HC Deb 09 May 1928 vol 217 cc363-81

Considered in Committee, under Standing Order No. 71A.

[Captain FITZROY in the Chair.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, That, for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to secure, by means of the formation of a company and the assistance thereof out of public funds, the making of loans for agricultural purposes on favourable terms, and to facilitate the borrowing of money on the security of farming stock and other agricultural assets, and for purposes connected therewith, it is expedient—

  1. (a) to authorise the payment out of the Consolidated Fund, or the growing produce thereof, of such sums not exceeding eight hundred and twelve thousand five hundred pounds as may be required for making advances to the company to be formed under the said Act, and for procuring the underwriting of debentures or debenture stock to be issued by such company as aforesaid for raising sums not exceeding five million pounds;
  2. (b) to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of sums not exceeding ten thousand pounds a year for ten years as contributions towards the cost of administration of the said company;
  3. (c) to authorise the payment into the Exchequer of sums paid by the said company by way of repayment of or interest on such advances as aforesaid."—(King's Recommendation signified.) — [Mr. Guinness.]

Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER

It must be a matter for regret when we are dealing with a Resolution of this kind that the Treasury are not represented. We are dealing here with a very important financial question, and I think it is the rule that when we go into Committee of Ways and Means the Treasury should be represented. The hon. Member for Lichfield (Mr. Roy Wilson) put certain questions during his speech on the Second Reading of the Bill in respect of which this Money Resolution is introduced. One of those questions I regard as of some importance, and I think the Government ought now to give the answer which they failed to give on Second Reading. The question put was, "Is there any agreement made or contemplated between the banks and the Government with regard to the share capital of the Corporation in the event of the scheme being wound up?" We understand from the Bill that the Government are going to put up as reserves to the share capital about £650,000 or £700,000, free of interest, for 60 years. It has been made perfectly plain from the speech of the Attorney-General and the earlier speech of the Minister for Agriculture that that is to be not only a reserve fund but for current use.

The Attorney-General has objected to the suggestion we have made that this Bill may well be described as a bankers' protection Bill, and he tried to pour ridicule upon the suggestion that any scheme of this kind could be conducted with any loss to the banking institution. We have not suggested that it would be wise to have a scheme which would specially lead to losses on the part of the banks, but what we have said is that the scheme is so drawn that whoever may lose by its operation the banks will not. That is our contention. We are not saying that you are doing anything to make banks unsound, but I think we are justified in calling it a bankers' protection Bill. There may be other things arranged between the banks and the Government which do not appear in the text of the Measure. If there is going to be an agreement made, or if an agreement is contemplated between the banks and the Government as to what shall he the position in the event of a winding up scheme, then the Committee ought to have full and complete information.

Mr. CRAWFURD

I beg to move, in line 10, after the word "company," to insert the words: of which one-third of the directors shall be appointed by the Treasury. We want to make it clear that the Company or Corporation will be so set up under the auspices of four of the big banks. The Attorney-General gave us to understand that the Minister of Agriculture would not close his mind to a suggestion that there should be some form of control of this kind exercised by the Government, and that is why I am moving this Amendment, although the Attorney-General says that, in the opinion of the Government, the better way to secure what we desire would be to proceed by a suitable drafting of the Articles of Association. I want to point out that whatever else this Bill may do, it does authorise the expenditure of £812,000 of the nation's money, and this expenditure is intended to be for the benefit of the agricultural community of this country. It is not intended for the benefit of the banks. One does not necessarily subscribe to the description of the Bill as a bankers' protection bill, but we are entitled to say that this Measure is primarily not for the benefit of the bankers but for the benefit of the agricultural community, and its provisions should secure that that should be the main object of the Company or Corporation which is to be set up.

I have not had very much time to find out all the details with regard to the precedents which might be considered parallel to this case, but I will quote three instances. In the case of the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, in which the Government had an interest, it was represented by two directors. In the Suez Canal Company, in which for many years this country has had a large interest, we have been represented by directors; and in the case of the British Dyestuffs Corporation, as long as this country had a financial interest in it, the Government were represented by two directors, and those directors were only withdrawn when the financial interest of this country ceased in that company. Therefore, we have ample and most respectable precedents for urging the course we are urging in this Amendment. Although I am not, of course, alleging that it is likely that this Company will be managed in a way inimical to the interests of the farming community, I find that in the Bill there is no actual safeguard that that will not be so, and I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman, if he is considering this proposal, that it is possible that the interests of the banks concerned and the interests of the Government and the farming community might at times be at variance, and that, therefore, it is important that the views of the country and of the agricultural community should at any rate be heard on the directorate of the company which is to manage these powers.

