HC Deb 26 April 1929 vol 227 cc1260-71

Lords Amendment: In page 74, line 10, at the end, insert: (4.) The Explosives Acts, 1875 to 1928.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[Sir J. Gilmour.]

Mr. WESTWOOD

I would like an explanation of this Amendment. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, this has nothing to do with general health administration, but is simply designed to take the administration of certain Acts out of the hands of the burghs, some of which are fairly large burghs. The Convention of Royal Burghs has circularised every Scottish Member of this House asking that these powers shall remain in the hands of the burghs, and not be handed over to the newly constituted authorities, and I think we are entitled to an explanation of this Amendment.

Sir J. GILMOUR

I may explain that the functions under the Explosives Acts and also under the Petroleum (Consolidation) Act, 1928, except Section 11, which is referred to in the next Amendment on the Paper, are administered by the police, and these areas are in future to have an independent police force. There is no financial question involved, as the amounts received and expended under these Acts are very trivial. Section 11 of the Petroleum (Consolidation) Act is an amenity provision, which should properly remain with the small burghs, and is, therefore, exempted from transfer, but I think that, on consideration, hon. Members will agree that this is a wise provision.

Question put, and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 79, line 18, agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 80, line 4, at the end, insert the following Schedule:

"MAXIMUM RATES OF ALLOWANCES IN RESPECT OF TRAVELLING AND OTHER PERSONAL EXPENSES NECESSARILY INCURRED AND TIME NECESSARILY LOST FROM ORDINARY EMPLOY-MENT BY MEMBERS OF A COUNTY COUNCIL OR OF ANY COMMITTEE OR SUB-COMMITTEE THEREOF IN ATTENDING MEETINGS.

I.—Travelling Expenses.

A sum representing the amount of third-class railway fare or first-class steamer fare between the place of meeting and the ordinary place of residence of the member of the council, committee or sub-committee. In so far as there is no railway service but a public service by some other means of transport is available the amount of the fare by such other means of transport and in so far as there is no railway or other public means of transport the cost of a hired conveyance if such cost is approved by the council.

II.—Other Personal Expenses.

(a) When attendance at the meeting has entailed absence from the ordinary place of residence of the member of not less than four hours, the sum of three shillings and fourpence.

(b) Where such attendance has entailed an absence from the ordinary place of residence of the member of not less than eight hours, the sum of six shillings and eightpence.

(c) Where such attendance has entailed one or more nights of absence from the ordinary place of residence of the member, the sum of one pound for each night necessarily spent away from home. Each such payment of one pound shall cover a period of twenty-four hours and paragraph (a) or (b), as the case may be, shall apply in the case of any further period of absence of less than twenty-four hours.

III.—Time necessarily lost from ordinary employment.

The sum of seven shillings and sixpence for each half day and the sum of fifteen shillings for each full day necessarily so lost."

Mr. SPEAKER

This Amendment raises a question of Privilege, as it increases the maximum rates of allowances.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[Sir J. Gilmour.]

Mr. WESTWOOD

May I ask the Secretary of State for Scotland to give us some further explanation as to this Amendment? I know that it is partially consequential on an Amendment we have already accepted from another place, but in the past the power to pay travelling expenses and certain allowances was given to the education authorities. That will now be extended to the new county councils. Under the power which was given to the education authorities previously by a Minute of the Department, they could either increase or decrease, as the case might be, those payments made to Members who suffered a loss of employment. They could also increase or decrease, as they thought fit, the amount of maintenance grants to those Members who were more than four or eight hours away from their homes. There was a second provision arising out of another Minute from the Department, which allowed not only payment of travelling expenses from the permanent place of residence, but also from the temporary place of residence. In the Amendment before us there are the words "ordinary place of residence." I am anxious to know whether the "ordinary place of residence" would allow of the new county councils paying on the same basis as the existing education authorities have been paying, namely, not only from the permanent place of residence but also from the temporary place of residence—a concession which was granted by the Education Department mainly, I think, owing to my own arguments and the case which I was able to submit to the Department at that time.

