§ Mr. WESTWOODI beg to move, In page 10, to leave out from the word "and," in line 24, to the end of the Subsection, and to insert instead thereof the words:
thirty, upon which date one-third of the members so elected shall retire, and subsequent electrons shall take place on the said first Tuesday of December in every year 1860 thereafter at which one-third of the elected members shall retire.The purpose of this Amendment is to place the elections for the county councils in line with the elections for the town councils. So far as the county councils are concerned, under the proposals in the Bill, they will be elected every three years. The Amendment is to bring the county council elections into line with the burgh elections so that one-third of the county councillors shall retire each 1861 year, thus providing for new elections so far as one-third of the county councillors are concerned, and giving the electors the same opportunity of expressing their opinions as the electors have in the burghs. I am not anxious to take up much time of the Committee now, because Amendments that have to be moved on this particular Clause later on are of more vital importance so far as democratic representation and the rights of those who are called upon to pay, particularly in connection with education, the money that has to be raised by the rates, are concerned. I am moving this Amendment so that one-third of the elected members of the county council shall retire every year; then you will have annual elections as in the case of the burghs at present.
§ Mr. STEPHENI am rather hopeful that the Secretary of State will accept this Amendment, after having listened to the previous discussion. Two systems have been in operation, the system that has allowed an election to take place once every three years, and that which is applied more generally in the municipal areas and has resulted in one-third of the council retiring every year. It has been pointed out, in connection with this Measure, that one of the things which we are anxious to do is to have a real interest taken by the electorate in the elections. To achieve that, it is necessary to have annual elections of a part of the council That will mean that each year the various issues which have arisen will gather themselves together at election time, and the electorate will be able to keep in touch with the council in matters of administration. An Amendment was not accepted with regard to direct election in the various areas in the burghs, but I hope that the Committee generally will recognise that it is only reasonable that a certain proportion of the county councils should retire each year. There is no great principle involved in this matter, and nothing that will alter the scope of the Bill. There are no algebraical calculations or formulae which specially involve any working out, and I hope this concession will be made, so that the people of the districts may be able to keep in close touch with their councils and that the administration may be more efficient.
§ Sir J. GILMOURI am sorry to disappoint the hon. Gentleman, but I fear I cannot accept the Amendment. Let us consider this problem for a moment. It is suggested that the long-established custom that has been followed in regard to county councils shall be departed from. It is suggested that the period of three years, for which members are elected to the county council, is an unduly long time, and that the practice which is pursued in the burghs ought to be adopted in the counties. In the first place, it is clear that it has been a long-established custom in county council work, ever since the county councils have been established, that members should be returned for three years.
§ Mr. STEPHENWe do not propose that a member should not be returned for three years. Members returned to the county council will be elected for three years, but one-third of them will retire each year.
§ Sir J. GILMOURIt is suggested that a certain number should retire each year. That would entail an annual election for a portion of the county council I do not think there is any justification for placing that burden on the community. Of course, there are arguments that could be used, as they have been used, in favour of this proposal, but I would point out that in the case of a county it is unnecessary to interfere with long-established practice and that, in fact, this method of working has proved itself to be satisfactory. What is the desire at the back of the minds of hon. Members? Is it to obtain a continuity of service and knowledge? I look at this from the point of view that this central body is going to be concerned with the major health services. Clearly, in regard to people elected for the counties in the landward areas, the custom has been to elect them for three years. There would be no justification, certainly in the landward areas, for imposing upon those districts annual elections even for a proportion of the number of representatives. The expense would be quite unnecessary and no advantage would be likely to result from the change. We in Parliament, in our wisdom, decided, in order to deal with the very much larger problems here, first of all to have a seven years' term of 1863 election; then we had a five years' term of election. We depend, of coarse, for fresh entrants upon those Members who come to the House from what are known as by-elections. That system will also apply in regard to the county councils when vacancies arise. The services which are being dealt with are the larger health services, and there are great advantages in the people elected remaining members for a period during which they can become really conversant with the duties which they have to carry out. You will be subjecting individuals to quite unnecessary disturbance and you will place a useless cog in the machine of proper and efficient administration if you make a change in this long-established practice.
