§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 and 1929, on the application of the Halstead Gas Company, Limited, which was presented on the 4th day of November and published,
425
be approved, with the addition of the following Clause after Clause 33 of the draft Order:—
§ For protection of the Essex County Council.
§ For the protection of the county council of the administrative county of Essex (in this Section called 'the county council') the following provisions shall, unless otherwise agreed in writing between the company and the county council, apply and have effect within the limits of supply (that is to say):—
- (1) In the case of any trunk mains to be laid down by the company under the powers of this Order the company shall not permit any trench made by them in any main road vested in and maintainable by the county council to be open for a greater consecutive distance than four hundred yards, if in such length of four hundred yards there is not room throughout for two carts to pass one another, and in the case of any other main to be laid down in any such road under the powers of this Order there shall not in like circumstances be more than two hundred consecutive yards in length of trench open at any one time, and the company shall, if and when required by the county council or their surveyor, provide to the satisfaction of the county council for the regulation of traffic while any trench referred to in this Sub-section shall remain open;
- (2) In approving the plan to be delivered to the county council under Section 9 of the Gasworks Clauses Act, 1847, the county council may require that all mains and pipes of the company shall, wherever practicable, be laid in or at the side of the road, and if any main or pipe of the company shall be laid below the surface of the carriageway of any main road at a depth of less than two feet the county council shall not be liable for or in respect of any damage or injury which may be caused to such main or pipe by the use by the county council of any steam or other roller for the repair of any such road or of any traction engine belonging to the county council provided that such roller or engine does not exceed twelve tons in weight;
- (3) In the case of any main or pipe which it is reasonably necessary to lay otherwise than in the roadway over any county or main road bridge vested in the county council, the same shall be carried on the structure of any such bridge in such manner as the county council may, in writing under the hand of their surveyor, reasonably direct and, except as aforesaid, the company shall not interfere with the structural part of any county or main road bridge without the consent in writing of the surveyor of the county council, which consent shall not be unreasonably withheld;
- (4) The provisions of the Gasworks Clauses Act, 1847, with respect to the breaking-up of streets for the purpose of laying pipes as modified by this section shall, in their application to the laying of any pipe in such mails road, county or main road bridge, and the roadway over and approaches to such bridge, be read and construed as if the notice required by Section eight of that Act was not less than seven clear days instead of three clear days;
- (5) The exercise of any of the powers of the company within the limits of supply shall not interfere with, prejudice, or affect the right of the county council at any time to alter the level of or deviate or improve in any manner they think fit any main road in or along which any mains or pipes of the company shall have been laid, and the company shall, on receiving notice in writing under the hand of the clerk or surveyor of the county council so to do, alter with all reasonable dispatch the position of any such mains, pipes, or works in the manner and to the extent prescribed by such notice or as, in case of difference, shall be determined by arbitration in the manner hereinafter prescribed, and the county council shall repay to the company the expenses reasonably incurred by the company in effecting any such alteration;
- (6) The exercise of any powers of the company under this order within the limits of supply shall not prejudice or affect the right of the county council at any time to remove, alter, rebuild, widen, or repair any county or main road bridge or the approaches to any such bridge or the roadway over the same in, over, or attached to which any mains, pipes, or works of the company are carried in the same manner as the county council might have removed, altered, rebuilt, widened, or repaired such bridge, roadway, or the approaches if this order had not been made, and such mains, pipes, or works had not been so laid or attached, and the county council shall not be required to repay to the company any expense to which the company may be put by reason or in consequence of any such removal, alteration, rebuilding, widening, or reparation, but the county council shall take all reasonable precautions to prevent injury to the works of the company, and shall pay compensation for any loss which the company may sustain by reason of any such injury. In the event of any such bridge, roadway, or approaches being removed, altered, rebuilt, widened, or repaired as aforesaid the company shall at their own cost in all things alter the position of any such mains or pipes carried in, over, or attached to such bridge or approaches as aforesaid in such manner as the county council or their surveyor may reasonably direct;
