§ Mr. CHARLETONI wish to move, in page 9, line 2, to leave out the word "and." I have a further Amendment on the paper, in page 9, line 2, after "5" to insert "and 6", and with your permission, Sir, I propose to argue the two together.
§ Mr. HAYDAYOn a point of Order. I have an Amendment before this one. I should like to know the position my Amendment is in.
§ The CHAIRMANAfter. We are discussing page 8, line 44.
§ The CHAIRMANI am sorry. I should have called Mr. Dalton.
§ Mr. DALTONI beg to move, in page 8, line 44, after the word "shall" to insert the words "cease to".
I suppose you did not call me, because it is a direct negative, but I gather that you rule that my Amendment is in order. Perhaps I may make briefly a few observations oil the line of this Amendment?
§ The CHAIRMANThe Amendment of the hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday) is not in order, because it is not followed by a Schedule.
§ Mr. HAYDAYI handed it in to-day.
§ The CHAIRMANI am afraid in the circumstances that I cannot select it.
§ Mr. DALTONWe are dealing with a new scheme for motor vehicles. It was intended in the Budget as a partial set-off for the new Petrol Duty. The Committee will probably remember from the Budget speech the proposal which this Clause embodies. It proposes to make certain reductions in the scales for vehicles, and my submission is that in view of the very heavy burden caused by the new Petrol Duty the reductions proposed are not sufficient to make up in a reasonable measure to the owners of hackney vehicles or goods vehicles, as the case may be, the extra burden they may carry. It has been argued in previous Debates on Finance Bills that the increased duty will act as an increased cost in the distribution of goods, and therefore to some extent defeat the purpose of the Government in reducing the costs of production. For that reason the Amendment I am moving will have the effect of wiping out these duties altogether. The Amendment would have the effect, particularly as regards goods vehicles, of reducing the cost of distribution and consequently bring about a cheapening of the costs including the cost of distribution of goods produced in this country. If the Government are really aiming, as they tell us in other parts of the financial scheme, to stimulate industry, they should have no hesitation in accepting this Amendment.
§ Mr. HAYDAYMay I submit a point dealing with the question of taxation of these vehicles? I would like the Minister favourably to consider the point of increasing the weight of the motor cycles. At present they have a maximum weight of 200 lbs. and a tax of 30s. Motor cycle manufacturers have recently been concerned, because of their export trade and their home trade, to give a reliable motor cycle. With the lamp and all fittings attached it slightly exceeds 200 lbs. in weight, and that brings with it another 30s. tax. The Raleigh works situated at Nottingham find that it is a serious handicap. I would ask the Minister whether he would favourably consider increasing the weight from 200 lbs. to 225 lbs.? It is a small concession, but it means a good deal of difference in the reliability and the desire manufacturers have in placing on the market a machine that will bring increased trade to them without unduly 456 straining the taxable limit of the person who purchases the machine. I hope the Minister will take it into consideration and see whether he cannot raise the limit from 200 lbs. to 225 lbs. before it goes from the 30s. tax to the £3 tax.
§ Mr. MACKINDERI would like to help forward that argument. I think the Minister will agree that so far as the Petrol Duty and horse-power tax are concerned, there is no person in the country who pays as much tax for the use of the roads as the motor cyclist. I have been a motor cyclist for a number of years. I think the Minister would agree that 200 to 300 motor cycles put on the road would not do as much harm as one motor lorry. I know what I am speaking about. They pay up to £1,000 in taxes, and on top of that they have to pay the new Petrol Duty. The whole position is absolutely absurd. I know that young men in the country cannot afford high-power cars, and they get low-power motor cycles, and I know the difficulties in supplying a motor cycle of the weight which is adequate to the work it has to do and within the weight mentioned by my hon. Friend.
The least the Minister might do is to meet the point submitted. It is a very small point, and it would not be too much, especially in view of the increased charge that these young men have to pay in the way of the Petrol Duty. In the first place, I think the taxation is too high, and with the added Petrol Duty, it will take a lot away from these men, who cannot offord to pay for high-power machines. I think the Minister of Transport might consider it.
