§ 8s. 10d. 8s. 10½d. 9s. 9½d. 9s. 10d.
§ there shall be substituted—
§ 8s. 6d. 8s. 6½d. 9s. 5½d. 9s. 6d.—[Mr. Hardie.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ Mr. HARDIE
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
Some Members of the Committee may have some difficulty in realising to what these figures in the Clause apply. My reason for not including the word "tobacco" is that as a smoker I do not want to tell lies about anything, and many things are now being sold under that name which bear little or no relation to what we understood in the past toy the word "tobacco." To-day we have been dealing with the Surtax and the Super-tax, we have been up among the cigar areas, among the high falutin', high paying people, and it is not at all a bad thing to bring the Committee down to the question of the ordinary-man's pipe of tobacco. I am not asking for a very great reduction, and I am moving this Clause in order to ascertain whether the Government will take steps to secure that when the Chancellor is taxing tobacco he is taxing something other than a name. When he taxed artificial silk he only taxed a name, because nobody can tell what artificial silk is. If the Government claim the right to take money from people who use the weed, the Government ought to come along with some specification of tobacco, so that people may know that they are getting what they are paying for. We have a definition of proof 1310 spirit, and it is laid down that spirits must have a certain alcoholic content, and if that stipulation is necessary in the case of spirits it is equally necessary in the case of tobacco. To-day the duty is being applied to substances which are a mere concoction and not tobacco at all, and I hope the Chancellor will be able to devise some guarantee as to the nature of that which is being taxed. There may be people interested in the tobacco trade in this House who can tell us something about tobacco, and, if they can tell us what is not tobacco, they will be doing a great service to the public. Recently, we had some instances given of what was alleged to be tobacco that comes under this tax.
I think the hon. Member is arguing as to the standard of purity of tobacco, but I do not see anything in this Clause which promotes purity.
§ Mr. HARDIE
The whole Clause should promote purity in tobacco, but, when you find shavings and sawdust in tobacco, that is not promoting purity.
§ Mr. HARDIE
Surely I am within my rights in saying that as we are being asked to pay these charges we should have some guarantee that the article sold is according to what is printed on the label.
That might be a subject for discussion on the Food and Drugs Act, or the hon. Member might bring in a Bill under the Ten Minute Rule, but what he is dealing with has nothing to do with the Amendment.
§ Mr. HARDIE
As the stuff I am dealing with is a poison, perhaps I shall be able to bring it in under the Poisons Act.
The hon. Member seems to be applying to tobacco the arguments used by the hon. Member for the Royton Division (Dr. Davies) with regard to tea, but whether tobacco is a healthy narcotic stimulant or a poison is not affected by this new Clause, and the hon. Member cannot continue on those lines.
§ Mr. HARDIE
The Act says that what is dealt with is tobacco, and is it fair that something which is not tobacco should be used as the means of bringing in this revenue?
I have referred the hon. Member to his proper remedy, and if he wishes to continue, he can move his new Clause if he supports it with arguments which are relative to his proposal.
§ Mr. HARDIE
I think it is time that something should be done to reduce the cost of what is going to be taxed under this Clause. I think this article ought to be much cheaper. We have been listening to arguments from hon. Members who can afford cigars at 2s. 6d. or 5s. each, and they have been addressing themselves to the Super-tax, but I am pleading that something should be done for the pipe smoker, and I want more interest taken in the subject with which we are now dealing.
§ Mr. STEPHEN MITCHELL
It is not often that I inflict myself on this Committee, but, as hon. Members may be aware, I have some little knowledge of this subject, and therefore I should be lacking in my duty if I did not make one or two comments on the new Clause. It may be well if I make it perfectly clear what it is that this new Clause tries to do. It tries to reduce the duty on tobacco by fourpence per pound. I think it may be rather refreshing to the Opposition to realise that the few comments which I have to make are not entirely in praise of those who are responsible for the increase in the Tobacco Duty or for the over-production of Empire tobacco which this country cannot possibly consume.
The Committee will remember perfectly well that last year the Chancellor of the Exchequer imposed an additional tax of eightpence per pound on tobacco, bringing the total duty up to 8s. 10d. per pound or 6½d. per ounce, or approximately a duty of threepence on a packet of 10 cigarettes and sixpence on a packet of 20. I should like to draw the attention of the House to the amount of duty which the working men and women of this country are paying to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I am going into a few figures which, I hope, will not weary 1312 the Committee. Take, for example, the man who smokes two ounces of tobacco per week—a very small allowance. He is paying the Exchequer £2 17s. per annum. Take for example the man or woman who smokes a packet of 10 cigarettes per day—not a very large amount.
