§ 41. Mr. COVEasked the President of the Board of Education whether he can 1607 make a statement as to maintenance grants in connection with raising the school age?
§ 44. Mr. HARRISasked the President of the Board of Education whether he can make any statements as to his proposals for providing maintenance allowance when the proposal to raise the school age comes into operation and whether they will be on the basis of a flat rate or whether the rates will vary according to family needs or according to area?
§ Sir C. TREVELYANThe Bill for raising the school-leaving age was introduced last Tuesday and is now in the hands of Members, and, as the House will observe, it contains provisions for maintenance allowances in respect of the children affected by the raising of the school age, and for the payment of Exchequer grant in respect of the local authorities' expenditure on such allowances. The conditions governing the award of maintenance allowances by the local education authorities and the payment of grant by the Exchequer will following the normal course, form the subject of regulations which will he made by the Board under the provisions of Section 118 of the Education Act, and these regulations will be framed in accordance with the decisions to which the Government have come on the subject and which I am about to explain to the House.
The Government, guided largely by the expressions of opinion which they have received from representative associations of local education authorities, and with a view to bringing the method of awarding the new allowances into line with the principles on which awards are at present made to selected children attending central and secondary schools, have decided that the new maintenance allowances should be related to the actual needs of the children and their parents. I propose to ask the representatives of the local education authorities to assist me by forming a committee to recommend scales of need and a simple procedure for determining eligibility. In every case in which the prescribed conditions are satisfied it will be the duty of the local education authority to pay the maintenance allowance as a matter of course.
1608 With regard to the Exchequer contribution the Government have decided that the State should pay grant at the unusually high rate of 60 per cent, on allowances not exceeding five shillings a week. The initial cost of these allowances may be estimated at about £3,000,000 a year, of which the Exchequer will bear £1,800,000. Taking the extra charge for education and the cost of maintenance allowances together, the total cost of the Government's proposals will be about five and a half million pounds a year, of which the Exchequer will pay about four millions or over 70 per cent. Both the form and the amount of the maintenance allowances will be provisional and subject to revision after the experience of five years. In conclusion, I ought to make it clear that the Bill has been introduced at the present time for the guidance of local education authorities and that the legislative programme of the Government is so full that no date can at present be suggested for the Second Reading. It is, however, the determination of the Government to pass it before Christmas, 1930.
§ Lord EUSTACE PERCYI wish to put two questions arising out of the right hon. Gentleman's answer. First, what is to happen in the case of maintenance allowances in excess of 5s., because I understand the Government grant of 60 per cent. is confined to allowances below 5s. a week. Secondly, in view of the fact that under the Bill these regulations, though only draft regulations, carry for the first time in such regulations a statutory obligation on the local authorities, will the right hon. Gentleman see that the House has an opportunity of discussing them before they are put into force?
§ Sir C. TREVELYANI cannot answer the second question without further consideration. That point will arise on the terms of the Bill. With regard to the first question, the proposed Government grant will be applicable to maintenance allowances up to 5s.
§ Lord E. PERCYBut not higher? In the case of higher allowances, is no grant at all to be allowed?
§ Sir C. TREVELYANthe Government grant is only valid up to the 5s.
§ Mr. HARRISDoes the right hon. Gentleman's reply mean that there is going to be a means test? Secondly, does it also mean that the rates of allowances will vary according to the areas?
§ Sir C. TREVELYANI have said that I am asking the local authorities to help me by the appointment of a committee to decide details of that kind.
§ Mr. HARRISWhat the country wants to be made clear is this—are these maintenance allowances to be universal, applying to the children of all parents, or are they only to apply to some?
§ Sir C. TREVELYANI thought I made it quite clear that they would be related to the actual needs of the children.
§ Mr. W. J. BROWNIn view of the very strong resistance that was put up to any means test in another case, on what ground do the Government propose to apply a means test in this case?
§ Sir C. TREVELYANI am afraid that, in reply to questions, I cannot argue the matter.
§ Mr. HORE-BELISHAWill these maintenance grants be paid to the parents or the children?
§ Sir C. TREVELYANI thought it was quite obvious that they would be paid to the parents.
§ Mr. ANNESLEY SOMERVILLEAre we to understand that the size of the maintenance grant is to be at the discretion of the local education authority?
§ Sir C. TREVELYANNo. I have said that I am going to ask the representatives of the local authorities to advise as to the method of payment and the amount.
§ Mr. KINLEYWill the right hon. Gentleman inform the House as to whether the local education authorities have already accepted responsibility for the principle of this inquisition into means?
§ Sir C. TREVELYANThe representatives of the local authorities have themselves suggested that there should be some such arrangement.
§ Mr. ERNEST BROWNDo these calculations include Scotland?
§ Sir C. TREVELYANThe Secretary of State for Scotland will reply to questions relating to Scotland.
§ Mr. SHEPHERDIn his calculations, has the right hon. Gentleman considered what will be saved in unemployment benefit as a result of this step?
§ Sir C. TREVELYANThat will be a debating point.
§ Miss RATHBONEArising out of the Minister's original answer, I wish to put two questions: First, will the maintenance allowance be available only for children of from 14 to 15 years, or will it be available, at the discretion of the local authority, for younger children? Secondly, supposing two local authorities differ, one holding that a parent is in need if his means are £250 per annum, and the other that a parent is not in need unless his income is less than £100 per annum, how is it to be decided which is the right interpretation?
§ Sir C. TREVELYANI think, perhaps, it would be wiser if we left the matter until hon. Members have been able to read my reply. Both questions put by the hon. Lady are answered by that reply.
50. Dr. DAVIESasked the President of the Board of Education if he is aware that resolutions have been passed or statements made recently by the Shropshire County Education Committee, the Wiltshire Education Committee, the Dorset Education Committee and the Jarrow Education Committee to the effect that it will not be possible to carry out the raising of the school age effectively in those districts by the date fixed by him; and, seeing that this policy will result in compelling children to attend classes overcrowded and insufficiently staffed, he will consider its postponement?
§ Sir C. TREVELYANI am aware that some of these authorities have expressed a doubt as to their ability to provide a full scheme of reorganisation by April, 1931. But, as I have previously stated, I am not prepared to postpone the date on this account.
Dr. DAVIESAre we therefore to understand that the right hon. Gentleman is in favour of compelling children to attend classes that are overcrowded and insufficiently staffed?
§ Sir C. TREVELYANCertainly not. I am not prepared, because the machine may not be absolutely perfect in all cases, to defer the advantage which the raising of the school age is going to be for 400,000 children.
§ Major COLFOXIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that so far as the county of Dorset, which is mentioned in the question, is concerned, the carrying out of his proposals will mean an increase in the county rate of something between 6d. and 8d. in the £?
§ Sir C. TREVELYANI have not gone into the proposals of Dorset County yet, but I understand that they have put forward in many respects a quite satisfactory scheme.
§ Mr. BEAUMONTIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that more and more such resolutions are being passed every day?