CLAUSE 1.—(Transfer of functions of parish councils and district boards of control to county councils and town councils of large burghs.)

HC Deb 04 February 1929 vol 224 cc1433-535

The CHAIRMAN

The first Amendment on the Paper standing in the name of the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. W. Adamson)— In page 1, line 9, at the beginning, insert the words: On the appointed day, which shall be fixed by His Majesty by Order in Council after a Royal Commission has made inquiry into and issued a Report upon a delimitation of the areas of local government, and"— is not in order, because it purports in terms to give an imperative to His Majesty to appoint a Commission, and that would not be in order.

Mr. HARDIE

If the Scottish Bill had been the same as the English Bill, I could understand your Ruling, Mr. Chairman, but since the Scottish Measure goes far beyond de-rating it is quite another matter. The proposals in this Bill destroy the democratic right in education as well as in the Poor Law without any change in the law. This Measure does these two things which differ from the question of de-rating, and surely that is a sufficient reason why the Amendment of my right hon. Friend ought to be permitted.

The CHAIRMAN

There is no question of the merits of the Amendment. It is not in order.

Major Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR

Do I understand that we are now taking a Debate on the whole Clause? I do not wish to travel beyond the terms of a proposal to leave out parish councils; on the contrary, I want to restrict myself to the position of rural parish councils, but I wish to know whether we are now taking a Debate on the whole Clause.

The CHAIRMAN

The Clause deals with various things in paragraphs (a) and (b) and each question is a subject for a separate Debate.

Sir A. SINCLAIR

I beg to move, in page 1, line 10, to leave out the words "of each parish council and."

4.0 p.m.

I am dealing only with rural councils because some of my colleagues wish to move important Amendments. This Bill contains monstrous proposals for doing away with existing democratic organs of Scottish local government, county councils, parish councils and small burgh councils, and it allows their powers and responsibilities to be absorbed by these new-fangled councils of superior persons in each county who constitute a sort of Hindenburg line of Tory entrenchments with which the Government propose to scar the face of Scottish local government. There is no part of this Bill which has been more completely shattered by arguments than the proposals to deprive us of our parish councils. The Government have now retreated to a line, which I think they will find is little easier to hold than the line we have already destroyed. The real truth of the matter is that the Government should have left the councils alone unless they were prepared to take into consultation the men and women who, for a long period of years, have been engaged upon the work of local government in Scotland. When the Secretary of State for Scotland was framing his Measure, he consulted the Minister of Health in the first place, and, after that, he consulted the local authorities. Finally, he came back to Whitehall to decide what Amendments might be accepted. The right hon. Gentleman now claims the authority of certain Royal Commissions which have reported on this question. The remarkable fact is that the most authoritative bodies, those whose opinion he is most anxious on every possible occasion to invoke, have decided against him on the point to which my Amendment is directed. The Royal Commission on the Poor Law decided in favour of parish councils in rural areas in Scotland. It is quite true that they made three reservations. They said that there should be a combination of small parishes. That is a thing which does not apply in the Highlands in Scotland.

That only applies to certain parishes in the Lowlands of Scotland, and to such combination, where the parishes are too small, no reasonable man would take any objection. But abolition is a very different matter. The other reservation was that parish councils should be reinforced by a proportion of members not directly elected; and, thirdly, that the necessary institutions should be provided by a body representative of the county. These are small points compared with the strong, practical reasons which the same Royal Commission gave for the continuation of parish councils in the rural areas of Scotland. Again, there was the Consultative Committee on the Highlands and Islands which reported to the Scottish Board of Health in 1923. It was a very representative Committee. It was an admirable Committee to advise the Secretary of State on these questions. No better Committee could be constituted. The chairman was no less a distinguished lady than the Noble Member for West Perth (Duchess of Atholl). Mr. William Durran, the Provost of Thurso, was also on this excellent Committee. They were unanimously in favour of keeping parish councils in Scotland.

The Noble Lady now attempts to get out of that position by saying that since then the problem of unemployment has got very much worse, but the problem of unemployment bears very little on any of the Highland and Island parish councils. The Noble Lady complains that there is some parish in Perthshire which is very seriously affected by unemployment, but, even if it is true that Perthshire is badly affected, it would only mean that this particular parish will benefit to some extent under the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman. The County of Perthshire will have to bear its unfair weight, and if you are to remove unfairness of that kind, the only way to do it is the way the party to which I belong proposes, namely, to take the burden of relieving the able-bodied unemployed off the rates altogether. But I thought the right hon. Gentleman had another method of dealing with it. I thought that the famous formula which loads the population in relation to the amount of unemployment in each area, was going to be relied upon to mitigate these hardships; but, apparently, it is not going to work particularly well in this instance, and I very much doubt if it will work in a great number of other instances.

After all, this question of unemployment is a very small matter compared with the very solid reasons which were given by the Noble Lady's Committee for the retention of parish councils in Scotland, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman, when he comes to reply, will reply to the reasons which were given by his noble colleague for the retention of parish councils in Scotland. Let me remind him of some of them. There was, for example, their representative character. That is very important, because where you have got these large, scattered areas, it is very difficult to get men who are really representatives of the people whom they are supposed to represent, to serve on a county council, which may be 40 or 50 miles away from those areas. There is efficiency based on local knowledge. Nobody can have the local knowledge of these scattered communities, separated as they are by bad communications and so forth from the centre of county work, except people who live amongst them. The fact that they have important duties to perform other than the administration of the Poor Law is, again, a vital reason for keeping parish councils.

Finally, there is the prevalence of a strong Scottish sentiment in favour of the administration of Poor Law relief by elected bodies in small contained communities. There is, especially in the Highlands, a very strong sentiment in favour of the administration of Poor Law by elected bodies. The right hon. Gentleman, however, proposes some newfangled bodies to take the place of these parish councils, who are not to be entrusted with the duties of Poor Law relief. We in the Highlands feel that those duties, affecting as they do the intimate concerns of families in their homes, can only be adequately carried out by people actually elected by, and closely in touch with the needs of, the people in each district. The Noble Lady's Committee gave two other reasons, which were also urged by the Royal Commission on the Poor Law: When it is remembered that within the last two years the only other publicly elected parish body, the school board, has ceased to exist, there is no other elected body except these parish councils, and when the geographical features of the Highlands and the large size of many Highland parishes are taken into account"— I have in Sutherland and Caithness parishes of from 15 to 20 miles long and from 10 to 15 miles wide. There are no railways in many of these parishes, the roads are rough and dangerous, and with such communication these parishes are already large enough, and in some cases almost too large, for effective administration. Townships are scattered among them, and I say that these are the maximum areas which can be effectively administered by local councils.

The Secretary of State proposes to set up new-fangled councils in place of the parish councils, which are not even to be entrusted with the Poor Law, which seems to us to be the most vital function of the parish council. The Secretary of State has complained that not enough interest is taken in parish council work, as shown by the fact that there are very few elections. That is not a, very sound argument. There is a kind of process of latent election going on the whole time. There is a grievance, say, in a particular parish, and so-and-so is in favour of settling this grievance in a particular way, and somebody else is in favour of doing it in another way. The thing is argued inside and out, and two men are very often put up for election, but before the nomination day comes along, the thing has been argued out in various assemblies, newspapers and so forth, and, to save the expense of an election, one or other side in the controversy gives way, and one man goes up to nomination and is declared elected. That process is constantly going on.

But as a matter of fact, there are a great many elections. It is untrue to Bay that elections are practically unheard of. Only the other day certain parish councils had elections both in Caithness and Sutherland, and great interest was taken in the local contests. In other cases, although there is no contest, there is keen interest, but it is not necessary to have an election, because people are pleased with what their councillors are doing on the whole. They would very greatly resent it, however, if they were deprived of the local councils, whose speeches, meetings and deliberations are closely watched, and the mere absence of election does not mean any lack of interest. Take the case of the school boards. When these were abolished, and larger authorities were instituted, did that cause any greater interest, or any larger number of elections, and so forth, in the county? The very reverse was the case in the Highlands of Scotland. The right hon. Gentleman says they are not even to have the right of looking after burial grounds. In Highland parishes the burial ground is the vary centre of sentiment. People may have left the parish, and their fathers and grandfathers may have left the parish before them, but when they die they are gathered to their fathers in the parish of their family origin, and there is a great deal of active interest and sentiment centred round these parish burial grounds. It is an absurd thing to deprive the local council of the right to look after these grounds.

Though the Secretary of State proposes to set up new-fangled councils, the fact remains that he is destroying the old parish councils. These old parishes have clinging to them great historic associations and traditions. There is a pride in them, a spirit of emulation, of parochial rivalry in efficiency and economy which has made in the past for the maximum of efficiency in local government. No right hon. Member or hon. Member opposite has brought any charge of lack of efficiency against these councils. Sentiment, too, as was said the other day by the right hon. Gentleman's colleague the Minister of Health, is a very powerful factor, and anyone who flouts it is taking a very rash course. These functions, of which the parish council are to be deprived, are to be vested, we are told, in these new bodies, but they will have no time to thrash out the details of every little scattered parish. They will leave this to the officials. The debates will be hurried. There will be no time for the consideration of these little local interest, and, broadly speaking, it will be left to the clerk of the council to arrange them with his officials.

We see along the lines of this Bill the march of bureaucracy strengthening its grip upon the local government of Scotland, and, therefore, I say that whereas small improvements are certainly possible, improvements which should be made in close and active consultation and cooperation with Scottish men and women with long experience of local government, whereas small adjustments of territory and boundaries might well be feasible and useful, the abolition of the parish councils of Scotland, at any rate in the rural districts, and particularly in the Highlands—I leave my colleagues to answer for the larger parish councils in the cities—would mean the sacrifice of a strong, healthy and useful limb of Scottish local government.

Mr. STEPHEN

I desire to support the Amendment which has been moved by my hon. Friend below the Gangway. Members on the Labour benches are opposed to the abolition of the parish councils, both in the rural districts and in the larger burghs, as is contemplated in the present Measure. It is quite true that the Labour party in days gone by regarded the abolition of the parish councils as something that should take place, but, when they contemplated the abolition of the parish councils, they also contemplated the abolition of the Poor Law, and, if the Poor Law were abolished, there would be no reason for the continuance of a body to administer the Poor Law. There is no provision for the abolition of the Poor Law in this Measure of the Government; they are not going to do any such thing. What they are going to do is to carry the Poor Law into the administration of the county council or the town council, and the probability is—and, indeed, there are already indications that this is going to be the case—that the Poor Law and the spirit of the Poor Law will come into the new administrative body, and will tend to give it the same characteristics which drew upon the parish councils a certain amount of odium in days gone by.

I have here a memorandum headed, "Notes on the Government proposals for Local Government Reform." I do not know who is responsible for its circulation, but it seems to have been carefully got up on behalf of the Government. I do not know whether it came to me with the Parliamentary papers, but I think it came by the same post which brought the Parliamentary papers, though what may be its connection with the Government I do not know. These notes are certainly a very strong plea for the measures that the Government are taking, and I notice that on page 16 there is this statement: Pressure has been brought to bear on successive Governments to assist the local authorities in meeting an expenditure on Poor relief which has swollen by the attempt made in some quarters to maintain an artificially high standard of living, among the unemployed. I quote that from this document because I believe that the abolition of the parish councils in the rural districts and in the other districts is really an attempt by the present Administration to make the conditions worse for the poor, and more especially for the able-bodied unemployed. There is the difficulty which the Government would require to face if they went back to the former powers of parish councils in connection with provision for the able-bodied unemployed, and I see in this Measure an attempt to get behind the Act which gave relief to the able-bodied unemployed.

As I have said, Members on these benches have stood for the abolition of the parish councils together with the abolition of the Poor Law. I do not believe that anyone on these benches goes back from that position, but, if the able-bodied unemployed were really provided for nationally, as ought to be the case, if the Ministry of Labour were doing its work as fully as it ought, there would only be left to the parish council the sick and the infirm and aged poor. If the development of pension schemes and National Health Insurance were brought to the position which they should logically occupy, very little indeed would be left that would call for another authority. As matters stand, however, nothing is being done by the Government in this Measure to deal with any of these matters; all that is going is the parish council.

I want to ask the Minister, with regard more especially to the parish councils in the rural districts, what exactly the Government have in their minds with regard to the administration of the Poor Law by the county council. In the case, for instance, of a county such as Argyll, with a wide area, scattered districts, and towns far apart from one another, is it the idea that relief is going to be administered in the main by an official, or is there going to be a committee that will carry out the work as it is being carried out at the present time by the local parish councils? If there is going to be a committee, if on that committee there is going to be a certain proportion of county councillors, and if others are to be secured by co-option, I fail to see how anyone can suggest that that is any improvement. The Poor Law is there; the Poor Law has to be administered; there is simply a change in the form of the committee, so that it consists of some county councillors and some co-opted persons; and, to crown all, we are told that those co-opted persons will in the main be persons who formerly served on the old parish councils. It seems to me that we are getting into a Gilbertian situation if this be regarded as a real reform. The Government seem to think that in getting rid of the parish councils they are doing something to meet the large volume of opinion which has protested against the inhumanity of the Poor Law in days gone by; they have confused the administrative body with the law which that body had to administer. If the committee becomes a committee of elected county councillors and co-opted former members of the parish council, I do not see how anything is really going to be changed.

In the administration of the Poor Law, which is in many respects a harsh law, there is all the greater necessity that the people who administer it should be people who have to face an electorate, who are put in office by an electorate, instead of there being all these co-opted persons. The thing is ridiculous. A great case can be made out for doing away with the Poor Law altogether, and, when it has been done away with, there will then be no protest against doing away with parish councils, either rural or urban. The thing to do is to get rid of the Poor Law, to make national provision for the national services, which at the present time are lying as a great burden upon the districts, in connection with provision for the unemployed, for whose unemployment the central Government itself in so many cases is responsible. When the Poor Law has gone, and there is a national service to provide fully for the unemployed in the local districts, the ordinary local authority will be able to come in and make adequate provision for the sick without any of the stigma of pauperism which has been the disgrace of bygone days. Instead of that, the stigma of pauperism is going to be brought in more and more under this Measure. Consequently, we on these benches support this Amendment for the retention of the parish councils until the Government deal with the real reform of the Poor Law, which means the abolition of the Poor Law.

Sir HARRY HOPE

The speech of the hon. and gallant Member who moved this Amendment is an illustration of the very partial view which he takes of the problem of local government in Scotland, but does not the hon. and gallant Member realise that there are parishes throughout Scotland which at the present time have a financial burden resting upon them in connection with Poor relief in these distressed areas which they are absolutely unable to boar? When we see that problem, and recognise that it is one which affects hundreds of thousands of people, we must consider what remedial steps can be taken to bring relief. The hon. and gallant Member referred to matters such as the burial grounds that are going to be taken away from what may be called the rural authority; but the Secretary of State has on the Paper an Amendment which provides for the setting up of district councils composed of direct representatives of the people, and, with the setting up of these district councils, we shall have a continuance of all that local connection with the local life of the district.

I served for 15 years on a parish council before I came to this House, and I have always recognised that the public service given by our people is of immense value and should not be in any way belittled; but I am perfectly sure that this Bill provides for the continuance of that good work by our public-spirited citizens, and it also enables the vast work of relieving necessitous areas to be carried out in accordance with the needs of the people in those districts. Then we have nowadays so much increased work done as regards what are called health services. Can we not recognise that by a unified procedure the people stand to gain? I think the money spent on health services will bring more relief to the homes and our people will get more done for them, whether it be in all the various institutional services or in other work in their homes. Therefore, I am sure that in setting up these district councils you will have nothing to fear.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

I understand the reason the Government are bringing forward this Bill at this time is because of the abnormal conditions that exist in our country. Poverty is worse in Scotland to-day than it is in England, and, generally speaking, it is worse than it was in Scotland when this Government took office. As the result of those abnormal conditions, you have young men, the finest asset that any country could possibly have, the young, vigorous, and the strong, unemployed for years. The "Glasgow Times," the Tory evening paper, states that in Lanarkshire the young men are running about like wild beasts, with nothing to do, and nowhere to get a living, and are denied the right to live in the country where many of their fathers died in order to keep the Germans out. Because labour has been organising its forces in a way it has not done before, the Government have been forced to pretend to do something to handle that abnormal situation. One of the things they do is to bring in this Bill, and, among other things, it is going to abolish parish councils. But, with the abolition of the parish councils, it is going to retain all the stigma of the Poor Law. In the part of the country where I live, I see men and women with whom I went to school becoming old before their time. I have seen this process at work with my own eyes and have seen men of my class forced by economic pressure—that is starvation—to go to the Employment Exchange.

The CHAIRMAN

I must remind the hon. Member that the only Question before the Committee is whether the functions of the Poor Law authorities shall or shall not be transferred to the county council or to the burgh council.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

I am trying to show what is the effect of this, how it works out, and how it is affecting my class. They are not in any way making any attempt to tackle the poverty problem. This is not going to abolish poverty or affect it in any way. I have seen men reduced to going to the Employment Exchange though they did not believe they ever would be reduced to going there. I have seen my race—and I have pride of race—reduced below going to the Employment Exchange, going to the authority which we are dealing with now, the parish council, and I can remember when it was considered a disgrace for one of my race to be reduced to going to the parish council. The Government have been responsible for reducing my race down to the level of taking relief from the parish council. They have not stopped there. I would have forgiven them if they had. They have reduced them further. There is no finer body of men than those of whom I am speaking. Now they are sending round the hat begging for them.

The CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member cannot, on this Amendment, raise the whole question of the Poor Law. This is not a Bill to amend the Poor Law itself. This Amendment transfers the Poor Law functions under the present law from one body to another. That is really the only question before the Committee.

Mr. SHINWELL

On a point of Order. Are we not entitled to discuss the magnitude of the problem in order to determine whether the parish councils should be retained or not or whether some greater measure of reform is required in this connection? I cannot see how it is possible to come to a decision on this head unless we discuss the magnitude of the problem and see whether there is a problem at all in relation to the Poor Law.

Mr. SCRYMGEOUR

Does not this Amendment involve the question of whether or not the change will affect, advantageously or otherwise, the poor people who are involved?

The CHAIRMAN

It is perfectly in order to argue that the burgh council or the county council would not be a better body to administer these functions, but the hon. Member seems to be discussing the whole question of the Poor Law by itself.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

I will be guided by you, Sir. I am very sorry that at the very beginning of this discussion I should be ruled out of order. I do not see how this is going to abolish poverty or tackle the poverty problem. That is the idea of the parish councils. That was the idea of the old Poor Law when it was instituted. It is all right for people who are comfortable and view the business from afar. Distance always lends enchantment to the view. But I want the Committee to realise how the working of capitalism is affecting the working-classes and to what this Government has reduced the working-class, and how the Secretary of State is bringing forward a Bill that is not going to ease the situation one little bit. The abolition of the parish council is simply playing with the business. It is not doing any good, but is simply calling a spade a shovel, as if that would make any difference. We are going to oppose the Bill. We will use the greatest platform we have to draw the attention of the working-class to the absolute failure of the Government.

Captain FANSHAWE

The hon. and gallant Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair) who moved the Amendment is in favour of retaining the parish council, but I should like to ask him why he is so much in favour of retaining it. Is it only from the sentimental point of view, or is it really because he wants efficiency? If he wants efficiency, can he tell us how bodies that were brought into being 34 years ago must necessarily be the most efficient bodies for carrying on the very important duties of local government at this time? It is obvious that the whole system of working and of living has changed in the last 34 years, and, if we leave these people administering local government with a machine which will not function up to modern requirements, we are doing a great disservice not only to local government but to many public-spirited people who for a long time past have been attempting local government with a machine that is creaking and groaning and will not function at all. It is not fair to leave them with this machine. The parish councils are to be changed, not abolished. Some hon. Members will have us believe that we are going to take away the parish councils and that the whole of the local affairs of the county are going to be turned over to a central body which has no knowledge of local affairs. Nothing of the sort. The Government, in doing away with these unwieldly bodies, are going to set up better and more economic bodies to deal with the local position. Hon. Members opposite have overlooked a Government Amendment on the Paper setting up district councils in place of parish councils.

When we come to consider the whole question of parish councils, we find that there are 870 parishes, and 37 of them contain three-quarters of the paupers in the country. I agree that the Poor Law is one of the most important things which we have to consider. I do not go the length that hon. Members opposite go when they say the Poor Law should be abolished. We must certainly retain the local touch when giving relief to the poor and needy, and the district councils will keep this personal touch. Can anyone, in view of the figures of population alone, say that the area administered by the parish council is the most convenient area for local government? Again, what about the expenditure of these parish councils? Some of the big parish councils only spend 3 per cent. of the whole of their money on administration, while some of the smaller ones spend as much as 20 per cent. I do not want to weary the Committee with all sorts of reasons, I only want to bring to its notice these few points, which I think in themselves demand, in fairness to the people administering local government, as well as to local government itself, a reform in the boundaries—boundaries established 34 years ago and which have now become out of date. Obviously, those boundaries can only be retained if they give us the best possible form of local government; otherwise, they are not justified. I feel sure that, not only the majority of this Committee, but the majority of the people in the country, will favour the abolition of the parish councils and at the same time, as the Government propose, the retention of the great services of those people who have hitherto administered local government in the parish councils in Scotland.