§ The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley)The point about motor cycles would be more appropriately raised on the Schedule, and hon. Members who have raised it would do well to put down an Amendment to the Schedule, so that it could be dealt with in its proper place. As you have allowed hon. Members to raise the point, may I say one sentence in answer? I am afraid that I cannot give any concessions in this matter. I do not consider that motor cyclists at the present moment are unduly and highly taxed. A motor cycle under 200 lbs. pays 30s. and over 200 lbs. £3. Considering the amount of money spent on our roads out of rates and out 457 of the Road Fund, and what they get for 30s. and £3, I do not think that the tax is too high. If I had to raise the limit to 220 lbs., some hon. Members would say: "220 lbs. is just the dividing line; make it 230." The original 200 lbs. limit was put on what is defined as a light cycle, and I cannot see my way to change from that, though I do suggest that the appropriate time is on the Schedule in the Bill and not on the Clause.
§ Mr. HAYDAYWill the right hon. and gallant Gentleman permit me for one moment. It is because the Amendment that I was about to submit is out of order that I wanted to ask the Minister whether he would consider it, and I would not press it at this stage. I would ask him if he would be prepared to receive a deputation on the matter, because I think he will see that works like the Raleigh with a great export trade would like to make a type slightly over 200 lbs. in weight for export, and in order to meet the financial resources of their purchasers at home. Now if by chance it is 1 lb. over, it immediately carries another 30s. That rather upsets their market, and it has a tendency to injure the reputation of firms well known for the reliable machines they produce. Just that few pounds extra in weight makes a lot of difference. If the right hon. Gentleman would receive some representation and if some slight concession could be made, we would be very thankful.
§ Colonel ASHLEYI am only too pleased to see the hon. Member or any of his friends and to receive a deputation if he will bring one. It is my duty and pleasure to do so. I am sure that I shall receive much useful information if he will come and see me. As to the Amendment before the Committee, I cannot conceive it being put forward for any other reason than as a peg on which to talk about something else. It simply means that there would be no motor vehicle tax at all. The local authority gets very little money for the upkeep of the roads and the numerous road widenings and road reconstructions. The Amendment cannot possibly be accepted by the Government, or there would be no motor vehicle tax for the year 1928–29.
§ Mr. HANNONMay I ask my right hon. Friend if he will give consideration to the point before the Report stage of the Bill. There is a good deal of substance in what my hon. Friend says about motor cycle manufacturers in relation to this taxation of machines at a weight of 200 lbs. In recent years there have been considerable improvements in machines, and there are a good many so-called gadgets which very frequently bring the machine beyond the limit of weight on which tax is paid. While I am very reluctant to suggest anything to reduce the revenue, there is a good deal in what has been advanced from the other side of the Committee. The right hon. Gentleman would be doing a great service to an important industry in this country ill he could in some way meet the suggestion made by the hon. Gentleman opposite. I think he would find it would be a considerable stimulus to the motor cycle industry if he could increase the weight, not perhaps 25 lbs. but 20 lbs., or a little margin above the present weight.
§ Mr. OLIVERThere is just a point I wish to raise, and on which I should like guidance. It refers to invalid carriages. In a part of my constituency, there are four injured miners who have carriers with a small engine attached. They have to pay 5s. for the use of this engine and 5s. for a driving licence. Ten shillings is not very much I confess, but men who have a pension of 12s. 6d. up to 24s. are not in a position to pay even 10s. a year. I want to ask the Minister of Transport or the Chancellor of the Exchequer if these men cannot be freed of this imposition?
§ The CHAIRMANI am unwilling to rule out of order suggestions for rebates, but, as a matter of fact, the question before the House is the total abolition of the tax, and I think details of this sort would really be better discussed on the Schedule.
§ Lieut.-Colonel MOORE-BRABAZONI do not see much objection to a reduction on the motor cycle, but all along the line there is a demand for the increase of weight. In the lorry and steam-lorry markets, there are always representations made to get heavier and heavier vehicles. From the point of view of road upkeep, it becomes a serious matter.
§ Captain FRASERWill the Minister of Transport refuse any concession whatever to motor cyclists unless they can abate the noise they make?
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 60; Noes, 139.