It is quite clear, in regard to the issue of money for these purposes, that the security in some cases will be better than in others, and it is possible that the company, which is subsidised by the Government, might be given the cases with the worse security, while the banks might retain for themselves those cases which offered better security. There is also the case of existing overdrafts, some of which, perhaps, are not to-day held under the best possible security. It is possible that, under a quite simple manipulation of repayment and re-lending, those amounts which at present are held under poor security might be transferred to the fund subsidised under this Bill, and in that way, while the agricultural community might not benefit, the banks very conceivably might. I think that in the Bill the governing passage relating to the Amendment which I am moving is to be found in Clause 2, where it says that: The memorandum or articles of the company shall make provision— (e) for regulating the use of the guarantee fund to which the advances made by the Minister are to be carried. Of course, it does not say anything at all about the principles on which that regulation is to be carried out. That in itself is no safeguard at all, and I think it is certainly a moderate and reasonable proposal that the interests of the agricultural community, which are those of the Government, should be represented, as the Amendment suggests, by the appointment by the Treasury of one-third of the directors.

Mr. ALBERY

As this Amendment was put in at the last moment as a manuscript Amendment, may I ask if I should be in order in moving an Amendment to the proposed Amendment?

Mr. ALBERY

I should like to move an Amendment to insert the words: One representative of the Treasury and one representative of the Farmers' Union. I do not think it is necessary for me to labour the point after the long speech of the hon. Member for West Waltham-stow (Mr. Crawfurd), but I feel that this would meet his wishes and carry out the idea which he has in view.

Mr. CRAWFURD

I should like to say that with the principle of the hon. Member's suggestion we on these benches are entirely in agreement, and, if a form of words can be drafted—and I think it could be done quite simply, by adding, at the end of the words which I propose to insert, the words, "of whom one shall be representative of the farming community"—I shall be perfectly willing to accept it.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I think it would, perhaps, meet the case if the hon. Member's Amendment were, at the end of the proposed Amendment, to insert the words, "of whom one shall be appointed by the National Farmers' Union."

Mr. ALBERY

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, at the end, to add the words, "of which one shall be a member of the Farmers' Union."

Mr. MACLEAN

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment to the proposed Amendment, at the end, to add the words, "and one a representative of the agricultural workers."

We have had representations made by the hon. Member for West Walthamstow (Mr. Crawfurd) and by the hon. Member for Gravesend (Mr. Albery) asking for representation for the Treasury and for the Farmers' Union—

Mr. CRAWFURD

No!

Mr. MACLEAN

I understood that the hon. Member for West Walthamstow was quite prepared to accept a form of words which would practically correlate the two Amendments. I cannot for the life of me see why the largest section, and the section that gets the least of the representation at any time, should be shut out in the cold, and a representative of the Farmers' Union put there to help to administer the moneys which are voted, and are partly provided by the agricultural worker.

Sir CLEMENT KINLOCH-COOKE

Is it possible to move a further Amendment?

Mr. MACLEAN

On a point of Order—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I can deal with only one point of Order at a time. We must confine ourselves to making sensible Amendments.

Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE

I was thinking of that very old established society called the Frothblowers.

Mr. GUINNESS

Before I come to the rather complex Amendment now before the Committee, perhaps I may answer the question put by the hon. Gentleman, the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander), as to how it is proposed to deal with the question of winding-up the Corporation, should that ever be necessary. The hon. Member will find the arrangement laid down in Clause 2, Subsection (3), Paragraph (g). In brief it is that the creditors come first, and if there is not enough to pay the Government advances and the paid-up capital in full, they rank pari passu. As to the Amendment, I think that the proposal has really been answered by the various alternatives which have been put forward. It is evident that there is no prospect of the investor entrusting his money at a low rate of interest to this new Corporation unless it is managed on economic and business lines. It would be fatal to go outside the responsibility of the Corporation for the business management of its affairs, and to allow political considerations to creep in. I quite agree that it is essential that we should be sure that the benefit of what the Government propose to do should go to the farmer, but we believe that this can best be ensured by means of the memorandum and articles of association. We have already proposed that the interest on the paid-up capital should be strictly limited. Every incentive will be left to the Corporation to charge the borrowers the lowest possible rate which is consistent with what they have to pay for their money. I am very doubtful whether one or two representatives of the Govern- ment would be found a really effective method of ensuring the proper conduct of the Corporation's business, but I asked the Attorney-General to give an undertaking earlier in the evening that he would consider the point. I will not turn it clown absolutely at this stage but I certainly cannot commit myself in any way to accepting the Amendment.