§ Mr. HARDIEAt the end of his remarks the Secretary of State for Scotland backed up our case when he spoke of efficiency and the need of it. He gave as an instance the case of Members of Parliament who were elected for seven years, and added that the period had now been reduced to five years. The right hon. Gentleman, however, from his personal experience, knows the tremendous difference between an election for a legislative chamber and an administrative chamber. Like the right hon. Gentleman, those of us who have been through administrative work know how difficult it would have proved if there had been a complete reelection of any public authority, and if the balance of efficiency, in the case of those members who have had two or three years' experience, had been disturbed. What we seek to do is to preserve that balance of efficiency. If you have a body coming out en masse, and if there is a complete change over, the whole of the administrative machinery becomes dislocated. Under the form of election which we seek, it will mean that one-third of the gentlemen acting as county councils will come up for re-election, and that two-thirds will remain, some for one year and others for two years, before they come out. They will all get a three years' term, and in that way we shall obtain what the right hon. Gentleman referred to in his ultimate remarks, efficient administration.
Our experience in Scotland with regard to the system under which one-third of a public body retired every year was that 1864 we never broke the continuity, and that two-thirds of that body had a grip on what was taking place on the public body owing to their personal experience. I remember, when a change took place as a result of legislation passed through this House, a certain body was wiped out and a new body put in its place. The result was that 75 per cent. of the members returned to the new body had no acquaintance with the subjects to be dealt with, and it took three of the gentleman who had been returned 15 months before they knew exactly how to vote. There will be cases under this Bill where people will be in the same position, because on being elected they will have no time to apply themselves to the details, and they will be bound to be fogged when a question comes up on which they have the vote. As is always the case, the Labour party desire a maximum of efficiency. The efficient man, no matter where he is applying himself, is the man who has been taught by real experience. You cannot get an efficient man by placing someone who has never been on an administrative body before on such a body, and then expecting him to act efficiently before he understands the questions at issue and the working of the machinery of administration.
This claim of ours, apart from anything in the Bill and apart from de-rating, is a claim for real working efficiency, and we say that by this Amendment you can make an improvement. Some people may say: "What about the expense of an election recurring, as it will do here?" Yes, but you are going to lose less by that than you will by having continuous inefficiency for 18 months after an election. The administrative machine cannot retain its efficiency unless you have this continuity which is provided for by our Amendment. I hope the Secretary of State will see the great necessity for the Amendment and will agree to it, in order that something may be done to retain the efficiency so essential in an administrative body. Under our proposal, new members would be able to learn from those other members who had experience of administrative details. In that way you would secure continuous efficiency, and you would also secure more interest in these matters. Administrative affairs differ from legislative affairs, and the greater the lapse of time between elections in 1865 the case of administrative bodies, the less interest there is in those bodies. When you kill public interest in it, the administration does not reflect the community, but is rather a reflection of "red tapeism."
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 161; Noes, 103.
1867| Division No. 174.] | AYES. | [8.17 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Grant, Sir J. A. | Penny, Frederick George |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Hacking, Douglas H. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Apsley, Lord | Hall, Capt. W. D A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) |
| Atkinson, C. | Hamilton, Sir George | Pilcher, G. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Hanbury, C. | Preston, Sir Walter (Cheltenham) |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell | Harland, A. | Radford, E. A. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Harrison, G. J. C. | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Raid, Capt. Cinningham (Warrington) |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Rhvs, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Berry, Sir George | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Birchall, Major J, Dearman | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford) |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Hills, Major John Waller | Sandeman, M. Stewart |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Hilton, Cecil | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Sandon, Lord |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Savery, S. S. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.) |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Home, St. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Skelton, A. N. |
| Buchan, John | Hudson, Capt A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) |
| Burman, J. B. | Hume, Sir G. H. | Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.) |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Hurst, Gerald B. | Smithers, Waldron |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Iveagh, Countess of | Somerville, A A. (Windsor) |
| Clayton, G. C. | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G.F. |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Lamb, J. Q. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Couper, J. B. | Loder, J. de V. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Looker, Herbert William | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Strcatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Crookshank. Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Maclntyre, Ian | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Macmillan, Captain H. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Ward, Lt.-Col A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Morvyn | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Margesson, Captain D. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Wells, S. R. |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple- |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Meyer, Sir Frank | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| Ford, Sir P. J. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Forestler-Walker, Sir L. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Withers, John James |