459| Division No. 206.] | AYES. | [4.7 a.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, Watt) | Hardie, George D. | Purcell, A. A. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hayday, Arthur | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Scurr, John |
| Batey, Joseph | Hint, G. H. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Bromfield, William | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Jonss, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Buchanan, G. | Kelly, W. T. | Townend, A. E. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kennedy, T. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Compton, Joseph | Lawson, John James | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lunn, William | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Mackinder. W. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Dalton, Hugh | MacLaren, Andrew | Westwood, J. |
| Day, Harry | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Dunnico, H. | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Whiteley, W. |
| Edge, Sir William | Murnin, H. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Fenby, T. D. | Oliver, George Harold | Windsor, Walter |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Paling, W. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Gillett, George M. | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Grundy, T. W. | Potts, John S. | Mr. B. Smith and Mr. Hayes. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Glimour, Lt.-Cot. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Albery, Irving James | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Preston, William |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Goff, Sir Park | Radford, E. A. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Ramsden, E. |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Hammersley, S. S. | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Bethel, A. | Harland, A. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Harrison, G. J. C. | Ropner, Major L. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Hilton, Cecil | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Savery, S. S. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Buchan, John | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Lamb, J. Q. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Christie, J. A. | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Loder, J. de V. | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Long, Major Eric | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Lougher, Lewis | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Tinne, J. A. |
| Couper, J. B. | Lumley, L. R. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Daikeith, Earl of | McLean, Major A. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. | Macmillan, Captain H. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Margesson, Captain D. | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | Wells, S. R. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Williams, Com. G. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Ellis, R. G. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Falie, Sir Bertram G. | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Wragg, Herbert |
| Finburgh, S. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Oakley, T. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Fremantie, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Penny, Frederick George | Captain Viscount Curzon and |
| Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Captain Bowyer. |
| Ganzoni, Sir John. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
§ Mr. CHARLETONI beg to move, in page 9, line 2, to leave out the word "and."
As I mentioned when you called me just now, I propose, with your permission, Sir, to discuss this and my second Amendment—after "5" to insert "and 6"—together. I am supported by some hon. Friends opposite, notably one who presented a monster petition some time ago, largely, I have no doubt, signed by hon. Members opposite. We were all, of course, disappointed at the result. The petition was asking for a reduction in the horse-power tax and for the tax to be put on petrol. The Chancellor of the Exchequer obligingly put the tax on petrol but did not reduce the Motor Tax. This Amendment of mine refers to the Schedules and will give the Chancellor of the Exchequer an opportunity to complete the good work. By so doing, he will bring down on his head the blessings of thousands of motorists—many of whom I see smiling opposite—who signed that monster petition. I would suggest that the majority of the people who signed the petition were supporters of the Government. That seems to me a strong argument why he should meet me on this. I would also suggest to the Minister of Transport that this Amendment will not mean a loss to the Government. If he allows these few words to be inserted they will allow the Chancellor of the Exchequer to complete the good work. If you bring down the tax, as my further Amendment would provide for, then people who are on the margin of being able to afford a motor would come over the line and be able to run a motor, with the result that there would be a fillip to British industry which all of us greatly want. With the tax on motors they would most likely be British motors. These motorists would use more petrol and there would be the 4¼d. on petrol which we are all paying. That would also go to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I believe all this is a very desirable thing to do. By bringing down this tax we should bring more people into the sunlight. I can testify as one running about in the air and sunshine all my life to the benefit of it. I felt the difference when I had to live in this artificial atmosphere. I am sure there are many sickly clerks and other people employed in offices and vast warehouses who would be 462 healthier We would get back to the class of Al men who won Agincourt and Cressy and other battles long ago. This Amendment would have the support of all motorists. If the right hon. Gentle-man accepts it it would in some measure compensate motorists for what they have been paying on petrol.