I believe they contain the ingredient of paper. On referring to the relative Schedule I find that the tax is on tobacco alone and not on cigars and cigarettes. This particular Amendment deals only with unmanufactured tobacco, and not with tobacco in the form of cigarettes or cigars.
§ Mr. MITCHELL
I would submit that we are proposing to reduce the tax on unmanufactured tobacco from 8s. 10d. per lb. by 4d., and before you can manufacture cigarettes you have got to pay 8s. 10d. at the present moment.
That may be, but the argument as to the cost of cigarettes can surely be considered in relation to the quantity of tobacco in them and not the extra tax.
§ Mr. MITCHELL
I submit that the cost of the duty affects the cost of the cigarette to the smoking public and therefore the question whether you should have a cheaper cigarette——
If the hon. Member will confine his argument to the amount of tobacco included in the cigarette without reference to the extra tax on it or to the paper which encircles it he will be in order.
§ Mr. MITCHELL
With all due respect, if you will submit to me a particular size of cigarette I can give the quantity of tobacco or paper in it. I was trying to bring out the fact that the man or woman in this country who consumes a packet of 10 cigarettes per day is paying tax to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the extent of some £3 14s. per annum, and, if the tobacco manufacturers had not come to the rescue of the Chancellor of the Exchequer last year by bearing entirely the increase in duty, the cigarette 1313 smoker in this country would have been paying at the moment to the Chancellor of the Exchequer some £3 19s. per annum. The right hon. Gentleman in his Budget speech last year, when speaking on the increase in the Tobacco Duty, made the following statement:This increased tax"—that is to say, the increase of 8d. per pound—will, I estimate, produce £3,400,000 in a full year, and £3,100,000 in 1927."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th April, 1928; col. 93, Vol. 205.]I had the audacity then to suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he had under-estimated the amount of tax which would be received, and I told him that he would receive a very much larger sum in additional duty. What are the facts? For greater accuracy I have taken the trouble to obtain the figures from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, and they are very astounding figures. They show that the value of the duty collected from Empire and non-Empire tobacco for the year ending March, 1927, was approximately £03,000,000; and I have figures also from the Financial Secretary showing that, for the year ending March, 1928, the Chancellor has received £73,000,000 by way of duty, or an increase of some £10,000,000, whereas the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated——
I cannot help thinking that the hon. Member is giving figures for tobacco manufactured and unmanufactured: but this proposed new Clause deals only with unmanufactured tobacco.
§ Mr. MITCHELL
I have mentioned that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for the 12 months ending March, 1928, received a revenue from Empire and non-Empire tobacco, unmanufactured, of £73,000,000——
If the hon. Member's figures relate only to unmanufactured tobacco, he is perfectly in order.
§ Mr. MITCHELL
I assure you, Sir, that, so far as the duty on tobacco is concerned, it is always paid before the tobacco can be manufactured. The tobacco is put into bond, and it is only after the duty has been paid that it can be manufactured. The Chancellor of the Exchequer estimated that he would 1314 receive £3,400,000 by way of extra revenue from the Tobacco Duty, whereas he has obtained £10,000,000, or a surplus of some £7,000,000. Are we to congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this great windfall which, apparently, he did not expect, or are we to sympathise and condole with him on being surrounded by experts who gave him this very inaccurate information? No one can blame the Chancellor of the Exchequer for these inaccuracies, but we blame other people, and I venture to say that in the commercial world, if a man of business found that his experts were giving him estimates which were over 200 per cent. out, he would spend a considerable amount of time and a considerable part of his energy in setting his house in order. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget speech kept very dark about this colossal increase in the tobacco revenue. He said very little about it. He said:The increased duty upon tobacco more than realised our expectations. That is certainly satisfactory when we remember that cigarettes which comprise three-fourths of the tobacco consumption, have not been increased in price."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th April, 1928; cols. 837–8, Vol. 216.]We had a most eloquent and refreshing speech from the right hon. Gentleman on the Budget which lasted for some four hours. To tobacco, which is bringing him a revenue of over £73,000,000 a year, the Chancellor devoted exactly 31 words. I want to draw the attention of the Committee to the pipe smoker. The tobacco manufacturers came to the rescue of the cigarette smoker, and bore the burden entirely, but they did not come to the rescue of the pipe smoker. Let us see what the pipe smoker has to bear. The total population of the country is in the neighbourhood of 40,000,000. The smoking public is in the neighbourhood of 20,000,000. The pipe smoker is, 25 per cent.; therefore 5,000,000 people are pipe smokers, and they have contributed £2,500,000 annually of this additional tax to the Chancellor which works out at 10s. per head. It will depend entirely on the reply I get from the Government how I cast my vote.
