HC Deb 29 April 1929 vol 227 cc1340-6

Considered in Committee.

[Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Mode of forming incorporated company.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER

May I say that the Opposition are very anxious that this Measure should pass, and what I am going to say is not intended as obstruction? As a matter of fact, we want to see a Bill passed which will be in the interests of industry generally, and bring into operation a number of important Amendments, to the law which were enacted last year. In dealing with the first Clause it is very inconvenient for the Members of the Committee to have to deal with a Measure containing 385 Clauses without having a copy of the report of the Joint Committee available. It is not as though we were simply dealing with an ordinary Consolidation Act, because there are also quite a large number of Clauses dealing with existing statutes. While I wish to express my thanks for this Measure, I wish to say that the number of advance copies of the Bill has been quite inadequate for the number of hon. Members interested in this Measure, and we are going to pass this Bill without having the opportunity of examining the large number of detailed alterations which have been in- serted in another place on the recommendation of the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills. I ask that the Government should not in future allow a Bill of this kind to come to the Committee stage until the House has been properly informed of the actual position. I acknowledge my indebtedness to those who have prepared this Bill, but I should have appreciated it much more if I had had a copy of the Bill a week ago, in order that I might have had an opportunity of examining its details. I do not oppose the taking of the further stages of the Committee to-day, but I hope what has been done in this case will not be taken as a precedent.

Mr. H. WILLIAMS

I am very grateful to the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) for the attitude he has taken up. I realise that there is a grievance because the Report of the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills has not been printed, and is not available to all the Members of the House. I believe the hon. Member for Hills-borough has had a chance of reading an advance copy of that Report, which I have not seen, but I would like to remind the House that the Lord Chancellor reported that the Joint Committee had presented a unanimous Report, in which they informed their Lordships that it was pure consolidation, and urged that it should be passed into law during the present Session. As the Bill is pure consolidation, I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Hillsborough is not going to oppose the further stages of this Measure.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clauses 2 to 91, inclusive, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Clauses 92 to 155 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. ALEXANDER

I am very loath, Sir Dennis, to interrupt the record speed-making which you are achieving, but I want to draw attention to the fact that, although there is no fundamental alteration in the Clauses—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

To what particular Clause is the hon. Member referring?

Mr. ALEXANDER

I am speaking to the Motion that you put from the Chair, "That Clauses 92 to 155 stand part of the Bill." I think that that was the Question which you put to the Committee, and that, in the circumstances, I am not called upon to mention the particular Clause to which I am addressing myself.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I think that, for the sake of order, I must ask the hon. Member to speak to a particular Clause. I was putting the Clauses, for the sake of convenience, in blocks, but, if the hon. Member wishes me to stop at any particular Clause, in order that he may discuss it, I will do so.

Mr. ALEXANDER

Your reply, Sir Dennis, is devastating to me. You have now gone away from the general proposition that this whole range of Clauses should be ordered to stand part of the Bill in one Motion, and, therefore, it is not possible for me to remain in order and speak upon the general point that I wished to raise. I do not wish to speak to a particular Clause, but to address myself to a block of Clauses which is included in the Motion put from the Chair, and which is headed "Accounts and Audit." If you say that I am unable to do that, I do not propose to raise any further point.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

If the hon. Member really wants to say something on a particular Clause which is a proper subject for discussion in Committee, I have no wish, and it would not be right for me, to shut him out from doing so. I was only putting the Clauses in blocks for convenience, and I will stop at any particular one if desired.

Mr. ALEXANDER

If you would be so kind as to put Clause 122 separately, I could make the point that I want to make upon that Clause.

Question, "That Clauses 92 to 121 stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 122.—(Accounts.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Mr. ALEXANDER

On this Clause I want to raise a question now, so that the Parliamentary Secretary can consider it before we come to the last Clause in the Bill, dealing with the Short Title and Commencement. Clause 122 of the Bill deals with accounts, and the law on this matter has, of course, been amended by the provisions of the Act of 1928. It is exceedingly important, in our judgment, that shareholders and members of the public should receive such additional protection as is afforded by the Act of 1928 as early as possible, but the date of the coming into operation of these amending provisions has not yet been fixed. We on this side are very disappointed that the additional safeguards for the public and for shareholders are not wider and more binding than those which have been secured in the legislation of 1928, but, even though they have not been as great as we could desire, we are anxious that what has been done should be put into operation as early as possible. I take this opportunity, therefore, of asking that we may have as specific a statement as possible, before the end of the Committee stage of the Bill, as to when these provisions are likely to come into operation.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clauses 123 to 352, inclusive, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 353.—(Obligation of company incorporated in Channel Islands or Isle of Man to deliver documents to registrar.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Mr. KELLY

I should like to ask whether or not the Parliaments in the Channel Islands and the House of Keys in the Isle of Man have been consulted with regard to this Clause. I find that there is a great habit in the House of Commons of mentioning these two places without any consultation with the people there, despite the fact that they are considered to have their own Parliaments.