§ Sir EDWARD ILIFFEI put my name down to this Amendment to enable an alteration to be made subsequently to the Schedule. The effective words are:
In the case of any vehicle the engine of which was constructed not less than five years before the date of licence, the duty shall be fifty per cent. of the duty otherwise charged under this paragraph.I would appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to grant this concession. I think everyone will agree that the Chanceller of the Exchequer has tested the motoring community pretty highly in regard both to petrol and licence duty. They have responded with considerable fortitude. The rebate would not be a very costly one and this alteration would benefit the user and the industry very considerably. Any Members who have endeavoured to sell their old cars will understand how difficult it is at the present time, for one is not selling an old car, one is selling a liability. One is selling a liability to pay a very considerable duty especially in the case of higher powered cars. I myself have a car which is 40 horsepower—it costs me £40 a year. I have been trying to sell it. I find I cannot get more for it than £50. Anyone buying it would be buying a liability. If a rebate is made in cases like that, many motorists will keep a car as a second string, and many others who cannot sell cars to-day will be able to sell them and purchase new cars. Therefore it will benefit both the motorists themselves and the industry. I hope the Minister will give this point careful consideration, and, even if he cannot give us this rebate now, I hope he will be able to say that he will consider it carefully for next year.
§ Colonel ASHLEYThe six names put down to this Amendment are a curious, combination of forces. The first three are hon. Members who sit on the Opposition side of the House, and the other three are hon. Members who sit on this 463 side of the House. I could not make out why they combined forces, but now I see that it is only in order to get a first or preliminary step in the Bill, and then they diverge on different elements when they get to the Schedule. As to the hon. Member for South Leeds (Mr. Charleton), he talked about motoring and other things, but he did not come to close grips with what his Amendment really means to the Schedule. It means the halving of the horse-power tax, which means a loss to the revenue of £5,750,000 in a full year. If this Amendment were passed and the Road Fund lost a quarter of its income, it would be perfectly impossible for me to continue the grants to the local authorities to help the rates at anything like the scale I am doing now. Much reconstruction would have to be put aside and the liabilities of the Fund would be so great that it could not meet them. I am quite sure the hon. Member himself does not seriously mean an Amendment to be passed which would entail a loss in a full year of £5,750,000. As regards the serious Amendment of the hon. Member for Tamworth (Sir E. Iliffe), that is a matter which has not been without consideration by the Government for this year. Strictly speaking, of course, from the roads point of view, there is nothing in it, because the old car does just as much damage to the roads as a new car. On the other hand, I do see his point. It is the considered opinion of many manufacturers and dealers that, if a reduction be given to cars over a certain number of years old, it would stimulate sales, would clear these cars out of the garages and shops where they are now kept, would therefore possibly increase the number of cars on the roads—though, by the same token, the profit from the extra petrol consumed would not go into the Road Fund but into the Exchequer—and would therefore enable more new cars to be built and to be purchased by the public. There is, of course, something to be said on the other side, but I do not see any advantage at this late hour in going into the merits of the case. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, however, has authorised me to say that we will go into the whole matter before next year's Budget, sympathetically. We do not say that we can do it, but we will consider it sympathetically and, if possible, we will do something 464 in the direction which the hon. Member desires. With regard to the Schedule, the idea underlying the new Schedule which we have been discussing is to mitigate in some degree the burden which has been placed on certain sections of the community by the 4d. tax on petrol. It seems to me that those who are most hit are the taxi-cabs and what are called the heavies—the chars-a-banc, omnibuses and heavy goods vehicles—and, therefore, when we come to the Schedules, I hope to show that, with the comparatively limited resources at our disposal, we have allocated the money to reducing the tax on taxi-cabs, omnibuses and chars-a-banc which are most hard hit by the Petrol Tax because they consume most petrol.
§ Mr. B. SMITHIt is hardly relevant for the Minister to say that he does not care to go into this because of the hour. When the original Act was brought in, all cars of a certain age—I think the year was 1913—were exempted from half the tax. There are some of those cars still running.
§ Colonel ASHLEYThat was not on the ground of age; it was on the ground of design.
§ Mr. SMITHIt was on the grounds of design and age. The fact remains that there was an exemption of 50 per cent.
§ Colonel ASHLEY25 per cent.
§ Mr. SMITHAn exemption of 25 per cent. of the tax on all cars manufactured in 1913 and before. Now there are old cars on the road and new designs have taken their place, leaving them heavily taxed by virtue of the horsepower, and we are asking that there should be some easement of taxation on that kind of vehicle. Hon. Members opposite continually tell us that they want to give some push to business. Obviously, if these cars were reduced in tax, the Revenue would benefit from a higher consumption of petrol, because these cars were not only expensive from the horsepower point of view, but they were heavy consumers of petrol. I ask the Minister not to promise us something for next year. Last year the Chancellor of the Exchequer said he would sympathetically consider the question of the horsepower tax. He has not considered it, but has added to it a 4d. petrol tax. The Minister says that the hardest hit people are 465 the taxicabs, and that some concession is made of £3 over the present £15.
