HC Deb 23 May 1928 vol 217 cc2004-11
Mr. KELLY

I beg to move to leave out the Clause.

I notice that the Parliamentary Secretary smiles, and I suppose he imagines that we are not serious in moving this Amendment. I can assure him that a very large number of people in the country feel very keenly the position they are in; a position which has not been dealt with by this Bill. There are a number of people who, it is stated, have no employer, but who have a great number of employers, and because the Government find it difficult to locate the particular employer who should be called upon to pay the contributions they keep these people out of insurance. I am referring to those who are engaged in the distributive trades in a small way, and whose income from this calling, industry or trade is much lower than the limit of £250. I ask whether it is possible to make sonic provision which will enable these people to come within the Insurance Act.

The men and women who have had to leave industry, where they had to clock in and out or register in the books of the industry, and who have taken on small jobs in order to gain a livelihood, suffer a great hardship. The hardship is felt all the more keenly when these people have made endeavours to come under the pensions scheme. That hardship will become more acute as the years pass by. I would call attention particularly to the men who are engaged in such work as house repairing, who are doing what is called jobbing work and making a very few shillings per week in many cases; men who are engaged in tailoring repairs, and those occupied in many small businesses that one could enumerate. Why is it that these people are not brought under the Bill? The Clause refers to those who perform labour and have an employer. I know there will be some difficulty in finding out any one employer of people belonging to the classes I have enumerated, but surely they should not be excluded from the benefits of the Act. I hope that something may be done in order to bring them within the four corners of the Act.

Mr. WHITELEY

I beg to second the Amendment.

We are anxious to get as many people as possible brought within the scope of this Clause. We appreciate the fact that the Clause is really an extension of insurance, in that it is including a lot of people who were excluded before. But there are many people to-day, in addition to those to whom reference has been made, who ought to be considered by the Minister with a view to their being brought within the ambit of the Clause. There are the small shopkeepers and other business people who ought to be included. I know of many people who some years ago became unemployed and who, when they realised that it was impossible for them to secure work in their old callings, used, the money they had in order to start businesses. Owing to the long period of unemployment, in this country they have had considerable difficulty in making ends meet. They are really their own employers and are unfortunately in the position that they are cut off from the contributory pensions scheme, old age pensions, and that kind of thing. I ask that the Minister should take the cases of these people into consideration, with a view to including them in some of the special Orders that he issues, so that they may have the advantage of the benefits which this Measure seeks to give to people who were previously excluded. There are quite a lot of people on the borderline who also ought to have some consideration. I am hoping that as a result of this discussion we will get some assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that he and the Minister of Health will take this question into consideration in any future Regulations that they may make.

Sir K. WOOD

I am sure that the House generally will have considerable sympathy with the object of the Mover and the Seconder of this Amendment, in calling attention to the needs of the people whom they have mentioned. Certainly this Clause is a very considerable step forward in insurance. In accordance with the recommendation of the Royal Commission, certain classes of manual workers whose position is analogous to that of wage earners but who could not be brought within the ordinary tests of a legal contract of service, have now been brought in for the first time. Some of the classes which will be covered for national health insurance and other purposes for the first time include people like hay cutters working at piece rates, people working for timber merchants and forage merchants; stonebreakers and quarrymen; sub-contractors in building and various other trades; certain agricultural workers, such as hedgers, ditchers, drainers and thatchers; porters in wholesale fish, meat and vegetable markets; slaughtermen and men of that kind. To that extent I think the Clause must receive the commendation of the House. Everyone knows the difficulty of endeavouring to bring in an extensive class of people. One is immediately confronted with the whole structure of national insurance, and the fact that the scheme is based on certain defined principles, such as a contract of service. It has required a good deal of ingenuity to bring in these additional classes of men, especially the share fishermen whose case we have already been considering this afternoon.

We certainly have made a considerable advance. Now the hon. Members quite rightly bring forward the cases of a number of people who, in my judgment, are well worth the consideration of this House but get very little attention from it. They are very largely what we might call middle class people, who have to bear considerable burdens and certainly do not get the advantages that are open to many other people. I wish very much that it was possible to bring within the scheme the small shopkeeper and people of that type, so that they could gain not only the benefits of the National Insurance scheme but, what is more important to them, the very considerable benefits of the Contributory Pensions scheme. I wish that I could hold out to the House the hope that we had such a plan. All I can say is that I know my right hon. Friend and myself would be very desirous, if we could find a practical plan which would not unduly burden the national Exchequer, to make these considerable benefits available to that particular class of people. We shall certainly keep this matter constantly before us, and if our advisers, or any hon. Gentlemen opposite, with the assistance of the administrators of their large societies, can put any practical plan before us, subject to the limitations I have expressed, I need hardly say that it will have our most careful and sympathetic attention. At any rate to-night we are taking in this Clause a very considerable step forward, and everyone will be glad to know that the large classes of people I have enumerated, and particularly the share fishermen, will be brought under the scheme for the first time. I hope that my hon. Friends opposite will be satisfied with these observations.