Major-General Sir ROBERT HUTCHISON

My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair) has shown why the parish councils in the rural areas ought not to be handed over to these new county bodies. In regard to the burghs also, I venture to say that the reasons offered for handing them over to the county councils cannot hold water, and the arguments are much stronger in favour of their retention as they are. The Bill has been very largely departed from since it first appeared in print. Very few real functions remain in the Bill, and I fail to see why it cannot be dropped altogether. It is certainly not wanted by any of the people of Scotland, and it would be a very easy thing for the Government to give the people of Scotland what they ask, which is no interference with the present administration of affairs. In the White Paper which accompanied the first draft of the Bill, we were told that the reason for the various changes recommended was the inefficiency and overlapping under the present system. The parish councils of the burghs which I represent are certainly efficient and economical in the handling of Poor Law, and therefore it is for the right hon. Gentleman to prove that there exists inefficiency or overlapping and to justify the change proposed in the Bill.

If there is one thing wanted in handling the Poor Law it is personal touch. There is no administrative service administered in a more Christian spirit than the Poor Law in the various burghs which I represent. You have Committees there which are in close touch with the individual families which have unfortunately to accept relief; you have the cases of able-bodied unemployed, which come before these bodies under the administration of the Ministry of Labour, carefully investigated. Such close personal touch cannot be maintained in the larger areas to which the right hon. Gentleman proposes to hand over these functions. The Poor Law would be handled in a totally different way in the counties from the way it is handled in the burghs. Those who handle it in the burghs understand the conditions of the poor in their midst. The people in the counties understand what is required in the counties, but those county members of the new administrative bodies do not understand, nor can they understand, the administration of the Poor Law in a burgh. I fail to see, therefore, under what circumstances this change is advocated, seeing that the people who at present perform these functions are really efficient. My hon. Friend the Member for Forfar (Sir H. Hope) has pointed out the tremendous burden of the able-bodied poor on the rates. I admit it, and if the energies of the Government, now being expended on this de-rating proposal, were directed, as we on this bench wish, to removing the whole of the burden of the unemployed from the rates, we should get the necessary relief.

This idea which the Government have that you can make something better by change has to he proved. You have to prove inefficiency; you have to prove that the present system is wasteful, and that the people who are receiving relief will get better relief and better services, from the new body. I venture to say it will be difficult to prove that. Further, in handing over these functions to county authorities are you satisfied that those county authorities have the time to devote to them? I have heard county councillors say that they are already quite unable to verify and go through the multitude of various accounts which come before them at their various meetings; how they are going to look into and examine the accounts of the Poor Law administration when this extra burden is placed upon them I cannot understand. On this point, namely, the verification of accounts and the general control of money that is involved, I am afraid that the administration will break down. We should like to have some assurance that this point has been looked into.

Then again, you are going to take away this administrative service from the direct control of the people; you are going to have, not an elected body, but a body very largely nominated, to deal with these services. What is the reason for that? Surely if the people elect members for the administration of the Poor Law, they should continue to do so on the new body. It is a retrograde step to add nominated members to an administration of this kind. Members of Parliament have been approached at great expense from the whole of Scotland and especially from the burghs. The cost must have been prodigious in picking out the various points of argument, putting them into print, and sending representatives to London to see Members of Parliament and the Secretary of State. All this expense has been unnecessary, because I believe that the administration—and I speak largely from the burgh point of view—has been good. People have in the past given their time freely and voluntarily to this great work. That will not be so in the case of the new bodies, for the simple reason that the matter will be outside their area, and the meetings in many cases will be at such an hour that the members cannot reasonably be expected to attend.

There is another reason why I think it is wrong for the parish councils of burghs to be handed over to the larger areas. It may possibly be said that the burden on a particular burgh is so heavy that you desire to distribute it over a larger area. But surely the burgh is the best judge of that. They know what the burden has been on their shoulders from year to year, and surely they ought to be consulted, and their consent obtained before such an alteration is made. It is quite a fallacy to say that this burden would be more evenly distributed if you have larger areas. I am sorry my hon. Friend the Member for Forfar is not in his place, because I should have liked to refer to a letter which he sent to the "Times" quite recently, in which he pointed out that if something were not done for arable farming there would be a very large increase in the number of unemployed in the agricultural districts. If that be so, the counties will have quite enough to do without taking on the additional burden of looking after the burgh poor. For this and other reasons, I think the Secretary of State would be well advised to accept this Amendment, and leave the parish councils in the burghs to carry on their work, for which they have proved themselves efficient, and which, I am satisfied, has given very good results for the amount of money expended. I do hope that the right hon. Gentleman will agree to accept the Amendment.

Lieut.-Colonel SHAW

This afternoon we have listened to several speeches from hon. Members opposite, and I must say I am very much surprised that there has not been greater criticism. I had anticipated that hon. Members opposite would have raised their voices more loudly on this subject. We have heard the hon. and gallant Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair), but his trouble is entirely in the Highlands, and was not quite relevant to what was in the minds of his supporters. The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) raised a point which seemed to have little to do with this matter. After all, this Bill will give to local authorities an even greater power than they have had before. It is very easy for hon. Gentlemen opposite to criticise the Government, but their criticism is not of a very constructive kind. What has it amounted to so far? The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs said, "All you are doing is to call a spade a shovel." That is his contribution to the Debate. I quite appreciate the point of view of the hon. and gallant Member for Montrose Burghs (Sir R. Hutchison). To him, it is chiefly a question of cost. That has always been a rather critical point in his party. He told us of all the expense that the local authorities have been put to in writing to Members of this House, and sending down deputations from Scotland. But is this all the constructive criticism that two of the Scottish leaders of the Liberal party have to offer? As far as other Members of the Opposition are concerned, I have no doubt they will be able to produce some arguments later on, but I hope they will realise that this is not an attempt to diminish the administrative authority of small local bodies. Their authority is increased.

An HON. MEMBER

You are really abolishing them.

Lieut.-Colonel SHAW

No, the Government's intention is to increase their authority, because they will be able in a larger body to represent their own particular locality.

Mr. WESTWOOD

Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman explain what this means in Command Paper 3222: The following existing bodies will disappear:—Education authorities, parish councils, district boards of control," etc.?

Lieut.-Colonel SHAW

I quite appreciate that hon. Members opposite are trying to make out that we are endeavouring to take away from these local authorities—

Mr. STEPHEN

Abolish.

5.0 p.m.

Lieut.-Colonel SHAW

Yes, but I am trying to point out that we are really giving to the local members of these new authorities a greater power in that they can represent, on these new authorities, more than they could on the small parish councils. I am certain, if hon. Members opposite would only realise that this is not an attempt in any way to decrease local authorities in Scotland but to increase them and, by unification, to make for greater efficiency, that they would not have so much opposition to this Bill.

Mr. WHEATLEY

I think that right hon. and hon. Members who are representing the Government on the Front Bench owe a duty to the Committee. I wish they would take their followers outside and explain the Bill to them, because the time at our disposal is very limited. If we are to be subjected to speeches such as the last two that we have heard from the hon. and gallant Member for Stirling and Clackmannan (Captain Fanshawe) and the hon. and gallant Member for Western Renfrew (Lieut.-Colonel Shaw), then our time is going to be much curtailed. The hon. and gallant Member for Stirling and Clackmannan told us that we were really setting up improved parish councils in the district councils which are now proposed. If he will turn to the White Paper issued by the Government on the subject he will see that there is only a very remote chance of Poor Law affairs being discussed by these district councils at all. The heading of it is "Powers and Duties of District Councils." It says: The functions of district councils will include, among other things:—(a) Functions under Part IV of the Local Government (Scotland) Act (Parish Buildings, Recreation Grounds, Rights of Way); (b) Parish trusts so far as not relating to the poor or to churchvards or burial grounds; (c) Public Libraries; and (d) Allotments. It is quite true if we read further in that paragraph that it seems possible that, through a scheme receiving the approval of the Secretary of State for Scotland, some of the Poor Law work may be delegated to the parish councils; but the claim that these are a substitute for the present parish councils is to exhibit complete ignorance of the purpose and contents of the Bill. The hon. and gallant Member for Western Renfrew treated us to an exposition of almost the same doctrine, and, as both hon. Members agreed in their misunderstanding, I will not take up further time of the Committee in attempting to criticise them.

I am supporting the Amendment before the Committee. I think one can do so while admitting that many of the small parish councils in Scotland, particularly those beloved by the hon. and gallant Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair), who introduced the Amendment—the rural parish councils—are political fossils, composed of people who believe that poverty is due to the depravity of the poor and that Poor Law institutions really exist for the purpose of administering punishment.

Lieut.-Colonel MOORE

That is an attack on the parish councils of Scotland who administer the Poor Law.

Mr. WHEATLEY

Even if we hold that view of parish councils here and there, we must always remember, in considering the principles underlying questions like these, that political power is not granted conditionally on individuals or bodies performing their political duties exactly as other people would like. I have no doubt that if the Scottish Health Department exercised the same vigour in stimulating reactionary parish councils as they do in restraining progressive parish councils, there would be very few parish councils that would be open to criticism at the moment. No one on these benches believes that the object of the Bill is the betterment of the poor. As has been already pointed out, this Bill was made in England. The Secretary of State for Scotland is merely the message-boy of the Minister of Health; he is sent here with instructions to abolish the Scottish parish councils; he is carrying them out faithfully; and I have no doubt he will see their execution through with conspicuous ability. The real object of the Bill, and particularly of this Clause, is to suppress what is called Poplarism. Poplarism has been attacked by a storm of misrepresentation from the other side of the House, to which storm, unfortunately, one or two Members on our own benches have bent. Poplarism has been attacked as if it were something evil in the public administration of the country, but to describe Poplarism in that way is either to speak in ignorance or in selfishness. Poplarism takes care of the poor and leaves the rich to take care of themselves. That is really the essence of Poplarism.

Mr. MACQUISTEN

I thought that there were no rich in Poplar.

Mr. WHEATLEY

There may be no rich in Poplar, but we have had plenty of grumbles from people who are not poor. The underlying motive of this Clause is to protect the rich from the poor, not to protect the poor from the rich. The economy of all this is mere parsimony. As has been pointed out repeatedly, the Government themselves are largely responsible for the problem with which we are confronted. It arises very largely from a burden thrown on the local Poor Law authorities by the maintenance of the unemployed and their dependants. Unemployment has increased enormously since the advent of the present Government. I do not think that they have been any year in office when unemployment has not been on the increase, and the number of unemployed is probably 250,000 greater now than it was when we left office in 1924.

Lieut.-Colonel SHAW

What about April, 1926?

Mr. WHEATLEY

Yes, but what about September, 1914? You are always ready to criticise the workers when they come to fight for themselves.

The CHAIRMAN

The right hon. Gentleman no doubt was provoked by interruption, but he is really going a good deal away from discussion of the Amendment.

Mr. WHEATLEY

I am sorry that I was tempted by the interruption from the opposite benches into paths which we dare not tread. My point was that the Government are largely responsible for the problem with which we are confronted. Unemployment, with all its consequences, has brought poverty in Scotland such as no previous parish councils have been called upon to deal with. The Government have seen all through, in their treatment of this problem of poverty, that the rich were sheltered from paying their fair share of the maintenance of the unemployed and their dependants. The present Bill does nothing to alter that general principle. It is true that it spreads the maintenance of the able-bodied and their dependants over a larger area of ratepayers, but it does nothing to lift the burden of the maintenance of the unemployed from the shoulders of the ratepayer to those of the taxpayer. It still leaves all those men who are making millions of money through finance, and by exploiting the nation, to go scot free, without bearing any charge or burden for the victims of the system by which they make their millions. That is one of our chief objections to the Bill.

We submit that the object of spreading the maintenance of the unemployed over wider areas could have been achieved without abolishing the parish councils at all. It could have been done through a system of amalgamation, through amalgamating the parish councils where necessary, and enlarging the rating areas where necessary. In this Bill, there is a very grave step towards the abolition of democracy in the government of this country. The very centre of the Bill is that it is departing from devolution and democracy to a system of centralisation and bureaucracy. No introduction of co-opted members will get away from the charge that is maintained within the covers of this Bill. The Government are throwing the political wisdom of centuries into the waste-paper basket. They are allowing that to be done by people who are mere political office-boys in the transaction, and who are sent here to carry out instructions to ruin the institutions of a nation without the consent of and against the opposition of that nation. It is not as though there were any proposal before us for abolishing the Poor Law. The Poor Law is to remain, with all its taint and all its objections. The poor will still be treated differently from other citizens. We shall have this position in the city of Glasgow, that the corporation responsible for the administration of the Poor Law will be compelled to treat the sick poor differently from the way in which it at present treats sick citizens who do not come under the Poor Law. That is a most objectionable situation. The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland seems to object to my statement—

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Major Elliot)

indicated assent.

Mr. WHEATLEY

I am submitting that the Glasgow Corporation will be compelled to treat the sick people who come under the Poor Law in a different manner from that in which they are treating people suffering from infectious diseases. They will be treated as two different classes of people. Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman wish to question that?

Major ELLIOT

Certainly, I do not wish to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but he must know that the position is not as he has represented it.

Mr. WHEATLEY

I am submitting, very seriously, that it is as I represent.

I submit that the sick are to be treated in Poor Law institutions under the town council, even when the Poor Law is administered by the Glasgow Corporation, and that they will be proceeding under quite different Acts of Parliament. In the one case they will be proceeding under the Public Health Act, and in the other case under the Acts dealing with Poor Law administration, and that there will be, if not quite different systems, two quite different spirits controlling the methods of dealing with the sick by a council like that of the city of Glasgow. If there had been any attempt made, or thought of, for treating the poor in exactly the same manner as we now treat infectious disease, I think a very strong case could have been made out for the step that is being taken. We have no reason to assume that we have seen the height of poverty in our industrial centres. Poverty has been steadily increasing since the present Government came into office, and all the signs are that poverty will continue to increase not only while we have the present Government in office, but while we have to live under the present capitalist arrangement of society. That being so, we have to bear in mind the ever-increasing duties that are necessarily associated with the administration of Poor Law relief.

I would remind the Committee of the enormous growth that has taken place during the past 30 or 40 years in the civic duties of a corporation like that of the City of Glasgow. Thirty or 40 years ago they had no trouble in looking after trams, gas, child welfare or scores of things which they do to-day. Think of the enormous responsibility of the increased duties which have been placed upon their shoulders during the past 10 years in regard to housing! When I was a member of the corporation of Glasgow, 16 years ago, the number of dwelling houses owned by the corporation was, approximately, 2,000. We have now sufficient evidence to show that within the next two or three years the number will have become 70,000. Think of the additional duties that the increase in house building and in housing administration throws on our principal civil authority. Are we proceeding on the right lines in heaping upon that authority the additional burden now proposed? Is there any limit to the amount of work which a corporation like that of Glasgow can properly do? Anyone familiar with its working will know that only comparatively small supervision is given by the councillors to the work of the officials, because the councillors can only give part of their time to the services of the city. They cannot be expected to supervise properly, completely and constantly all the operations that Parliament casts upon them.

At a time when the civic duties in themselves are increasing, the Government take the opportunity of heaping upon them the duties now performed by the parish councils and the duties now performed by the education authorities. The whole result of that is bound to be that there will be more and more responsibility for the administration of the affairs of the city thrown upon the officials of the corporation. Fortunately, up to now, Glasgow has had the service of officials who are a credit to our public life, but I would ask hon. Members not to forget that democracy was introduced because of the frailty of human nature in officials. Although we may be fortunate for a long time, let us never forget that that frailty still exists and that if we continue heaping on to the local authorities more and more work, it can only mean leaving the officials less and less controlled by the elected representatives. In doing that, we are tempting the weakness of human nature, and we are on a dangerous road which may ultimately lead to disaster. Democracy is a necessary check to the most competent officials, and we are making a dangerous departure in scrapping democracy in the way proposed, and entering upon the lines of bureaucracy.

The Secretary of State for Scotland will, no doubt, tell us that the corporation of Glasgow support this Measure, and that amongst those supporters are members of the party to which I have the honour to belong. We all know that that is true, and we know why it is true. There is in human nature a craving for more and more power, but the argument that the corporation crave for more power and that even some Socialist members of the corporation crave for more power, is no reason why we should grant that power. For the very same reason, I could point out that Conservative members of parish councils and education authorities oppose the Bill, although politically they are in agreement with the Government. We should leave out of account the craving for power either by a parish council or a city council or a county council as any reasonable consideration in coming to a decision. If we could do that, if we had a party system which would allow us to do that, I have no doubt as to the decision that would be arrived at, at least by the Scottish Members. If we had a free vote of the Scottish Members, we should have an overwhelming majority against the adoption of this Bill. Why cannot the Government for once, on a question which strikes deep down into the roots of sentiment and history in Scotland, allow Scotland to decide what its future shall be? The Government are afraid to do that. The Secretary of State for Scotland dare not get up and say that he will do that. His colleagues, representing Divisions of Gasgow, knowing quite well that all the criticisms that we are levelling against the Bill are sound and substantial, are forced to support the Government.

The CHAIRMAN

I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that we are not now discussing the Bill, but one proposal.

Mr. WHEATLEY

I need not say that, as far as the Poor Law side of the Bill is concerned, the vote on this Amendment determines the future of Poor Law administration in Scotland. The point I was making was that this Clause is being imposed upon Scotland from outside, and that it is opposed by the vast majority of people who have any experience in the administration of Scottish local affairs. It is not the voice of the people of Scotland; it is the voice of Whitehall being administered from Edinburgh. It is a sheer cowardly submission to the views of people who know nothing about Scotland, who know nothing about its sentiments and who care less. If this question were viewed in the light of the general principles of democratic government, if it were left to the decision of the Scottish Members, there would be no doubt about the fate of the Bill. It would disappear from discussion within the next few hours.

Mr. SKELTON

I think it is not improper to preface my remarks by congratulating the Opposition upon the fact that in the first hour and three-quarters of our discussion we have had a speech from a Privy Councillor. Moreover, there are three Privy Councillors sitting on the Front Opposition Bench. In the course of the English Bill, I think I am right in saying, there was only one Cabinet Minister from the Labour Benches who ever took the trouble to speak. Therefore, I think we have made rather a good start on the Scottish Bill. I cannot say that I think the right hon. Gentleman has got his facts or his history of Scottish local government perfectly correct, because on an Amendment dealing with the abolition of the parish council he talks of the deep, historical roots of that body. I do not forget, much as I respect their work, that the historic roots of the parish councils date from 1894. The parish councils, which are the subject of discussion now, date from 1893 in England and from 1894 in Scotland.

Sir A. SINCLAIR

The root is in the parish.

Mr. SKELTON

The parish root began in 1894 as far as the councils are concerned. Although we may congratulate ourselves upon the Debate, we cannot congratulate ourselves upon the points that have been made in favour of the Amendment. The most substantial point which has been made was made by the hon. and gallant Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair). He said, as I understood him, that the great defect of abolishing the parish councils in the Highland counties and substituting, as the new Clause will substitute, district councils, is that the parishes in the Highlands are large, and a quite large enough unit already. That is a perfectly sound point, but I think my hon. and gallant Friend has entirely forgotten that the provisions in regard to the area of the new district council is that in no case should it be less in size than an electoral district for the county council.

Sir A. SINCLAIR

Where is that provided?

Mr. SKELTON

I think my hon. and gallant Friend will find that I am right. If he will look at the last White Paper he will find, casting his eye over the Highland counties, that in the great majority of cases the Highland parishes are large, separate county council electoral units. Therefore, there is absolutely nothing in this scheme to involve a combination of parishes of such a size that they should be left separate. Of course, it is the duty of the Opposition to point out every possible danger, but when you require that the schemes are to be prepared by the county councils, which know the districts, and many members of which are also members of the parish councils, I think the danger suggested is a purely illusory one. It is a danger which, I confess, I was at one time inclined to fear, but I believe it has, in fact, no substance at all.