| Forrest, W. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Wragg, Herbert |
| Frece, Sir Walter de | Moreing, Captain A. H. | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Gauit, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Nuttall, Elite | Mr. F. C. Thomson and Sir Victor |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Oakley, T. | Warrender. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bllston) | Compton, Joseph | Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Connolly, M. | Greenall, T. |
| Barnes, A. | Cove, W. G. | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) |
| Barr, J. | Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Crawfurd. H. E. | Grundy, T. W. |
| Broad, F. A. | Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Hall, F. (Yortt, W. R, Normanton) |
| Bromfield, William | Duncan, C. | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) |
| Bromley, J. | Dunnico, H. | Hamfton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Edge, Sir William | Hardle, George D. |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Harris, Percy A. |
| Buchanan, G. | Fenby, T. D. | Hayday, Arthur |
| Cape, Thomas | Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) |
| Clark, A. B. | Glbbins, Joseph | Hirst, G. H |
| Cluse, W. S. | Gillett, George M. | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) |
| Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Sullivan, Joseph |
| John, William (Rhondda, West) | Mosley, Sir Oswald | Sutton, J. E. |
| Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Murnin, H. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Pralstow) |
| Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Oliver, George Harold | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Palin, John Henry | Tomilnson, R. P. |
| Kennedy, T. | Paling, W. | Townend, A. E. |
| Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Viaot, S. P. |
| Kirkwood, D. | Ponsonby, Arthur | Watson, W M. (Dunfermline) |
| Lansbury, George | Potts, John S. | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Lindley, F. W. | Ritson, J. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Longbottom, A. W | Sakiatvala, shapurji | Welsh, J. C. |
| Lowth, T. | Scrymgeour, E. | Westwood, J. |
| Lunn, William | Scurr, John | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Mackinder, W. | Shiels, Dr. Drummond | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercilffe) |
| Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Shinwell, E. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| MacNeill-Weir, L | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) | Windsor, Walter |
| Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'tbampton) | Smillie, Robert | Wright, W. |
| Maxton, James | Stamford, T. W. | |
| Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) | Stephen, Campbell | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Hayes. |
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND (Mr. MacRobert)I beg to move, in page 10, line 27, at the end, to insert the words:
(2) Section seven of the Act of 1889 (which relates to the qualification of county councillors), so far as unrepealed, and Section one of the County, Town, and Parish Councils (Qualification) (Scotland) Act, 1914, so far as relating to county councils, shall cease to have effect, and no person shall be qualified to be elected or to be a county councillor for an electoral division of a county unless—The purpose of the Amendment is to make quite specific those who are to be qualified by election as members of the newly constituted county authority, and, instead of having reference to Sections of previous Acts, we have stated specifically who are to be so qualified. I do not think anyone can have any objection to this Amendment so far, though there may be objection on some point of detail. Secondly, the purport of the Amendment is to make provision to allow those who are electors in small burghs to stand for election to the reconstituted county council. I think that is a proper and wise provision in respect that so many of the functions of the county council, particularly with regard to the major health services, are being exercised inside of the small burghs. I think there is 1868 no one who can take any exception to this Amendment so far as it goes.
- (a) he is at the time of the election registered as an elector entitled to vote at an election of a county councillor for an electoral division of the county or as an elector entitled to vote at an election of town councillors of any small burgh included within the county; or
- (b)is a person of full age and not subject to any legal incapacity and has, during the whole of the 12 months preceding the election, resided within the county, including any small burgh but excluding any large burgh."
§ Mr. WESTWOODThe objection that I have is that the Amendment does not go nearly far enough in the direction of enfranchising every individual who has to pay rates, for instance, in connection with education. It is undoubtedly making provision to enlarge the area from which you can get your county council representatives, because it enables the elector in a burgh to have the right of standing for election if he or she so desires in any part of the county. But the Amendment excludes a very large number of electors, ratepayers, and residents in the county from having any possibility of offering their services for county council work or directly for education work, unless the Government accept an Amendment to the proposed Amendment in my name on the Paper—in line 8, after the word "small," to insert the words "or large."
It is worth while knowing that at one time it was necessary for an individual offering his services to be on two registers, namely, the register to which he was nominated and the register on which he was to be elected. As a result of the War, the elections were indefinitely postponed until after the War, but there were by-elections in connection with various town councils, and as the law then operated an individual had to be on these two registers. But as no register had been prepared during the War, I think in the case of Edinburgh it was found that the Lord Provost, or someone of that kind, was not eligible for re-election in some particular election that took place at that time, with the result that we 1869 had to get a new qualification in connection with the right to be elected to one or other of these administrative bodies. I now find that, although you are seeking further to amend the law because of the changes in connection with administration, you are going to do a very great disservice and injustice so far as the inhabitants in the large burghs are concerned.
