HC Deb 03 May 1928 vol 216 cc2025-39

Resolution reported, That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision, among other matters, for amending the Law relating to the National Debt, it is expedient—

  1. (a) in substitution for the existing provisions with respect to the New Sinking Fund and the other annual sums for the National Debt now charged on the Consolidated Fund—
    1. (i) to authorise the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of the following sums, that is to say:
      • In the financial year ending on the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and twenty-nine, the sum of three hundred and sixty-nine million pounds;
      • In the financial year ending on the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and thirty, and in every subsequent year, the slur of three hundred and fifty-five million pounds;
    2. (ii) to provide for the application of the sum so issued in any year in meeting the annual charges in respect of that year for the National Debt in respect of interest and management (exclusive of any interest payable in respect of national savings certificates 2026 which is otherwise provided for), and for the application of the balance of the said sum in purchasing, redeeming, or paying-off of debt;
  2. (b) to authorise the Treasury to borrow, in such manner as they think fit, on the security of the Consolidated Fund any sums required for meeting the interest from time to time becoming payable in respect of national savings certificates."

Resolution read a Second time.


I beg to move to leave out lines 12 to 14, inclusive.

In view of the rather wide Debate upon the Amendment moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith), which wandered somewhat far afield from the central point of his Amendment, I shall confine my observations to an explanation of what is involved in the Amendment that I am now moving. We do not propose to interfere with the National Debt provisions during the current finnacial year. The Chancellor of the Exchequer [is proposing to provide £304,000,000 for interest and £65,000,000 for Sinking Fund in the current year. We are not dealing with that. In this Resolution, the House is asked to approve the proposal adumbrated in the Budget speech to the effect that in future years instead of there being a fixed sum for Sinking Fund, a combined sum shall be provided to include both interest and Sinking Fund. It is to that proposal that we are now objecting. Hon. Members will see the vital difference there is between the practice which has been in operation during the last few years, since the adoption of the Baldwin Sinking Fund, and that which is now proposed for the next financial year. Under the existing arrangement the Sinking Fund was a fixed amount, a statutory £50,000,000 a year. The cost of the interest, whatever it might be, in any particular financial year did not affect the amount which had to be provided for Sinking Fund purposes. The Chancellor of the Exchequer now proposes to change that system by lumping together in one sum the interest charges and the Sinking Fund. Therefore, hon. Members will see, if the interest charges are higher than have been estimated, so much the less will be available for Sinking Fund purposes. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is proposing after this year to provide an inclusive sum of £355,000,000 for interest and Sinking Fund. Our first objection is that that sum, in view of the experience of the last few years, is likely to be altogether insufficient to provide an adequate Sinking Fund.

Last year the interest on the debt was, I believe, something like £312,000,000 or £313,000,000. Supposing next year the interest amounts to £310,000,000. There will then be available about £45,000,000 for the Sinking Fund. There is another factor of a serious nature which enters into the calculation, and it is one to reduce the Sinking Fund considerably below £40,000,000 under the Baldwin scheme. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is proposing to make provision for the annually accruing interest of the National Savings Certificates. This year and during the last few years hon. Members will find the figures given in the annual publication relating to the National Debt, and they will see that the amount of accrued interest of £140,000,000 has been increasing at the rate of £20,000,000 a year, and no provision has hitherto been made for that. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has not made it clear what provision he proposes for the annual interest of the National Savings Certificates, and its relation to the Sinking Fund. I have already given the Treasury notice that I should be glad if they could give some understandable explanation of what they actually expect in regard to this matter.

I am not alone in my lack of appreciation of this point, because there is not a single financial expert whose comments I have read, and I have read a great many, who has a clear understanding of how this additional interest upon the National Savings Certificates is going to affect the amount of the Sinking Fund. So far as we can understand it the amount of the Sinking Fund will be reduced by about £20,000,000 for some years to come. There are £51,000,000 required every year to meet the specific Sinking Fund undertakings. There are certain debts to which an obligation is attached for which so much a year should be put aside for the reduction of the debt, and they take over £50,000,000 a year. Let us see how far £50,000,000, which is the sum to be provided under the Chancellor of the Exchequer's estimate next year, is going towards reducing the amount of the debt. when it is £1,000,000 short of providing the specific Sinking Fund undertaking. No provision is made for the redemption of that vast amount of debt for which no specific fund is provided.