With regard to the scheme of combination, for that is what it really is, of rural parish councils elsewhere, surely it has everything to commend it, for amongst the bodies concerned with the alterations brought in by this Bill the parish councils were almost unique in making constructive suggestions, and probably the most constructive suggestion was that there should be in many cases combinations of parishes. That is what this Bill will bring about, the only difference being that the new combined council is to be called the district council instead of the parish council. So much for the county districts. I cannot see how it can be said, in the county districts at all events, that under these alterations there is any attack or possible attack upon democratic local government. I cannot see that a popularly-elected body ceases to be democratic if it is elected by a combination of parishes, but is democratic if elected by one parish. That kind of argument may be good enough for certain platforms, but I am convinced that it is not good enough for the House of Commons. May I take this opportunity of congratulating my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, that in his arrangement for district councils he has made allowance for their raising a larger rate? I shall not expand on that subject, because I see how near the possible limits of order I am. Therefore let me return to the main question of the parish council. On Second Reading I made a speech urging my right hon. Friend not to give up the smaller units of local government in the country areas, and, as far as I am concerned, I am perfectly satisfied that the provision that he is making fully meets the requirements of the case.

Let me turn for a moment to a subject which has been more canvassed in Scotland and which, though I do not think it has been put forward with great force this afternoon, is undoubtedly a subject of importance with regard to the abolition of parish councils. Let us turn to the question of the abolition of parish councils in the urban areas. The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken said something about them, but he made his speech only a peg on which to hang a general disquisition upon democratic government, in the principles of which I find nothing to disagree with. Is it really worth while, or is there any constitutional principle which makes it either necessary or desirable to preserve the elected parish councils in urban districts where the general control of the Poor Law is being put into the hands either of county councils or town councils? In my submission there really is nothing to be gained, and I say that for this reason: It appears to me that the sound constitutional doctrine on this kind of question is as follows: Wherever you have rating power you must have popular election. If this scheme were to retain the rating power for Poor Law in the hands of the parish council in the towns and cities, I should be the last to agree to the abolition of an elected parish council, but as I know that the Poor Law is being transferred to other bodies, and though no doubt there are estimates committees nominated by town councils or county councils, as the case may be, in the separate burghs, for the administration of Poor Law relief, they will not be rating authorities.

Therefore, there is nothing gained by their popular election. It can hardly be doubted that a town council of a burgh is perfectly well fitted for the work, as it has the close local knowledge which was the strong point made by those who favoured local administration. I am sure they will be perfectly fitted to pick out from amongst the citizens those who from their interest in social work, in Poor Law relief and in questions of that sort, are qualified to be members of the committee which may very well carry out the actual administration of the Poor Law. I do not say that merely because I am speaking from the Benches which support this Bill, for I have given as close thought as I can to the question of the retention or abolition of parish councils, and I do not think there is any reason for maintaining parish councils in cases where they will have no rating powers. These cases, of course, are the cases, not of the landward parish councils but of the burgh parish councils.

I most definitely challenge the right hon. Gentleman who spoke last to point to any case of any importance in which popular election has been thought necessary in any civilised country for bodies which have no rating power. The relation between election and finance is, as he knows better than anyone, perhaps, very close. Therefore in the urban districts—[Interruption,] I am quite accustomed to the interruption of the hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie), but I have never yet found them either relevant or important, and I do not propose to begin a private conversation with him here, though I shall have great pleasure in doing so outside. I was referring to the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman who spoke last. I say to the larger audience which as interested in the question of whether or not the urban parish councils in Scotland should be retained, that there is no question of popular election having any constitutional necessity, except where rating is involved.

I have covered, very ineffectively I fear, such few arguments as have been put forward against the abolition of parish councils under this Bill. For my part, I am satisfied that it was essential that in the rural districts there should be some unit of local government less extensive than the county. That want is to be met. I am equally satisfied that in burghs, and particularly in small burghs, where you have active and popularly-elected town councils, the co-existence with them of popularly-elected parish councils with no rating authority, is a method of local government which is quite unnecessary and for which there is no constitutional foundation whatever.

Mr. STEWART

I am fortunate in having served for nine years as a member of the largest parish council in Scotland. I have also served for many years as a member of the largest town council in Scotland. I think I know something about both bodies. If it is the case of a relief committee dealing with applications for relief, whether indoor or out- door, you have to be there at ten o'clock in the morning and to work till 12 or later in the forenoon. We did that in the parish council with which I was connected. You do that duty once every three weeks. You sit for five days in the week. Between 12 and one o'clock, or perhaps a little earlier, you are released from your duties as the relief committee. Then you begin the ordinary work of the parish council, which may occupy you until three or four o'clock in the afternoon on the days when you have committees to attend. Further, you have still your duties to carry out in the visitation of your institution, and on the days when you are visiting the institutions, whether they are mainly parochial or connected with the Lunacy Board, which is part of the parish council, you have perhaps a half day or a whole day to do that work. I tell this to hon. Members, because I want them to understand the duties that a large parish council has to undertake.

It has been said by some speakers that under the new proposals—they are not contained in the Bill, but are contained in a White Paper—it will be possible to delegate powers from the enlarged town council or county council to district councils. That is not true. So far as I have been able to read the Bill, there is no proposal and no suggestion made that the new district councils should have delegated to them the duties of parish councils. The Bill states, if I remember correctly—I am speaking from memory—that the duties that are not to be delegated to the district council are education, public health and police, but in no part is it said that the duties of the parish councils, which under the Bill are imposed on county councils or town councils—large burghs—are to be handed over to the district councils. It does not even say "may." It says nothing at all like that. It says only that outside these three duties other duties may be delegated.

Therefore, you have this position—that a county council will not delegate to the district council, while you may have a county council that will delegate to a district council. So you will have absolute confusion in the administration of the Poor Law. Unless the Government's decisions are much clearer and more definite, as embodied in the Bill, confusion will be worse confounded. Now it is proposed to delegate to town councils the duties of the parish councils. The town council of Glasgow, a city of some importance—no mean city in some aspects, but in other aspects I hesitate to say whether it is mean or not—is to have handed over to it the duty of administering the Poor Law. That town council is already overburdened with work. There are several Members of this House who have been members of the Glasgow Corporation and they will agree that that is so. What may be said of the town council of Glasgow may be said also of Edinburgh or Dundee or Aberdeen, though perhaps in a slightly lesser degree. When I joined the Glasgow town council in 1909, the duties of the health authority were comparatively slight. We dealt with infantile mortality, but that did not mean that we had the functions that we undertake now regarding child welfare. We had no relationship to maternity, no need to provide country homes or anything of that kind. We had no clinics, no maternity hospitals—nothing of that kind at all. We had no treatment for tuberculosis. Nothing was done, in many directions, in regard to public health where duties have now to be performed. I submit with some degree of knowledge, that membership of an authority which has to deal with public health is a matter which means full duty to a man who is only able to give spare time. Having regard to other matters like sewerage, police, lighting, etc., his work on the local authority will take him every day in the week, from 12 o'clock until 3. Apart from that he may have special duties. He may be a magistrate of the city, and that will mean beginning his work at nine in the morning and finishing at five or six o'clock in the evening.

The Government are going to thrust these new duties upon the town councils. Do they realise where they are traveling? It comes to this—that the duty of a town councillor in a corporation such as Glasgow's, is going to be as much a full-time duty as membership of the House of Commons. With that will come a demand for the necessary provision of payment of members to do the work. Do hon. Members think that all this work in the circumstances I have indicated can be done properly and well? It may be that there are directions in which it could be done, but the Government are giving us no guidance in the matter. They are making no provision to ensure that things shall be properly done. It is suggested that by having larger areas, we shall do the work better. Is Inverness to be an area for a parish council? Are Sutherland and Caithness to be areas for parish council work? How in the name of goodness is the work going to be done at all if we are to have such large areas?

As has been said already, the Government are going to thrust upon the town councils in connection with the duty of dealing with the Poor Law, a great deal of public health administration. I do not regret that in itself. I have always stood, in the past, as a Member of a parish council for the principle of one authority to deal with all forms of public health. I stand to-night for the same principle and I wish to see it an accomplished fact, but what are the Government going to bring us in these proposals? If they were proposing what was best for public health in the joining up of all parts of health administration, I would not be standing here opposing this proposal, but that is not what the Government are doing. At present, for instance, we treat maternity cases practically free. The midwife who attends on a maternity case is authorised by the local authority to call in a doctor if necessary and the local health authority foots the bill. They may or they may not charge the person who has been attended by the doctor. Under the new provisions, however, we would be compelled to pursue such a case to the end to secure a refund of the money.

Then I ask hon. Members to consider the ever enlarging scope of infectious diseases which the public health authorities are treating. We are treating many diseases now, which would not have been treated by public health authorities a few years ago. Tuberculosis, fever and venereal disease, will still be treated as infectious diseases, but there are other forms of disease which have not yet been described as infectious. For example, I do not know if cancer is one of the infectious diseases, and when we have to treat cancer we will have to make a charge for it. But the person treated for venereal disease will have no charge made. One of my main reasons for my opposition to this proposal is that it is going to pauperise public health. I was looking forward to and hoping for the day, when all health matters of every kind, would be treated by the local authority as a duty which it was the privilege of the local authority to perform in the interests of health and the humanity that is related to public health. I stand against this proposal on the ground that it is a retrograde step which will do harm to Poor Law administration and, worse still, to public health administration in Scotland.

The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour)

A stranger listening to this Debate would suppose that the policy which the Government have laid before the Committee, and the proposals which they are making, were being thrust upon an unwilling Scotland. We have heard no kind of suggestion from hon. Members opposite of the fact that these matters have ever been considered within the bounds of Scotland either by administrators of the great public services, or by any of the numerous bodies set up in the past to inquire into these problems—bodies composed of Scotsmen and Scotswomen, limited not to one political party but representing every section of the community. The truth is that, whatever differences of opinion there may be as to the proposals of the Government and the Amendment of the hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair), this problem has been discussed in Scotland by bodies of competent persons, and recommendations have been made by those bodies for the abolition of these parish councils. I am surprised that an hon. Gentleman who signed one of those Reports should, to-day, as Member for St. Rollox (Mr. Stewart), stand here and disown the signature which he appended without reservation to a proposal for the abolition of the parish councils.

Mr. STEWART

I plead guilty at once to the signature, but may I explain once again, as I have explained previously, that it was not merely the abolition of the parish council but the abolition of the Poor Law which I supported?

Sir J. GILMOUR

I am afraid the hon. Member cannot ride off entirely free on that plea. The Report was that the transfer of the functions of the parish council to the county council would simplify to a certain extent the administration of public assistance. There was no question of the abolition of the Poor Law. The actual recommendation was: We recommend that the transfer of the health and Poor Law functions of parish councils in Scotland should be effected in a manner similar to that recommended in the Local Government Committees Report (the Maclean Committee) subject to the modifications necessary to harmonise the transfer with the reform of local health administration which we propose.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

As you are so sure of yourself, why not take off your Whips and leave it to Scotland?

Sir J. GILMOUR

It has been suggested that my colleagues and I have brought forward these proposals without any sort of consultation with Scotland. I feel constrained to say that in so far as the policy dealing with Scotland has been concerned, it has not been dictated by any English Minister. It has been discussed by myself and my colleagues throughout the length and breadth of Scotland and every opportunity has been given—to an extent of which I am well aware—of meeting deputations on these subjects. If any further justification were required for dealing with this long overdue problem, recognised by one Government after another as a problem which ought to be dealt with, that justification is to be found in the Yellow Book issued by the right hon. Baronet's own party: At present our local government is a mass of anomalies and intricacies due to long-past historical origins. Overlapping, inefficiency, complications and inequity exist everywhere, due to the variety of local government areas and to their failure to correspond to the facts and necessities of to-day. When I received a deputation of parish councils, one admission which even those gentlemen made to me was that the existing areas did not correspond to the existing conditions. Like all who run the risk of the Guillotine, they said: "Spare us if you can"; but they acknowledged the fact that the present areas, having grown up out of "long-past historical origins" as the Yellow Book points out, do not correspond to the circumstances or necessities of the times in which we live. Following on a natural anxiety expressed during the Second Reading of the Bill, we propose, while transferring the great major services of the Poor Law from the parish councils, to move an Amendment retaining the local district councils and in so far as that is provided for, there will be available the local knowledge and local touch to which reference has been made. It is an essential part of the Government's scheme.

6.0 p.m.

Mr. WHEATLEY

Is it intended to amend the present Bill so that it will be an obligation on the county councils to delegate the administration of the Poor Law to these district councils?

Sir J. GILMOUR

If the right hon. Gentleman will take the trouble to study the Amendments on the Paper, he will see that it is provided that the new central authorities, the reconstituted county councils, have to produce schemes which have to satisfy all those concerned, not only those who make the schemes, but any objectors who have the opportunity of raising points of objection, and eventually the central Department of the Minister, that they are making in their schemes adequate provision for the proper carrying on of the duties which fall upon them.

Mr. WHEATLEY

In the paper that I have in my hand, the right hon. Gentleman states quite clearly, distinctly and specifically the duties that are to be dealt with by these councils: (a) Functions under Part IV of the Local Government (Scotland) Act (Parish Buildings, Recreation Grounds, Rights of way); (b) Parish trusts so far as not relating to the poor or to churchyards or burial grounds. The right hon. Gentleman seems to be extremely anxious to impress it upon this House that they will not have anything to do with the Poor Law, but now he tells us that they will have. Is it to be uniform, and is it to be an obligation on the city and county authorities?

Sir J. GILMOUR

If the right hon. Gentleman will study closely the Bill and the Amendments, he will see that those duties which he has just cited are the particular statutory duties belonging to the new district councils, but that does not deal with those other powers and duties, which now go to the central authority, but which may be, and will be in a large measure, delegated under the scheme to be introduced of delegating to these district councils certain duties of administration.

Mr. WHEATLEY

I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon for pressing this point, but it is extremely important. The Committee wishes to know whether the Secretary of State for Scotland, in the schemes that he is asking the local authorities to submit, intends to insist on the Poor Law administration being delegated to the district councils.

Sir J. GILMOUR

Obviously, what I intend is to give a very large measure of judgment to the new central authorities which are being set up. They are the elected representatives of the people charged to carry out certain duties, but it is also clearly indicated that those bodies shall submit definite schemes showing in detail how they will carry out those duties, and it is quite obvious that in the case of the Poor Law there must be within those schemes such measure of arrangement as will ensure that immediate relief is given to the necessities of people within the district. In so far as the schemes are concerned, they obviously must contain in them adequate measures for dealing with that problem—

Mr. WHEATLEY

By the district councils?

Sir J. GILMOUR

Either by them or by any other means which the central body may—

Mr. SHINWELL

Would it not follow from that, that in the submission of schemes there may be provision in connection with one scheme for the delegation of Poor Law functions to a district council, whereas in the submission of other schemes there may be no such delegation, and would not that lead to a variation in functions so far as district councils are concerned?

Mr. WHEATLEY

The right hon. Gentleman says that the central authorities, the town and county councils, will be required to show in detail how the Poor Law, among other things, will be administered. If they show that it will be administered by the town council or the county council, and not by these district councils, would that satisfy the Scottish Office?

Sir J. GILMOUR

Of course, that is a purely hypothetical question. Obviously, these new central bodies, having these new duties handed over to them, must judge of the circumstances with which they have to deal, and, if I may venture to say so, the real essence of this scheme is that it is left with a large amount of elasticity to deal with the peculiar problems of each particular area. The right hon. Baronet complained that some areas in existing parishes in the Highlands are already too large. Very well, if that is definitely the case and is held to be the case by the new authorities elected, obviously under these proposals which we have suggested, under the schemes, they can set up their areas to suit the circumstances of to-day and not of yesterday. It is clear that in each one of these cases there ought to be given considerable freedom in the method of dealing with this problem. All I will say is this, that by the abolition of the parish councils, and by the withdrawing of these services from them to the main central body, there still remains, through the method of these schemes, the clear possibility, and indeed the necessity, of these schemes showing to the central authority, and against any criticism which may be made by those concerned in the localities, the setting up of machinery which shall give immediate necessary relief under the Poor Law.

This problem is no new one. I think it is well known to everyone who has studied this question. I well remember, on the very first occasion when I came as a new Member to this House, that there had been reports upon the question of the Poor Law, and in the successive years which have passed, one body after another has urged the necessity of changes in the areas. The fact is that in Scotland our areas in over 800 parishes are completely out-of-date and out of touch with modern times and conditions. Very well, what we do is to abolish that machinery, because, after all, this is a case of machinery, and I would emphasise that too much weight is being placed by many people upon questions of past history, or of dignity, or of entrenchment in this or that body, and too little upon what is going to be the most essential and effective service for those whom this machinery is to serve. This is no party question.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

It should not be.

Sir J. GILMOUR

It ought not to be.

Mr. STEPHEN

Then take off the Whips.

Sir J. GILMOUR

This is the means of obtaining the best machinery possible for the administration of these duties.

Mr. HARDIE

Take off the Whips.

Sir J. GILMOUR

All I can say, in reply to hon. Members opposite, is that when a little time has passed I think they will realise that, by an endeavour to make party capital out of a problem of this kind, they are making a great mistake; and I venture to say that I welcome the tone in which the discussion to-day is being conducted, because I think we can really come to grips with these problems across the floor of this House. I suggest to hon. Members that the abolition of the parish councils is an essential part of this reconstruction, not only for the relief of the rating areas, but of reconstruction of local government for the better administration of these services. It is suggested that the council of, say, the great City of Glasgow is going to be inadequate or unable to deal with these problems. All I can say is that, if it were proposed to deal with this problem without a reconstruction of your machinery within these councils, that might well be the case, but let the Committee realise, and let these bodies realise, that they are new and reconstituted bodies, dealing with these problems afresh, with a clean slate, and with the power and possibility of so ordering their affairs that they will be able to set up committees of adequate and proper numbers to deal with this problem, not perhaps on the same basis on which some of these Committees are constituted to-day, but upon a new and a fresh basis.

I would despair of the future progress of my country if I thought that the attitude of mind of the hon. and gallant Member for Montrose (Major-General Sir R. Hutchison) was to be adopted, that the Government should withdraw this Bill, and that no further progress is either required or desirable in this problem in Scotland. [Interruption.] The hon. and gallant Member suggested that this Bill might well be withdrawn, and, if I heard him aright, he said the change suggested was repellent to the Liberal party—in face even of what the Yellow Book states.

Sir R. HUTCHISON

What I said was that there is now so little left of the original Bill, after so many points have been given away, that the Bill might be withdrawn, and enable us to get on with something else.

Sir J. GILMOUR

The alterations and differences which appear in the Bill to-day are alterations and differences made after long and careful consultation with all the parties concerned in Scotland, not dictated here at Whitehall, but which have taken place absolutely and entirely across the Border; and they represent in their latest form concessions to sentiment, on the one hand, but, I trust, even though giving way in some measure to sentiment, without a loss of practical efficiency. A great deal has been said on behalf of the parish councils, and I would repeat what I think I have said publicly before, that in making this change I am not making any accusations against the efficiency of many individuals working on these parish councils under the existing conditions. What I do say, is that they cannot have the fullest efficiency under these narrow and limited conditions, that a great number of them are personally well aware of that fact, that they realise that the time for a change has come, but that while with one hand we are, it is true, abolishing the existing parish council, we leave in its place a larger measure of efficiency, with a general power for dealing with these problems of health. I am surprised to think that hon. and right hon. Members do not appear to have realised that in future parts of this Bill, and under the Amendments which are on the Paper, we are definitely breaking into the existing Poor Law system, and that at a future time one will be able to speak of the treatment of the sick, in which an hon. Gentleman opposite is so deeply interested. I would venture to say that there is no personal taint upon the work of individuals in the parish councils of the past, but we must realise that they no longer fit the circumstances of the present. While we are abolishing these bodies we are definitely putting in their place a more efficient machine to carry on the service on behalf of those for whom, after all, we are mainly concerned.

Sir A. SINCLAIR

Two statements were made on important points of detail by hon. Members sitting opposite, and I should like to know if they were correct. The hon. Member for Forfar (Sir H. Hope) said that burial grounds were not to be transferred, but were to be left under the new district councils. Then the hon. Member for Perth (Mr. Skelton) said that the parish councils were to be preserved in their present areas when those areas were constituted as electoral divisions for the new county authorities.

Mr. SKELTON

Those were not my words. What I said was that the only requirement as to the area of the new district council was that it should not be less than the electoral area for the county council.

Mr. WHEATLEY

I should like to ask a question before the right hon. Gentleman sits down. The Under-Secretary questioned the statement that I made that the sick under the Poor Law would be treated in a different manner from the sick who are treated under the Public Health Acts. Is it the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to make it clear in this Bill that no claim will be made in future in Scotland for the treatment of the sick poor under the Poor Law?

Major ELLIOT

The right hon. Gentleman, I understood, was questioning whether the sick poor could be treated other than under the Poor Law under this Bill. It will be seen on page 487 of the Order Paper that they can be so treated. They can be treated without being entered upon the Poor Roll, which they would have been but for this Bill.