- Provided that during any such removal, alteration, rebuilding, widening, or reparation the county council shall afford to the company all reasonable facilities for temporarily carrying such mains, pipes, and works across any stream or river so as not to interrupt the continuous supply of gas or to diminish the pressure of such supply through such mains or pipes, and the company may carry such mains, pipes, and works accordingly;
- (7) If the company shall after reasonable notice from the county council, under the hand of their surveyor, neglect to do or complete any work or act required by Sub-sections (5) and (6) of this section to be done by the company then and in any such case the county council may do such work or act themselves under the superintendence (if given) of the company completing the same with all reasonable expedition and in a proper and workmanlike manner, and causing as little damage or inconvenience to the company as circumstances admit, and in respect of any work or act required by Subsection (6) the company shall repay to the county council the reasonable cost of doing any such work or act;
- (8) The county council shall not execute any works under this section or enforce any of the provisions of this section so that the supply of gas by the company shall be interrupted, and if the county council so interrupt, or cause to be interrupted, the supply of gas they shall repay to the company any loss, damage, or expenses to which the company may thereby be put or become subject;
- (9) If any difference at any time arises between the county council and the company touching this section, or anything to be done or not to be done thereunder, such difference shall be settled by an arbitrator to be agreed upon between them or, failing agreement, to be appointed on the application of either party by the President of the Institution of Civil Engineers and, subject as aforesaid, the provisions of the Arbitration Act, 1889, shall apply to any such reference to arbitration as aforesaid."—[Mr. W. R. Smith.]
Commander WILLIAMSMay I have some explanation of this Gas Order? I notice that it is quite different from the ordinary Gas Orders. In fact, I should not like to comment on it, because it is so very long. I would ask particularly that we might have some explanation of paragraph (6), which provides that the exercise of any powers of the company under this Order shall not prejudice or affect the rights of the county council. That seems to me a provision that I have not read very often before.
§ Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND - TROYTEThis is a very long and complicated Order. I would particularly like to have some explanation of paragraph (2), which says that the county council shall not be liable for damage caused to pipes in certain circumstances. I should like to know whether any other unfortunate owner is to pay if he does the same?
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. W. R. Smith)In the case of this Order there were certain objections raised by the county council and the railway company. After consultation, the railway company agreed to withdraw, but the county council was not so minded, and an attempt was made to hold these points over for an inquiry to be held. That was not found to be possible, and, rather than hold the proceedings up for a longer period, it was agreed to add this paragraph. All opposition to the Order has been withdrawn.
Earl WINTERTONDoes not this paragraph (2) come to some extent in conflict with the new Road Traffic Bill before the House of Lords? Are there not provisions in that Bill regarding the damage done to roads?
§ Mr. SMITHI am afraid it is rather difficult for me to answer as to how far this Order will clash with any proposed legislation. If there is any such difficulty, that is surely a matter for legislation in this House.
Commander WILLIAMSThe hon. Member has not explained paragraph (6). May I have an explanation? I am sure the hon. Member would wish—
§ Mr. STEPHENOn a point of Order. Is the hon. and gallant Member for Torquay (Commander Williams) in order in speaking twice on the one question?
§ Mr. SPEAKERHe is only asking a question.
Commander WILLIAMSI am trying to ask the question in such a way that the Minister may have time to get the answer. If he has got it now, I will come to the end of the question. If, on the other hand, he has not got it, I will amplify my question so as to be still in order. But I conclude, as he has returned to his seat, that he has got an answer. Of course, if he would like me 429 to amplify my question, so that he can consider his answer, then I am prepared to do so.
§ Mr. SMITHIt is impossible for me to give a detailed explanation. As all opposition has been withdrawn to the Order, it is not unusual that it should be placed on the Paper to be dealt with in the way that we are asking, and I think it is usual, if points are to be raised, for information to be given in advance in order to enable the necessary inquiries to be made to answer the points. I can only repeat that the whole position now is agreed between the contending parties concerned in this matter.
§ Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTEIt is surely unusual for a Minister to come
§ down with a long Order like this and not know a single word of it.