It may be a lessening figure after the next year, because the 10-year National Savings Certificates are likely to mature, and there may be a small falling off after a few years. At any rate, it is not likely to be less than £14,000,000, and therefore we are under an obligation to provide £51,000,000 for specific Sinking Fund undertakings and £14,000,000 for National Savings Certificates, which makes £65,000,000 which we must find even if the interest does not rise above £304,000,000. Therefore the right hon. Gentleman is going to be £14,000,000 short in regard to his statutory obligations. I do not think it is necessary for me to go into the importance of providing an adequate Sinking Fund. That question has been fully debated already upon the previous Amendment, but I think the House of Commons ought not to commit itself to this proposal which is not intended to operate until next year.

If we were to have a repetition of the incidents of the last few days it is highly probable that the Government would not be in office next year. Supposing another party came into office with more sound views on financial matters, and much more anxious to obtain the probity and the prestige of our national finance, I am quite sure they would not subscribe to such a proposal as the Chancellor of the Exchequer is now asking the House to adopt. I wish that we could have a decision on this question upon its merits by a free vote of the House of Commons and not on party lines, for I feel certain that there is no one in the House who understands the real importance of this proposal, and who at the same time is anxious to maintain the credit of the country, who would give such a proposal as this his support. I should be glad if the Secretary of State for War could produce one financial authority who has written upon this proposal during the last 10 days, since it was introduced in the Budget speech, who has given it his support. The importance of maintaining the Sinking Fund is supreme, and we are objecting to this proposal because it means a very considerable reduction of the sum devoted to Sinking Fund purposes and because we believe the sum proposed is quite inadequate.


I do not propose to go at any length into this matter, because most of the points have been covered in the earlier Debates this evening. I wish to clear up the question of the interest on the Savings Certificates. The Chancellor of the Exchequer came down to the House, and, in his Budget speech, cried peccavi. The right hon. Gentleman told us that all these years he had been defending the old method of dealing with the interest on Savings Certificates, and he was prepared to admit he had been wrong all the time. Having said that, as far as I can understand this question, it appears that the Financial Secretary is going to commit the same mistake. We have attacked the Chancellor of the Exchequer year after year on the ground that he did not include in the interest on the debt the true amount that was accruing on the Savings Certificates. In the current year he proposes, as far as the amount of interest is concerned, to take precisely the same course that he has now admitted is wrong and to put the balance to the Sinking Fund. I suggest that that is a wholly improper proceeding, and that with respect to this figure—I wish the right hon. Gentleman would give a little attention to this point for it is a very serious one—instead of £65,000,000 which is down in this Financial Statement as Sinking Fund, I suggest, in accordance with the policy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that he ought to deduct the true amount accruing on Savings Certificates instead of the mere amount estimated as being the likely sum he will be called upon to pay during the year. That is the first point.

The second point is one which I have asked on several occasions, without receiving any answer, and I really want to get an answer on this occasion. Is this amount put down in the Financial Statement as Sinking Fund of an entirely different character from the amount put down on previous occasions? On those occasions it was the amount which was allocated to Sinking Fund, and if I understand aright the accounts this year, it is nothing of the kind on this occasion, but is merely an estimate of the balance that will be left over after paying interest on the Debt. That is to say, this year it will be £369,000,000, less the amount expended on the Debt. In that case, when we come to the statement at the end of the year, we shall have the actual amount and this is merely an estimate. I want a clear understanding from the Government as to whether that is the right interpretation. I put that interpretation upon it. Practically no one else has done so, and I have not been able to find out whether it is correct or not.