Mr. WILLIAM GRAHAM

The warmest friends of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Scotland will hardly deny that he has been seeking to defend an almost impossible administrative arrangement in Scotland. It is equally clear to the Committee that the speech which he has just made does not in any way remove the difficulties, which have been felt by Members in all parts of the Committee, regarding the precise functions of the reconstituted county council, and of the modification which he has introduced to the complete abolition of the parish council. Before I come to that part of the scheme, may I notice at least part of the common ground? None of us on this side of the Committee has disputed for a moment that many of our administrative units in Scotland are far too small, and we have always agreed that, when any time of unemployment or distress came and a large burden was imposed on the parish councils, that drawback or difficulty would be accentuated. That has been proved over a large part of Scotland since the industrial distress began in 1920. We agree with the importance of the larger administrative areas, but our suggestion is that what the Government are doing under this Bill is not to get rid of the undoubted anomalies and difficulties of the situation, but to introduce a plan which, as modified, contains more anomalies and difficulties from many points of view than the existing system.

What is the situation to-day? It may be said that there are two quite clear schools of thought. There has been the argument for many years that the proper way of treating this problem is to break up the Poor Law, and on this side of the Committee that is the case which we support this afternoon. Over and over again, in large scale analysis of that problem, it has has been shown that poverty is traceable to unemployment, to ill-health, to age and to a variety of other conditions which the State has treated, either under old age pensions, or national health insurance, or unemployment insurance, or in dozens of different directions; and that only to a very limited and disappearing extent had we any problem of poverty as such that fell to be met by a separate administrative body like the parish council. We have always argued that to be the true method of dealing with this situation, and accordingly I fail to see that there is anything inconsistent in reports or documents which colleagues on this side of the Committee have signed, when quite plainly they had that consideration in view. This plan proposes to wipe out about 860 separate local authorities, and to replace them by about 52, but nobody knows what the number will be when it is modified by the introduction of these district councils. A committee set up by the Scottish Board of Health in 1923 made for all practical purposes a unanimous report on this question of health provision and the parish council I am excluding the minority views which were expressed but, in substance, that committee undoubtedly recommended the abolition of the parish council and the transfer of their duties to the town and county council on a large and comprehensive scale.

If the Government had adhered to that programme, there might have been something to be said for their case, but, in point of fact, they have departed from it, and this is in practice the anomaly or the suggestion with which we are now faced. The Government propose to transfer to the large burghs these duties of the parish councils, and in the city areas of Scotland or in the large urban areas there is, as I understand in the scheme of the Secretary of State, no provision whatever for anything resembling the nature of this district council, which, according to his argument, is to preserve the local touch in Poor Law administration, and to secure the sympathy and tact which are undoubtedly essential to the scheme as long as it lasts. I do not dispute for a moment, and I have made it clear to the representatives of the large parish councils in the city areas, that it would be very difficult indeed to set up machinery from which you are taking away all the powers of rating, and, indeed, most of the other effective powers of ordinary effort alongside the municipal machinery in the large cities. They are entitled to point out, however, that you are treating them differently in view of the modifications brought forward for the establishment of these district councils.

Notice the position of the county under this scheme. The object of the Government was to get an administrative clearance of the field, but it is only fair to remember that all these vast complications were born of a desire for de-rating as applied to productive industries. In point of fact, this scheme differs in many respects from the comprehensive proposals of quite important commissions and committees which dealt with the Poor Law as a whole and with local administration, and which were not concerned with any change in our rating system in Scotland, either as embodied in the Scottish Rating Act, 1926, or in the de-rating proposals of the Government introduced last year, which tried to do something for the productive industries and the relief of unemployment. That was not before these authorities at all. The Secretary of State for Scotland has been driven into this position. He has been compelled to recognise the widespread opposition to the wholesale disappearance of the parish councils in practically all parts of Scotland.

He has been driven to recognise that there would be excessive centralisation in the county, and so he falls back on one of the alternatives which was before the Consultative Committee which reported on these services in 1923. There were really three suggestions made in that committee. The first was the retention of the status quo, which would simply have meant the perpetuation of the parish council as a unit. The next suggestion was a very drastic abolition of these bodies and the transfer of their duties to the enlarged cities of 50,000 population and upwards. Then there was the intermediate scheme of some form of representation of a larger area within the county. Eventually that body decided in favour of the large scale disappearance. Under the criticism of the past few months the Secretary of State introduced this intermediate body, and it is an altogether curious and, I venture to think, impossible administrative unit that he proposes to set up. According to the White Paper which has been circulated, these district councils are to have charge of parish buildings, parish trusts, and one or two other duties of that kind, but on another page of the White Paper it is specifically indicated that public health, education and police are excluded; and when the Secretary of State was pressed on the vital point of the Poor Law, he gave no precise or specific directions as to what is intended for these new district councils within the county authorities.

What the right hon. Gentleman said in effect was that he could not specifically say at this stage, but that schemes were to be submitted by the reconstituted county councils; and he said that while certain duties will be delegated, he cannot tell us what these duties will be, although information of that kind is vital to the Amendment which is before the Committee. Before we part with the parish councils under this Clause, we are entitled to know exactly what these new district bodies are to do, and the kind of powers that they are to possess. I imagine that what the Government intend, although I can only guess, is to ask these district councils, in whatever way they may be constituted under the schemes that are received, to look after certain tasks in the locality—it may be of the village or of a combination of villages—such as treating the applications for relief, or it may be in making payments, but if we are right in that assumption, will any hon. Member tell me what we are going to gain at this stage and in these circumstances by the abolition of the parish council?

While you have swept that body out of existence, under the first Clause of this Bill you are setting up some anomalous and shadowy force in the locality, with a certain amount of rating power, to discharge those duties which are the immediate and the urgent task of the parish councils at the present day. I think that on that ground we should be entitled to reject this Clause. We do not for one moment depart from our fundamental plea for the abolition of the Poor Law. We believe that is the only true reform. We are equally pledged to larger administration areas on sound lines, and more particularly the distribution of the rate burdens over a much larger area and over greater ability to pay; but we say to the Committee, and it will not challenge contradiction, that in this scheme the Government have only perpetrated another mass of anomalies in the localities, and they would be better advised to take back this part of their plan and, indeed, all parts of their plan, until clarity has been established.

Major MacANDREW

I hope that my right hon. Friend will oppose this Amendment, because if we look at the money which is dispensed among the poor in Scotland we find that the cost of administration varies from 3 per cent. in some parishes to 20 per cent. in others. It is perfectly clear that where the expenses are up to 20 per cent., great economy could be produced, and, surely, that economy would be reflected at once in the money to be given to the poor. For that reason, if for no other, this matter ought to have our urgent consideration. There are other points which ought to be considered. On the Second Heading of the Bill my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State gave us the instance of the County of Berwick, where there are 32 parish councils and 244 parish councillors to attend to 270 paupers. With cases such as that, something ought to be done, and done quickly. We have had the recommendations of the Munro Committee, and we have heard the official policy of the Liberal party, who see that this matter requires immediate attention. I note that one Member of the Liberal party shakes his head, and I do not know which section of the party agrees with me, but certainly the hon. and gallant Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) agrees. Apart, however, from the things I have cited, which, I think, show the necessity for some change, since the derating proposals of the Government have been put forward this question has become very much more urgent through the narrowing of the basis of taxation which will follow. Owing to de-rating we are going to bring the yield of a penny rate down to a very small sum indeed in many parishes. In one parish in my own constituency a penny rate on the reduced rateable value will raise just a fraction over £4. It is perfectly obvious, therefore, that some change has to be made, because if any large sum of money has to be raised in future the rate which will have to be levied will be perfectly appalling. This being the case, there is surely every argument for increasing the areas.

Sir A. SINCLAIR

It will apply equally to the county rates, will it not?

Major MacANDREW

It is absolutely essential that we should increase these areas. Another point is that if we have come to the conclusion that paying money on the percentage grant system is unfair to poor localities, which cannot get as much as the rich localities, and that we ought to give a block grant based on the formula, we must realise that the formula will only have a real chance to work if we have areas large enough to give it average conditions. If you are to have the block grant, it is absurd not to give it a chance to work fairly. From the point of view of the narrowing of the basis of taxation, apart altogether from the Report of the Munro Committee and the official policy of the Liberal party, I think the Amendment ought to be withdrawn.

Mr. ERNEST BROWN

The hon. and gallant Member ought to pursue his researches into the policy of the Liberal party a little further.

Mr. MacLAREN

Heaven forbid!

Mr. BROWN

I take the interjection to mean that the hon. Member for Burslem (Mr. MacLaren) is afraid that he might be converted, and support the Liberals after the next Election. The hon. and gallant Member, who states that this is the policy of the Liberal party, ought to know that it is nothing of the kind. From the point of view of those who drew up the Liberal party policy on Poor Law, it makes no difference at all whether you transfer the work of looking after the able-bodied poor from the Parish Council of Edinburgh to the Corporation of Edinburgh, but it would make all the difference to the able-bodied poor if you carried out the policy of the Liberal party, because then they would be set to work and the burden of them taken off the shoulders of both bodies. But I will not be led astray any further on this point.

With regard to the narrowing of the rating area, I am glad to find that the hon. and gallant Member has at last awakened to the fact that there is a great deal in the contention, which I persistently made during the discussion of the English Bill, that what the Government are doing is really destroying the rating basis in many of the rural areas. My answer to him is that there is no need to do what is proposed in this Clause on the ground that we are abolishing the assessment basis. All that need be done is to make up to the areas the amount we take from them. and then we shall be where we are. I was astonished at the answer which the right hon. Gentleman gave to the arguments which have been advanced from these benches. He told my hon. and gallant Friend that he was animated by sentimentality and by instinct. I have recently been reading a challenging book written by the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland called, "Toryism in the 20th Century." I will take two observations from that book to submit them to the Committee, and I would recommend the Secretary of State to read that work. The Under-Secretary says, when discussing Toryism, that it means the humility of the intellect and therefore a trust in continuity. That is to say, it expresses the instinctive outlook. If that be Conservatism, why should the right hon. Gentleman object to hon. Members ex- pressing the sentiment of instinctive continuity? On the other hand, the Under-Secretary also says that Liberalism is marked by an arrogance of intellect and a disbelief in tradition, and a conviction that what has once worked is probably outworn. If this argument of the Under-Secretary is accurate, it seems to me that the Liberals have gone over to those benches, because this Bill is certainly marked by an arrogance of intellect and shows a great break with tradition. Although, as the hon. and learned Member for East Perth (Mr. Skelton) pointed out, the present parish councils came into existence only in 1894, the tradition is a very long one, and, indeed, it may be described as a pious tradition.

The case for the Amendment is this: There are four issues involved. There is the question of the administration of the whole of the Poor Law services in Scotland. That is no small thing. So far, no member of the Committee has shown the magnitude of this problem. On 16th May last year there were 81,348 ordinary poor, and they had 50,000 dependants, making a total of 131,000. Of the able-bodied unemployed poor there were 29,386, with 62,000 dependants. In addition to that, there is the question, in which the Under-Secretary is specially interested, of the relief of the sick poor. Conditions with regard to institutions and hospitals are not the same in Scotland as in many parts of England, because the majority of the beds in Scotland are not in the hands of the public health authorities, but in the hands of the Poor Law authorities, and what we are discussing is not merely who shall handle the problem of the Poor Law, including the able-bodied, but the question of the institutions which give treatment to the sick poor. I repeat that there are four issues involved. First, there is the question as to whether the present areas or the suggested areas are the right ones, and then, whether the unit should be the parish council, as at present, or the new unit, the large burgh on the one hand and the county council on the other. The third issue is where the functions ought to devolve, and the fourth issue is the question of efficiency. I think the right hon. Gentleman will find it difficult to make out a case for the change on other grounds.

Take the case of the administrative areas. Listening to this discussion, it will be gathered that the right hon. Gentleman is proposing in every case a widened area, but he is doing nothing of the kind. There are at least 14 areas in Scotland where the area will be narrower. There is Airdrie, which is a large burgh with a population of 52,000. It is at present a part of the parish council area of New Monkland, which has 40,000 inhabitants. What is true of Airdrie is true of 13 of the 23 large burghs in the whole of Scotland. They are parts of parishes which are larger areas. It is perfectly true that other parts of the parish area will be transferred to larger areas, but it will make new units which are smaller units. If you are going to do away with the 869 parish councils, have you found the right scientific unit when you say it will be the large burgh on the one hand and the county council on the other hand? There are great differences between counties. There are counties which are large in area and others which are small; there are populous counties and sparsely-populated counties; there are wealthy counties, speaking of wealth from the point of view of rateable value, and there are poor counties. One county differs from another as much as one parish differs from another parish.

The right hon. Gentleman says this Bill is not being forced upon an unwilling Scotland. He says the subject has been discussed. Since when? I remember standing in this very spot shortly after my election for Leith and presenting the case for the able-bodied poor, but I did not find any keenness on the Treasury Bench in response to my plea that there should be an alteration in the methods of dealing with them. The whole Poor Law world was in darkness up to last June, and then the right hon. Gentleman saw a sudden light, a very sudden light. All the documents about which he was so eloquent have been in his possession and in the possession of other Ministers for many years, but no action was taken. The case made from these benches is not that he has not consulted Scottish opinion since the introduction of this scheme; he has been compelled to consult Scottish opinion. Since the original proposals were introduced I have spent nearly three months in Scotland, and have been to a number of places, and I say that if this issue were put to the Scottish election the right hon. Gentleman would not get a majority for the abolition of the parish councils as proposed in this Clause. That is the real test.

We all know that the Secretary of State for Scotland has worked very hard attending meetings and receiving deputations since this Bill was introduced, but nevertheless the issue involved and the decision we are taking on this Amendment is a very grave one. I know it is much easier for the right hon. Gentleman to make out his case in a large burgh that in a small county, but I would like to point out what will happen in Edinburgh. The Edinburgh Corporation has 71 members, and it is in favour of taking over these extra duties. The county council of Edinburgh consists of 46 members, but I would like to ask how many of them understand the problems involved in dealing with the poor and the unemployed, and the administration of those other important institutions connected with county council work.

The Government by abolishing the parish councils by this Bill have thrown overboard the experience, wisdom, knowledge, and administrative ability of those who have hitherto been engaged in that work. I was talking to a parish councillor the other day, and he told me that he had been doing parish council business and sub-committee work on five nights of the week. I am quite aware that the Edinburgh Corporation have agreed to take over these additional powers. They are always ready to adopt the Pauline motto, "I magnify my office," but they do not understand the magnitude of the work involved. The unifying of the health services will be nullified by the block grant which is provided for later on in this Measure, and which up to the present has not been explained to the electors of Scotland. The county unit is not a scientific unit, and there ought to be under this Bill adequate representation of those who have given long years of labour to the difficult task of administering local government.

Mr. SCRYMGEOUR

The case which has been put forward by the Secretary of State for Scotland as to the attitude of local authorities is quite correct, but the right hon. Gentleman did not make it quite clear that it was the strength of the opposition of those authorities that brought him to heel and compelled him to face the situation. The issue before us is one of very great magnitude, and I submit that the people of Scotland are entitled to consider all the ins and outs of this great question. With regard to the question of the poor, I think we are entitled to say that in this rearrangement of the parish council system there is not the slightest consideration being given to the necessities of the poor themselves. Apparently, that is a matter of little or no consequence from the Government standpoint. That state of things is undoubtedly due to the fact that an English Minister decided on the de-rating plan, and a rearrangement of local authorities in England and Scotland had to be dragged along with it. I think that is a situation which no Minister sitting on the Treasury Bench can contradict.

Major ELLIOT

I contradict it at once.

Mr. SCRYMGEOUR

If that be so, how is it that such proposals as these were never submitted by the Secretary of State for Scotland until the Minister of Health brought forward his Measure. What is the good of humbug of this kind?

Major ELLIOT

I have been charged with humbug, but let the hon. Member put that question to his colleague the hon. Member for St. Rollox (Mr. Stewart) sitting on the Front Bench opposite.

Mr. SCRYMGEOUR

I am not responsible for what is done by the hon. Member for St. Rollox. I know that the hon. Member has signed a certain document, but that does not affect my point. My case is that this matter of re-organisation of the authorities in Scotland was due to the Government being impelled by an English Minister to proceed on the lines of the English Bill, and I say that is a case of humbug. The case of the parish councils of Scotland involves the treatment of the poor people of Scotland. One of the points made concerning this re-arrangement as advocated by the Government is overlapping. When the Government face that difficulty in regard to unemployment, health insurance, widows' pensions and the unemployed, either from the point of view of the Poor Law or the other point of view, they will find examples of extraordinary overlapping which have not been tackled at all.

Then comes the question of efficiency. The Secretary of State for Scotland was careful to state that he was not going to put up any specific case of inefficiency against the parish councils of Scotland. Under those circumstances, what becomes of the strength of the case which has been put generally by the Government that this Measure is being brought forward largely on account of the inefficiency of the parish councils. The members of the parish councils of Scotland are responsible for those bodies being conducted efficiently, and they have challenged the Government to show where any inefficiency has really taken place in the management of those concerns.

The hon. Member for St. Rollox dealt at considerable length with the working of the parish councils in Scotland, and he took, as an example, one of the largest of those bodies. In the city of Dundee, the parish council have a very arduous duty in carefully considering the individual cases which comes before them, and recently those public duties have grown very considerably. I do not hesitate from our experience of parish councils as well as town councils, to endorse what has been said in regard to the arduous work which they have to undertake. Our town councils are now so engrossed with business in the large cities and towns of Scotland that I do not think there is a single member of any of those bodies who would say that he is able properly to investigate and thoroughly consider every proposition put before them, to say nothing of the additional duties which it is proposed to place upon them. The parish councils are held responsible for dealing with cases of the most dire character, and I can see that, arising out of the scheme which has been devised for England and Scotland, the idea is to relegate the consideration of those powers of dealing with the poor people of Scotland to men who will be co-opted or become members otherwise, more especially in the wider areas to which the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair). referred. There will undoubtedy be there a signal failure in handling the interest of the struggling people of Scotland.

Under the district council arrangements which are now proposed, you are going to have a more complicated situation in Scotland than that which exists at the present time. The situation is such that undoubtedly, with all the assistance that the Secretary of State for Scotland can get from the Under-Secretary while these questions were being considered, he cannot give a clear and explicit statement as to what is going to happen under the district councils. The Government are groping in the dark and treating Scotland as if anything will do. An hon. Member opposite has just told us that the Government do not mean to do anything very drastic, but he did not tell us what advantages Scotland will derive from this Measure, and his remarks as to how things in Scotland are to be improved were quite a blank. I am sure these proposals will constitute a blank for the Government at the next General Election in Scotland. This tearing up root and branch of the Scottish local authorities in reference to the great needs of Scotland is treating this question in a way which is utterly discreditable. I hope every Scottish Member will take some thought for Scotland in regard to this Measure, and I trust they will realise that the Government, in making these proposals, are doing one of the greatest things to damage their prospects at the next General Election.

7.0 p.m.

Brigadier-General CHARTERIS

I hope I am not lacking in national sentiment, but it always seems to me that of all arguments the least relevant to discussion of this sort is that Scotland is being dragged at the heels of England. If Scotland were dragged down, there might be something in the argument, but, if the path be the path of reform and necessary for both countries, then I do not see why anyone's blood should boil at the idea that Scotland is following on the heels of England. That taunt seems to have nothing to do with the Amendment which we are now discussing. Speaking from the Front Bench, the right hon. Member directed the criticism that the Bill, as it now stands, is in an intermediary stage and is not the original whole-hearted proposal to put the whole of the poor in the hands of the county council. I agree that it is in an intermediary stage, but is that necessarily a drawback? As time goes on, as the means of locomotion improve, and as the poor—as we all hope—become fewer and the task of their administration more easy, it may well be that the intermediary stage may be abandoned and the whole of the Poor Law concentrated in the hands of the county authorities. I welcome this intermediary stage now as I did from the first moment I heard of it.

When the proposal to abolish the parish councils was made, it was obvious that it had various advantages. Anyone who had studied history and had read the proposals of the various Committees and Commissions could not fail to be impressed by the fact that the parish councils had outlived their usefulness.

It is equally obvious, however, that there were disadvantages in that proposal. To my mind the greatest disadvantage has not been touched upon. That great disadvantage was that, by abolishing the parish councils, you closed down one of the outlets of local ambition and of public service in small communities. That is a very big and serious thing, and the great advantage in these new district councils which are to be elected in the intermediary stage is that there will, again, be an opportunity for service for people in these communities and that, they will be able to gratify a natural ambition that by service they may become prominent among the people with whom they live. Apart from that, anyone who lives in a county area in Scotland knows that this intermediary stage of district councils will be of the utmost service in the administration of the poor. I admit that there is a great deal to be said for the argument that there is not a clear definition of the duties which are to be entrusted to the district councils. I should personally have liked to see a definite statement that the administration of the poor shall be, not may be, to a great extent delegated to the district councils. But that point is not, to my mind, of great importance. I have sufficient confidence in the common sense of the district councils and the county councils and in my fellow countrymen to believe that, in the scheme for each area, there will be the essence of all that is most required for the administration of the poor. The people who live and work in the areas of the various county authorities are better able than we in this House can be to know the needs of their area and to decide on the best machinery for the administration of the complicated question of the administration of the poor.