§ Colonel ASHLEY£5.
§ Mr. SMITHYes, that is right. For taxicabs it is £5, but that reduction applies primarily to London. In the provinces they were paying £12 up to a year ago, and the difference therefore is only £2 in their case. With regard to the London taxicab, had there been any cohesion between the various Departments they would have seen that some equity prevailed in the incidence of this taxation. The Home Secretary has already reduced the fares. They have now added a 4d. tax on petrol, which is practically putting the industry out of existence. Many of the cabs are already old, and, if the Minister could grant the concession to the old cabs, it would in some measure recoup them for their losses. What has happened to the Road Fund? The Minister knows perfectly well that the Road Fund, as such, other than for maintenance, is practically nonexistent. I say definitely that we in London on the London Traffic Advisory Committee have £400,000 a year allocated from the Exchequer to do the whole work of London. Is that a fair recognition? We are to be limited in future, I think, to a sum of £150,000, and for the Minister to tell us that it will injure the Road Fund by granting this concession is to mislead the Committee. I will ask the Minister very seriously not to promise us something in the near future. The Government have to face another election shortly, and we hope they will not be returned in the strength they are now—in fact, you will not be the Government. But we would rather you made your bed right by removing many of the anomalies that at present exist.
§ Mr. HANNONI propose to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment that stands in my name—in page 9, line 3, at the end, to insert the words
and as if the rates of duties specified in paragraphs 1, 3, 5, and 6 of the said schedules other than rates less than one pound had been reduced by one-half in the case of a vehicle whereof the engine was constructed at least five years before the date of the issue of the licence.But, perhaps, I may be permitted to make one or two observations on the speech of the Minister. To wait until next year will not do very much for 466 motor manufacturers and agents who have large numbers of cars on hand that can only be disposed of by exchange of second-hand cars. Practically 80 per cent. of the sales effected in cars are effected in exchange for second-hand cars.
§ Mr. MACKINDERAre we to understand that the hon. Member is now speaking to the Amendment he is is asking leave to withdraw?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI think the hon. Member's Amendment to which he refers is one which would have been covered by one of these two Amendments taken together, and therefore he is in order in discussing it on this Amendment.
§ Mr. HANNONI said that I would ask leave presently to withdraw that Amendment. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport received a very influential deputation the other day from the whole of the motor trade of the country, and they made very clear and definite representations on the difficult position in which the industry found itself in the disposal of these second-hand cars. Neither the Chancellor of the Exchequer nor the Minister gave them very much encouragement, but on occasions of that kind the Minister's good nature and kindly consideration is always in inverse ratio to the practical concessions they make. This industry is very seriously handicapped, because of the difficulty of selling a large car with a heavy tax attached to it. Since the deputation to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, very exhaustive inquiries were made as to the extent second-hand cars were in stock, and after very careful examination the part of all sections of the motor trade, the loss to the revenue worked out at something like £379,000 on the total number of 50,000 cars in stock. I am very sorry my right hon. Friend has not seen his way to give us more encouragement.
§ Mr. CRAWFURDI desire to speak as shortly as possible. The Members of the Government and their supporters who are at the moment in a state of unconsciousness, make it rather a reflection on the way in which the affairs of this House ire being conducted on a very 467 important matter. I should like, however, to take this opportunity of expressing my own very great gratification on hearing the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon) for the first occasion make a speech calculated to help British trade. I think his contribution to this Debate has been most valuable. The hon. Member for Tamworth (Sir E. Iliffe), in his appeal, said he hoped for a graceful gesture from the right hon. Gentleman. Any gesture from the right hon. Gentleman will be graceful, but I will also remind him of what the hon. Member for Rotherhithe (Mr. B. Smith) has said, that something done this year is better than something promised next year. Four years ago, in response to a Clause which I moved on the same lines as the present Schedule, the then representative of the Ministry of Transport made the same kind of promise that sympathetic consideration would be given by the Government—the same Government.