The third point I want to raise is this matter of the inclusion in the Sinking Fund of the capital assets paid back to this country by the Dominions. I am not at all clear as to what has been the procedure hitherto. Is there any departure at all in what is being contemplated this year as against previous years? It is quite clear that when the Dominions pay back to this country part of that which has been lent to them, that is an actual asset. It ought to go to the relief of the Debt of this country, and it ought not to be regarded as part of the Sinking Fund, because it does not reduce the net Debt in the smallest degree. The actual net Debt consists of the gross Debt, less the debts that are owed to this country. If you are a business house, and you have certain debts, and against them you have book debts owing to you, it does not improve the finances of your house at all if you realise part of the book debts, and with that you pay debts you owe to other people. When the Dominions pay us some of the loans that we have advanced to them, and we put the money to reduce the debts that we owe, we are not in the smallest degree improving the finances of this country, and to regard that as Sinking Fund is a wholly erroneous view. What I want to know is whether the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for this year is different from what it was before, and, if so, where the difference lies, and to suggest that if it is proposed in future to include that in this so-called £65,000,000 Sinking Fund, that is an entirely incorrect method of dealing with accounts.


I think, perhaps, it would be better if I replied at once to the questions put to me. I quite agree that we have had a considerable Debate already upon what is really more appropriate to the previous Amendment than to this Amendment. I do not complain of that, and I agree with the right hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment that it saves us from going over the whole ground. Let me agree with him on this point—that we are all of us conscious of the supreme importance of maintaining a Sinking Fund adequate for our purposes. I hope I may be able to show in the course of a very few moments that the Sinking Fund provision that we are making is adequate and is as much as the nation can afford. The right hon. Gentleman assumed that £310,000,000 a, year, out of the total provision of £369,000,000, was required for interest on the Debt. I understood him to say that £310,000,000 was the figure.


No, I do not think I said that. I said that this year he was providing £304,000,000 as interest and £65,000,000 for Sinking Fund, which was £369,000,000. I think the right hon. Gentleman has misunderstood. My observations referred to the proposals for next year. As regards this year, my hon. Friend the Member for West Leicester (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) appeared to be in difficulty as to whether this year's provision is similar to the provision of last year. I assumed that it was, and, therefore, I was not concerned with this year, because I assumed that, if the interest costs more this year than the estimate, the £65,000,000 will be paid into the Sinking Fund. It was with reference to next year, if this scheme comes into operation, that an increase in interest will cause a corresponding reduction in the amount paid to the Sinking Fund.


Then £310,000,000 was the figure he mentioned, but not as applicable to this year.


As illustrative of what will happen.


Not the actual figure that he anticipated, but a figure which is anticipatory—that if it ever rises to £310,000,000, then the residue between £310,000,000 and £355,000,000 would alone be available for the Sinking Fund. That is, I understand, the argument. I think I can relieve the right hon. Gentleman of his fears. £310,000,000 is, as far as we can estimate, a figure which we need not fear. Last year's figure was £313,000,000. The Estimate this year is £304,000,000, and I am going, I hope, to be able to justify taking not the £313,000,000 of last year or the £310,000,000 of the right hon. Gentleman, but the figure which we have, in fact, taken, namely, £304,000,000. The right hon. Gentleman is entitled to ask why we have taken £304,000,000 as the figure, and I propose to tell him. The £313,000,000 of last year included the payments that we made on account of Savings Certificates, and the net sum apart from Savings Certificates was £298,700,000. I am going to deal with Savings Certificates afterwards, and separately. I will first deal, for the sake of clarity, with the interest on the Debt other than the Savings Certificates' interest. That interest last year was £298,700,000, and we are anticipating a reduction of £8,300,000 in the figures we are taking for this year. I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is desirable to come to a conclusion as to the amount of interest we are likely to have to pay, because when you have come to that conclusion then you know what is the residue left out of the composite sum for the purpose of Debt redemption, and for the purpose of dealing with the Savings Certificates.

I have first to make good the figure of our estimate of £290,400,000 for interest on the Debt this year. That is a reduction of £8,300,000 on the actual payments of last year, and the reduction is brought about in this way. There has been, as hon. Members know, an undisclosed Sinking Fund, which the Chancellor of the Exchequer explained in his Budget statement, and which will reduce the sums which have to be found for interest by £5,200,000. As long as that is understood, I need not pause to explain it in detail. That accounts for £5,200,000 of the £8,300,000 which we are estimating will be the reduction this year. That leaves me £3,100,000 to account for. Last year we paid off debt to the amount of £65,000,000, and the interest on that would approximately—not quite—amount to the £3,100,000. Therefore, I say that we are on perfectly safe ground, judging from the experience of last year, in anticipating that the payment for interest, apart from the Savings Certificates that we have to look after, for this year, will be £290,400,000.