Sir JOHN SIMON

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for saying he will keep his mind open on the point. There really is a distinction between the Amendment of the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Crawfurd) and the perhaps rather hastily suggested additions to it. I can quite understand the contention that you would not improve the management of the proposed Corporation by attempting to include in the directorate one individual representing what is avowedly some particular interest and another individual representing another interest. The proposal in the Amendment is that, in view of the fact that very large sums of public money are involved, a portion of the directorate should be appointed by the Treasury. That is not to be described with any approach to accuracy as an attempt to get special interests represented. It is merely an attempt to urge the principle, which in itself is a very good one, that where very large sums of the taxpayers' money are to be made available for the Corporation, the Corporation ought to be managed by a body which includes public representatives.

The Minister has made no reference to the precedents which have been quoted. You could not have a closer precedent than the British Dyestuffs Corporation. As long as it had public money to deal with, it had its directorate partly staffed from Government nominees. The older instances are perfectly good ones which my hon. Friend quoted and, while I can well understand the right hon. Gentleman does not want to commit himself now, especially as the Amendment was not on the Paper, at the same time I would ask him to distinguish between a suggestion that special interests should get their own nominees on the board and a proposal which stands in quite a different position, and with which I think the right hon. Gentleman would to some extent sympathise, based on the principle that when large sums of public money are involved in a new enterprise there should be some Treasury representative on the board. I should be very sorry to think the right hon. Gentleman would say, either for himself or for his colleagues in the Treasury, if that course was followed the company would not be well managed, which is the principal argument he brought forward for resisting the Amendment. We take note, therefore of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman will consider the matter. I am sure he will do it without any preconceived view, because there appears to be very good public reason for making some such arrangement. It is obvious that the suggestion that the memorandum and articles of association will perform the same service is not correct. All the memorandum and articles can do is to arrange as to the constitution and machinery of the company. That has nothing to do with how the company is administered or directed or on what principle it is going to accept or refuse applications. Those things require representation on the directorate, and I hope in due course this will be reconsidered.

Sir ROBERT SANDERS

May I just say this one word in support of the right hon. Gentleman opposite? I think that the Minister ought to know that there is a good deal of feeling on this side of the House that it would be advisable that there should be a representative of the Treasury on this Board.

Mr. ALBERY

In view of the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

There is an Amendment subsequent to the hon. Member's.

Mr. MACLEAN

I decline to allow it to be withdrawn.

Mr. CRAWFURD

In view of what has been said, I am perfectly willing to withdraw the Amendment.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

We must dispose of the last Amendment first.

Question, "That the words 'and one a representative of the agricultural workers' be there added to the proposed Amendment to the proposed Amendment," put, and negatived.

Question again proposed, "That the words' of which one shall be a member of the Farmers' Union,' be added at the end of the proposed Amendment."

Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question put, "That the words of which one-third of the directors shall be appointed by the Treasury,' be inserted in line 10, after the word company.'"

The Committee divided: Ayes, 99; Noes, 212.