Mr. H. WILLIAMS

This Clause has nothing to do with the question of the jurisdiction of those parts of the British Empire. It merely lays down what companies registered under the Parliaments of those parts of the Empire, and carrying on business shall do here. We are not in any way interfering with the measure of sovereign rights which is enjoyed by those parts of the British Empire.

Sir HENRY SLESSER

As a member of the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills, I can assure my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) that this Clause does no more than repeat a Section of the Act of 1928, and, therefore, if the necessity for consultation arose, it arose when that Act was being passed.

Mr. KELLY

I agree that that was the time when consultation should take place, but, even if it were omitted then, it should not be omitted on other occasions when there is a necessity for consultation.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clauses 354 to 384, inclusive, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 385.—(Short title and commencement.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Mr. H. WILLIAMS

With regard to the request of the hon. Member for Hills-borough (Mr. Alexander), it is a little difficult to state definitely at this moment when the Order in Council will be made with regard to bringing this Bill into operation. The hon. Member will realise that under some Clauses a number of Rules will have to be made, and people outside who have to study Acts of Parliament like this must have sufficient time for their study, while no doubt certain people will desire to write books about the Act. We have, therefore, to give them sufficient time. Without in any way committing the Department, I would suggest that possibly the 1st November might be an appropriate date for the bringing into operation of those Clauses of the Act which are not already in operation. There are, I think, two in operation already. Of course, I cannot give a definite undertaking that the date shall be the 1st November. There is always the chance that an earlier date may be possible, but we shall have to find out how long it will take to make the necessary preparations.

Mr. ALEXANDER

I am much obliged to the Parliamentary Secretary for his statement, which has gone a long way to meet my object. I was very much afraid that, unless we could say that here today preliminary notice had been given to the people concerned with the administration of the Companies Act of 1928, that its main provisions would come into operation next year, there would have been a further reason for delay in the new Parliament, no matter which party happens to be in office. I think the question of writing a book of exposition of the provisions of the Act is really beside the point. This Clause itself says: This Act shall come into operation on the first day on which, by virtue of orders made by His Majesty in Council under Subsection (4) of Section one hundred and eighteen of the Companies Act, 1928, all the provisions of that Act will be in operation. I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary, in view of what he has said, whether he would accept a manuscript Amendment, if it were handed in and moved now, that, after—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I think, from the hon. Member's remarks, that that would be going beyond the Clause which is now before the Committee. Apparently, he is discussing now an Act of Parliament which has already been passed, and which is referred to in the words of this Clause. I think he will see that that is a matter which cannot be dealt with under this Clause.

Mr. ALEXANDER

With great respect, I submit to you, Sir Dennis, that we must have some regard to the discussions in the House on this general question. When the Companies Bill was first introduced last year by the President of the Board of Trade, he said that it would not be advisable to operate the Clauses of that Bill until the general law had been consolidated. Then we were told that a Consolidation Bill would be prepared—this is the Bill—and that the amending provisions of the Act of 1928 would be put into operation as early as possible after the passing of the Consolidation Bill. Now we find that this Clause is drawn in such a way that the Bill will not come into operation until the Orders in Council, under the Section of the 1928 Act dealing with the Short Title and Commencement, are made by His Majesty. What we are asking on this Clause is, either that we should receive a very definite assurance that the date fixed by the Orders in Council under the Act quoted in this Clause shall be an early one, or, alternatively, that you should allow an Amendment which will fix the last day on which those Orders shall come into operation.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

While the hon. Member was reasonably entitled to ask when it was intended that this Bill, when ii becomes an Act, should come into operation, the answer to that question depends upon an Act of Parliament the terms of which we cannot discuss in this Committee. As regards proposing any manuscript Amendment at the present time, I am afraid that the hon. Member has missed his chance; the Question before the Committee is, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Question put, and agreed to.

Schedules agreed to.

Bill reported, without Amendment.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

Mr. WILLIAMS

I wish to thank the hon. Gentleman opposite and his colleagues for their assistance to-day in getting through the Committee stage.

Mr. ALEXANDER

I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman. It is only because of our extreme anxiety that the Bill should not be missed in the list of those that receive the Royal Assent in this Session of Parliament that we have taken this course. We are rather concerned that the consideration of so important a Bill should have had to be so rushed as it has been. We hope it will not be a precedent?

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.