I have then to show what is available for the Sinking Fund proper for the redemption of capital and for looking after the Savings Certificates, and that I can show in this way. The £290,400,000, deducted from the sum that we are providing this year, namely, £369,000,000, leaves the sum of £78,600,000, and that sum is available for the double purpose of redeeming Debt and of looking after the interest on the Savings Certificates. For the period of six years, which the Chancellor of the Exchequer took in his Budget statement with reference to the Sinking Fund, the amount which has to be paid to the specific Sinking Funds averages £50,250,000, and if the £50,250,000 were deducted from the £78,600,000 for this year, that would be too favourable to the view that I am putting forward. Therefore, I will not take that figure, but will take the average for the six years, which is a reduced figure of £71,750,000. Taking that figure as the average of the six years, and deducting the £50,250,000 which is the amount required for the specific Sinking Funds, it leaves me with a surplus of £21,500,000. That £21,500,000 is available for the interest on the Savings Certificates. The Savings Certificates, according to actuarial advice, call for £20,250,000 per annum, and consequently, after dealing with the interest, after dealing with the Sinking Funds attached to specific loans, after dealing with the interest on the Savings Certificates, I have a small surplus of £1,250,000 in the provision that we have made in the Sinking Funds for the next six years. I say, therefore, that we have provided for the whole of the liabilities which ought to be thrown upon the Sinking Fund.

Let me also say this. The hon. Gentleman said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer stood here and cried, "Peccavi!" I do not know whether he knew the scope of that word. It was not only my right hon. Friend who had sinned with regard to the Savings Certificates, because the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Collie Valley (Mr. Snowden) shared in that sin, and, indeed, he sinned still more, and every previous Chancellor of the Exchequer, since the Savings Certificates started, has sinned in making no provision for the actual in- terest accrued on the Savings Certificates, but merely providing for the interest on those which happened to fall due during the particular years when they were in charge. For example, the right hon. Gentleman himself, in 1924, provided a total amount, for redemption of Debt and Savings Certificates, of £52,000,000—…45,000,000 for actual redemption of Debt, and only £7,000,000 towards the Savings Certificates. The Savings Certificates then, as now, required, on the average, something like £20,000,000 a year, towards which the right hon. Gentleman, who prides himself on his financial purity, supplied £7,000,000 only.

As regards last year, on which my right hon. Friend is so much attacked, how does he compare? He compares in this way. He provided £65,000,000 for Sinking Fund, and, over and above that, he provided another £15,000,000 for Savings Certificates. The real comparison there is that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Collie Valley provided £52,000,000 for Sinking Fund and Savings Certificates, and my right hon. Friend has provided £80,000,000—£65,000,000 for Sinking Fund and £15,000,000 for Savings Certificates. If my right hon. Friend sinned, he sinned less than half as much as the right hon. Gentleman.


But did not the present Chancellor sin in the full light, whereas those who sinned before sinned while it was yet dark?


The present Chancellor of the Exchequer is extremely intelligent, and he can see things where others cannot; but that does not alter the facts, and the facts were just the same when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Collie Valley was in office as they are when my right hon. Friend is in office. I do not want to make any debating points on this, but I do want to reassure the House, because this is a most important provision in our finance. Hon. Members are entitled to ask themselves whether the sum which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has provided for Sinking Fund is or is not enough—whether it is enough to pay the interest, whether it is enough to look after the statutory or contractual obligations with regard to Sinking Fund, whether it is enough to look after the Savings Certificates. I apologise to the House for having given so many figures, but it has been necessary to deal with the figures in detail, and I have shown, with regard to each obligation thrown upon this Fund, that the Fund can meet that obligation, and not only meet it, but have a small surplus.