Division No. 116.] AYES. [10.54 p.m.
Adamson, Rt Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hollins, A. Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff. Cannock) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Scurr, John
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Barr, J. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Shinwell, E.
Batey, Joseph Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. John, William (Rhondda, West) Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Bromfield, William Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Snell, Harry
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Kelly, W. T. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Buchanan, G. Kennedy, T. Stamford, T. W.
Charleton, H. C. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Stephen, Campbell
Compton, Joseph Kirkwood, D. Stewart, J. (St. Roliox)
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lansbury, George Strauss, E. A.
Crawfurd, H. E. Lawson, John James Sutton, J. E.
Dalton, Hugh Lee, F. Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lindley, F. W. Thurtie, Erneet
Dennison, R. Lunn, William Tinker, John Joseph
Duncan, C. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Tomlinson, R. P.
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Malone, C. L 'Estrange (N 'thampton) Varley, Frank B.
Gillett, George M. Maxton, James Vlant, S. P.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Montague, Frederick Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Murnin, H. Wellock, Wilfred
Griffith, F. Kingsley Naylor, T. E. Welsh, J. C.
Groves, T. Oliver, George Harold Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Grundy. T. W. Owen, Major G. Wiggins, William Martin
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Palin, John. Henry Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Hardie, George D. Paling, W. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Hayday, Arthur Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Windsor, Walter
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Ponsonby, Arthur Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Potts, John S.
Hirst, G. H. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Whiteley.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Galbraith, J. F. W.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Ganzoni, Sir John
Albery, Irving James Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Goff, Sir Park
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Chapman, Sir S. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)
Allen, J. Sandeman (L 'pool, W. Derby) Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Grant, Sir J. A.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Christle, J. A. Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter
Astbury, Lieut-Commander F. W. Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Greene, W. P. Crawford
Atholl, Duchess of Clarry, Reginald George Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Colfox, Major William Phillips Grotrian, H. Brent
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Cooper, A. Duff Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Couper, J. B. Hall, Lieut. Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Hamilton, Sir George
Bennett, A. J. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Hammersley, S. S.
Betterton, Henry B. Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) Harland, A.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Dalkeith, Earl of Harrison, G. J. C.
Boothby, R. J. G. Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Hartington, Marquess of
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Davies, Dr. Vernon Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Dawson Sir Philip Haslam, Henry C.
Brass, Captain W. Dixey, A. C. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Drewe, C. Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)
Briggs, J. Harold Eden, Captain Anthony Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian
Briscoe, Richard George Edmondson, Major A. J. Haneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Brittain, Sir Harry Ellis, R. G. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s M.) Hills, Major John Waller
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Everard, W. Lindsay Hoars, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Brown. Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) Fermoy, Lord Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Fielden, E. B. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Burman, J. B. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Hopkins, J. W. W.
Burton, Colonel H. W. Forrest, W. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Foster, Sir Harry S. Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Caine, Gordon Hall Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Iliffe Sir Edward M.
Carver, Major W. H. Fremantle, Lieut Colonel Francis E. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Pennefather, Sir John Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Jephcott, A. R. Penny, Frederick George Styles, Captain H. Walter
Jones, Sir G. W. H, (Stoke New'gton) Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Prater
King, Commodore Henry Douglas Plicher, G. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Price, Major C. W. M. Templeton, W. P.
Lamb, J. Q. Radford, E. A. Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Lane Fox, Col. HI. Hon. George R. Raine, Sir Walter Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Lougher, Lewis Ramsden, E. Tinne, J. A.
Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Rawson, Sir Cooper Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Lumley, L. R. Rees, Sir Beddoe Waddington, R.
Lynn, Sir R. J. Remer, J. R. Wallace, Captain D. E.
MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Rentoui, G. S. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Macintyre, Ian Rice, Sir Frederick Warrender, Sir Victor
McLean, Major A. Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Macmillan, Captain H. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Watts, Dr. T.
Macquisten, F. A. Rye, F. G. Wayland, Sir William A.
MacRobert, Alexander M. Salmon, Major I. Wells, S. R.
Makins, Brigadier-General E. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-
Margesson, Captain D. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Sandeman, N. Stewart Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Sanders, Sir Robert A. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Sandon, Lord Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. R. C. (Ayr) Savery, S. S. Wolmer, Viscount
Moore, Sir Newton J. Shepperson, E. W. Womersley, W. J
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Skelton, A. N. Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Murchison. Sir Kenneth Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph Smith-Carington, Neville W. Wragg, Herbert
Nelson, Sir Frank Smithers, Waldron Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Neville, Sir Reginald J. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich)
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Nuttall, Ellis Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Oakley, T. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland) Captain Viscount Curzon and Major the Marquess of Titchfield.
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Mr. SHINWELL

