HC Deb 05 February 1929 vol 224 cc1577-83
36. Mr. MALONE

asked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware that in the last week many ships were seriously delayed for lack of coal, and that many steamers have been waiting their turns for coal in the Tyne and elsewhere; and whether, in view of the cost involved in keeping these vessels idle and in view of the unemployment in the mining industry, he can explain this state of affairs?

38. Brigadier-General BROOKE

asked the Secretary for Mines the number of steamers at present held up at British ports owing to a scarcity of bunker coal and the names of the ports affected?

Commodore KING

I will answer these two questions together.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY

On a point of Order. May I ask whether these questions do not refer to different matters?

Mr. SPEAKER

That is for the Minister to decide.

Commodore KING

Though there were some delays last week for bunker coal, the position in this respect is now easier and I am unable to find any serious cases of delay at the present time. There is, however, a shortage of coal for export which is causing delays to ships mainly on the North-East Coast and in South Wales due to the considerable increase in demand. If this increased demand continues I have no doubt that by the opening up of pits now closed and additional districts in collieries already working, the demand will be met. The weekly output is already about half a million tons above the weekly output in October.

Mr. LAWSON

Is the Secretary for Mines taking any steps in the direction of getting pits opened for the purpose of supplying the demand?

Commodore KING

No, it is perfectly-obvious that if this demand continues, the owners will need no pressure to open pits.

Mr. LAWSON

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that there is a definite statement in the northern Press that they are not going to open the pits, and is he quite sure that the real trouble is there?

Mr. AUSTIN H0PKINS0N

Is it not the case that the shortage of bunkers is almost entirely on the Humber, and is the direct result of the artificial restriction of production known as rationalisation, which was recommended by the Samuel Commission?

Mr. SHINWELL

Is the increase of 500,000 tons output since October due to export or to ordinary seas anal demand?

Commodore KING

It is clearly impossible for me to dissect, all the movements of the market. It is very encouraging to know that there is. this great increase. With regard to the question put by my hon. Friend, the shortage of bunkers is not marked anywhere, and the shortage of cargoes is more to be noted on the North-East Coast and in South Wales than on the Humber.

Colonel HOWARD-BURY

Is it the case that in South Wales several mines which are trying to open need 2,000 colliers and cannot get them?

Mr. MARDY JONES

Is it in order for an hon. Member to make insinuations with regard to the miners of South Wales in that way? It is absolutely untrue.

Mr. HARDIE

I desire to put a question.

HON. MEMBERS

Sit down!

Mr. JONES

Do not tell a lot of fibs! [Interruption.]

Mr. SPEAKER

A point of Order was raised, to which I will give a reply. It is certainly not in order for any insinuation to be made, either now or at any time, and I hope that hon. Members will not do so.

HON. MEMBERS

Withdraw!

Mr. KIRKWOOD

He has got to withdraw.

Several HON. MEMBERS

rose

Mr. KIRKW00D

If you are going to deliver a lecture, Mr. Speaker, deliver it to the other side, and not to this side.

Mr. SPEAKER

Order, order!

Mr. WESTW00D

Does the hon. and gallant Member know that he has not only insulted the miners, but insulted the Heir to the Throne by his insinuations?

HON. MEMBERS

Withdraw!

Mr. KIRKW00D

We are going to have a withdrawal. Is he going to withdraw?

Colonel HOWARD-BURY

Might I say that it was in all yesterday's newspapers.

Mr. KIRKW00D

Tell us the paper it was in. You are making bad worse. Withdraw! [Interruption.] The House is not going to allow it, and we are not going to allow our people—

HON. MEMBERS

Name!

Mr. SPEAKER

The hon. Member knows quite well that that is not the way to behave in this House. He only makes matters worse, and more difficult for me. I hope that he will understand that, and not continue these interruptions.

Mr. SHINWELL

May I put a question?

Mr. MACLEAN

On a point of Order. The hon. and gallant Gentleman made a statement, and, in endeavouring to verify it, stated that it had been in all the newspapers yesterday. I should like to put it to you, Mr. Speaker, that, when a statement has been made conveying not merely an insinuation, but an accusation, and an attempt is made to verify it by referring hon. Members to newspapers, it is not the proper manner of putting facts before us. I would like to ask whether it is not the case that, where a statement cannot be verified, the hon. Member who has made it has usually shown his gentlemanliness by withdrawing the statement, or promising to bring proof later before the House?

Mr. SPEAKER

I have often warned hon. Members against placing too much reliance upon statements in newspapers.

HON. MEMBERS

Withdraw!

Mr. SPEAKER

The hon. and gallant Gentleman who made that remark did not mean an insult to anybody.

Mr. SHINWELL

May I put a question?

Mr. LAWSON

rose

Colonel HOWARD-BURY

I was simply quoting yesterday's papers.

