HC Deb 29 June 1928 vol 219 cc917-20
Mr. BARR

I beg to move, in page 4, line 23, to leave out from the word "occasion" to the end of the Sub-section.

We allow the first part of the Subsection to remain on the ground that the words are to be found in the Shops (Early Closing) Act, 1920. Therefore, they do not introduce any new principle. We might, indeed, if we had not been animated by the spirit of sweet reasonableness this afternoon, have had something to say in regard to that power, but we are willing that it should remain. The second part, however, gives to the Home Secretary power to override local authorities in regard to the closing hours that they have passed in their areas. One can conceive a local authority fixing the hour at 8.30 and the Home Secretary overriding it, and making it eleven o'clock or such hour as he may think. We have considerable trust in the Home Secretary, but we feel that this is a discretion that may be abused, and an interference with the discretion of local authorities. We know that similar powers have been given before to the Home Secretary in regard, for example, to the two-shift system, and he has made many hundreds of Orders in that respect. He would have considerable power in regard to the Christmas season and other holiday seasons over an unlimited number of days.

The succeeding Sub-section limits the power of local authorities to not more than seven days in the aggregate in the year, but no such limitation obtains here. We might have a Home Secretary who favoured the views that have been expressed to-day, the views of the hon. Lady and others who have such great sympathy for the one-man shop, and who would desire to have exceptions of every kind. I am aware that when this matter was before the Committee, the hon. and gallant Gentleman, the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, said that the House of Commons would have a brake on the Home Secretary. He said that the House of Commons existed to prevent any right hon. Gentleman from doing anything that was not entirely fair. We know, however, how futile and difficult it is for the House of Commons to interfere with these Orders. If these exceptions are multiplied, there will be confusion among customers and shopkeepers, and it is for the benefit of the shopping public that hours should be as regular and uniform as possible. Every exception that is made, and every power that is given to the Home Secretary to override local authorities, tends to weaken the Bill and the whole idea of uniform closing hours. For these reasons and others which I might name, but which I forbear to mention, because I am anxious to see this Bill passed, even in its imperfect form, I move the Amendment.

Dr. SHIELS

I beg to second the Amendment.

I should like, with your permission, Sir, to refer to an Amendment which is down on the Paper in my name, having a similar object, and which I suggest might, in the discretion of the Committee, either be substituted for the one which we are discussing, or be made supplementary to it—in page 4, line 27, at the end, to insert the words: Provided always that where the provisions of a closing order made and confirmed before or after the commencement of this Act prescribe special hours of closing during the Christmas season, then such hours shall regulate the hours of closing for the shops to which the said order applies during the period in such season in which the Secretary of State suspends the operation of the provisions of this Act relating to general closing hours. The Secretary of State for Scotland and the Home Secretary are aware that there has been a strong feeling expressed in places where there are local orders which specifically deal with the Christmas feeling. The Master Butchers' Association of Edinburgh, and the assistants employed by them, are specially anxious that an Order which they have, under which during the Christmas season the hours are extended and limited to 9 o'clock, should not be upset by a general Order made by the Secretary of State suspending the Order for closing altogether. I am anxious that the operation of this general power by the Secretary of State should not upset any local arrangement, which is at present in operation for the Christmas season, and which has the consent of both the employers and employed. I make these remarks in reference to my own Amendment to save time, but in the meantime I have pleasure in seconding the Amendment of my hon. Friend, which will omit the second part of this Clause which makes a difficulty in regard to the matter with which I have dealt.

Sir V. HENDERSON

The Departmental Committee made a number of references to this matter. Particularly, in paragraph 30 of their Report, they say: The suspension of the operation of the Act of 1920 has left traders who had obtained Closing Orders under the Act of 1912 in doubt as to what extent (if any) such suspension affects the provisions of the Closing Orders. It was urged before us that the matter should be made clear in any new legislation, and we think that this might be done. All that is done by the words which it is sought to leave out is to carry out that recommendation, and I hope that the House will on consideration agree to leave them in. We have had no representations about any possible hardship which might occur if these words are left in, except from one quarter, and that is the Edinburgh Master Butchers' Association. My right hon. Friend the the Secretary of State for Scotland has said that he will give a definite undertaking that, so far as that particular Closing Order is concerned, he will not interfere. That is to say, he will exercise the powers vested in him under the provisions of this Clause. Under these circumstances, I think that it is right, from an administrative point of view, that we should clear up this misunderstanding, which has led to a great deal of unnecessary correspondence, and I hope that in view of the undertaking which my right hon. Friend has given, hon. Members will agree to withdraw the Amendment.

Mr. BARR

I am endeavouring to save the time of the House on this Bill, and, in view of the statement made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, and the assurance which he conveyed from the Secretary of State for Scotland, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. SPEAKER

Sir Vivian Henderson——

Dr. SHIELS

My Amendment has not been called.

Mr. SPEAKER

It deals with the same point as the last Amendment.