I beg to move in line 15, at the end, to insert the words: subject to the presentation to parliament of an annual balance sheet of the Corporation. It is proposed to spend public money for the purposes of administration in respect of the operations of this company, and in such circumstances, it would appear judicious to have presented to Parliament annually a financial statement, which would enable this House to determine whether there had been efficiency in administration. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman in charge of this Bill if he could not accept this Amendment, which is a very logical one and does not run counter to the spirit of the Measure. After all, if public money is to be devoted to this purpose, it would appear reasonable that this corporation should furnish this financial statement. I know of no case where public money is expended, and no opportunity is provided to enable hon. Members to decide whether the administration has been properly conducted. It is not a question merely of guarantee or of credit facilities, but an actual payment of public money, which, in the event of the scheme not proving fruitful, would be lost to the State; and in these circumstances I think the Government might very properly accept the Amendment.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I am not sure that this is not provided for by Act of Parliament already. It would be unusual to insert these words in a Resolution of this kind.

Mr. ALEXANDER

This is a subsidy granted by Parliament, and in the case of the sugar beet subsidy, which was dealt with first by Money Resolution and by Bill, such as we are discussing tonight, we found it necessary to impose the condition that it should be subject to the presentation of a properly prepared statement of accounts. We are only following in this case the precedent adopted in granting the sugar beet subsidy. There are three considerations. First, there is the special Clause providing for a direct payment by the Exchequer of £10,000 for ten years—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I take it that the hon. Member is dealing with the point of Order. I understand, from information that I have received, that the law does not cover this, and, therefore, I will put the Amendment.

Mr. GUINNESS

I really cannot accept this Amendment at this stage. I doubt if there is any precedent of this kind on a Financial Resolution. It is a matter which might well be dealt with in Committee on the Bill, and which should only be dealt with after due consideration as to the form in which accounts, if they are demanded, should be furnished; and though I am quite prepared to consider it before the Committee stage, I regret that I cannot accept the Amendment now.

Mr. MAXTON

I am afraid we cannot regard the answer of the Minister as at all satisfactory. I cannot claim to represent the agricultural interests of this country, but when this nation is proposing to go into the bond broking business on a large scale, I want to be satisfied as to how the public money is going to be put into this business, and I want to see that, as a Member of this House, I have an annual opportunity of seeing whether this public money is being prudently handled. We are handing over nearly £1,000,000 to a private Corporation. The Minister has resisted the placing of public representatives on the Board of Directors, and now he tells us that we have to vote the money first, and he will say afterwards whether or not we shall be told how it is being spent.

It is a preposterous proposal to put before the Committee. The Committee will be treating its responsibilities in a very frivolous way if it gives the Minister this Financial Resolution without even a promise from him that he will devise some satisfactory method in which the accounts can be presented. The Conservative party appeals to the country as being the party which is the most prudent in its handling of public money, but the proposal that we are asked to endorse here now is that we shall hand away £800,000 of the public money at once, with more to follow. The Minister is not prepared even to promise us that we shall have an annual statement of how that money is being handled and dealt with. I am not going to allow that to go through this House before at least I have had an opportunity of entering my protest in the Division Lobby.

Mr. GUINNESS

The hon. Member is quite well aware that under the Companies Act it is essential to file a balance sheet at Somerset House and to furnish accounts. I have already undertaken that we shall bring the matter before the House, but, as a matter of procedure, it is not usual to put in a detailed point in a Financial Resolution. I am perfectly prepared to deal with this matter at a later stage.

Mr. ALEXANDER

The promise of the Minister to go into the matter before a further stage of the Bill is, perhaps, better than nothing at all, but to suggest to the Committee that the filing of the annual accounts at Somerset House is really satisfying the request that we are making is to belittle his own knowledge of previous instances of this kind. I started to explain to the Committee just now that we based our claim to-night on the legislation dealing with the sugar-beet subsidy. There you were giving a direct subsidy to an industry. I remember the discussions behind the Chair with the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor and certain accountants as to the form in which we should require the accounts to be presented to Parliament. The point I raise now is this: that we are actually voting, in this particular part of the Financial Resolution, £10,000 for this year and £10,000 for each subsequent year. The Government are also asking for £62,500 for underwriting debentures, and we are authorising them to pay over in three instalments a sum total of £650,000 of share capital in three years. Surely, we are entitled to ask, before voting the money in Committee of Ways and Means, that the Government shall agree that the House of Commons, as representing the taxpayer, shall be supplied directly with the form of accounts, and not merely be given the information that the accounts shall be filed at Somerset House; that we shall be supplied with a form of accounts showing completely how public money is to be spent. It is the Minister's own Department which has created the precedent that we are putting before the Committee to-night, in the case of the sugar-beet subsidy. I think he ought to say now that he is prepared to give some complete supervision, and that we ought not to wait for the Bill. If he does not, we shall have to go to a Division, and see if we can put some pressure upon him.