The inhabitants of the small burghs will have two ways whereby they can get into the county council to deal with education administration. One way will be by standing for the town council, and having the possibility of being selected by the town council of any small burgh as its representative on the county council, and the other way will be by offering their services in one or other of the landward areas that have the right to elect directly a representative to the county council. But so far as the large burghs are concerned, you are going to make it impossible for anyone to offer their services directly to the electors for election to the county council, and consequently, if you would accept my Amendment, so as to enable the electors who are registered in the large burghs to have the same rights of election as are provided for those in the small burghs under your proposal, then there need be no further talk on this Amendment. All the arguments that have been used by the Solicitor-General for Scotland in favour of this change in the law of qualification so far as they refer to the small burghs ought equally to apply so far as the residents and electors in the large burghs are concerned; and I trust that the Government will be able to meet us in connection with this rather modest request for equality of opportunity for the electors in the large burghs.
§ Mr. STEPHENI would like to support the request that has been made to the Solicitor-General for Scotland by my colleague, and to point out that by making this additional extension there is not going to be anything taken away from the power of the people in the small burghs and the landward areas as compared with the large burghs. It is not as though you were giving voting rights to the people in the large burghs as against those in the small burghs and the landward areas, but all that is involved here is to let individuals who have got a 1870 certain interest in the county through their connection with the large burghs to appeal to the electorate in the small burghs or landward areas in order to secure election. It is obvious that there can be no very strong objection to this proposal. One might say that individuals in large burghs might tend to dominate the county council and become the people with most control on the county council. That would be true if you were extending the electorate so that their position in the big burgh allowed them to come into the county council because: of the votes that they were securing in the large burghs; but you are giving nothing to them in the way of votes from the large burghs in this connection. You are simply giving them the right to become candidates at the elections and to secure the support of the electorate.
In this matter the Government are going too much by use and wont with regard to the qualifications that the individuals may have. We have very wide power with regard to coming into this House, for example. You do not require to have this or that franchise, to be on this or that roll, in order to come into the most important body in the Kingdom, namely, the House of Commons itself; but whenever it comes to local government, there is all this sort of idea that people must be on a local government roll and so on, and all these qualifications are required. The individual ought to be as free to stand for election to a county council or a town council as he is to stand for election to Parliament.
I know that in the past there was the idea that if people did not make this rule debarring individual:) there would be too many people coming in from the outside, as if the electorate themselves could not be trusted to deal with them. I do not think there is anybody in the small burghs or in the landward areas with a real chance of being elected who would be afraid to face the competition of somebody from a larger burgh; and there being those educational interests, and this being a time of transition in this matter, I think the Government ought to be able to meet us on this point. I hope that the Solicitor-General for Scotland will take the opportunity of signalising his intervention in the Debate by agreeing to this change. So far we have waited even for crumbs to fall from the 1871 table of the Government but not a crumb has come to the Opposition. Seeing that so little is being asked I hope that the Government will see their way to grant this modest request to make it possible for people with education interest to come in as elected persons rather than have to go on to the education committee as co-opted members. We ask that the Government should at least give to members of the present education authorities as wide a possibility of continuing their work as elected representatives since so small a matter is entailed in the change.
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLANDThe argument put forward by the hon. Member opposite has considerable force in it. We quite appreciate the difference between a person entitled to vote and a person entitled to stand for election. Without committing the Government, we are prepared to consider this question but also in the light of the county position. That is to say, that a person who resides in the county can likewise be elected in the burghs. We are quite prepared to consider the whole question between now and the Report stage without making any actual promise in the matter. That is as far as we can go. I think that we have gone a considerable way. After all, in a question like this, which is not a political question, but a question of local government, we want to do our best to have the most efficient local Government, and we will favourably consider the proposition that has been made by the other side.
§ Mr. SHINWELLI am quite prepared to accept that suggestion, but I am anxious to understand the reason for this proposal. What is the purpose of it? Why do the Government desire to exclude the residents in large burghs and
§ give them preference over those residing in the small burghs? Why is the resident in a small burgh to have a qualification that is denied to someone residing in a large burgh? I am quite prepared to let the matter stand over, but surely the Solicitor-General might advance some reason why this Amendment was put down.