We have all listened to the right hon. Gentleman, and I venture to say that everything he has said has been a criticism of his own action, or rather inaction
§ two or three years ago. We warned him at the time that those who carried purses should be very careful about the company they keep. The whole of the right hon. Gentleman's speech this morning could be answered by saying that if he had only been a proper guardian of the fund of which he was trustee there would have been plenty of money. After three or four years consistently hammering the Transport Ministry and the Government, in the last year of office all they propose to do is to put it off for one year. It is disappointing that this proposal, which is universally wanted and asked for by the motor trade, and which everyone in the motor trade says will definitely do more for that trade than any other Measure can possibly do, cannot be accepted, presumably because the right hon. Gentleman cannot spare the £5,750,000 that it will cost. More than £5,750,000 has been taken by his colleague, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If he had defended that money, he would have been in a better position.
§ Question put, "That the word 'and' stand part of the Clause.
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 135; Noes, 59.
469| Division No. 207.] | AYES. | [4.45 a.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Lynn, Sir R. J. |
| Albery, Irving James | Ellis, R. G. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Everard, W. Lindsay | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | McLean, Major A. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Macmillan, Captain H. |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Finburgh, S. | MacRobert, Alexander M. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Fraser, Captain Ian | Margesson, Captain D. |
| Bethel, A. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Ganzoni, Sir John. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Blundell, F. N. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Goff, Sir Park | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Neville, Sir Reginald J. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Hammersley, S. S. | Oakley, T. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Penny, Frederick George |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Harland, A. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Harrison, G. J. C. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Preston, William |
| Christie, J. A. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Radford, E. A. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Hilton, Cecil | Ramsden, E. |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'te'y) |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Couper, J. B. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Ropner, Major L. |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Lamb, J. Q. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, putney) |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Daikeith, Earl of | Loder, J. de V. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Long, Major Eric | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Lougher, Lewis | Savery, S. S. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Lumley, L. R. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Spender-Clay, Colonel H. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Stanley, Lord (Fylde) | Wallace, Captain D. E. | Wood, E. (Chester, staly'b'ge & Hyde) |
| Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) | Waterhouse, Captain Charles | Wragg, Herbert |
| Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Watts, Sir Thomas | |
| Sugden, Sir Wilfrid | Wells, S. R. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) | Captain Bowyer and Sir Victor Warrender. |
| Tinne, J. A. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) | |
| Titchfield, Major the Marquess of | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Hayday, Arthur | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Scurr, John |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hirst, G. H. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Batey, Joseph | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Bromfield, William | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Kelly, W. T. | Townend, A. E. |
| Buchanan, G. | Kennedy, T. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Lawson, John James | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Compton, Joseph | Lunn, William | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Mackinder, W. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Crawford, H. E. | MacLaren, Andrew | Westwood, J. |
| Dalton, Hugh | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Day, Harry | Malone, C. L'Estrange, (N'thampton) | Whiteley, W. |
| Dunnico, H. | Murnin, H. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Fenby, T. D. | Oliver, George Harold | Windsor, Walter |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Paling, W. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Gillett, George M. | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Grundy, T. W. | Potts, John S. | Mr. Hayes and Mr. B. Smith. |
| Hardie, George D. | Purcell, A. A. |
§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERI beg to move, in page 9, line 3, at the end, to insert the words
and as if at the end of sub-section (4) thereof there were inserted the following: 'or for the removal of refuse or the cleansing, watering, or repairing of streets'.This is a matter which has been raised before on behalf of the municipalities.
§ Colonel ASHLEYIt is said that the continual dripping of water will wear away a stone, but I cannot admit that the continual presentation of the arguments in favour of this Amendment makes the arguments better. Candidly, I do not think the hon. Gentleman expects me to accept this Amendment. We have in former years, for reasons, be they good or bad, exempted fire engines and ambulances to some extent from taxation on the ground that they use the roads very little, and now the hon. Member comes along and says "include all scavenger service and municipal carts." I do not see why they should be exempted if they use the roads as much as similar vehicles employed by contractors. It would be very unfair, if they did the same work, that the contractor should have to pay the tax and not the municipality. Therefore, I cannot see my way to accept the Amendment.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSThe reply is scarcely a full reply. When the Minister 470 compares the contractor with the municipality, he forgets that the contractor may be working in the area of one municipality to-day and in another area tomorrow, while municipal vehicles of this description operate entirely in the area of the one municipality and use only the roads of that municipality. It seems to me a logical argument that they should not be called upon to pay the same tax as ordinary vehicles, since no provision is forthcoming from the Minister of Transport to help to maintain the roads within the area of the municipality in which these vehicles are employed.