Sir N. MOORE

Is this to be a limited liability company? If it is, then under the Companies Act it must submit its balance sheet in the ordinary way?

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 93; Noes, 199.

Division No. 117.] AYES. [11.15 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Adamson, w. M. (Staff, Cannock) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') John, William (Rhondda, West) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Barr, J. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Snell, Harry
Batey, Joseph Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Kelly, W. T. Stamford, T. W.
Bromfield, William Kennedy, T. Stephen, Campbell
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Kirkwood, D. Strauss, E. A.
Buchanan, G. Lansbury, George Sutton, J. E.
Charleton, H. C. Lawson, John James Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
Compton, Joseph Lee, F. Thurtle, Ernest
Crawfurd, H. E. Lindley, F. W. Tinker, John Joseph
Dalton, Hugh Lunn, William Tomlinson, R. P.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon- C. P.
Dennison, R. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Varley, Frank B.
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Maxton, James Viant, S. P.
Gillett, George M. Morrison, R C. (Tottenham, N.) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Murnin, H. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Naylor, T. E. Wellock, Wilfred
Griffith, F. Kingsley Oliver, George Harold Welsh, J. C.
Groves, T. Palin, John Henry Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Grundy, T. W. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Whiteley, W.
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Wiggins, William Martin
Hardie, George D. Ponsonby, Arthur Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Potts, John S. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) Windsor, Walter
Hirst, G. H. Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Scurr, John
Hollins, A. Shiels, Dr. Drummond TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Shinwell, E. Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Paling.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Cooper, A. Duff Harrison, G. J. C.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Couper, J. B. Kartington, Marquess of
Albery, Irving James Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Crooke, J, Smedley (Derltend) Haslam, Henry C.
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Headlam, Lieut-Colonel C. M.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian
Astbury, Lieut-Commander F. W. Curzon, Captain Viscount Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Atholl, Duchess of Dalkeith, Earl of Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Davies, Dr. Vernon Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Dawson, Sir Philip Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Bennett, A. J. Drewe, C. Hopkins, J. W. W.
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Eden, Captain Anthony Hume, Sir G. H.
Betterton, Henry B. Edmondson, Major A. J. Iliffe, Sir Edward M.
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Ellis, R. G. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Boothby, R. J. G. Everard, W. Lindsay Jephcott, A. R.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Fermoy, Lord Jones, Sir G. W. H.(Stoke New'gton)
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Fielden, E. B. King, Commodore Henry Douglas
Brass, Captain W. Forestler-Walker, Sir L. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Forrest, W. Lamb, J. Q.
Briggs, J. Harold Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Briscoe, Richard George Fraser, Captain Ian Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lougher, Lewis
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Galbraith, J. F. W. Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) Ganzoni, Sir John Lumley, L. R.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Burman, J. B. Goff, Sir Park Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Macintyre, Ian
Caine, Gordon Hall Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter McLean, Major A.
Carver, Major W. H. Greene, W. P. Crawford Macmillan, Captain H.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Grotrian, H. Brent Macquisten, F. A.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. MacRobert, Alexander M.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywosd) Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Margesson, Captain D.
Christle, J. A. Hamilton, Sir George Mason, Colonel Glyn K.
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Hammersley, S. S. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd
Clarry, Reginald George Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Colfox, Major William Phillips Hariand, A. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Salmon, Major I. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Moore, Sir Newton J. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Warrender, Sir Victor
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Sandeman, N. Stewart Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Murchison, Sir Kenneth Sanders, Sir Robert A. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph Sandon, Lord Watts, Dr. T.
Nelson, Sir Frank Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Wayland, Sir William A.
Neville, Sir Reginald J. Savery, S. S. Wells, S. R.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Shepperson, E. W. White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-
Nuttall, Ellis Skelton, A. N. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Oakley, T. Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Pennefather, Sir John Smith-Carington, Neville W. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Penny, Frederick George Smithers, Waldron Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Wolmer, Viscount
Pilcher, G. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Womersley, W. J.
Price, Major C. W. M. Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Radford, E. A. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Raine, Sir Walter Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Ramsden, E. Styles, Captain H. Walter Wragg, Herbert
Rawson, Sir Cooper Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Remer, J. R. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich)
Rentoul, G. S. Templeton, W. p.
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Tinne, J. A. Major the Marquess of Titchfield and Captain Wallace.
Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Rye, F. G. Waddington, R.