§ Major ELLIOT
I quite sympathise with the desire of the hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie) for purity in tobacco, but I cannot reply to his argument on that point, because there is 1315 nothing in the Amendment which would in any way effect the object he has in view. It is, therefore, impossible to reply without being out of order. I should have thought the hon. Member, whose Parliamentary skill and ingenuity are the envy of us all, would have been able to find some method of raising the subject which would allow me to develop the theme. [Interruption.] I was explaining to hon. Members opposite and to my hon. Friend the Member for Spring-burn that it was impossible for me to pursue him into the vicissitudes of his argument, and therefore I must go to the merits of the new Clause which he moved. Upon that, I should just wish to say that the result of the decrease of the Tobacco Duties which he proposes would be a loss to the Exchequer which is estimated at over £1,500,000 in 1928–29 and over £2,250,000 in a full year.
§ Major ELLIOT
It would be £2,250,000 less than we should have left if we did not remit the duty, and that is the important point which we have to consider. My hon. Friend the Member for Lanark (Mr. S. Mitchell) addressed a most eloquent appeal to the Government with regard to the price at which tobacco was at present being sold and also went so
§ far as to say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was raising an unconscionable sum in revenue from the smokers of this country. I observe that the company of which he is so distinguished an ornament has raised as much as £8,000,000 in a single year from the smokers of this country.
§ Major ELLIOT
I suggest that the merits of private enterprise are not to be measured by the dividend which the company was able to pay, but, be that as it may, I will not pursue that argument either. I will merely say that it is within the power of the tobacco companies themselves to make considerable reductions in the price of tobacco, and it is not possible for us to make any concession in regard to this, and certainly not to make any concession which will have the result of losing perhaps £2,500,000 to the Exchequer in a single year, without a guarantee that a penny of that amount would pass into the pockets of the pipe smokers for whom this reduction has been asked. I ask the Committee to reject this Clause.
§ Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 121; Noes, 225.1319
|Division No. 233.]||AYES.||[11.8 p.m.|
|Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)||Forrest, W.||Kirkwood, D.|
|Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)||Gardner, J. P.||Lansbury, George|
|Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')||Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.||Lawrence, Susan|
|Ammon, Charles George||Gibbins, Joseph||Lawson, John James|
|Attlee, Clement Richard||Gillett, George M.||Lindley, F. W.|
|Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)||Gosling, Harry||Limn, William|
|Barnes, A.||Graham, Rt. Hon. Win. (Edin., Cent.)||MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)|
|Batey, Joseph||Greenall, T.||Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)|
|Briant, Frank||Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)||Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)|
|Broad, F. A.||Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)||March, S.|
|Bromfield, William||Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)||Maxton, James|
|Bromley, J.||Groves, T.||Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)|
|Brown, Ernest (Leith)||Grundy, T. W.||Murnin, H.|
|Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)||Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)||Naylor, T. E.|
|Buchanan, G.||Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)||Oliver, George Harold|
|Charleton, H. C.||Hardle, George D.||Palin, John Henry|
|Cluse, W. S||Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon||Paling, W.|
|Cove, W. G.||Hayday, Arthur||Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)|
|Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)||Henderson, T. (Glasgow)||Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.|
|Crawfurd, H. E.||Hirst, G. H.||Ponsonby, Arthur|
|Dalton, Hugh||Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)||Potts, John S.|
|Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)||Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)||Rees, Sir Beddoe|
|Dennison, R.||Hutchison. Sir Robert (Montrose)||Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)|
|Duckworth, John||Jenkins. W. (Glamorgan, Neath)||Riley, Ben|
|Duncan, C.||John, William (Rhondda, West)||Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)|
|Dunnico, H.||Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)||Robinson, W. C. (York, W. R., Elland)|
|Edge, Sir William||Jones. Henry Haydn (Merioneth)||Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)|
|Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwelity)||Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)||Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter|
|England, Colonel A.||Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)||Salter, Dr. Alfred|
|Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)||Kelly, W. T.||Scrymgeour, E.|
|Fenby, T. D.||Kennedy, T.||Scurr, John|
|Sexton, James||Stamford, T. W.||Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)|
|Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)||Stephen, Campbell||Wellock, Wilfred|
|Shepherd, Arthur Lewis||Strauss. E. A.||Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.|
|Shiels, Dr. Drummond||Sutton, J. E.||Wiggins, William Martin|
|Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)||Thurtle, Ernest||Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)|
|Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)||Tinker, John Joseph||Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)|
|Slesser, Sir Henry H.||Tomlinson, R. P.||Windsor, Walter|
|Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)||Varley, Frank B.||Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)|
|Snell, Harry||Viant, S. P.|
|Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip||Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)||TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—|
|Mr. Hayes and Mr. Whiteley.|
|Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel||Eills, R. G.||Meyer, Sir Frank|
|Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.||Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)||Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-|
|Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles||Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)||Mitchell. S. (Lanark, Lanark)|