§ Colonel ASHLEYIf they are first or second-claims roads, they are helped substantially.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSThe right hon. and gallant Gentleman is aware that there are many districts where the contribution is infinitesimal, and the vehicles, travelling as they do in all kinds of back streets, and so forth, are seldom on first-or second-class roads. It seems grossly unfair that, if the vehicles are used exclusively for sanitary purposes within the area, they should be called upon to pay the same taxation. They have no benefit from the Road Fund. I think the right hon. and gallant Gentleman ought to encourage the use of these vehicles, and, by doing so, encourage cleanliness to a far greater extent 471 than at present. A small contribution of this kind would be thankfully received, and the right hon. and gallant Gentleman ought not to resist this Amendment merely because he happens to have resisted it in years gone by. Local authorities have approached him before, but the reply has always been the question of money. That ought not to bar the way. Having given the concession to the fire engines and the ambulances, he might extend it to these vehicles within the area of the local authorities. It would be a small loss to the revenue, but a large gain to the municipalities.
§ Mr. PALINGThe right hon. and gallant Gentleman said that the dropping
§ of water could wear away a stone. I suppose he is the stone. If the argument put up by him is the best he can do, I do not think that it is a very good one. He referred to the municipalities and the contractors, but he forgot that a contractor does not do the job for the sake of cleaning the road. He does it, first, for profit. If he did not get any profit, he would not do it. The municipality has to do it, profit or no profit. I think it is strictly logical to grant relief in the case of these particular vehicles that keep the roads in a fit condition for other users.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 59; Noes, 134.
473| Division No. 208.] | AYES. | [5.0 a.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Hayday, Arthur | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hayes, John Henry | Scurr, John |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Batey, Joseph | Hirst, G. H. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Bromfield, William | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Buchanan, G. | Kelly, W. T. | Townend, A. E. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kennedy, T | Varley, Frank B. |
| Compton, Joseph | Lawson, John James | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lunn, William | Watts-Morgan, Lt. Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Mackinder, W. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Dalton, Hugh | MacLaren, Andrew | Westwood, J. |
| Day, Harry | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Dunnico, H. | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Fenby, T. D. | Murnin, H. | Windsor, Walter |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Oliver, George Harold | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Gillett, George M. | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Grundy, T. W. | Potts, John S. | Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Paling. |
| Hardie, George D. | Purcell, A. A. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Curzon, Captain Viscount | Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Dalkeith, Earl of | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Hilton, Cecil |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Dawson, Sir Phillip | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) |
| Bethel, A. | Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorkt, W. R., Skipton) | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Ellis, R. G. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas |
| Blundell, F. N. | Everard, W. Lindsay | Lamb, J. Q. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | ||
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Fade, Sir Bertram G. | Loder, J. de V. Long, Major Eric |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Finburgh, S. | Lougher, Lewis |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Fraser, Captain Ian | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Lumley, L. R. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Ganzoni, Sir John | Lynn, Sir R. J. |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen |
| Christie, J. A. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Goff, Sir Park | McLean, Major A. |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Gunston, Captain D. W. | MacMillan, Captain H. |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | MacRobert, Alexander M. |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Hammersley, S. S. | Margesson, Capt. D. |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. |
| Couper, J. B. | Harland, A. | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Harrison, G. J. C. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Head lam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Sandeman, N. Stewart | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Sanders, Sir Robert A. | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Oakley, T. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Penny, Frederick George | Savery, S. S. | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Shepperson, E. W. | Wells, S. R. |
| Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Power, Sir John Cecil | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Preston, William | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Radford, E. A. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Raine, Sir Walter | Stanley, Lord (Fyide) | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Ramsden, E. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) | Wragg, Herbert |
| Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | |
| Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) | Captain Bowyer and Sir Victor Warrender. |
| Ropner, Major L. | Tinne, J. A. | |
| Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A |
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ Mr. ALEXANDERIs there not another Amendment on the 'Paper—in page 9, line 3, at the end, to add the words:
and as if the rates of duties specified in paragraphs 1, 3, 5, and 6 of the said schedules other than rates less than one pound had been reduced by one-half in the case of a vehicle whereof the engine was constructed at least five years before the date of the issue of the licence
§ Colonel ASHLEYIt was covered by the Amendment relating to five years.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe Amendment is not identical, but it is so similar to the one which has already been negatived that I do not propose to select it.