To turn to another subject, many hon. Members opposite have said that opinion in Scotland is altogether against the abolition of the parish council. I do not claim—and I am glad of it—that in my investigations regarding this scheme that I have travelled as far or have spoken as many words as the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) on this Bill, but I have seen a considerable part of Scotland while the Bill has been under discussion, and I have no hesitation at all in saying that in the mind of the people of Scotland there is no dislike whatever to the abolition of the parish councils. It may be that the parish councillors objected to seeing themselves shorn of the dignity and respect which has rightly been given to them as parish councillors. That is quite natural, but that regret has largely disappeared, because the same people know that they will have the same opportunity for service in the new district councils. If all the argument that can be advanced from the benches opposite is that Scotland wishes the parish councils to be maintained, then I can honestly say that I would like nothing better than to see that issue and that issue alone submitted to the people of Scotland. I believe that without a shadow of doubt the answer would be that the parish councils are no longer required and can well give place to the more efficient system proposed in this Bill. There is only one other point I would like to make. It is also said from the opposite benches that there is a general feeling that there has been too much authority concentrated into these new county authorities and too little left with the smaller local bodies.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

They want proud Edward's power to weigh us down again.

Brigadier-General CHARTERIS

It may be that there was in certain parts of Scotland that feeling, but as the knowledge grows of the actual powers that are being given to the newly constituted county authorities, the opposition disappears and in certain quarters there is a weight of opinion which holds that they have not been given enough powers. It has always seemed to me the most absurd criticism of this Bill to suggest that it is centralising great power in the hands of the larger authorities. It has always seemed to me that the essential feature of this Bill, looking at it in correct perspective, is that it is taking away power from Whitehall and Edinburgh and giving it to locally constituted bodies in Scotland, thus giving the benefit of what is known as democratic government in a great reform scheme to the local and popularly elected county and district councils.

Mr. HARDIE

I have been disappointed at this Debate, and especially at the speech of the Secretary of State for Scotland. He stood at the Box incapable of saying what were to be the functions of the machine called the district council which has now to be set up. When he was challenged twice quite definitely as to what this machinery he was setting up was to do, he was unable to answer.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dennis Herbert)

I think, if the right hon. Member had attempted to answer, he probably would have been called to Order, because the only Amendment before the Committee now concerns the parish councils and not the district councils.

Mr. WILLIAM GRAHAM

The right hon. Gentleman, in his speech, endeavoured to defend the attitude of the Government by making a reference to the new district councils. It is quite true that that anticipates the later part of the Bill, but it was in amplification of the point which arose immediately upon this Amendment and upon this Clause. With great respect, I submit that my hon. Friend is in order in referring to that point.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I am not sure whether I was in the House at the time. I agree that the body which is to be substituted for the parish council is relevant to the discussion, but hon. Members must confine their discussion as regards district councils to such references to district councils as may be necessary for the discussion and must not go into detail as to the exact composition of the district council. That will ultimately arise on the new Clause constituting the district councils.

Mr. GRAHAM

There is one point I would like to make clear before my hon. Friend resumes. While we are not discussing the constitution of the new district councils, the Secretary of State did refer to duties which are to be transferred to them in order to make the discussion of this Clause an intelligible proposition. I only want to safeguard my hon. Friend's right to refer to these councils and to the duties to be transferred to them. If that be so, I think my hon. Friend is protected.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

If he confines himself to that, then the hon. Member is right.

Mr. HARDIE

I was saying that, when challenged twice as to the functions of these councillors, the Secretary of State for Scotland failed to say what were to be the functions of that body which we shall shortly be asked to vote upon, although it seems to me that, if it is proposed to establish a body, it should be on a basis of having a function of some kind. The history and genesis of what appears to-day as the Scottish part of the de-rating Bill have been discussed and various statements have been made. If the nation had retained all its responsibilities instead of transferring them to localities, we would not have had the rating muddle which has led to the de-rating Bill. What have we done as a nation to cause all this complication of parish councils? Instead of retaining that national charge of unemployment, we have, by strict Employment Exchange rules, sent people to the parish councils and thus brought about the bias of non-industrial areas against the industrial areas. The parish councils in non-industrial areas have no relation with it. Unemployment, instead of being a local charge, should be a national charge. These are the conditions which have made this Bill necessary at all. One can see quite clearly, from the remarks of the Secretary of State to-day, how little the Government understand the Bill and bow little faith they have in it. They have proved that they have no faith in its working by the fact that Sub-section (6) of Clause 10 gives the Secretary of State power to do anything whatsoever in order to make it work. If the district councils do not work, he may, in the words of the Sub-section, make any consequential adaptation or modification of any statutory enactment. That is to say, every Act of Parliament may be put under review because, in order to make the Bill work, it is necessary to give this power to upset them. It is the same as in the case of the formula. The Government do not know whether it is going to work or not, but they are going to try it. That is not legislation. Legislation in the past has always been characterised by a definite statement in words of something that can be conceived and carried out.

We have heard more than once to-day from the other side that this is a nonparty matter. Suppose that we agree. What is the best evidence of the belief of a Member of the House of Commons who says that? The Secretary of State says that this is a non-party Measure. If he believes that, he will be willing to stand the test of his belief. If he believes it, he will take off the Whips. Will he do that? Scottish business in this House is always more serious than English business, but I am glad to see that the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Sir E. Turton) is here. I know the interest that he takes in this matter, and perhaps he will be able to help us in regard to the intricacies of the Scottish part of it. We feel that we are being dragged at the heels of England. If, at the same time as our parish councils are abolished, the Poor Law is not abolished also, it is simply a question of changing the administration. Before the Government were pressed to set up these district councils, it was said that co-option was the best basis, because you could get so many good men and women who could not fight elections, but were qualified to be co-opted to these councils. That has been the kind of constructive basis that has been used. The Secretary of State has been trying to find someone with ideas, but he has only approached his own party, and, therefore, has failed to find them. He has been meeting these deputations from his own party, and has never been able to get outside the atmosphere of the Bill. If he will take off the Whips, I will believe that he believes that this is a non-party Measure. If he does not take off the Whips, I do not believe that, when he says it is a non-party Measure, he really believes that it is a non-party Measure.

Mr. R. W. SMITH

We have heard a great deal to-night about Scotland being dragged at the heels of England, but I must say that I do not admit that that is the case, for it seems to me that we in Scotland have taken a clear line of our own on this matter of de-rating. For one thing, the Secretary of State has been blamed for sweeping away a great many more local bodies than have been swept away in England, which does not look very much like being dragged at the heels of England. I do not think it is for hon. Members opposite to talk about our being dragged at the heels of England, for I would remind them of the attitude of their own Leader with regard to the Russian question. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) suggested that the Secretary of State should take his back-bench Members outside and teach them what was in the Bill. I would recommend the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston to take the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) outside and teach him what is in the Bill, because, if I understood him aright—

Mr. WHEATLEY

If I were forming a class, I would invite some Members on the front Government bench to attend also.

Mr. SMITH

The hon. Member for Camlachie, unless I misunderstood him, said quite distinctly that the new district committees were all to have co-opted Members on them.

Mr. STEPHEN

No; I never said any such thing. I said that the committees of the county councils which would have to do with the administration of the Poor Law would include so many county councillors and so many co-opted Members, as contemplated by the Bill. I hope that the hon. Member himself will study the Bill.

Mr. SMITH

I am quite willing to study the Bill. It is quite possible to misunderstand what an hon. Member said, and, of course, I accept the hon. Member's explanation, but I understood him to say that the co-option referred to the district councils. I am very sorry if I misunderstood him, and I withdraw the statement. I was one of those on this side who were rather distressed that the parish councils were being swept away, and I would like here to thank the Secretary of State for having put something in their place. I am quite aware that hon. Members opposite are also opposed to the sweeping away of the parish councils, and say that more power should be given to these new bodies. In saying that, however, they are showing again that they do not understand what the Bill says. The whole idea of the Bill, as I understand it, is to take away the parish council as a unit of Poor Law authority, and to place that power in the hands of the county council. If the county council is to be the unit of Poor Law authority, it seems to me that it would be most extraordinary to turn round and give special powers to these subsidiary bodies, the new district councils, that are to be put in the place of the parish councils. If one is going to manage one's house, it is natural that the whole power should rest in the hands of the owner. The owner of the house in this case is the county council—the new county authority—and, therefore, it seems to one that it would be ridiculous to suggest the giving of definite powers to a subsidiary body over the head of the owner of the house.

The proposal of the Government to set up these district councils is perfectly reasonable, and meets our desire for some method by which a definite expression of local opinion could be obtained. It has been said that the powers of the district councils should be entirely defined, but I think that that would be an extraordinary mistake Counties, especially in Scotland, differ from one another, and a stereotyped form of district council, with the same powers in every case, would spoil the Bill. The fact that the district councils can be set up by the county authority with different powers delegated to them for different purposes will make it possible to work the Act in Scotland, and the criticisms which have been levelled against the Government from the other side of the Committee have, therefore, no weight at all. The very elasticity of the district councils, and the very fact that they may have different powers, is an excellent thing.

Some hon. Members opposite seem to imagine that it would be very difficult and complicated to delegate the necessary powers in this way, but I do not think that that is so at all. If hon. Members will study the Amendments on the Paper, they will find that it is proposed that the county councils shall be able to delegate to these new bodies all the powers that are necessary for the purposes of the Bill. I thoroughly approve of these proposals. The fear which has been expressed by some hon. Members opposite as to lack of local opinion need not be entertained. These district councils will be able to express the local point of view, and that is all that we want. It is clear, from what the Secretary of State has said in his public speeches, that it will be possible for the county councils to delegate the necessary powers to these new district councils, which will be purely elective bodies, and that will lead to a better form of local government in our counties than we have ever had before.

Mr. SHINWELL

Is it not remarkable that hon. Members on the other side, on the Second Reading of this Bill, argued eloquently in support of the abolition of the parish councils before they were aware of the Secretary of State's intention to replace the parish councils by district councils? Just as they argued eloquently then for the abolition of the parish councils, without knowing of any substitute—

Mr. SMITH

Does the hon. Member say that I voted for the abolition of the parish councils?

Mr. SHINWELL

I am speaking of hon. Members generally. I do not take particular notice of the hon. Member for Central Aberdeen (Mr. R. W. Smith), but I take notice of the general opinion expressed by Members on the other side. I was pointing out that hon. Members, many of whom have been arguing to-day for the substitute provided by the Secretary of State, namely, the district council, are using that argument merely because of the opposition that has been presented in Scotland to the Bill itself; it is only a cloak to hide their real opinion on this matter. I have very little hope that the right hon. Gentleman will respond to the appeal that has been made to him by Members on this side to make this a non-party issue and withdraw the Whips. Perhaps that is too much to ask. But the right hon. Gentleman, if he refuses to make this a non-party issue, must at least face the real, fundamental issue involved, which, as I see it and as my friends see it, is not so much the removal of the old machinery and the creation of new machinery for the purpose of administering the Poor Law, as the provision of humane treatment for those who are at present dependent upon the Poor Law in Scotland.

Something has been said in the course of the Debate about the magnitude of the problem. We are in a much worse position than is England in respect of pauperism. One out of every 17 persons is in receipt of Poor Law relief in one form of another. There are 250,000 out of a population of something like 4,000,000. These are astonishing figures, and they reveal how colossal the poverty problem is on the other side of the Tweed. In England, it is rather better, for only one out of 42 is in receipt of pauper relief. It is idle for the right hon. Gentleman and his friends to pretend that by the creation of new machinery, by the substitution of one device for another, by the displacement of parish councils and their substitution by district councils or county councils for that matter, more considerate treatment is to be provided for those who are impoverished. That is, after all, the fundamental issue. Does the right hon. Gentleman say that as the result of the abolition of the parish councils the unfortunate unemployed, or the sick or infirm, will receive more humane treatment? If he can reply in the affirmative, clearly he must be in a position to tell the Committee by what means this more considerate treatment is to be provided. There will be no change in respect of the treatment for those unfortunately situated as the result of the right hon. Gentleman's proposal.

I should like to ask him what has caused this change in his attitude in respect to parish and district councils. When he spoke on the Second Reading he pleaded for the abolition of the parish councils. He saw no good in the parish council. At that time he had not a single thought, as far as we could understand him, about the creation of a new body. He never talked then of district councils. It was sufficient for his purpose that the parish councils were to be abolished and their functions exclusively transferred to the county councils. Now what has happened? As a result of the opposition and the deep-seated resentment and hostility that have been expressed, he has been compelled to provide something in place of the parish council, but as near to the parish council as it is possible for him to get. There has been opposition on the other side. We had opposition on the Second Reading. We are glad to know the right hon. Gentleman is at least responsive in some degree to Scottish opinion in respect of this matter. The question of new machinery is of little consequence to us. What does it matter whether it is a parish or a district council that is responsible for Poor Law administration if those who are poor are not to get more out of these bodies? Will the transfer of the parish councils function to the district council lead to less poverty? That is the only issue, and we are unconcerned about these trifling, pettifogging expedients which the right hon. Gentleman and his friends regard as serious legislation.

The right hon. Gentleman disclaimed the allegation that this proposal was due to dictation from his colleagues in the Cabinet. If it had not been for the derating proposals no question would have arisen at this time of a change in local government. For more than 30 years the parish councils have been operating in their present form, and, correspondingly, there has been a serious demand for modification and amendment of the powers of parish councils and the machinery in relation to Poor Law administration, yet the right hon. Gentleman, although he has been Secretary of State for more than four years, has never indicated by voice or gesture, or in any other way, what the intentions were in regard to this matter. We are not pledged to the parish council. We are not pledged to small units. If there is to be a change—and we desire it as much as hon. Members opposite—let it be a change for the better and not for the worse, and let it be a change which will lead in the end to more considerate and humane treatment of the poor.

We had a speech to-day from the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Stirling and Clackmannan (Captain Fanshawe). He, like many of his friends, appeared to know less about the implications of the Measure than we do. It is alleged that we do not understand the Bill. That allegation can he more properly made about the hon. and gallant Gentleman and those associated with him. For example, he told us that the expenses of the parish councils will be modified in consequence of this proposal.

Captain FANSHAWE

I did not say the expenses of the parish councils. The parish councils are going to disappear. How could anyone claim that their expenses are about to increase or decrease when they are going to disappear? I only drew attention to the fact that at present the parish councils' expenses vary. I was saying that to reinforce my argument that parish councils were not the most convenient bodies for the administration of local government. It was a perfectly fair way of putting the case, and I do not think the hon. Member should misrepresent me.

Mr. SHINWELL

Nothing that the hon. and gallant Gentleman has said causes me to modify my opinion in the least. He used, as an argument for the abolition of parish councils, that their expenditure was excessive because there were a great many scattered throughout Scotland, and that by their abolition and their substitution by district or county councils the expenditure would be correspondingly reduced. There is nothing in the Bill or in the White Paper in support of that contention. On the other hand, we can say the expenditure would be increased, because, clearly, if the county councils, overburdened as they are with functions, have more functions transferred to them, there will be an increase in their expenditure, and if you broadcast that over the whole of Scotland who is to say that expenditure on Poor Law administration will be reduced? It is purely hypothetical, as, indeed, are many of the proposals in the Bill.

I come to what, after all, is the major issue arising out of the right hon. Gentleman's new proposal. It is in respect of the constitution and functions of the district council. What will follow from the passing of the Amendment? To begin with, there is no compulsion, so far as the administration of the Poor Law is concerned, placed upon the new district councils. They are not to undertake, so far as we can see from the White Paper or the Amendment—they are synonymous in this respect—the functions of the Poor Law. But something else arises. The right hon. Gentleman said it should be left to the discretion of the county councils, in the preparation and submission of schemes, whether district councils should undertake these functions or not. He spoke of elasticity. I presume he meant by that that some district councils would be more competent to undertake the functions of Poor Law administration than others. It follows that one district council, because of the submission of an appropriate scheme, will be responsible for Poor Law administration and a contiguous district council will not. We may find, for example, in the middle belt of Scotland all the district councils responsible for Poor Law administration, and in Perth, in Kinross, in Clackmannanshire, in Stirlingshire, the district councils will have nothing whatever to do with it. That may follow from the acceptance of this scheme. What did the right hon. Gentleman mean by elasticity, except that there is contraction in one place and expansion in another, that there are functions undertaken by one district council and a refusal to accept functions in another?

What does he mean by "discretion"? One county council will be entitled to do this, another will be empowered to do that, and another will do nothing at all. And all depends upon the schemes that are to be submitted to the competent authority in this case, and that is the right hon. Gentleman himself. I do not doubt that the right hon. Gentleman is a competent authority: I would not take from him what authority he possesses; but I do say that in the administration of the Poor Law in Scotland surely he is not entitled to take to himself such wide powers, from which there will flow such an elasticity and discretion as will lead to contradiction and anomalies right throughout the Poor Law administration in Scotland. That is what we are anxious to avoid. If he said "I will see to it that these new district councils everywhere throughout Scotland undertake Poor Law administration," then we should understand him. There would be no ambiguity about it, there would be no evasion, it would be a clear, straight, up-and-down proposition, that everybody can understand, and that could be applied quite easily in Scotland. But, as things stand, we do not know what is going to happen in respect of Poor Law administration. It is all very well for hon. Members opposite. I do not know that they are very much concerned as to what is going to happen to the poor in Scotland. At all events, so far as I have seen, they have never indicated any special concern for the poverty-stricken in Scotland. But we who are concerned, not only about the machinery, but about the condition, of the poor in Scotland want to see something that is quite definite and specific, something that can be applied, and something that at least those who are at the present time responsible for Poor Law administration in Scotland can clearly understand. I should like the right hon. Gentleman therefore, to tell the Committee what he proposes in respect of these variations and these functions.

In Scotland, there is a gradual pauperisation of the people. The people of Scotland have prided themselves upon one characteristic, that of independence, and quite rightly; they have been proud of it. But what has been happening in recent years? There has been a gradual demoralisation and pauperisation of the people of Scotland. The figures are startling; they are outstanding and they are significant. How are these conditions to be removed? Remove your parish councils, but that does not remove the conditions. Set up your district councils; there is no guarantee that the conditions will be changed. Put the power into the hands of the county council; what advantage is that to those who are now suffering? I want the right hon. Gentleman to tell the Committee what he proposes in place, not merely of the existing machinery for Poor Law administration in Scotland, but in place of the objectionable and appalling conditions under which so many of the men, women and children in Scotland are now living. That is the demand that we make on him. We ask for a change in local government administration in Scotland. We should like to see the parish councils abolished, but we want in place of the parish councils, machinery of a democratic character, with local contact, and machinery that is best calculated to lead to considerate treatment for those who are now unfortunately situated.

Lieut.-Colonel MOORE

I have listened, I confess, with growing indignation to the speeches which have emanated from the two Oppositions in the Committee to-day, culminating in the rather wild and irresponsible speech from the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. We had the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) making a vicious attack on bureaucracy—somewhat to my astonishment, because I gather from his platform speeches that bureaucracy is the be-all-and-end-all of his nationalisation panacea. Then I listened to the hon. and gallant Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair) and the hon. and gallant Member for Montrose (Sir R. Hutchison) advocating a policy which surely would cause that great leader of Liberalism, Mr. Gladstone, to turn in his grave. Where is the progress of the Liberal party gone? Where is the beneficial social policy which has been the very driving force of the party for the last hundred years? We are invited by these two members of the Liberal party to make every effort to maintain the status quo. I am sorry to have received that impression, but, after carefully listening to both those eloquent speeches, that is what I understood. Had those speeches come from this side of the Committee I might have appreciated them, because we are told the Conservative party is a reactionary party; but that we should be asked by two supporters of progressive Liberalism, with that party's vision and faith in the future, to stay as we are, to make no move forward, not to march with the times, is a cause to me of sincere astonishment. I would ask those two hon. Gentlemen to remember that this change in the parish council system is merely one of many changes which are necessary to implement this great Measure which is going to bring progress and help to the country as a whole.

Sir R. HUTCHISON

May I ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman whether he thinks this new system is going to improve the administration of the Poor Law, either making it more efficient or more economical?

Lieut.-Colonel MOORE

Yes, I do. This is not the disappearance of the parish council it is the disappearance of the organisation known as the parish council, but the parish councillors, those who have handled these delicate problems of Poor Law relief, will be merged into the new authority.

Mr. WESTWOOD rose—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

There must not be two hon. Members on their feet at once. I cannot allow that.

Mr. WESTWOOD

As the hon. Member gave way to me, may I ask him where in the Bill the parish council, as it exists to-day, will be merged into the new administration of the Poor Law?