Main Question put.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 239; Noes, 11.

Division No. 118.] AYES. [11.25 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Crawlurd. H. E. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Adamson. Rt. Hon. w. (Fife, West) Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Haslam, Henry C.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)
Albery, Irving James Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) Henderson, Capt. R.R. (Oxf'd, Henley)
Alexander, A. v. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Curzon, Captain Viscount Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Dalkeith, Earl of Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Alexander. Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Centr'l) Dalton, Hugh Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Hirst, G. H.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Davies, Dr. Vernon Hollins, A.
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Dawson, Sir Phillip Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Atholl, Duchess of Drewe, C. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Eden, Captain Anthony Hopkins, J. W. W.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Edmondson. Major A. J. Hore-Belisha, Leslie
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Edwards, C, (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Illffe, Sir Edward M.
Bennett, A. J. Ellis, R. G. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Bentinck. Lord Henry Cavendish- Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Betterton, Henry B. Everard, W. Lindsay Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Fermoy, Lord Jephcott, A. R.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Fielden, E. B. John, William (Rhondda, West)
Boothby, R. J. G. Forestler-Walker, Sir L. Jones, Sir G.W.H. (Stoke New'gton)
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Forrest, W. Kennedy, T.
Brass, Captain W. Foxcroft, Captain C. T. King, Commodore Henry Douglas
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Fraser, Captain Ian Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Briqgs, J. Harold Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lamb, J. Q.
Briscoe, Richard George Galbraith, J. F. W. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Bromfield, William Ganzoni, Sir John Lee, F.
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Lougher, Lewis
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) Gillett, George M. Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Goff, Sir Park Lumley, L. R.
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Graham, Fergus (Cumberland N.) MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Macintyre, Ian
Burman, J. B. Greene, W. P. Crawford McLean, Major A.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Macmillan, Captain H.
Caine, Gordon Hall Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Carver, Major W. H. Griffith, F. Kingsley Mac Robert, Alexander M.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Grotrian, H. Brent Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Grundy, T. W. Mason, Colonel Glyn K.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd
Charleton, H. C. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Christle, J. A. Hamilton, Sir George Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Moore, Sir Newton J.
Clarry, Reginald George Hammersley, S. S. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Conway, Sir W. Martin Harland, A. Murchison, Sir Kenneth
Cooper, A. Duff Harrison, G. J. C. Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph
Couper, J. B. Hartington, Marquess of Naylor, T. E.
Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Neville, Sir Reginald J.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Shepperson, E. W. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Nuttall, Ellis Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Oakley, T. Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Warrender, Sir Victor
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Skelton, A. N. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Oliver, George Harold Slaney, Major P. Kenyan Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Paling, W. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Watts, Dr. T.
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Pennefather, Sir John Smith-Carington, Neville W. Wayland, Sir William A.
Penny, Frederick George Smithers, Waldron Wells, S. R.
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Wiggins, William Martin
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Plicher, G. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Price, Major C. W. M. Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Radford, E. A. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Raine, Sir Walter Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Ramsden, E. Strauss, E. A. Windsor, Walter
Rawson, Sir Cooper Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Remer, J. R. Styles, Captain H. Walter Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Wolmer, viscount
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Womersley, W. J
Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) Sutton, J. E. Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Templeton, W. P. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Salmon, Major I. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Wragg, Herbert
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Tinne, J. A. Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich)
Sandeman, N. Stewart Tomlinson, R. P. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Sanders, Sir Robert A. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Sandon, Lord Varley, Frank B. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Viant, S. P. Captain Margesson and Captain Bowyer.
Savory, S. S. Wallace, Captain D. E.
NOES.
Batey, Joseph Kirkwood, D. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Buchanan, G. Lindley, F. W.
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Potts, John S. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Stephen, Campbell Mr. Maxton and Mr. Thurtle.
Kelly, W. T. Tinker, John Joseph

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.