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLANDThe point was that under the existing law those who were resident in police burghs were qualified for the county council, while those in royal and parliamentary burghs were not. Some of the small burghs are police burghs and some are royal or parliamentary burghs, and we had to decide whether to exclude those residing in a small burgh or bring the small burgh in in the same way as the police burghs, and we came to the view that we should take in the small burghs.
§ Mr. T. HENDERSONWe ought to accept the shadow of the crumb that has been offered, with the hope that something more substantial will fall from the table of the Government.
§ Mr. WESTWOODAfter having received the definite statement that the Government will consider this matter, I suggest, from the electoral point of view, that, if the Government do something on the line suggested, they will do justice to a large number of residents as was not done to them under the original proposal. and I am prepared to accept the undertaking without pressing my Amendments.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 162; Noes, 103.
1873| Division No. 175.] | AYES. | [8.43 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Blundell, F. N. | Clayton, G. C. |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Brittain, Sir Harry | Couper, J. B. |
| Apsley, Lord | Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Courtauld, Major J. S. |
| Atkinson, C. | Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) |
| Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell | Buchan, John | Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Burman, J. B. | Dalkeith, Earl of |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Chapman, Sir S. | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) |
| Berry, Sir George | Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Davies, Dr. Vernon |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Clarry, Reginald George | Dixey, A. C. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Kennedy, A, R. (Preston). | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stratford) |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Lamb, J. Q. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Loder, J. de V. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Looker, Herbert William | Savery, S. S |
| Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Herman | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A.D. Mcl (Renfrew, W.) |
| Fielden, E. B. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Skelton, A. N. |
| Ford, Sir P. J. | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Smith, Louls W. (Sheffield, Hallam) |
| Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Forrest, W. | Macintyre, I. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Macmillan, Captain H. | Smithers, Waldron |
| Frece, Sir Walter de | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Fremantie, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Margesson, Captain D. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Grant, Sir J. A. | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Hacking, Douglas H. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Hamilton, Sir George | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Hanbury, C. | Monsell, Eyres, Corn. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Harnnon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborougn |
| Harland, A. | Moroing, Captain A. H. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Harrison, G. J. C. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Ward, Lt.-Cot. A.L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Nuttall, Ellis | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxt'd, Henley) | Oakley, T. | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Penny, Frederick George | Wells, S. R. |
| Hilton, Cecil | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple- |
| Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| Hopkins, J. W. W. | Pilcher, G. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Preston, Sir Walter (Cheltenham) | Withers, John James |
| Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Price, Major C. W. M. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hockney, N.) | Radford, E. A. | Wragg, Herbert |
| Hume, Sir G. H. | Ralne, Sir Walter | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | |
| Hurst, Gerald B. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Iveagh, Countess of | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) | Major Sir George Hennessy and |
| Captain Bowyer. | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Paling, W. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff, Cannock) | Grundy, T. W. | Ponsonby, Arthur |
| Baker, J (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Hall, F. (York., W.R., Normanton) | Potts, John S. |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertlliery) | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Ritson, J. |
| Barnes, A. | Hamlton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Saklatvala, Shupurji |
| Barr, J. | Hardie, George D. | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Hayday, Arthur | Scurr, John |
| Broad, F. A. | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Bromfield, William | Hirst, G. H. | Shtels, Dr. Drummond |
| Bromley, J. | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Shinwell, E. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Smillie, Robert |
| Buchanan, G. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Stanford, T. W. |
| Cape, Thomas | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Clark, A. B. | Kennedy, T. | Strauss, E. A. |
| Cluse, W. S | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Sullivan, J. |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Kirkwood, D. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Compton, Joseph | Lansbury, George | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plalstow) |
| Connolly, M. | Lindley, F. W. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Cove, W. G. | Livingstone, A. M. | Tomilnson, R. P. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Longbottom, A. W. | Townend, A. E. |
| Crawturd, H. E. | Lowth, T. | Viant, S. P. |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Lunn, William | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Dennison, R. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Duncan, C. | Mackinder, W. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Dunnico, H. | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Welsh, J. C. |
| Edge, Sir William | MacNeill-Weir. L. | Westwood, J. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellly) | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Garro-Jones. Captain G. M. | Maxton, James | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Gillett, George M. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Mosley, Sir Oswald | Windsor, Walter |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin, Cent.) | Murnin, H. | Wright, W. |
| Greenall, T. | Oliver, George Harold | |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Palin, John Henry | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Hayes. |