If the word "maximum" had not been in the Amendment, I understand that there would have been no objection, because we believe that certain of the new county councils will agree that the figures represented here will be paid. But we know that there are some miserable county councils—miserable in every respect—who, merely because the word "maximum" is inserted, may seek to pay nothing at all. If I can get an assurance on this point, it might possibly clear away the doubt in some of our minds. Speaking as a Member of this party, and, I believe, for my colleagues here, I say that we would prefer to see a definite figure fixed, unless we can have the assurance that county councils are not going to get out of their moral obligations merely because of some legal quibble arising out of this Amendment. Having had some experience in connection with this business, I can speak of some of the hardships in giving service when no provision has been made for working men being paid. I resent very much some of the innuendoes which have been thrown out in another place by one of the late Secretaries for Scotland, an individual we had to fight bitterly in the county of Fife, and in the town of Kirkcaldy. We resent very much some of the innuendoes thrown out by that Noble Lord in another place, and I only wish he had been here to face the accusation.

Mr. SPEAKER

The hon. Member is not in order in referring to speeches made in another place in the way in which he is doing.

Mr. WESTWOOD

I am sorry if I transgressed the Rules of the House, but I meant to say it, and I am glad I have said it;

Sir J. GILMOUR

I think I can reassure the hon. Gentleman opposite upon the points which he has raised. I am aware, of course, of the representations which the hon. Gentleman made to the Education Department upon the subject. We thought, as I think he agreed, that it was infinitely better to avoid all dubiety upon this subject by placing this Schedule in the body of the Bill, and we have taken absolutely in all respects the conditions which appertain to this matter in dealing with payment from the last regulation issued by the Department for which I am responsible dealing with these matters of education, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that, having gone into this matter very carefully, having been advised both by the officials of my Education Department and by the Law Officers, that in fact we are putting into effect the actual conditions which have existed in Scotland. That was the pledge which I gave to the House in the original case, and I understand as far as I am concerned, it has been very largely carried out.

Mr. SHINWELL

I think the right hon. Gentleman is correct in saying that he has implemented his promise to the House in this matter, and I merely wish to ask a question for the purpose of elucidating a point. If the right hon. Gentleman will turn his attention to the heading of the Amendment, he will see that members of a county council or of any committee or sub-committee thereof in attending meetings. are to be compensated. I ask him whether the members of district councils come within the scope of this provision?

Sir J. GILMOUR

No, Sir.

Mr. SHINWELL

It seems to me that there is a difficulty, because, strictly speaking, a district council is a sub-committee of a county council. They are elected bodies, I know, but many of the functions of the county council are to be transferred, temporarily at all events, within the power of the county council, to district committees, and I should have thought that a member would have been remunerated precisely in the way that a member of a county council or any committee of a county council would be. There is this point, in addition. Members of district councils lose time and are not to be compensated, whereas members of county councils, who lose exactly the same amount of time, no better and no worse than members of district councils, are to be compensated. I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that that is an anomaly. It may be impossible to avoid anomalies altogether in connection with this matter, but I think the right hon. Gentleman might give an assurance that where a member of a district council is losing wages, he ought at least to be compensated precisely in the same way as a member of a county council.

Sir J. GILMOUR

I must make it quite clear that this does not apply to the district council in any sense. It applies to the county council, and to those representatives of the burghs who attend this council, and it would be impossible at this time to alter it.

Mr. W. M. WATSON

It will surprise many in Scotland to know that, while these expenses may be paid to members of the county council attending meetings of that council, they are not to be paid for any loss of time or any expenses for attending meetings of the district council. The district council will be largely composed of members of the county council, and the only other members of the district council will be those elected either from parishes or from wards of parishes. When it is found that members of the county council will be compensated for any loss that they may sustain in attending meetings of that council, and no compensation is to be paid for attending meetings of the district council, there will be surprise and great indignation in Scotland. As soon as this is known, if county councillors attach any importance to travelling expenses or expenses for personal loss, the tendency will be to put as much work in the hands of the county council as they possibly can, and to refuse to give the district council the work that we had expected this council would be asked to do under this Bill. We were expecting and hoping that a large part of the work of the county council would be delegated to the district council, and if district councillors are not to be paid for their expenses, the tendency will be to keep as much work in the county council as possible.