Lieut.-Colonel MOORE

It is not in the Bill, but it is a perfectly obvious deduction from what we know of the common sense of the people of Scotland. In reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Montrose (Sir R. Hutchison), I do congratulate the Secretary of State for Scotland in putting forth this change in the Bill. I was amused at the hon. Member who has just sat down, who so strongly resented this change because these two opposing parties in this House appear to me to be so bitterly jealous of this great constructive reform, which, as usual, is to be put on the Statute Book by a Conservative Government—and will be put there, in spite of the opposition they threaten. They are so guided by purely partisan politics that they have thrown aside their "Yellow Books" and all the documents signed by the hon. Member for the St. Rollox Division (Mr. Stewart) advocating larger areas, and so on, and they have joined together and made one common attack against the Government on this Measure. That is the only deduction I can make—it is a very sorry one to have to make—from the attitude of hon. Gentlemen opposite.

May I refer to the question of "may" and "shall"? I feel that the county council may not be sufficiently sure of its own position and its own powers, so that it may possibly not wish to take that forward step at once, and if this change is forced on the newly constituted county councils, we may lose the human touch that is at present brought to bear on the administration of the Poor Law, to the great advantage of all the poor. However, that is not before the Committee. I do think that possibly it might be arranged that the district councils which are proposed should be built on the structure of the old parish councils, and that ultimately these new district councils should prove the authority to administer and be responsible for all health services and for charities like the Miners' Fund. The idea has long been in my mind, and I am sure the Secretary of State for Scotland will probably come to it when he has got this Bill through. An hon. Member on this side earlier in the afternoon referred to the fact that the Opposition did not seem to have an understanding of this Bill. I do not think he actually meant that, but probably that the Opposition had not an appreciation of this Bill.

Mr. WRIGHT

With regard to the speech of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Ayr Burghs (Lieut.-Colonel Moore), I am quite sure that my hon. Friends on these benches and below the Gangway would very much like to believe that the Government would introduce, in this Bill or in any other Bill, some great constructive proposals. The hon. and gallant Gentleman has just claimed that this Bill will contribute to the progress of Scotland, but I do not think that is a view which will carry weight with the people of Scotland. I fail to see any single proposal in it which will bring progress to the country as a whole. Indeed, the whole action of this Government since they came into office has been in the opposite direction. The hon. and gallant Gentleman has just said that this Bill will be put on to the Statute Book by a Conservative Government, like many previous Bills. It is perfectly obvious that it will, but only by the help of English Members, and in opposition to the attitude and feeling of Scotland towards it. The Secretary of State for Scotland has claimed that there has been a great demand, extending over a number of years, for this Bill. May I point out that there is no reference to these proposals in the programme of the Conservative party at the last election?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I think I must ask the hon. Member to remember that we are not now on the Second Beading.

8.0 p.m.

Mr. WRIGHT

Yes, but it has also to be remembered that, while the Secretary for Scotland is claiming that there is a great demand for this Bill in Scotland, he has ignored the evidence of the large number of meetings recently held in Scotland against this Bill, in which there took part many members of all political parties, and that no Measure has stirred public opinion in Scotland to the same extent, at any rate during the last 50 years. My friends and I claim that if this Bill becomes the law of the land it will be entirely due to the assistance of English Members, and we regard that as an injustice. I am not greatly concerned as to whether there should be reorganisation of parish councils, district councils, or parish councils, but I do feel most strongly in regard to a gradual worsening of the conditions of the people of Scotland, and in regard to proposals which may improve those conditions. In one part of my Division the rates are 23s. in the £. There is an enormous amount of poverty over all the great industrial areas in Scotland, and conditions are rapidly becoming worse. I cannot for the life of me see in what way this Bill is going to improve those conditions.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I must ask the hon. Gentleman to confine himself more closely to the Amendment.

Mr. WRIGHT

The thing which is closest to my heart is the semi-starvation which is now going on. It may suit the Government to ignore that part of the question, but in my view it is the supreme question at the moment. The position of the people of Scotland is gradually becoming worse, and in my judgment this Bill will not touch the fringe of the question.

Mr. WESTWOOD

I will not detain the Committee more than a few minutes, because I want to hear a discussion that is coming later with regard to the rights of the smaller burghs, but I want to give reasons why I am supporting the Amendment which is now before the Committee. I submit that there is room for some improvement in connection with administration and the enlargement of areas, but I am supporting the Amendment because I am satisfied that it will be absolutely impossible for the new body to take over the work of administration in connection with the Poor Law and effectively to carry through that work. It is quite true, as was said by the hon. Member for Stirling and Clackmannan (Captain Fanshawe), that there has been a tremendous increase in the work of parish councils during the last 20 years, but that is more than doubly true so far as the work of the county councils' is concerned, and so far as the larger burghs are concerned to whom this particular work is now to be handed over. I submit that if the work is to receive proper attention it will be absolutely impossible for these newly-constituted bodies to overtake the work which they are doing at present, and also to undertake the new work which is to be handed over to them. If there is one thing more than another that the independently-minded Scot resents, it is that any relief that he gets through the public or in any shape or form should be tainted with pauperism. If the proposals in this Bill for the abolition of the parish councils would help us to wipe out the Poor Law and to wipe out that taint of pauperism, then no one would be more willing to support those proposals than myself. But, instead of reducing the taint of pauperism to its minimum, the Government are going to carry that taint of pauperism into these administrative bodies to whom they are going to give this work of dealing with the Poor Law. It is because of that that I must certainly vote against the proposals of the Government as they stand at present.

We have been asked for constructive proposals. One of the arguments put forward in favour of the Bill was the enlargement of the areas of administration, but in 18 authorities you are going to lessen the area of administration. I have in mind two areas in the county of Fife; they are large burghs, and they have the largest number of employed in them, and their greatest problem is to deal with unemployment and poor law relief in their areas. But the Government propose to cut off the area of these burghs, and to lessen the area of administration so far as Kirkcaldy and Dunfermline Burghs are concerned. The Government are going to impose a still greater charge upon the ratepayers in those two large burghs. If the Government want some constructive proposals, would it be too much to ask them that, instead of wiping out the parish councils, they should enlarge the areas of Poor Law administration, and that in these enlarged areas there should be bodies for the purpose of specially dealing with Poor Law administration until such time as this matter can be gone into, possibly by a Commission, and cleared up, and put on a proper basis. In this way, the Government would wipe out the obnoxious Poor Law system and give us a proper system of administration. I must oppose the proposals of the Government as submitted for our consideration at present. The choice is that of merely retaining the pariah councils as they are or of accepting the proposals of the Gov-

ernment. Bad as the administration of the parish councils may be, to my mind it is a long way better than would be possible if the Poor Law were administered by the new authorities. For that reason I support the Amendment.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'and,' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 193; Noes, 94.

Division No. 156.]	AYES.	[8.9 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Ford, Sir P. J.	Margesson, Captain D.
Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles	Forestier-Walker, Sir L.	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Albery, Irving James	Fraser, Captain Ian	Meller, R. J.
Alexander, Sir wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)	Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.	Merriman, Sir F. Boyd
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman	Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony	Meyer, Sir Frank
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Galbraith, J. F. W.	Mitchell, S (Lanark, Lanark)
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.	Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Atkinson, C.	Goff, Sir Park	Mcore, Lieut. Colonel T. R. C. (Ayr)
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Gower, Sir Robert	Moore, Sir Newton J.
Balniel, Lord	Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)	Nelson, Sir Frank
Barclav-Harvey, C. M.	Greene, W. p. Crawford	Neville, Sir Reginald J.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w, E)	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter).
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.	Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)	Nuttall, Ellis
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.	Oakley, T.
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Hacking, Douglas H.	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Berry, Sir George	Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)	O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Betterton, Henry B.	Hamilton, Sir George	Penny, Frederick George
Birchall, Major J. Dearman	Hammersley, S. S.	Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Blundell, F. N.	Hanbury, C.	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Harland, A.	Pilcher, G.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.	Harrison, G. J. C.	Power, Sir John Cecil
Brassey, Sir Leonard	Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Ramsden, E.
Briggs, J. Harold	Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)	Rawson, Sir Cooper
Brittain, Sir Harry	Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian	Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)
Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.	Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Henn, Sir Sydney H.	Remer, J. R
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd, Hexham)	Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)	Hills, Major John Waller	Rice, Sir Frederick
Buchan, John	Hilton, Cecil	Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ta'y)
Buckingham, Sir H.	Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.	Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Hohier, Sir Gerald Fitzroy	Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Burman, J. B	Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Ropner, Major L.
Burton, Colonel H. W.	Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)	Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Caine, Gordon Hall	Hopkins, J. W. W.	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Cassels, J. D.	Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)	Sandeman, N. Stewart
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)	Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)	Sandon Lord
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton	Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Chapman, Sir S.	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N).	Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)	Shepperson, E. W.
Clarry, Reginald George	Hume, Sir G. H.	Skelton, A. N.
Clayton, G. C.	Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer	Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Cobb, Sir Cyril	Hurd, Percy A.	Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Hurst, Gerald B.	Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George	James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert	Sprot, Sir Alexander
Cohen, Major J. Brunel	Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)	Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
Conway, Sir W. Martin	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Stanley, Hon O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Cooper, A. Duff	Kindersley, Major G M.	Streatfeild, Captain S. R.
Courtauld, Major J. S.	King, Commodore Henry Douglas	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)	Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)	Knox, Sir Alfred	Tinne, J. A.
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)	Lamb, J. Q.	Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Dalkeith, Earl of	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)	Loder, J. de V.	Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)	Long, Major Eric	Vaughan-Morgan, Col K. P.
Dawson, Sir Philip	Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere	Wallace, Captain D. E.
Eden, Captain Anthony	Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Edmondson, Major A. J.	Lumley, L. R.	Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Elliot, Major Walter E.	MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Ellis, R. G.	Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)	Watts, Sir Thomas
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith	McLean, Major A.	Wayland, Sir William A.
Everard, W. Lindsay	MacRobert, Alexander M.	Wells, S. R.
Fanshawe, Captain G. D.	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple-
Fielden, E. B.	Malone, Major P. B.	Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Womersley, W. J.	Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.	Mr. F. C. Thomson and Sir Victor
		Warrender.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	Ritson, J.
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)	Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Scrymgeour, E.
Barnes, A.	Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)	Scurr, John
Barr, J.	Hardie, George D.	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Batey, Joseph	Hayday, Arthur	Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Bellamy, A.	Hayes, John Henry	Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Benn, Wedgwood	Henderson, T. (Glasgow)	Shinwell, E.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.	Hirst, G. H.	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Briant, Frank	Hollins, A.	Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Broad, F. A.	Hore-Bellsha, Leslie	Smillie, Robert
Bromfield, William	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Bromley, J.	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Charieton, H. C.	Kelly, W. T.	Stephen, Campbell
Cluse, W. S.	Kennedy, T.	Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.	Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.	Sutton, J. E.
Cove, W. G.	Kirkwood, D	Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)	Lansbury, George	Tomlinson, R. p.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)	Lawrence, Susan	Townend, A. E.
Duncan, C.	Lawson, John James	Watson, W. M. (Duntermline)
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)	Lowth, T.	Wellock, wilfred
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)	MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)	Welsh, J. C.
Forrest, W.	Mackinder, W.	Westwood, J.
Gardner, J. P.	MacLaren, Andrey	Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.	Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)	Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)	MacNeill-Weir, L.	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)	Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Greenall, T.	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)	Windsor, Walter
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Mosley, Sir Oswald	Wright, W.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Oliver, George Harold	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Griffith, F. Kingsley	Palin, John Henry
Groves, T.	Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Grundy, T. W.	Potts, John S.	Sir Robert Hutchison and Mr. Ernest
		Brown.

Sir J. GILMOUR

I beg to move, in page 1, line 10, to leave out the word "and" and to insert instead thereof the words (except the functions by this Section transferred to a district council) and all the functions. The Committee will observe that this Amendment carries out the undertaking which I gave on the previous occasion, to consider the setting up of district councils, and it should be read with the subsequent Amendment on page 2, line 15, which sets out in detail the various duties which will fall to these district councils. The election of the district council will be conducted in like manner as parish council elections have been conducted in the past, and at the same time as county council elections, except on the first occasion. The subsequent Amendment specifies the functions. Perhaps it might be for the convenience of the Committee that I should deal with the two Amendments as forming parts of one subject.

The functions to be transferred are: (a) The functions under Part IV of the Local Government Act, 1894; that part relates solely to the landward parishes and the landward part of mixed parishes, and confers powers to provide buildings for parish meetings; to provide recreation grounds; to look after the rights of ways, and to accept gifts of property. (b) The functions under Part V of the Act of 1894; these relate to parish trusts, but the district councils are not to be concerned with parish trusts which relate to the poor or to churchyards or burial grounds, as such matters are transferred to the county council, (c) The functions unde the Public Libraries (Scotland) Acts, 1887–1920. (d) The functions under the Allotments Acts. (e) The functions under Section 79 of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903, which at present empowers the parish council to object to the registration of a club. And (f), the functions under Section 49 of the Post Office Act, 1908, under which the parish councils may give guarantees to the Post Office in regard to the establishment of post or telegraph offices or the provision of facilities in connection therewith. The district council may also make representations in any case where the parish council might have done so, such as under Section 14 (2) of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1925, relating to the removal of obstructive buildings. The expenses of the parish councils under paragraphs (a), (b), (d) and (f) are at present payable out of a special parish rate levied under Part IV of the Act of 1894, which rate is limited at present to 6d. per pound.

Mr. T. HENDERSON

Can the right hon. Gentleman say from what document he is reading?

Sir J. GILMOUR

I am trying to explain the provisions which are contained in the Amendment, which sets out the functions which will be transferred to these councils.

Mr. HENDERSON

Are we not entitled to have that document placed on the Table, in order that it may be discussed?

The CHAIRMAN

I would point out that this Amendment precedes another Amendment and must be read with the other Amendment. The Amendment now before the Committee proposes, in page 1, line 10, to leave out the word "and" and to insert instead thereof the words (except the functions by this Section transferred to a district council) and all the functions. and the functions to be transferred to the district council are shown in the Amendment on the following page of the Amendment Paper. Therefore, it is in order for the right hon. Gentleman to refer to both Amendments.

Sir J. GILMOUR

I am endeavouring to explain what is meant by the different heads in the second Amendment—(a), (b), (c), (d), (e) and (f).

Mr. SHINWELL

On a further point of Order. If we accept this Amendment, shall we not then be in the position of being unable to discuss the proposal which the right hon. Gentleman wishes to make subsequently in respect to the substitution of the district council for the parish council? Will it not be unnecessary to discuss that, if we accept this Amendment? Would not the major discussion on the district councils arise at this point?

The CHAIRMAN

I think it could. On the other hand, it may be more convenient if the Committee pass this Amendment, to reserve perfect freedom to discuss the other Amendment in detail. They would be in order.

Mr. SHINWELL

If the Committee on the proposition to set up district councils, decide not to accept that proposal, what becomes of this Amendment?

The CHAIRMAN

If this Amendment be rejected, the other part of it could not be moved, but if this Amendment be accepted, then the other Amendment can be discussed. It is a matter of general convenience as to the choice of Amendment on which the major discussion should take place. It could take place on this Amendment or it could take place on the more detailed Amendment on the Order Paper. I should think that it would perhaps be more convenient to have a very short discussion on this Amendment and to have a detailed discussion on the later Amendment, but, as a matter of order, I cannot rule the discussion out now.

The LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. William Watson)

May I suggest that the discussion should take place now; otherwise, if this Amendment were passed and the subsequent one rejected, the Debate on this Amendment would be futile. In regard to what was said by the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Shinwell), the parish councils are out of the picture now, as the result of the last decision. I suggest that the present Amendment is the proper occasion to discuss the district council. It may be that on the later Amendment some of the detailed powers may be considered inadequate, or some may be dropped out, but, on the question of the total amount of powers to be transferred, I suggest that this is the proper place to discuss them.

The CHAIRMAN

I take it that on this Amendment arises the question as to whether the powers taken away from the parish council should go to the county or the district council. What exactly those powers should be can be discussed on the later Amendment. Of course, if the Committee wish to discuss the whole of them on this Amendment, I do not think that I can rule it out of order. It it purely a matter of convenience.

Sir J. GILMOUR

Of course, I am entirely in the hands of the Committee. I was trying to explain the details of the functions that would be transferred in order that the Committee might have a full appreciation of what the Amendment means. The rate which up to the present has been limited to 6d. in the £, it is proposed to make into a district council rate, and to provide that all the expenses of the district council, including those under the Public Libraries Act, are to be charges against that rate, and that the limit of 6d. which now exists shall be raised to 1s. Of course, any expenses incurred by the district council in acting for the central body will be a different matter. The district council will not be a rating authority, but will obtain money on requisition, as indeed the parish councils do now. But in view of the limit of 1s. which has been placed upon the rate, it has not been considered necessary to require the approval of the district council budget by the county council.

I have outlined what we propose with regard to the transfer of these functions. As already indicated, the county council delegate functions to the district council as regards their area, either by their administrative scheme under Clause 14, or by separate arrangement, and in this way it will be possible for the county council to delegate to district councils their functions with regard to outdoor poor relief. It will, however, be necessary to insert proper safeguards and to see that the cost of Poor Law relief is a charge spread over the whole county and not solely over the district. As a result of the above provisions, it has been decided that county councils should not have the power to appoint to the committee persons who are not members of the county council. This will not apply as regards education, for in that case, under Clause 12, the county council must call on a number of outsiders, nor does it affect existing provisions relating to school management itself under the Education (Scotland) Act of 1918. It will also be unnecessary to continue the provisions under Clause 14 (3) of the Bill providing for a county being divided up in accordance with the administrative scheme into local administration areas with local committees. That Sub-section will be modified so that the contemplated delegation of functions to these district councils—

Mr. MACLEAN

On a point of Order. The Secretary of State is reading something which means a sweeping Amendment of the Bill. Would it not be just as well for him to provide the members of the Committee with a copy of what he it reading, so that we can understand the vital changes that he is proposing to make in the constitution of the district councils and of the county councils?

Mr. WESTWOOD

Further to that point of Order. Is it in order to have these sweeping changes in the Bill submitted at the Committee stage when they have never received a Second Reading in this House?

The CHAIRMAN

I think they are within the title of the Bill, but I feel a certain difficulty about the point raised by the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. Maclean), because I think that now the Secretary of State is referring, not only to later Amendments on this Clause, but to later Clauses altogether. The proposal before the Committee is to set up district councils under this Clause, and to refer certain functions to them. I am inclined to think that the discussion on this Clause ought to be confined to the functions that are to be transferred by the Clause. Otherwise, we shall be roaming over the Bill in a manner that will make concentrated discussion difficult.

Mr. WESTWOOD

I understand you give the ruling that the Amendments now being selected come within the title of the Bill. I find that the title of the Bill is: A Bill to transfer to county councils and to the town councils of certain burghs in Scotland functions of existing local authorities. There is no single reference to transferring the powers to district councils.

The CHAIRMAN

The title is also: To amend the law relating to local government.

Mr. HARDIE

Those of us who have been students of this Bill know that it is impossible to proceed without taking the steps that the Secretary of State is taking now. He must jump from one Clause to another to explain what is proposed.

The LORD ADVOCATE

All that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is doing is to explain the setting in which the district councils will be. He is not discussing the merits of what it is proposed to do. Those will be dealt with when the specific Amendments arise. But I think it is for the convenience of the Committee that Members should have a fairly comprehensive view of the position in which the district committee is to be, not for the purpose of discussing now all the points that will arise on the various Amendments that follow, but in order that the picture may be complete.

Mr. STEPHEN

Surely, on that point, the Lord Advocate has simply strengthened what was said by the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. Maclean). The reading of this document by the Secretary of State is necessary, he says, in order that we may have this picture. But we do not get a picture, and the Secretary of State in reading the document hurriedly in that way does not give us a picture. I do not think any Member of the Committee is sufficiently clever to form a picture from this hurried reading.

The LORD ADVOCATE

The complete formation and powers and position of the district councils will be settled by a variety of Amendments which are strewn all over the Amendment paper. That cannot be helped. What my right hon. Friend was doing was collecting the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle and trying to put them together. Everyone knows that you get a perfect picture with a jigsaw puzzle.

Mr. E. BROWN

Surely all that we are entitled to discuss is what appertains to the functions of this new body?

The CHAIRMAN

If I have to rule on this point, I think I must rule that only matters referred to in this Clause are in order, but it is one of those border-line cases in which, if the Committee wish to have an exposition from the Secretary of State as to the position of the district councils generally, I could not on my own initiative refuse to allow it; but on a strict point of Order the discussion must be confirmed to matters introduced in this Clause.

Mr. WHEATLEY

It is quite clear that the Government are in a confused state of mind regarding both the contents of the Bill and the order and construction of the Bill—

The CHAIRMAN

Is the right hon. Gentleman raising a point of Order?

