local Government Act, 1888, are roads as respects which the urban district council were not exercising the functions of maintenance and repair at the commencement of this Act. May I explain what the proposed new Sub-section (b) means. In the case of Middlesex—and I think there may be others—an Act was passed in 1898 to enable the urban district councils to renounce their right of claiming under the Act of 1888, and to hand over all their powers of maintaining and improving roads to the county council. Middlesex is a very thickly populated area, and, unless such an Amendment be made, practically the whole of the powers of the county council to maintain roads—and they have done it extremely well—might lapse. The result would be that the roads would go back to the several areas and the whole administration of Middlesex would come to an end. This Amendment would ensure that the status quo would be maintained.

Sir HERBERT NIELD

I should like to reinforce the observations of the Minister. The county of Middlesex is in a peculiar position. Hon. Members who are motorists will know how for the most part there are very good thoroughfares in the county. For many years past, since arterial roads have come into being, an enormous sum of money has been spent by Middlesex in constructing, not merely large arterial roads, but in making a north circular road intended to do what one might have mentioned yesterday in the discussion on the Corporation of London (Bridge) Bill, that is to say, to take the traffic away from the great centres, and to enable it to pass outside and to get down to the docks and elsewhere where the heavy industries are carried on. The Act of 1898 enabled Middlesex to deal with the special conditions of a rapidly developing district outside London. Once district councils under the Act of 1888 had claimed to maintain their own roads, they could not withdraw, and the Act of 1898 gave the district councils the power to reconsider the matter in the light of their experience. The greater number—some 30 in all—agreed to come under that Act. They offered no opposition to it passing through the House, and the result has been that amicable arrangements have been made with them where the county has taken over the roads, with great advantage to the district and to the uniformity of the surface of the roads.

If the original Clause were retained in this Bill, the Great West Road would be divided among 13 different authorities, all probably with different methods of constructing roads. In cases where district councils still maintain their own roads, they have been willing to make agreements with the county council that they should act as the agents of the county council in the care of the roads. We have therefore established over a long period complete uniformity, agreement, and concord between these various authorities, and it would be lamentable if one result of this Bill were to create disaster and consternation in Middlesex. I hope that in view of the large expenditure that has already been made by the county council on these big roads, the House will accept the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made:

In page 29, line 29, leave out the second word "as," and insert instead thereof the words "which—(a)." —[Colonel Ashley.]

Colonel ASHLEY

I beg to move, in page 29, to leave out from the word "construction," in line 31, to the word "under," in line 32, and to insert instead thereof the words: or improvement of which by the county council advances have been made. The necessity of this Amendment is to show that the roads to which the Clause applies are those constructed or improved by the county council.

Mr. SOMERVILLE

I should like to mention that the Amendments which stand in my name on this page of the Order Paper are in the fortunate position of being covered by the Amendments moved by my right hon. Friend.

Mr. SPEAKER

If the Amendment which has just been moved by the Minister of Transport is carried in the form proposed, it will prevent the hon. Baronet the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Sir E. Turton) moving his Amendment—In page 29, line 32, to leave out the words "to the county council," and to insert instead thereof the words "or agreed to be made."—I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman can come to some understanding in order to simplify the matter.

Colonel ASHLEY

am not in a position to accept the hon. Baronet's Amendment.

Sir E.TRATON

Perhaps I may be allowed to move my Amendment.

Mr. SPEAKER

If the Amendment of the Minister were carried, the Amendment of the hon. Baronet would fall.

Sir E. TURTON

I am in your hands, Sir, but I think that I have very good reasons for placing before the Minister of Transport why my Amendment ought to be accepted.

Mr. SPEAKER

I am anxious to do my best for the hon. Baronet, but I cannot do any more for him than I have done.

Amendment agreed to.

Colonel ASHLEY

I beg to move, in page 29, line 33, after the word "council," to insert the words: or (b) being situate in a county within which at the commencement of this Act there was in force a local Act empowering urban district councils to relinquish any functions of maintenance and repair retained by them in pursuance of a claim made under Sub-section (2) of Section 11 of the Local Government Act, 1888, are roads as respects which the urban district council were not exercising the functions of maintenance and repair at the commencement of this Act.

Mr. LOOKER

I have put down an Amendment to this Amendment, but I am not anxious to propose unnecessary alterations. As I understand my right hon. Friend's Amendment, the effect would be that an urban district which has not now a population of 20,000 or over, but may have a popultation of 20,000 or over in a few years' time will then be deprived of its right to claim to maintain the roads in its area, because the council of that district was not exercising those functions at the commencement of the Act. If my right hon. Friend is satisfied that that is not so, or will undertake to look into it with a view to remedying it if it should prove to be so, I shall be satisfied.

Colonel ASHLEY

As I read it, and as I am advised, the council of such an urban district would be able to claim that right, of course subject to the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Transport; but if it is said that these authorities are, under the Bill as we are putting it through, prevented from making such a claim, I will look into the matter again, and if I am satisfied that a case is made out, no doubt in another place it can be considered again. I hope my hon. Friend will be satisfied on that assurance to allow this Amendment, to be passed.

Amendment agreed to.

Sir H. NIELD

I beg to move, in page 29, line 41, to leave out the words "may determine," and to insert instead thereof the words: of Transport may by Order determine, and every such Order shall he laid before Parliament as soon as may be after it is made. The Minister has put his name down to this Amendment, which is an indication that he accepts it, but he has left me to move it. The object of this Amendment is to secure that any action which he may take under this particular Clause shall be the subject of an order, and that the order shall be laid upon the Table of the House. It bears on the point which we discussed last week regarding action which can be taken by a Department and it is in order to secure that Parliament shall have the control that I have put down this Amendment, in conjunction with my hon. Friend the Member for North Tottenham (Mr. R. Morrison). I am very glad to think the Minister has associated himself with it and accepts it.

Colonel ASHLEY

When my right hon. and learned Friend brought this matter to my notice, I at once accepted his suggestion that any order of the Minister should be laid before Parliament, because the Ministry of Transport is most democratic in all its proceedings.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

In page 30, line 20, leave out the words "according to the census of nineteen hundred and twenty-one," and insert instead thereof the words "at the appointed day."

In page 30, line 32, at the end, insert the words: and (b) the population of an urban district shall, subject as hereinafter provided, be deemed to be the population thereof according to the last census for the time being: Provided that the population of any urban district at the appointed day shall be taken to be the estimated population of that district for the year nineteen hundred and twenty-eight."—[Colonel Ashley.]