§ Mr. ALEXANDERI would have thought that the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon) would have been the last to run away from the Amendment standing on the Paper in connection with this Clause.
§ Mr. HANNONThe Chairman has just ruled that my Amendment was covered by a preceding one.
§ Mr. ALEXANDERThe hon. Member for Moseley was not very anxious. It seemed to me a very great pity that the Minister of Transport did not regard this matter with more sympathy. I have heard some expressions of feeling by the trade in the last few months. It is be-
§ coming exceedingly difficult for the trade, because of the increasing glut of second hand cans. What we wanted to do was to try to make it easier for people to undertake the maintenance of cars and so make room for the sale of new cars. It seems to me that the Minister of Transport has not been a very great aid to the motor industry in this matter. First he Jailed to stand up to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he ought to do as the Minister of Transport, when the Road Fund has been repeatedly raided. Then when the motorists want futher help by making it easier to deal with second hand cars he is quite content to go on asking them for what are, in the circumstances, extortionate duties to be levied on cars of this kind. I do not think that that is the line that the Minister of Transport ought to take. He ought to see that the funds which are subscribed by the owners of vehicles are used for the purpose for which they are subscribed, and he ought to see that the people who are able to take up second hand cars should have the advantage of reduced terms so far as the duty is concerned. I regret that it is not possible to state the case as fully as I should like, because of the unfortunate hour at which we are forced to discuss it. I desire to register my protest at the manner in which the matter has been dealt with.
§ Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 133; Noes, 59.
475| Division No. 209.] | AYES. | [5.12 a.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Bethel, A. | Bourne, Captain Robert Croft |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Bowyer, Capt G. E. W. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Braithwaite, Major A. N. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Briscoe, Richard George |
| Astor, Maj. Hon. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Blundell, F. N. | Brocklebank, C. E. R. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Boothby, R. J. G. | Bullock, Captain M. |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Hilton, Cecil | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Christie, J. A. | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Ropner, Major L. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Hudson, R. S. (Cmuberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Cope, Major Sir William | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Couper, J. B. | Lamb, J. Q. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Savery, S. S. |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Loder, J. de V. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Long, Major Eric | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Lougher, Lewis | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Lumley, L. R. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Ellis, R. G. | McLean, Major A. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.) |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Macmillan, Captain H. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Finburgh, S. | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Gadie, Lieut.-col. Anthony | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Wells, S. R. |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Goff, Sir Park | Oakley, T. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Penny, Frederick George | Womersley, W. J. |
| Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Wragg, Herbert |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Power, Sir John Cecil | |
| Harland, A. | Preston, William | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Harrison, G. J. C. | Radford, E. A. | Captain Margesson and Major the |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Raine, Sir Walter | Marquess of Titchfield. |
| Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Ramsden, E. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Hayday, Arthur | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hayes, John Henry | Scurr, John |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Batey, Joseph | Hirst, G. H. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Bromfield, William | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Buchanan, G. | Kelly, W. T. | Townend, A. E. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kennedy, T. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Compton, Joseph | Lawson, John James | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lunn, William | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Mackinder, W. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Dalton, Hugh | MacLaren, Andrew | Westwood, J. |
| Day, Harry | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Dunnico, H. | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'tharnpton) | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Fenby, T. D. | Murnin, H. | Windsor, Walter |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Oliver, George Harold | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Gillett, George M. | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Grundy, T. W. | Potts, John S. | Mr. Paling and Mr. Whiteley. |
| Hardie, George D. | Purcell, A. A. |