Mr. WHEATLEY

I am going to move that you, Sir, report Progress and ask leave to sit again.

The CHAIRMAN

It is not possible under the Resolution of the House, nor is it possible while the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State is in possession. If the right hon. Gentleman has any further point of Order, I shall consider it.

Mr. WHEATLEY

Is there no way of protecting the Committee in the deplorable situation into which it has been landed by the Government?

Mr. KIRKWOOD

You admitted yourself, Sir, that it was pathetic to look at them.

Sir J. GILMOUR

There is nothing either deplorable or outrageous in endeavouring to place before the Committee a full outline of the machinery which, on the Second Reading, I undertook to bring within this Measure. Of course, if hon. Gentlemen do not wish for an explanation—

Mr. MACLEAN

I do not wish to take up the time of the Committee unnecessarily, but if such a promise was made on the Second Reading why were these details not presented in the form of a White Paper so that we could understand this jig-saw puzzle?

The CHAIRMAN

That is not a point of Order.

Sir J. GILMOUR

As I have already explained, I gave a definite undertaking on the Second Reading that we would consider a suggestion for the setting up of district councils to give that local touch which it was thought would be abolished with the disappearance of the parish councils. As soon as possible, I placed on the Order Paper various Amendments to deal with that problem. There are two Amendments on this Clause. There is one on the first part of the Clause which deals specifically with certain functions to be transferred to these new bodies. There is an Amendment on a subsequent part of the Clause, setting out in detail, under various headings, all the duties which would be transferred to these bodies. These are, in the main, the same duties as those which the parish councils perform to-day. There are certain exceptions. The main exception is the Poor Law, but, in regard to some aspects of outdoor relief, the central body may, under its scheme, delegate some parts of the work to the district council. That, as shortly as I can put it, is the scheme. The districts are to be freshly allocated, with the knowledge and experience of the central authorities in the county. They will define areas which are, in their view, best suited for dealing with these problems. These schemes will be open to discussion by those interested, and will only be approved after objections have been heard. I suggest that these proposals go a long way towards meeting what I believe was the feeling in many parts of Scotland that there should be local bodies to deal with many of these problems. These bodies will be in a position to give views and advice to the central authority on a great number of matters, and they are to have additional powers in the matter of expenditure. The power of expenditure is raised from 6d. in the £ to 1s. in the £

Mr. WHEATLEY

The Secretary of State has impressed upon us that we are here making a serious departure from the original intention of the Bill. We are setting up a new authority. Surely, in the whole history of legislation, there was never an authority of any importance set up under the conditions here proposed. We are not to have any explanation of the powers and functions of the authority. We have here a splendid illustration of the statement which appears in another part of the Bill, to the effect that the Secretary of State is to be empowered to do whatsoever he thinks fit. The Government are not laying down how these district bodies are to be constituted. They are simply laying it down that the county council, in conjunction with the Secretary of State, will appoint the district council. Not only will the House of Commons be excluded from authority in the matter of the appointment, but this Committee is not even to know what are the powers of the new body. I put this question to the Lord Advocate. Will it be legal for those bodies to grant relief and to spend money that has been raised by rating? Clearly, if they are to deal with the Poor Law in the manner indicated, they would require power to spend money. I think the original suggestion which I made, that the Government should take a little more time to consider this Bill, gains considerable support from the attitude of the representatives of the Government just now.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

A house divided against itself cannot stand.

Mr. WHEATLEY

I respectfully submit that the right hon. Gentleman has not given us sufficient information as to the functions of the new bodies. He has explained a great many things that they are not to do, but has not told us much of what they are to do. They are apparently excluded from dealing with a number of things and certain of these things refer to the treatment of the poor and the functions now performed by the parish councils; but in no place is it laid down that they are to deal with the Poor Law. We are led to believe at the moment that that subject is to be delegated to the Secretary of State for Scotland and the county council. I do not want to carry this Debate to any length, because I believe there is a general desire that we should take a Division on these Amendments and pass to a more minute discussion of them, but I submit that this is the most slipshod manner in which an important Measure was ever presented to the House of Commons.

Mr. SHINWELL

When arrangements were made in respect of the Guillotine, certain Clauses were allotted for the time of the Committee, but at that time we did not expect that this fundamental change in the Bill was to be proposed. Now that it has come, it cuts right across the arrangements in respect of the Guillotine, and we may have a prolonged or a short discussion on this Amendment, but it affects many other Clauses and Amendments, and, in fact, we do not know where we stand. In the circumstances, I think the Government might properly have withdrawn this Amendment at this time, and come forward at a later stage with the more substantial proposal, which is the constitution of the district councils, and then impose on that proposition all the implications that naturally arise.

What the Government are doing is to put the cart before the horse. They say that some of the functions that hitherto belonged to the parish councils should be transferred to the district councils, but they are careful to remind us, when necessary, that the district councils so far have not been agreed upon. If the Government came and said they proposed to transfer to the county councils functions which hitherto belonged to the parish councils, we should understand it, because we know that the county councils exist, but here we are proposing to transfer powers, from a body that does exist—though it is true that we have, agreed to the abolition of the parish councils—to bodies that have no existence at all and that cannot have any existence until schemes have been submitted and accepted. That is really a point of Order, and it is either for you, Mr. Chairman, to dispose of it or for the Government to reconsider their position, but if we are to have no response to that request, we must discuss the question, because it seems to me that this Amendment is fundamental.

Once we accept this proposal, it is idle to pretend that the rest of the discussion in respect of the district councils matters at all. By implication, we are accepting the proposal to establish district councils when we have accepted this Amendment, but it is not the major Amendment. Clearly, the Parliamentary draftsmen might have given a little more thought to the preparation of this part of the Bill. It is true that we want to pass on to the details of this proposal, but we cannot discuss the details without discussing the major proposal itself.[Interruption.] I shall show to the Lord Advocate, whose risible faculties are the only things that do respond in a discussion of this sort, with very little advantage to the Committee or to himself, that there is one very substantial reason for the observation which I have just made.

If I heard the Secretary of State for Scotland aright, he spoke of the district council as a new rating authority. When we are discussing the setting up of a new rating authority, we are bound to discuss its rights in respect of rating, and we are discussing, therefore, not only the major proposition but the details. These district councils are to levy a special rate, and that rate is to be the rate hitherto levied under Part V of the 1904 Act. They raise a rate, but, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) properly asked, what is going to be done with it? Is there going to be expenditure? If so, is the product of the rate to be dispensed by the district council? If so, for what purpose? Having regard to the previous discussion in respect of the parish councils and their functions, we must now ask whether the revenue raised by the new district council is to be used for a purpose similar to that for which the parish council raised its rate, namely, Poor Law administration. I think the Secretary of State for Scotland is himself in doubt about that.

Major ELLIOT

Not in the least.

Mr. SHINWELL

Then I hope the Under-Secretary will tell me what the position is, because if there is no doubt about it, the matter might have been made very much clearer than it has. At all events, if a rate is to be levied, what use is to be made of it? Will the district council devote the revenue that is so raised for the purpose of Poor Law administration, as we understand it, or is it to hand over the product of the rate to the county council and the county council to disperse Poor Law relief? There is nothing in the Bill of a specific character in that connection, but I will tell the Committee what is in the Bill. There is the word "may." There is a good deal of "may" in the Bill, rather too much of "may," but there is something much worse than that. There is a request for excessive powers by the Secretary of State for Scotland.

The CHAIRMAN

What has that to do with the functions of the district councils?

Mr. SHINWELL

I have no desire to transgress the Rules of the Committee, but that is precisely the point. A scheme has to be prepared. A district council is set up, but when it is set up it is set up under a scheme. The mere fact that we pass this Amendment now, and subsequent Amendments in respect of the setting up of district councils, does not settle the matter. A scheme has to be submitted by the county council for the election of members to a district council. It is true that its functions are laid down here, ambiguous though they are. We have some idea, at least, in respect of certain of the functions they are called upon to undertake, but clearly a scheme has to be prepared by the county council, and that scheme has to be submitted to the right hon. Gentleman, who may approve or disapprove of it. He can do as he pleases. I suggest that, in all the circumstances, we are entitled to ask the Government either to withdraw this Amendment and return to it at a later stage, or to give us a clear explanation of the position. We have to come shortly to a substantial part of the Bill relating to small burghs, on which there is bound to be a long discussion. If the Lord Advocate cannot clear this point up rapidly, we shall have a long discussion on it, and shall not be able to come to other matters which the Lord Advocate and his friends are anxious to discuss.

Mr. HARDIE

Is it not possible for something to be done? It is not so much a question of what is on the Order Paper, as an arrangement. When we agreed about time being given to the various Clauses, we did not know about this Amendment. This Amendment will keep the Committee from discussing the question of the burghs and other important matters, and it seems that the Government have planned this jig-saw puzzle in order to keep us from discussing these very important things. On an Amendment like this we are not able to discuss what the functions of the district council are to be. The failure is due to the Member's of the Government on the Front Bench, and I am surprised at my fellow countrymen failing in that way. Will the Lord Advocate or the Under-Secretary say what the functions of the new council are to be?

Mr. STEPHEN

The Government are putting the Committee in an extraordinary position. There has been one question after another about this district council but the Lord Advocate and the Under-Secretary sit still and are evidently not going to give the Committee any advice at all. It is true that the Under-Secretary, evidently believing that he knew more about it than the Lord Advocate, was going to reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley), but the Lord Advocate pulled him down into his seat, presumably being afraid that he might make confusion worse confounded. We are in the extraordinary position that the Committee can get no guidance from the Government in this matter. I am astounded at the words of this Amendment, for on looking through local government authorities in Scotland for a district council, I cannot find one. I am quite at a loss to understand how the Amendment is really in Order, because it refers to something which is not in Scotand. There is no such thing as a district council, and yet here we are transferring functions to something that is not. It is a most absurd position. "There ain't no sich person," and yet here we are transferring powers to her. If only as a matter of courtesy, the Government should give us an answer to our questions, especially after what the Secretary of State has said and the confused way in which he has wandered about today. On former occasions the Lord Advocate has shown some clarity, and I hope that on this occasion he will be able to help us in the confusion in which the Secretary of State has plunged the Committee as he has done on so many occasions.

9.0 p.m.

The LORD ADVOCATE

I confess that I have very little scope left for any explanation after the Ruling which you, Sir, were, I admit, bound to give in view of the failure of the other side to agree to my suggestion and the wish of my right hon. Friend that he should give the very explanation for which they are now asking me. I dislike appearing to be discourteous, but I propose to go on giving the explanation until I am stopped by the Chair for being out of Order. This Amendment merely establishes the fact that certain powers are proposed to be transferred to the district council in another part of the Bill. I will describe what the transferred powers are. Parish councils are being abolished, and their powers are being distributed (a) to county councils in counties, and (b) to the district councils. The powers transferred to the district councils, which are specified in a later Amendment, will be the district council statutory powers, if I may use the phrase, and they will exercise those powers as of right under the Bill. In addition to that, the district council may have further business put upon them, by agreement or otherwise, by the county council, under which they will exercise not the district council statutory powers, but the business which is entrusted to them by the county council as agents of the county council.

The district council will exercise the statutory powers as of right, and they are defined in the Bill. What they will be asked to do by the county council as agents of the county council is a matter which, we believe, is rightly for the discretion of the county council to say, and we do not propose in this Bill to forestall that discretion by defining what the county council are willing and thinks right to delegate to the district council as their agents; but it is important to keep in view the difference between the two duties which the district council will have. The statutory duties are the only duties referred to in this Amendment, and are defined in a later Amendment, and it is a totally separate class of duty which will arise out of the possible delegation to them as agents of the county council. I hope that that has made a little clearer what is the position of the Government—a perfectly logical position—as regards this matter.

Mr. WHEATLEY

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman favour us with his opinion whether it would be legal for a county council to delegate to the district council the absolute power of granting Poor Law relief?

The LORD ADVOCATE

It all depends on what the right hon. Gentleman means by absolute power, but I will answer him. It reminds me of a point which I should have answered in the right hon. Gentleman's speech. The power of the district council to rate under the Bill will be only for their expenditure under the statutory powers to which I have referred, and the limit of that rate will be a shilling, and they will not be at all accountable in their budget for that expenditure to the county council. They will do only the other parts of their duties, which I call delegated or agency duties, as duties delegated from the county council, and will do them only with money supplied by the county council and rated for by the county council. That is the answer to the right hon. Gentleman.

Mr. SHINWELL

What about the Poor Law?

The LORD ADVOCATE

I am coming to that. If, for instance, the administration of outdoor poor relief is delegated by the county council to the district council as their agent, then the money for any expenditure for that purpose must be supplied by the county council to their agent, just as in any other case of agency; and they will be answerable to the county council for their expenditure as agents, just as any other agent is. It is an agency question.

Mr. HARDIE

Is that expenditure not to be controlled by the county council?

The LORD ADVOCATE

Yes, absolutely.

Mr. HARDIE

That means that you contradict yourself when you say that they are to have the power to give out. You cannot give out unless you have something that is unrestricted. If you only act as agent you are restricted.

The LORD ADVOCATE

Agents give out every day subject to being answerable to their principals for their expenditure and their actions.

Mr. SHINWELL

Will that not mean that some district councils will have the power to deal with Poor Law and other district councils will not?

The LORD ADVOCATE

Yes, it may very well mean that. It will depend, as my right hon. Friend suggested on the circumstances of the locality, and whether it be better from the point of view of administration and from the point of view of the poor themselves that the matter should be delegated or not delegated.

Mr. WHEATLEY

I must confess that I am still in some doubt about the position. I quite appreciate that the district council will be responsible to the county council for money supplied to it for Poor Law relief purposes, but will they have power, after they have considered individual cases, to vary the amounts to be paid in these cases, as the parish council have the power to do at present, or will they have to work under a standard laid down by the county council and without any power to depart from that standard?

The LORD ADVOCATE

The answer to that is very simple. It will depend on what are the terms of the agency.

Mr. MACLEAN

Are we to take it that each county council will have the power to make regulations governing the powers they are delegating to a district council, and are we to take it, therefore, that in Scotland we may have seven or eight different county councils giving out sets of powers to seven or eight district councils? If that is so, I call this Bedlam. It is not a Bill at all.

The LORD ADVOCATE

Every scheme of administration has to be submitted to my right hon. Friend or the central Department, and, of course, that will ensure a certain uniformity. There are many points on which there must be uniformity, but in so far as local conditions may vary, and when variations in the regulations may be necessary for the more effective administration of an area, such variations will not be objected to.

Mr. MACLEAN

Then are we to take it that the Secretary for Scotland is to have the power to fix the scale of relief in Scotland?

The LORD ADVOCATE

No.

Mr. MACLEAN

That is what it means, from your answer.

The LORD ADVOCATE

No.

Mr. BARR

It is quite evident from the White Paper and from the Amendments which have been put down that the initiative in the matter of delegation will lie with the county council. In the case of a county council resolving not to delegate certain functions relating to the Poor Law, I take it that the Secretary of State could not intervene there, and therefore you cannot have uniformity, because the wording is: They may delegate to the district councils any other functions specified in the scheme as approved by the Secretary of State for Scotland.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

I would like to put it to the Lord Advocate this way. Say

there were miners on strike in Lanarkshire, and that the authority there were supplying children with food and clothing. Would the Secretary of State have power to stop them from doing it?

The LORD ADVOCATE

The county council is the Poor Law authority which is responsible.

Mr. WESTWOOD

I think the explanation given by the Lord Advocate has destroyed every argument for the Bill which was submitted on Second Reading. The chief argument from the Government side then was the need for uniformity in administration, the need for setting up one rating authority and the need for effective control in connection with expenditure. The Government proposals will now set up two rating authorities, and the grandiose scheme of a local parliament which they submitted for the consideration of the House on the Second Reading of the Bill is destroyed before we have got through even the first Clause. They have already whittled down or given away certain of the claims they made in connection with the burgh councils. I think they left these powers to those burgh councils. Now they are changing their attitude by setting up district committees. There will neither be uniformity nor yet one rating authority under their proposals, which will simply produce a great muddle in administration in Scotland.

Question put, "That the word 'and' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 90; Noes, 184.

Division No. 157.]	AYES.	[9.13 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)	Lawrence, Susan
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)	Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)	Lawson, John James
Barnes, A.	Greenall, T.	Lee, F.
Barr, J.	Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Lowth, T.
Batey, Joseph	Griffith, F. Kingsley	MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)
Bellamy, A.	Groves, T.	Mackinder, W.
Benn, Wedgwood	Grundy, T. W.	Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.	Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	MacNeill-Weir, L.
Briant, Frank	Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)
Broad, F. A.	Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Bromfield, William	Hardie, George D.	Mosley, Sir Oswald
Bromley, J.	Hayday, Arthur	Oliver, George Harold
Brown, Ernest (Leith)	Hirst, G. H.	Palin, John Henry
Charleton, H. C.	Hollins, A.	Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Cluse, W. S.	Hore-Belisha, Leslie	Potts, John S.
Cove, W. G.	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Ritson, J.
Crawfurd, H. E.	Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)	Scrymgeour, E.
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Scurr, John
Duncan, C.	Kelly, W. T.	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Edge, Sir William	Kennedy, T.	Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)	Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.	Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Gardner, J. P.	Kirkwood, D.	Shinwell, E.
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.	Lansbury, George	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)	Tomlinson, R. p.	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Smillie, Robert	Townend, A. E.	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Smith, Rennie (Penistone)	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)	Windsor, Walter
Snowden, Rt. Hon, Philip	Wellock, Wilfred	Wright, Brig.-General W. D.
Stephen, Campbell	Welsh, J. C.	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)	Westwood, J.
Sutton, J. E.	Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)	Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)	Mr. Hayes and Mr. T. Henderson.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Forestier-Walker, Sir L.	Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles	Forrest, W.	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Albery, Irving James	Fraser, Captain Ian	Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)	Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.	Nelson, Sir Frank
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman	Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony	Neville, Sir Reginald J.
Apsley, Lord	Galbraith, J. F. W.	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John	Nuttall, Ellis
Atkinson, C.	Gower, Sir Robert	Oakley, T.
Balniel, Lord	Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.	Grant, Sir J. A.	O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Greene, W. P. Crawford	Penny, Frederick George
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.	Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E)	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)	Pilcher, G.
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Hacking, Douglas H.	Power, sir John Cecil
Berry, Sir George	Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Breton & Rad.)	Ramsden, E.
Betterton, Henry B.	Hamilton, Sir George	Rawson, Sir Cooper
Birchall, Major J. Dearman	Hammersley, S. S.	Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)
Blundell, F. N.	Hanbury, C.	Raid, D. D. (County Down)
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Harland, A.	Renter, J. R.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.	Harrison, G. J. C.	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Brassey, Sir Leonard	Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Rice, Sir Frederick
Briggs, J. Harold	Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)	Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Brittain, Sir Harry	Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian	Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.	Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Henn, Sir Sydney H.	Ropner, Major L.
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)	Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.	Ross, R. D.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)	Hills, Major John Waller	Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Buchan, John	Hilton, Cecil	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Buckingham, Sir H.	Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Sandeman, N. Stewart
Burman, J. B.	Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)	Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl (Renfrew, W.)
Cassels, J. D.	Hopkins, J. W. W.	Shepperson, E. W.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton	Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)	Skelton, A. N.
Chapman, Sir S.	Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.	Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Clarry, Reginald George	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)	Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Clayton, G. C.	Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)	Sprot, Sir Alexander
Cobb, Sir Cyril	Hume, Sir G. H.	Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George	Hurd, Percy A.	Streatfeild, Captain S. R.
Cohen, Major J. Brunel	Hurst, Gerald B.	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Conway, Sir W. Martin	Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Cooper, A. Duff	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Tinne, J. A.
Courtauld, Major J. S.	Kindersley, Major G. M.	Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)	King, Commodore Henry Douglas	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)	Knox, Sir Alfred	Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)	Lamb, J. Q.	Warrender, Sir victor
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Dalkeith, Earl of	Loder, J. de v.	Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)	Long, Major Eric	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Davison, Sir w. H. (Kensington, S.)	Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere	Watts, Sir Thomas
Dawson, Sir Phillip	Luce, Maj.-Gen, Sir Richard Harman	Wayland, Sir William A.
Dixey, A. C.	Lumley, L. R.	Wells, S. R.
Eden Captain Anthony	MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Edmondson, Major A. J.	Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)	White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dailrymple.
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)	McLean, Major A.	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Elliot, Major Walter E.	MacRobert, Alexander M.	Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Ellis, R. G.	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith	Margesson, Captain D.	Womersley, W. J.
Everard, W. Lindsay	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Falle, Sir Bertram G.	Meller, R. J.
Fanshawe, Captain G. D	Merriman, Sir F. Boyd	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Fielden, E. B.	Meyer, Sir Frank.	Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain
Ford, Sir P. J.	Milne, J. S. wardlaw.	Wallace.