Those who have been considering this matter are of opinion that county councillors who are serving on the district council will be simply looked upon as members of a sub-committee of the county council. In truth, that is exactly what members of the district council will be, and they will be surprised when they read an Act of Parliament which says that members attending meetings of the county council may be paid, but members attending a sub-committee of the county council cannot be paid. Here is the most important sub-committee of the county council—meeting in a different place it is true—and no expenses are to be paid in their case. I am certain that as soon as the district council is set up, the right hon. Gentleman will have representations made to him to amend this Bill. I can understand the position of the right hon. Gentleman with regard to the burgh council, for in their case little has to be paid by way of travelling expenses, and the meetings are usually held at the time when no loss of work is entailed. But I want to point out to the right hon. Gentleman that the district committee of the county council is the corresponding body to the new district council which is to be set up, and that the men who have been attending the meetings of the district committee of the county council have had to pay a great deal in travelling expenses, and have lost work; and the same thing will take place when the district council is set up. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider the matter, and will agree that this new district council is going to be looked upon as a sub-committee of the county council, and not as a separate body. It will be a most important sub-committee of the county council, and men who are attending its meetings are as much entitled to their expenses as the county councillors.

Mr. HARDIE

I must press the right hon. Gentleman to give some reply to the case that has been stated. I recall the afternoon similar to this when the question first came up, and when the promise was given. I can recall also the chagrin with which the English Members viewed the concession which was given, and I am beginning to see that that chagrin has been working to try and make what was then promised as of little value as possible. I hope that the Secretary of State for Scotland will not be at any time subject to the English Members of his own party. As Secretary of State, he is the chief representative for Scotland, but I am suspicious that there has been pressure brought upon him by English Members; and I hope that he will understand that, if he need any assistance to resist that pressure, he can depend upon us. We have discussed on another Clause the question of dignity in regard to certain officers. Let us take the question of dignity as between county Councillors and district councillors. Where is the actual detailed work going to be done? Where is that class of work which demands constant contact with detail, and constant knowledge of detail in the district, going to be done? On whom is the bulk of the real administration going to fall?

Mr. SPEAKER

The hon. Member for Dunfermline (Mr. W. M. Watson) raised this question rather as a comparison with what is proposed in this particular Amendment, but it really would not be in order, or relevant on this particular Amendment, to discuss on its merits the payment of other types of councillors. The object of the Amendment is to increase the charge by altering the maximum rates of allowances, and the people to whom it is paid are strictly regulated by Clause 7 of the Bill. It would be out of order to make suggestions for the payment of other councillors.

Mr. SHINWELL

On a point of Order. This is very important. May I ask, Sir, whether you will give a ruling, if the right hon. Gentleman himself cannot elucidate the point, as to what is meant by the heading which refers to payments to members of a county council or any committee or sub-committee thereof. If a ruling is given as to who this applies to, then we need not pursue the point. The whole question is one of interpretation.

Mr. SPEAKER

If the hon. Member will refer to Clause 17, Sub-section (1), he will see that it states there: Members of a council or of any committee or sub-committee thereof attending meetings of such council, committee or subcommittee.

Mr. WESTWOOD

May I point out that this discussion would not have arisen but for an interpretation of Clause 17 given by the Secretary of State for Scotland, who, in answer to the hon. Member for Dunfermline Burghs (Mr. W. M. Watson), or to a point which I myself had raised, emphasised the point that district councils would not be committees or sub-committees of the county council. The discussion has arisen out of that interpretation.

Sir J. GILMOUR

I have no doubt at all in my own mind that that is the correct interpretation, and it is the purpose of the Bill.

Mr. SHINWELL

Then may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in the event of members of a county council being deputed to undertake work on a district council, they will be entitled to compensation. I am not putting the major point of whether members of district councils as such should be compensated, but whether members, when delegated by the county council, will be regarded as members of a committee of the county council or as members of the county council. [Interruption.] If the right hon. Gentleman does not accept that view, I put the point to him again in this way. If a member of the county council is entitled to compensation, clearly he is entitled to such compensation no matter what functions he is undertaking on behalf of the county council, and therefore when he is present at a meeting of the district council he is still a member of the county council and is entitled to be compensated. Does not the Lord Advocate accept that view?