Mr. G. HALL

It was an aspersion on the miners.

Mr. CHARLES EDWARDS

May I put a point? I know the position very well, and I was there on Sunday morning, and that statement is untrue.

HON. MEMBERS

Is that a point of order?

Mr. SHINWELL

I want to put a question to you, Sir.

HON. MEMBERS

Sit down!

Mr. KIRKW00D

Your dignity is at stake, Mr. Speaker. If you do not make the hon. and gallant Member withdraw, you will not make me withdraw.

HON. MEMBERS

Name!

Mr. KIRKWOOD

We will defy you! You have insulted the Heir to the Throne.

Mr. WESTWOOD

A man who has never worked down a mine in his life to insult thousands of men!

Mr. SPEAKER

I have already said that I am sure that the hon. and gallant Member did not mean to insult anybody.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

We are far too generous with him.

Colonel HOWARD-BURY

I might tell hon. Members opposite that I had no intention whatever of insulting anyone. I simply quoted a statement which I read in the papers yesterday.

Mr. CLYNES

May I submit to you, Sir, that, apart from the intention of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, he used words, relying solely upon certain things that appeared in the newspapers, implying an intention on the part of the miners deliberately to refrain—[Interruption]—from accepting work when work is offered to them. May I suggest to the hon. and gallant Gentleman that this is an offensive and wholly undeserved observation, and, in view of the feeling which he has provoked by it, I think he might very well withdraw.

Mr. SPEAKER

I understood the hon. and gallant Gentleman to have said that he had no intention of saying anything that might give offence.

HON. MEMBERS

No, he has not.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Churchill)

On a point of Order. Is it not quite a usual practice for hon. Members to make statements in this House, relying on such evidence as has been brought before them, which statements are corrected from time to time by the feeling of the House and by the general information which is afterwards provided? Since when has it become a matter of making it a grievance between parties that a statement about which two opinions exist may not be made. [Interruption.]

Mr. KIRKWOOD

Mussolini!

Mr. LAWSON

The hon. and gallant Member gave expression to statements which have been quietly propagated in certain circles, and the right hon. Gentleman, from the Front Bench, has justified the hon. and gallant Member behind him. Can the right hon. Gentleman wonder at the feeling prevailing on this side of the House in view of the disgraceful state of things which is prevailing among the miners throughout the country? [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech I"] May I not ask you, Sir, if, in view of the suffering prevailing among the miners, it is not decent to ask the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. and gallant Gentleman to withdraw the statements that they have made?

Mr. SPEAKER

The hon. and gallant Member has already said that he had no intention of insulting anybody.

Colonel HOWARD-BURY

Am I not entitled to ask a question, which is all I did, on a statement which I read in the "Times" yesterday?

Mr. SHINWELL

May I put my point of Order?

Mr. SPEAKER

I think an hon. Member is entitled to ask a question of that kind. The hon. and gallant Member said that he had no intention of insulting anybody.

HON. MEMBERS

But he did.

Mr. SHINWELL

I have been on my feet a dozen times to put a point of Order. The point of Order I have been trying to put is this: Is it not possible for the hon. and gallant Member who represents the Mines Department to say, from the facts at his disposal, that there is no truth whatever in the statement made by the hon. and gallant Member?

Mr. CHURCHILL

On that point of Order—

Mr. SHINWELL

Allow the Speaker to reply! You sit down!

Mr. KIRKWOOD

Control the Chancellor of the Exchequer at once, Mr. Speaker. You cannot dictate to us now.

Mr. SPEAKER

The right hon. Gentleman is within his rights in asking a further question on that point of Order. The Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Mr. CHURCHILL

Further to that point of Order! Would not the best solution of this difficulty be for a question to be put on the Paper and for an answer to be given—

HON. MEMBERS

Settle it at once.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

Now's the day and now's the hour."

Mr. SHINWELL

Cannot you trust the Secretary for Mines? Must he consult you about it?

Mr. KIRKWOOD

You are not going to dictate to us.

Mr. CHURCHILL

Would it not be very much better for the question to be placed on the Paper and for the Secretary for Mines, or the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour, to give a considered answer at the end of Question Time to-morrow?

Mr. CLYNES

In the event of such a question being put on the Paper, may we have some assurance that the Secretary for Mines will approach every side of this question before supplying the answer?

Mr. CHURCHILL

On behalf of the Government, I gladly give the assurance that a most careful and sincere answer shall be given upon this important issue to-morrow afternoon, if Mr. Speaker can permit it in accordance with the Rules of the House.

Mr. SHINWELL

May I put a further question? May I ask whether it is not possible for the Secretary for Mines to say from the facts presently at his disposal whether there is any truth in the contention of the hon. and gallant Member? He knows the position.

Mr. SPEAKER

Mr. Hall.