Question, "That the proposed words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Mr. DUNCAN GRAHAM

I beg to move, in page 2, to leave out from the word "thereof," in line 3, to the end of line 6.

My object in moving this Amendment is to secure that the duties of the parish councils shall not be transferred to the large burghs.

The CHAIRMAN

The result of the hon. Member's Amendment would be that a parish council would not be transferred to the council of a large burgh, and the large burghs of county councils would still be the authority.

Mr. GRAHAM

If that be so, then I do not propose to waste any further time discussing this point, which is of less importance than matters which arise later in the Clause.

Mr. STEPHEN

I understand that under this Clause the parish councils are abolished so far as the county area is concerned. What will be the position in connection with the administration? If you abolish the parish councils in large burghs in the county area, you will have a scheme which will allow of the elective principle being conserved by delegation to the district councils. I understand that there are no district councils being set up in the large burghs, and I take it that I am right in that assumption. Therefore, we are left in the position with regard to the large burghs, which are constituted as the Poor Law authority in the future, that some scheme has to be prepared and submitted to the Secretary of State for Scotland, and then possibly so many people may be co-opted. We hold that things are equally bad in the urban districts, and we object to people being put at the mercy of non-elected persons in the city. Is there to be any provision with regard to the cities and large towns which are transformed to Poor Law authorities? There appears to me to be another weakness in this case. It is of great importance to know whether the principle of co-option is to be adopted in the cities or whether the elective principle is to be adopted there as in the county areas.

Major ELLIOT

There is no district council in the large burgh. The object of the district council is to preserve local touch which it is felt might be lost in large areas if there was nothing between the countryside and the county town. In the burgh where there is much less danger of losing touch there is no district council. It is not necessary to have one to protect against the risk of losing touch.

Mr. STEPHEN

Is there going to be a committee with co-opted members on it to administer the Poor Law?

Major ELLIOT

There will be a committee set up with power of co-option given to the local authority if it finds it cannot otherwise efficiently administer the scheme.

Mr. WHEATLEY

That means that co-opted members may administer it in the burghs, but in the counties the members must be elected.

Major ELLIOT

In the counties it is the county council; in the cities it is the town council. In both cases the decisions are taken by the majority of elected members. In the counties administration is delegated to the district councils, but in the cities, where there is no danger of losing touch, it is done by a committee.

Mr. MACLEAN

Are the county councils then to set up several district councils and delegate their powers to them and—

The CHAIRMAN

We are dealing now with the town council.

Mr. MACLEAN

I am pointing out the difference between the functions of the town council and the powers transferred to the town council under this Bill compared with the functions and powers given to the county council. They are altogether different.

Major ELLIOT

The county council is the authority in the county; the town council is the authority in the town. In both cases the powers given are exactly the same. They are the Poor Law authorities. They do the rating and declare the conditions under which the Poor Law is administered.

Mr. MACLEAN

My point is that in the county the county council can delegate its powers to several district councils under its administration and that they are composed of elected members. In the town council there is no such provision, and the town council is going to carry on the educational functions and the parish council functions as well, and can take in co-opted members.

Mr. WESTWOOD

Reference to the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow will prove that the Under-Secretary has given an entirely different explanation of this particular question from that which the Secretary of State for Scotland has given. The Secretary of State stated, in introducing the Amendment, that, for the purpose of meeting the arguments which have been submitted from his own side of the Committee, they were seeking to set up an elected body, and by other means to do away with all co-option of members dealing with local administration, with the exception of members necessary for carrying through the administration of education. Now we have heard from the Under-Secretary that the large burghs will be able to have co-opted members for Poor Law administration. It would be interesting to hear what will go on behind the scenes to-night between the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary when they attempt to reconcile their statements.

Major ELLIOT

There is not the slightest shadow of a scintilla of difference between the explanations of the Secretary of State for Scotland and myself. I am merely explaining a Bill which has been before the country for a much longer time than even the Amendments we are now discussing.

Mr. WHEATLEY

Glasgow will learn with amazement to-morrow that Lanark-

shire can delegate only its Poor Law powers from its county council to an elected body, but that in the City of Glasgow, where according to the Government people with experience in the administration of the Poor Law are to be called in to do the work, the work of administration in Glasgow may be done by non-elected persons, while all around it is laid down that the Poor Law must be administered by elected persons.

Major ELLIOT

As far as I can make out, the right hon. Member has misunderstood the explanation of my right hon. Friend. I assure him it it not compulsory. I cannot go back now on the decision which the Committee has just taken. I regret to see that in the decision we have taken the right hon. Gentleman has voted under a misapprehension.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 186; Noes, 92.

Division No. 158.]	AYES.	[9.34 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Courtauld, Major J. S.	Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian
Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles	Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)	Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Albery, Irving James	Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)	Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)	Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)	Hills, Major John Waller
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman	Dalkeith, Earl of	Hilton, Cecil
Apsley, Lord	Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)	Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. Q.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Davison Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)	Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Atkinson, C.	Dawson, Sir Philip	Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Balniel, Lord	Dixey, A. C.	Hopkins, J. W. W.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.	Eden, Captain Anthony	Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Edmondson, Major A. J.	Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.	Elliot, Major Walter E.	Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Ellis, R. G.	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney. N.)
Berry, Sir George	Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith	Hudson, R. s. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)
Betterton, Henry B.	Everard, W. Lindsay	Hume, Sir G. H.
Birchall, Major J. Dearman	Falle, Sir Bertram G.	Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Avimer
Blundell, F. N.	Fanshawe, Captain G. D.	Hurd, Percy A.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Fielden, E. B.	Hurst, Gerald B.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.	Ford, Sir P. J.	Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Brassey, Sir Leonard	Forestier-Walker, Sir L	James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Briggs, J. Harold	Fraser, Captain Ian	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Brittain, Sir Harry	Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.	Kindersley, Major Guy M.
Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony	King, Commodore Henry Douglas
Brown-Lindsay, Major H.	Galbraith, J. F. W.	Knox, Sir Alfred
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd, Hexham)	Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John	Lamb, J. Q.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)	Gower, Sir Robert	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Buchan, John	Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)	Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey
Buckingham, Sir H.	Grant, Sir J. A.	Loder, J. de V.
Burman, J. B.	Greene, W. P. Crawford	Long, Major Eric
Cassels, J. D.	Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E)	Lucas-Tooth, sir Hugh Vere
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton	Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)	Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Chapman, Sir S.	Hacking, Douglas H.	Lumley, L. R.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)	Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen
Clarry, Reginald George	Hamilton, sir George	Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Clayton, G. C.	Hammersley, S. S.	McLean, Major A.
Cobb, Sir Cyril	Hanbury, C.	MacRobert, Alexander M.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Harland, A.	Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George	Harrison, G. J. C.	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Cohen, Major J. Brunel	Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)	Margesson, Capt. D.
Conway, Sir W. Martin	Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Cooper, A. Duff	Henderson, Capt. R, R. (Oxf'd, Henley)	Meller, R. J
Merriman, Sir F. Boyd	Reid, D. D. (County Down)	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell
Meyer, Sir Frank	Remer, J. R.	Tinne, J. A.
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.	Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)	Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough
Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)	Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)	Wallace, Captain D. E.
Moore, Sir Newton J.	Ropner, Major L.	Warrender, Sir Victor
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.	Ross, R. D.	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Nelson, Sir Frank	Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.	Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Neville, Sir Reginald J.	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)	Sandeman, N. Stewart	Watts, Sir Thomas
Nuttall, Ellis	Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)	Wayland, Sir William A.
Oakley, T.	Shepperson, E. W.	Wells, S. R.
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)	Skelton, A. N.	White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple-
O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kine'dine, C.)	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Penny, Frederick George	Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)	Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)	Southby, Commander A. R. J.	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Sprot, Sir Alexander	Womersley, W. J.
Pilcher, G.	Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Power, Sir John Cecil	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Ramsden, E.	Streatfelld, Captain S. R.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Rawson, Sir Cooper	Sueter, Roar-Admiral Murray Fraser	Mr. F. C. Thomson and Major Sir
		George Hennessy.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Hardie, George D.	Scurr, John
Ammon, Charles George	Hayday, Arthur	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)	Hayes, John Henry	Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Barnes, A.	Hirst, G. H.	Shinwell, E.
Barr, J.	Holline, A.	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Batey, Joseph	Hore-Bellsha, Leslie	Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Bellamy, A.	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Smillie, Robert
Benn, Wedgwood	Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)	Smith, Rennle (Penistone)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Briant, Frank	Kelly, W. T.	Stephen, Campbell
Broad, F. A.	Kennedy, T.	Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Bromfield, William	Kirkwood, D.	Sutton, J. E.
Bromley, J.	Lansbury, George	Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Brown, Ernest (Leith)	Lawrence, Susan	Tomlinson, R. P.
Charieton, H. C.	Lawson, John James	Townend, A. E.
Cluse, W. S.	Lee, F.	Viant, S. P.
Cove, W. G.	Lindley, F. W.	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Duncan, C.	Lowth, T.	Wellock, Wilfred
Edge, Sir William	MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)	Welsh, J. C
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)	Mackinder, W.	westwood, J.
Forrest, W.	MacLaren, Andrew	Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Gardner, J. P.	Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)	Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)	MacNeill-Weir, L.	Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)	Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Greenall, T.	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Mosley, Sir Oswald	Windsor, Walter
Griffith, F. Kingsley	Oliver, George Harold	Wright, W.
Groves, T.	Palin, John Henry	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grundy, T. W.	Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Hall, F. (York W.R., Normanton)	Potts, John S.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Ritson, J	Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. T.
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)	Scrymgeour, E.	Henderson.

The LORD ADVOCATE

I beg to move, in page 2, line 10, after the word "churchyard," to insert the words "so far as."

This is really a drafting Amendment. There are some cases in which a churchyard is partly in a burgh and partly in a county, and there is an Amendment to Clause 11 of the Bill which will provide that the two authorities who are jointly interested in the total graveyard shall be deemed to be combined for the purposes of administration.

Amendment agreed to.

The LORD ADVOCATE

I beg to move, in page 2, line 15, at the end, to add the words: (2) Subject to the provisions of this Act, all the functions of the parish council of each landward parish and of each parish containing a landward part, so far as relating to the landward part—

1. (a) under Part IV of the Act of 1894;
2. (b) under Part V (other than Subsection (6) of Section thirty) of the said Act (except in the case of parish trusts so far as relating to the poor or to churchyards or to burial grounds);
3. (c) under the Public Libraries (Scotland) Acts, 1887 to 1920;
4. (d) under the Allotments Acts;
1531
5. (e) under Section seventy-nine of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903; and
6. (f) under Section forty-nine of the Post Office Act, 1908;

shall be transferred to and vest in the district council (constituted as hereinafter provided) for the district so far as the functions relate to the district, and any statutory provision empowering a parish council to which this Sub-section applies to make a representation shall be construed as empowering the district council of the district to which the representation relates to make the representation.

This is the detailed classification of the powers which it is proposed to transfer from the parish councils to the district councils. My right hon. Friend has already explained the nature of the powers under the sixth head, and accordingly I will not detain the Committee, but will simply move the Amendment.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 186; Noes, 92.

Division No. 159.]	AYES.	[9.45 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.	Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles	Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Albery, Irving James	Galbraith, J. F. W.	Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)	Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John	Moore, Sir Newton J.
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman	Gower, sir Robert	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Apsley, Lord	Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)	Nelson, Sir Frank
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Grant, Sir J. A.	Neville, Sir Reginald J.
Atkinson, C.	Greene, W. P. Crawford	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Balniel, Lord	Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E)	Nuttall, Ellis
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.	Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)	Oakley, T.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Hacking, Douglas H.	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.	Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)	O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Hamilton, Sir George	Penny, Frederick George
Berry, Sir George	Hammersley, S. S.	Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Betterton, Henry B.	Hanbury, C.	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Birchall, Major J. Dearman	Harland, A.	Pilcher, G.
Blundell, F. N.	Harrison, G. J. C.	Power, Sir John Cecil
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)	Ramsden, E.
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.	Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Rawson, Sir Cooper
Brassey, Sir Leonard	Henderson, Capt. R.R. (Oxf'd, Hentry)	Remer, J. R.
Briggs, J. Harold	Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Brittain, Sir Harry	Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.	Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Henn, Sir Sydney H.	Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.	Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Brown, Col. D.C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)	Hills, Major John Waller	Ropner, Major L.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)	Hilton, Cecil	Ross, R. D.
Buchan, John	Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.	Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Buckingham, Sir H.	Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Burman, J. B	Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)	Sandeman, N. Stewart
Cassels, J. D.	Hopkins, J. W. W.	Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton	Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)	Shepperson, E. W.
Chapman, Sir S.	Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)	Skelton, A. N.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.	Smith, R.W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Clarry, Reginald George	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney. N.)	Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Clayton, G. C.	Hudson, R. S. (Cmuberl'nd, Whiteh'n)	Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Cobb, Sir Cyril	Hume, Sir G. H.	Sprot, Sir Alexander
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer	Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George	Hurd, Percy A.	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Cohen, Major J. Brunel	Hurst, Gerald B.	Streatfeild, Captain S. R.
Conway, Sir W. Martin	Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Cooper, A. Duff	James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Courtauld, Major J. S.	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Tinne, J. A.
Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)	King, Commodore Henry Douglas	Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Crooks, J. Smedley (Deritend)	Knox, Sir Alfred	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)	Lamb, J. Q.	Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough
Dalkeith, Earl of	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Wallace, Captain D. E.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)	Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey	Warrender, Sir Victor
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)	Loder, J. de V.	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Dawson, Sir Philip	Long, Major Eric	Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Dixey, A. C.	Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Eden, Captain Anthony	Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman	Watts, Sir Thomas
Edmondson, Major A. J.	Lumley, L. R.	Wayland, Sir William A.
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)	MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen	Wells, S. R.
Elliot, Major Walter E.	Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)	White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple-
Ellis, R. G.	McLean, Major A.	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith	MacRobert, Alexander M.	Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Everard, W. Lindsay	Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Falle, Sir Bertram G.	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Withers, John James
Fanshawe, Captain G. D	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Womersley, W. J.
Fielden, E. B.	Meller, R. J.	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Ford, Sir P. J.	Merriman, Sir F. Boyd
Forestier-Walker, Sir L.	Meyer, Sir Frank	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Forrest, W.	Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-	Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain
		Margesson.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Hardle, George D.	Scurr, John
Ammon, Charles George	Hayday, Arthur	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton,, Bilston)	Hayes, John Henry	Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Barnes, A.	Hirst, G. H.	Shinwell, E.
Barr, J.	Hollins, A.	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Batey, Joseph	Hore-Bellsha, Leslie	Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Bellamy, A.	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Smillie, Robert
Benn, Wedgwood	Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)	Smith, Rennie (penistone)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Briant, Frank	Kelly, W. T.	Stephen, Campbell
Broad, F. A.	Kennedy, T.	Stewart, J, (St. Rollox)
Bromfield, William	Kirkwood, D.	Sutton, J. E.
Bromley, J.	Lanabury, George	Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Brown, Ernest (Leith)	Lawrence, Susan	Tomlinson, R. P.
Charieton, H. C.	Lawson, John James	Townend, A. E.
Cluse, W. S.	Lee, F.	Viant, S. P.
Cove, W. G.	Lindley, F. W.	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Duncan, C.	Lowth, T.	Wellock, Wilfred
Edge, Sir William	MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)	Welsh, J. C.
Fenby, T. D.	Mackinder, W.	Westwood, J.
Gardner, J. P.	MacLaren, Andrew	Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.	Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)	Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)	MacNeill-Weir, L.	Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)	Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Greenall, T.	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Mosley, Sir Oswald	Windsor, Walter
Griffith, F. Kingsley	Oliver, George Harold	Wright, W.
Groves, T.	Palin, John Henry	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grundy, T. W.	Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	Potts, John S.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Bitson, J.	Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. T.
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)	Scrymgeour, E.	Henderson.

The CHAIRMAN

I observe in circulation an object which bears a superficial resemblance to a newspaper. I must remind hon. Members that it is not in order to produce newspapers in the House.

Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 185; Noes, 93.

Division No. 160.]	AYES.	[9.54 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George	Hamilton, Sir George
Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles	Cohen, Major J. Brunel	Hammersley, S. S.
Albery, Irving James	Conway, Sir W. Martin	Hanbury, C.
Alexander, sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)	Cooper, A. Duff	Harland, A.
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman	Courtauld, Major J. S.	Harrison, G. J. C.
Apsley, Lord	Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn. N.)	Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Crooks, J. Smedley (Deritend)	Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Atkinson, C.	Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)	Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxford, Henley)
Balniel, Lord	Dalkeith, Earl of	Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.	Davies, Maj. Gee. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)	Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)	Henn Sir Sydney H.
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.	Dawson, Sir Philip	Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Dixey, A. C.	Hills, Major John Waller
Berry, Sir George	Eden, Captain Anthony	Hilton, Cecil
Betterton, Henry B.	Edmondson, Major A. J.	Hoare Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Birchall, Major J. Dearman	Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)	Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Blundell, F. N.	Elliot, Major Walter E.	Hope Sir Harry (Forfar)
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Ellis, R. G.	Hopkins, J. W. W.
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.	Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith	Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)
Brassey, Sir Leonard	Everard, W, Lindsay	Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Briggs, J. Harold	Falle, Sir Bertram G.	Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.
Brittain, Sir Harry	Fanshawe, Captain G. D.	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Fielden, E. B.	Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)
Brown-Lindsay, Major H.	Ford, Sir P. J.	Hume, Sir G. H.
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)	Forrest, W.	Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)	Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.	Hurd, Percy A.
Buchan, John	Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony	Hurst, Gerald B.
Buckingham, Sir H.	Galbraith, J. F. W.	Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Burman, J. B.	Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John	James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Cassels, J. D.	Gower, Sir Robert	Jones, Sir G. W. H.(Stoke New'gton)
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton	Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Chapman, Sir S.	Grant, Sir J. A.	King, Commodore Henry Douglas
Charterls, Brigadier-General J.	Greene, W. P. Crawford	Knox, Sir Alfred
Clarry, Reginald George	Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E)	Lamb, J. Q.
Clayton, G. C.	Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Cobb, Sir Cyril	Hacking, Douglas H.	Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey
Cochrane, Commander Hon A. D.	Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)	Loder, J. de V.
Long, Major Eric	Penny, Frederick George	Streatfeild, Captain S. R.
Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere	Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Lumley, L. R.	Pilcher, G.	Tinne, J. A.
MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen	Power, Sir John Cecil	Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)	Ramsden, E.	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
McLean, Major A.	Rawson, Sir Cooper	Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough
Mac Robert, Alexander M.	Remer, J. R.	Wallace, Captain D. E.
Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.	Warrender, Sir Victor
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Richardson, Sir p. w. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)	Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Meller, R. J.	Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Merriman, Sir P. Boyd	Ropner, Major L.	Watts, Sir Thomas
Meyer, Sir Frank	Ross, R. D.	Wayland, Sir William A.
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.	Wells, S. R.
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)	White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple-
Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)	Sandeman, N. Stewart	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Moore, Sir Newton J.	Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)	Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C	Shepperson, E. W.	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Nelson, Sir Frank	Skelton, A. N.	Withers, John James
Neville, Sir Reginald J.	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)	Womersley, W. J.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)	Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Nuttall, Ellis	Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Oakley, T.	Sprot, Sir Alexander	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)	Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.	Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain
O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)	Margesson.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Hardie, George D.	Scrymgeour, E.
Ammon, Charles George	Hayday, Arthur	Scurr, John
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)	Henderson, T. (Glasgow)	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Barr, J.	Hirst, G. H.	Shiels, Dr. Drummond.
Batey, Joseph	Hollins, A.	Shinwell, E.
Bellamy, A.	Hore-Bellsha, Leslie	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Benn, Wedgwood	Hudson, J. H. (Huddertfield)	Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.	Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)	Smillie, Robert
Briant, Frank	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Smith, Rennle (Penistone)
Broad, F. A.	Kelly, W. T.	Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Bromfield, William	Kennedy, T.	Stephen, Campbell
Bromley, J.	Kirkwood, D.	Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Brown, Ernest (Leith)	Lansbury, George	Sutton, J. E.
Charleton, H. C.	Lawrence, Susan	Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Cluse, W. S.	Lawson, John James	Tomlinson, R. P.
Cove, W. G.	Lee, F.	Townend, A. E.
Duncan, C.	Lindley, F. W.	Viant, S. P.
Edge, Sir William	Lowth, T.	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)	MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)	Wellock, Wilfred
Fenby, T. D.	Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)	Welsh, J. C.
Gardner, J. P.	Mackinder, W.	Westwood, J.
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.	MacLean, Andrew	Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)	Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)	Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)	MacNeill-Weir, L.	Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)
Greenall, T.	Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Griffith, F. Kingsley	Mosley, Sir Oswald	Windsor, Walter
Groves, T.	Oliver, George Harold	Wright, W.
Grundy, T. W.	Palin, John Henry	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Potts, John S.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)	Ritson, J.	Mr. Hayes and Mr. A. Barnes.