Sir J. GILMOUR

I think I am correct in saying this. If a county council appoints a committee or a sub-committee for definite purposes of its own, that is covered by the provisions of the Bill. The question of the district council is a totally different matter. The district council is a body meeting within its own local area, and there has not at any time been any question of making payment to such a body. It is quite true that the central body may, if it sees fit, transfer certain detailed work to be done by some of these district bodies, but the district councils have certain definite duties in their own districts totally apart from the central bodies, duties which they carry out in their own areas. There can be no question that there is any dubiety that this extension of payment was definitely and deliberately restricted to the larger county authorities, and it must rest at that.

Mr. WESTWOOD

Is it not a fact that we have transferred from the Education Act the power to make payments to members of a county council? Is it not true that under the Education Act the education authority not only allowed payments to be made to members of education authorities as such, but that where those members of education authorities were appointed to act on school manage- ment committees, they were entitled to compensation if they lost work through attending those committees? If that is not the case I shall have to refund some money, because I have been paid in that way in the past.

3.0 p.m.

Mr. HARDIE

The point to which I was drawing attention was emphasised by the statement just made by the Secretary of State for Scotland. He alluded to the district councils and detailed work. If we had been dealing with two separate bodies there would have been no necessity for me to introduce this question, but the district council has no being outside the county council. The district council is subject in much of what it has to do to the county council. If I were desirous of delaying the House I could ask the Secretary of State to explain the duties of the county council and the duties of the district council, but I do not want unnecessarily to waste time. But I want it to be recognised that it is not correct to speak of their performing two separate and distinct classes of work, because their duty is dove-tailed. Had it not been for the Amendment accepted from this side during the discussion on the Bill there would have been no district councils at all, proving conclusively that the original intention was that the whole of the work should be undertaken by the county councils. This is part of the work of the county council, and though the position may seem to be complicated by the bringing in of district councils no one can argue that it is not the work of the county council that is being carried out. Members of the county councils can take part in the work of the district councils. Is not such a member performing county council work when he is on the district council? He may be a member of a committee on the county council which is responsible for delegating certain things to the district council. Possibly he will be a member of that district council ex officio. That is contemplated under the Bill. In Clause 25, Sub-section (2), it states: There shall be established for every district a district council which shall consist of the number of members specified in the district council scheme. The members of the county council for the electoral divisions within the district shall be ex officio members of the district council and the other members of the district council shall be elected for the electoral divisions within the district or for wards forming part thereof as may be provided in the scheme." I think that is quite clear, and that the distinction between the work done on the county council and on the district council is so fine that you could not insert a thin sheet of paper between the two categories. The work is the same, and on the day the promise was given to us we all thought., and I am sure it was what the Secretary of State had in his mind, that it would be treated according to the custom then prevailing. We have heard from the hon. Member for Peebles (Mr. Westwood) what his payment consisted of, and on the day when we got that concession we understood that the common practice then existing was to be followed. Now we get the other House coming in to interfere with this custom. This interference takes place, not in the early stages of the discussion on the Bill, but at the last possible moment when the Bill can be discussed. In view of this interference with custom, we feel that the Secretary of State should put more iron into his back, if not into his soul, and tell those in the other place that we are not going to accept such dictation at the last moment.

Mr. SPEAKER

I must point out that this Amendment does not do anything more than add to the maximum rates. It does not make any alteration in their scope.

Mr. HARDIE

But it excludes payment for loss of time.

Mr. SPEAKER

This Amendment would increase the charge by altering the maximum rate of allowance.

Mr. HARDIE

But it excludes loss of time, as has been pointed out by the hon. Member for Peebles (Mr. Westwood). This Bill is doing great damage to Scotland in a great many ways, and I hope the Secretary of State for Scotland will preserve the right that democratically-elected representatatives should be paid for doing public work. If we do not get this right conceded the democracy will be left in the lurch and only the rich will be able to carry on public work.

Question put, and agreed to.

Mr. SPEAKER

I will cause a special entry to be made in the Journals of the House with regard to the question of Privilege.

Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 88, line 11, agreed to.