Mr. STEPHEN

Speaking on behalf of one of the classes now to be included in the National Health Insurance scheme I would like to say a few words. When the Contributory Pensions Act was before the House of Commons, I pressed very strongly on the Minister the claims of men employed in slaughterhouses and I am glad that it has now been found possible to make this concession to them. I appreciate also what the right hon. Gentleman has said in regard to the small shopkeeping class and I suggest that he should not, even yet, despair of including them in this Measure. I would like him between this stage and the consideration of the Bill in another place, to consider whether it would not be possible to make some concession to these people. Members of all parties are interested in this matter, and it is surely not beyond the imgenuity of the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary to devise some method of providing for them under this Measure. I appreciate the fact that some of my own constituents are now getting what they have long fought for and I have pleasure in congratulating the Minister, for once, on what is, I think, a real improvement.

Mr. BUCHANAN

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned several classes of workers who were to be included under this Clause. I wish to raise the question of a class of workers who seem to be left out of consideration, and I do not know if, on the spur of the moment, the right hon. Gentleman can tell me anything about their position in connection with this Clause. They are men in Glasgow who sell coal. They are workmen working for an employer, but they are placed in charge of lorries and go about selling the coal on commission and not getting any other wages. So far, they have been cut out of the benefits of the Contributory Pensions Act, on the ground that they are employed on commission. Such a man, however, has a definite employer and works for the same employer year in and year out, and performs manual work of an extremely hard kind. Will these men now be included under the provisions of Clause 19?

Sir K. WOOD

I will certainly make inquiries as to the point raised by the hon. Member, but I think the best procedure would be if he would send me a specific case of one of these men and treat it as a test matter under this Measure directly the Act comes into force. The matter could then be settled as regards the whole class of men concerned.

Mr. BUCHANAN

My difficulty is that I cannot send a case. I have to deal with the Scottish Office. Already under the old Act, there was a test case in Edinburgh. I make no complaints about the procedure, but we were ruled out on the ground that although the man was employed by one employer, he received commission. I think the right hon. Gentleman ought to find out if these men are now included, because they are manual workers employed by definite employers.

Sir K. WOOD

I will consult with the Department and see if it is possible to make some communication to the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. KELLY

In view of the reply of the right hon. Gentleman that it is his intention to keep the case of the particular classes of men and women to whom we have referred in sight, and to endeavour to do something far them, I beg to leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir K. WOOD

I beg to move, in page 20, line 28, after the word "may," to insert the words (a) modify in the case of persons so employed, or any class of such persons specified in the order, the provisions of this Act restricting the right of deducting or otherwise recovering the employer's contribution; (b). This is one of the Amendments to deal with the case of the share fishermen to which reference has been made.

Mr. PILCHER

In view of the fact that this Amendment is intended largely to meet the case of the Cornish inshore fishermen, I think it will be appropriate if I express appreciation of the efforts of my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary and of both the Departments interested to meet an exceptionally difficult case. When the announcement was made last summer that there would be an effort to bring part-share fishermen into the Health Insurance scheme, no one rejoiced more heartily than I did. I have one fairly good reason, of a party kind, for rejoicing, because my right hon. Friend the Member for West Swansea (Mr. Runciman), who has a Cornish interest, and who was in the county at that time, rather criticised the fact that the fishermen had been so long left out of the Act—forgetting, apparently, that the original Act was passed by a Government of which he was a member. I have, however, much more solid reasons than that for being grateful to find that an effort is being made to bring in the fishermen.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

These observations seem to apply to the Clause rather than to the Amendment.

Mr. PILCHER

I come at once to the Amendment. One's satisfaction at the attempt to include the part-share fishermen was a little mitigated by the Bill in its original state, and, particularly, this Clause in its original state. As originally drafted, the Bill made the owner of a small part-share fishing boat the employer for the purposes of the Act. Thereby, he was excluded from all its benefits, and, moreover, he was made the employer within the meaning of the original Act, which made it impossible, after he had paid the employer's share, for him to recover that share from the members of his crew. Both these points have now been met, I think, quite adequately. The first point was met by an Amendment which was made upstairs in Committee. The second point is met here by this provision that a Special Order may be made in regard to the recovery of contributions. I feel sure that will go a long way to meet the case of the part-share fishermen in Cornwall, but even now there may be some difficulties ahead.

I know that my right hon. Friend and both the Departments concerned realise those difficulties. The best effect we can hope for from this Amendment is to make it possible for fishermen who come under this Clause to pay both the shares of the employer and the shares of the employé. Whether the persons referred to in the Clause be a crew, or a fishermen's society, or a co-operative society, it is quite clear that the employers' contributions must be collected from some source. That source cannot be other than the crew of the boat, but if the solution proves to be unsatisfactory to the fishermen themselves, the right hon. Gentleman has got the power to exclude them after experiment duly made. From all that I have heard upstairs in Committee and this evening, I know that it is the positive intention of both the Departments concerned to do their utmost to bring in these men in the most equitable and helpful sense possible; and I desire to thank my right hon. Friend and to express my appreciation of the work done by the permanent staffs of the two Departments. I think we owe almost as much to them as to my right hon. Friend himself.

Mr. TEMPLETON

As one who was at the beginning very largely responsible for drawing the attention of the Ministry of Health to the position of the share fishermen in this matter, I desire to thank the right hon. Gentleman for having approached a very difficult situation and brought forward a Measure that, I believe, will be of incalculable benefit to men who are among the most deserving of the people of this country, and especially for having, in this present Amendment, taken away many of the misgivings that most of us had who have had any connection with or knowledge of the share fishermen of this country. I desire to express my thanks in the hope that this solution will work smoothly; and if it does not, we have the assurance that we shall have such Amendments made as will make it a success.

Amendment agreed to.