The right hon. Gentleman says, "Yes, but what guarantee have you that interest is not going to go up? As the interest goes up the amount available for redemption of principal will be reduced." That is true. Of course, as regards the day-to-day money, the Treasury Bills, no man can prophesy, and I am not going to prophesy. All I can say is that we have assumed the present rate of interest, and the human probabilities, taking one month with another, are that we shall be able to average at least that, if not better. As regards the Funded Debt, is it probable that we shall have to pay more than five per cent. on the £2,000,000,000 of War Loan? I cannot believe that it is probable; I think it is more likely that the interest will be reduced than that it will be increased. We have not assumed in these calculations that it is going to be reduced, hut we have assumed that it will remain on the same basis, and on that basis we have looked after every obligation. On the other hand, if we have a slice of luck, if short money rates are reduced, we are increasing the Sinking Fund, and the position will then be better than I have stated. I think that the House can be and ought to be reassured on this point, and that it can confidently reject the Amendment.


Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the two specific questions that I put to him? Is this £65,000,000 that appears for the first time merely an estimate; and, secondly, what is the change in dealing with the amounts that are paid by the Dominions independently?


I am sorry I did not reply. I did not wish to avoid answering the questions. As regards the Dominions, the position has been that they have been taken as repayments for what has hitherto been an undisclosed Sinking Fund. What is now to be done is that they are going to be gathered into the new Sinking Fund, and Great Britain is going to take credit for the full amount by which she is reducing her Debt. That is all right. No one gives us credit for an undisclosed Sinking Fund; no one realises that we are paying off debt in that way. But if the amounts are put into our accounts as part of the total of Debt that is repaid, our public credit is improved. The hon. Member also asked whether the £65,000,000 this year was an estimate. Of course it is an estimate. The total figure is £369,000,000. The £65,000,000 is arrived at by deducting £304,000,000, which is the estimated amount of interest on Debt and Savings Certificates with which we are likely to have to deal. The total for these two items is £304,000,000, and if we deduct that from the £369,000,000 we get the £65,000,000, which is the Sinking Fund referred to in this account.


If the amount be more than that, it will be less than £65,000,000.


Yes, and if the amount of interest is less than that, the £65,000,000 will be increased.


I would like, in the first, place, to thank the right hon. Gentleman for making these figures absolutely clear. I am sure that the House will join with me in congratulating him on making the figures as clear as they can be made. But I do not think he should be permitted to get away with what was purely a debating point against the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) and other Chancellors of the Exchequer. It is well within his knowledge, as it is within my own, that this question of the problem of War Savings Certificates was first traced by my hon. Friend the Member for West Leicester (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence), and that it was owing to the publicity given by the Public Accounts Committee that this matter was seen to require urgent attention. My right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley was in office prior to the time when attention was called to the matter, and I do not think a debating point should have been made against him.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Resolution."

The House divided: Ayes, 235; Noes, 102.