§ Lord E. PERCYI perhaps have not been in this House a very long time, but I have never before heard such an excuse made by any Minister. The fact that a notice of this sort is put on the Paper is entirely the business of the Government. When has it even been ruled before that notice should be given in advance of any questions that may be put about an Order on the Paper? In view of the extraordinary statement which we have heard, I think we must press the Government to postpone this Order until we can discuss it.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided: Ayes, 116; Noes, 46.
431| Division No. 89.] | AYES. | [12.42 a.m. |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. | Raynes, W. R. |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') | Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. | Ritson, J. |
| Arnott, John | Kelly, W. T. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) |
| Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Romeril, H. G. |
| Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) | Lathan, G. | Rosbotham, D. S. T. |
| Bellamy, Albert | Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) | Scurr, John |
| Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood | Lawson, John James | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Bennett, William (Battersea, South) | Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Bentham, Dr. Ethel | Lees, J. | Shiels, Dr. Drummond |
| Bowen, J. W. | Lewis, T. (Southampton) | Shillaker, J. F. |
| Buchanan, G. | Lindley, Fred W. | Simmons, C. J. |
| Caine, Derwent Hall- | Longbottom, A. W. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Chater, Daniel | Longden, F. | Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) |
| Church, Major A. G. | McEntee, V. L. | Smith, Tom (Pontefract) |
| Clarke, J. S. | Mackinder, W. | Smith, W. R. (Norwich) |
| Cluse, W. S. | McKinlay, A. | Sorensen, R. |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | McShane, John James | Stephen, Campbell |
| Compton, Joseph | Marley, J. | Strachey, E. J. St. Loe |
| Daggar, George | Mathers, George | Sullivan, J. |
| Dallas, George | Matters, L. W. | Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Maxton, James | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Dickson, T. | Melville, Sir James | Toole, Joseph |
| Duncan, Charles | Middleton, G. | Tout, W. J. |
| Ede, James Chuter | Mills, J. E. | Vaughan, D. J. |
| Edmunds, J. E. | Milner, J. | Walker, J. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Morgan, Dr. H. B. | Wallace, H. W. |
| Gill, T. H. | Morley, Ralph | Watkins, F. C. |
| Gossling, A. G. | Mort, D. L. | Watts-Morgan. Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne). | Moses, J. J. H. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Muggeridge, H. T. | Welsh, James (Paisley) |
| Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) | Noel Baker, P. J. | Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) |
| Haycock, A. W. | Oldfield, J. R. | Whiteley, William (Blaydon) |
| Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.) | Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) | Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) | Wilson R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) | Paling, Wilfrid | Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh) |
| Hoffman, P. C. | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Wise, E. F. |
| Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Young, R. S. (Islington, North) |
| John, William (Rhondda, West) | Potts, John S. | |
| Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint) | Ramsay, T. B. Wilson | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Hayes. | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Burgin, Dr. E. L. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. |
| Albery, Irving James | Butler, R. A. | Glassey, A. E. |
| Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.) | Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) |
| Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W. | Colville, Major D. J. | Greene, W. P. Crawford |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) |
| Beaumont, M. W. | Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) | Gunston, Captain D. W. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Duckworth, G. A. V. | Hartington, Marquess of |
| Boyce, H. L. | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. |
| Bracken, B. | Fison, F. G. Clavering | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Lamb, Sir J. Q. | Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Margesson, Captain H. D. | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) | Womersley, W. J. |
| Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. | Smithers, Waldron | |
| Mond, Hon. Henry | Southby, Commander A. R. J. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. | Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) | Captain Sir George Bowyer and |
| Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of | Captain Euan Wallace. |
| Muirhead, A. J. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
Question put, and agreed to.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 and 1929, on the application of the Watford Gas and Coke Company, which was presented on the 19th day of November and published, be approved."—[Mr. W. R. Smith.]
Commander WILLIAMSAs far as this Order is concerned, I know the Minister is sublimely innocent, so I shall not press for details to-night. I have no desire to be personally rude to him, but, knowing that these Gas Orders always have been criticised, it is amazing to me that he did not know about 432 the first Order. In future, I feel sure that he will come prepared with all the details.
§ The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
§ It being after half-past Eleven of the clock upon Tuesday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
§ Adjourned at Ten Minutes before One o'Clock.