Division No. 108.] AYES. [9.1 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Grotrian, H. Brent
Agg-Gardner. Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Conway, Sir W. Martin Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles Cooper, A. Dull Gunston, Captain D. W.
Albery, Irving James Cope, Major William Hacking, Douglas H.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Couper, J. B. Hammersley, S. S.
Alexander, sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Hanbury, C.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Allen, Lieut-Col. Sir William James Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Harrison, G. J. C.
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C M.S. Crook shank, Cpt. H. (Lindsoy, Gainsbro) Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Banks, Reginald Mitchell Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Haslam, Henry C.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Davies, Dr. Vernon Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Dawson, Sir Philip Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Drewe, C. Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian
Benn, sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Edmondson, Major A. J. Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Bethel, A. Elliot, Major Walter E. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.
Boothby, R. J. G. Ellis, R. G. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Everard, W. Lindsay Hills, Major John Waller
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Fairfax, Captain J. G. Hilton, Cecil
Brass, Captain W. Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Fermoy, Lord Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Briggs, J. Harold Fielden, E. B. Hopkins, J. W. W.
Briscoe, Richard George Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Foster, Sir Harry S. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Fraser, Captain Ian Hudson, R. S. {Cumberland, Whiteh'n)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Hume, Sir G. H.
Buchan, John Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Burman, J. B. Galbraith, J. F. W. Hurd, Percy A.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Ganzoni, Sir John Iliffe, Sir Edward M.
Campbell, E. T. Gates, Percy Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Cassels, J. D. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Iveagh, Countess of
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prttmth, S.) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Glyn, Major R. G. C. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Gower, Sir Robert Jephcott, A. R.
Chapman, Sir S. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Kindersley, Major G. M.
Clayton, G. C. Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter King, Commodore Henry Douglas
Cobb, Sir Cyril Greene, W. P. Crawford Knox, Sir Alfred
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Lamb, J. Q.
Long, Major Eric Philipson, Mabel Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Lougher, Lowis Pitcher, G. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Power, Sir John Cecil Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Luce, Maj,-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Preston, William Storry-Deans, R.
Lumley, L. R. Price, Major C. W. M. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen Raine, Sir Walter Tasker, R. Inigo.
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Ramsden, E. Templeton, W. P.
Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Reid, D. D. (County Down) Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Rentoul, G. S. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
MacIntyre, I. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
McLean, Major A. Rice, Sir Frederick Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
MacRobert, Alexander M. Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hall)
Making, Brigadier-General E. Ropner, Major L. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Malone, Major P. B. Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Russell, Alexander West (Tynsmouth) Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Margesson, Capt. D. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Watts, Dr. T.
Meller, R. J. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Wells, S. R.
Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Sandeman, N. Stewart White, Lieut. Col. Sir G. Dairymple-
Meyer, Sir Frank Sanders, Sir Robert A. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Sanderson, Sir Frank Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Mitchell, Sir w. Lane (Streatham) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustavo D. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Monsell, Eyret, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Savery, S. S. Winby, Colonel L. P.
Neville, Sir Reginald J. Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) Windsor, Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Nuttall, Ellis Shepperson, E. W. Withers, John James
Oakley, T. Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst) Womersley, W. J.
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Skelton, A. N. Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Oman, Sir Charles William C. Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Pennefather, Sir John Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Penny, Frederick George Smith-Carington, Neville W. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Smithers, Waldron
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Sprot, Sir Alexander TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Captain Wallace and Sir Victor Warrender.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Saklatvala, Shapurji
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hardie, George D. Salter, Dr. Alfred
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hayday, Arthur Scrymgeour, E.
Amman, Charles George Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Scurr, John
Attlee, Clement Richard Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Sexton, James
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Baker, Walter Hollins, A. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Barnes, A. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Shinwell, E.
Barr, J. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Batey, Joseph John, William (Rhondda, West) Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Bondfield, Margaret Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Smillie, Robert
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Broad, F. A. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Bromfield, William Kelly, W. T. Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Kennedy, T. Snell, Harry
Buchanan, G. Lawrence, Susan Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Cape, Thomas Lee, F. Stamford, T. W.
Charleton, H. C. Lindley, F. W. Stephen, Campbell
Cluse, W. S. Livingstone, A. M Sutton, J. E.
Connolly, M. Lowth, T. Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
Cove, W. G. Lunn, William Thurtle, Ernest
Crawfurd, H. E. Macdonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavan) Tinker, John Joseph
Dalton, Hugh Mackinder, W. Townend, A. E.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Duckworth, John Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Viant, S. P.
Duncan, C. March, S Wallhead, Richard C.
Dunnico, H. Montague, Frederick Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Murnin, H. Wellock, Wilfred
England, Colonel A. Naylor, T. E. Westwood, J.
Fenby, T. D. Oliver, George Harold Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Forrest, W. Palin, John Henry Whiteley, W.
Gardner, J. P. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Gillett, George M. Ponsonby, Arthur Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Greenall, T. Potts, John S.
Greenwood. A. (Nelson and Colne) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Ritson, J. Sir Robert Hutchison and Major Owen.
Groves, T. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Resolutions agreed to.

Division No. 109.] AYES. [9.50 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Penny, Frederick George
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Greene, W. P. Crawford Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Alexander, Sir Win. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Philipson, Mabel
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Darby) Grotrian, H. Brent Pitcher, G.
Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Power, Sir John Cecil
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold c, M. t. Gunston, Captain D. W. Preston, William
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Hacking, Douglas H. Price, Major C. W. M.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Raine, Sir Walter
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Hammersley, S. S. Ramsden, E.
Banks, Reginald Mitchell Hanbury, C. Rees, Sir Beddoe
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Harrison, G. J. C. Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Rentoul, G. S.
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Haslam, Henry C. Rice, Sir Frederick
Bethel, A. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Henderson, Capt. R.R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Hunderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian Ropner, Major L.
Brass, Captain W. Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Briggs, J. Harold Hills, Major John Waller Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Hilton, Cecil Salmon, Major I.
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S J. G. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Buchan, John Hopkins, J. W. W. Sandeman, N. Stewart
Burman, J. B. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Sanderson, Sir Frank
Campbell, E. T. Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Cassels, J. D. Hume, Sir G. H. Savery, S. S.
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hurd, Percy A. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Shepperson, E. W.
Chapman, Sir S. Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst)
Clayton, G. C. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Skelton, A. N.
Cobb, Sir Cyril James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. U. Jephcott, A. R. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Cohen, Major J. Brunel Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Kindersley, Major G. M. Smithers, Waldron
Conway, Sir W. Martin King, Commodore Henry Douglas Sprot, Sir Alexander
Cooper, A. Duff Knox, Sir Alfred Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
Cope, Major William Lamb, J. Q. Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Couper, J. B. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Long, Major Eric Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Crawfurd, H. E. Lougher, Lewis Storry-Deans, R.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Strauss, E. A.
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Herman Suetar, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsay, Gainsbro) Lumley, L. R. Tasker, R. Inigo.
Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Templeton, W. P.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Thomson, F. c. (Aberdeen, South)
Davies, Dr. Vernon Macdonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Dawson, Sir Philip MacIntyre, Ian Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough
Drewe, C. McLean, Major A. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Duckworth, John Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Wallace, Captain D. E.
Edmondson, Major A. J. MacRobert, Alexander M. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Makins, Brigadier-General E. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Elliot, Major Walter E. Malone, Major P. B. Warrendar, Sir Victor
Ellis, R. G. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Waterhouse, Captain Charles
England, Colonel A. Margesson, Captain D. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Everard, W. Lindsay Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Watts, Dr. T.
Fairfax, Captain J. G. Mailer, R. J. Wells, S. R.
Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-
Fermoy, Lord Meyer, Sir Frank Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Fielden, E. B. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Forrest, W. Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl
Foster, Sir Harry S. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M, withers, John James
Fraser, Captain Ian Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Womersley, W. J.
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Galbraith, J. F. W. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Ganzoni, Sir John Nuttall, Ellis Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Gates, Percy Oakley, T.
Gault, Lieut.-Cot. Andrew Hamilton O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Oman, Sir Charles William C. Major Sir George Hennessy and
Glyn, Major R. G. C. Owen, Major G. Captain Viscount Curzon.
Gower, Sir Robert Pennefather, Sir John
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hayday, Arthur Saklatvala, Shapurji
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Salter, Dr. Alfred
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Scrymgeour, E.
Ammon, Charles George Hirst, G. H. Scurr, John
Attlee, Clement Richard Hollins, A. Sexton, James
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Baker, Walter Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Barr, J. John, William (Rhondda, West) Shinwell, E.
Batey, Joseph Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Smillie, Robert
Broad, F. A. Kelly, W. T. Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Bromfield, William Lawrence, Susan Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Lee, F. Snell, Harry
Buchanan, G. Lindley, F. W. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Cape, Thomas Lowth, T. Stamford, T. W.
Charleton, H. C. Lunn, William Stephen, Campbell
Cluse, W. S. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Sutton, J. E.
Connolly, M. Mackinder, W. Thurtle, Ernest
Dalton, Hugh MacLeren, Andrew Tinker, John Joseph
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Townend, A. E.
Day, Harry Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Duncan, C. March, S. Viant, S. P.
Dunnico, H. Montague, Frederick Wallhead, Richard C.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Fenby, T. D. Murnin, H. Wellock, Wilfred
Gardner, J. P. Naylor, T. E. Westwood, J.
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Oliver, George Harold Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Gillett, George M. Palin, John Henry Whiteley, W.
Greenall, T. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coins) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Windsor, Walter
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Ponsonby, Arthur Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Potts, John S.
Hardie, George D. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Harris, Percy A. Ritson, J. Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. B. Smith.

Resolution agreed to.

Ordered, That is be an instruction to the Gentlemen appointed to prepare and bring in the Finance Bill that they do make provision therein pursuant to this Resolution.

  1. FINANCE BILL, 63 words
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