|Albery, Irving James||Everard, W. Lindsay||Moles, Rt. Hon. Thomas|
|Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)||Fairfax, Captain J. G.||Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.|
|Allen, Sir J. Sandeman||Falls, Sir Bertram G.||Moore, Sir Newton J.|
|Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.||Fanshawe, Captain G. D.||Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.|
|Applin, Colonel R. V. K.||Fermoy, Lord||Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph|
|Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.||Fielden, E. B.||Nelson, Sir Frank|
|Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.||Fraser, Captain Ian||Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)|
|Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)||Galbraith, J. F. W.||Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)|
|Astor, Viscountess||Ganzoni, Sir John||Nuttall, Ellis|
|Atkinson, C.||Gates, Percy||O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)|
|Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley||Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John||O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh|
|Barclay-Harvey C. M.||Goff, Sir Park||Oman, Sir Charles William C.|
|Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.||Gower, Sir Robert||Pennefather, Sir John|
|Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)||Grace, John||Penny, Frederick George|
|Bennett, A. J.||Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)||Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)|
|Betterton, Henry B.||Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)||Perkins, Colonel E. K.|
|Bevan, S. J.||Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John||Philipson, Mabel|
|Birchall, Major J. Dearman||Grotrian, H. Brent||Pitcher, G.|
|Blundell, F. N.||Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.||Power, Sir John Cecil|
|Boothby, R. J. G.||Hacking, Douglas H.||Pownall, Sir Assheton|
|Bourne, Captain Robert Croft||Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)||Preston, William|
|Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.||Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)||Price, Major C. W. M.|
|Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.||Hamilton, Sir George||Radford, E. A.|
|Braithwaite, Major A. N.||Hammersley, S. S.||Raine, Sir Walter|
|Brassey, Sir Leonard||Hanbury, C.||Ramsden, E.|
|Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive||Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry||Held, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)|
|Briscoe, Richard George||Harland, A.||Remer, J. R.|
|Brittain, Sir Harry||Harrison, G. J. C.||Rentoul, G. S.|
|Brocklebank, C. E. R.||Hartington, Marquess of||Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)|
|Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)||Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)||Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)|
|Buchan, John||Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)||Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell|
|Buckingham, Sir H.||Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian||Ropner, Major L.|
|Bullock, Captain M.||Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.||Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.|
|Burman, J. B.||Henn, Sir Sydney H.||Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)|
|Burton, Colonel H. W.||Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.||Salmon, Major I.|
|Butt, Sir Alfred||Holt, Captain H. P.||Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)|
|Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward||Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)||Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)|
|Campbell. E. T.||Hopkins, J. W. W.||Sandeman, N. Stewart|
|Carver, Major W. H.||Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.||Sanders, Sir Robert A.|
|Cazalet, Captain Victor A.||Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)||Sanderson, Sir Frank|
|Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Alton)||Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)||Sandon, Lord|
|Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton||Hurd, Percy A.||Savory, S. S.|
|Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer||Iliffe, Sir Edward M.||Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie|
|Churchman, Sir Arthur C.||Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.||Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)|
|Cobb, Sir Cyril||Iveagh, Countess of||Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)|
|Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.||Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)||Sheffield, Sir Berkeley|
|Conway, Sir W. Martin||James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert||Shepperson, E. W.|
|Cooper, A. Duff||Jephcott, A. R.||Skelton, A. N.|
|Couper, J. B.||Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)||Slaney, Major P. Kenyon|
|Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.||King, Commodore Henry Douglas||Smithers, Waldron|
|Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)||Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement||Spender-Clay, Colonel H.|
|Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)||Knox, Sir Alfred||Sprot, Sir Alexander|
|Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)||Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.||Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.|
|Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)||Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)||Stanley, Lord (Fylde)|
|Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)||Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)||Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)|
|Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)||Loder. J. de V.||Steel, Major Samuel Strang|
|Curzon, Captain Viscount||Long, Major Eric||Storry-Deans, R.|
|Dalkeith, Earl of||Lougher, Lewis||Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)|
|Davidson. Major-General Sir John H.||Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman||Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser|
|Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)||McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus||Sugden, Sir Wilfrid|
|Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)||McLean, Major A.||Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)|
|Dawson, Sir Philip||Macmillan, Captain H.||Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell|
|Dixey, A. C.||Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm||Titchfield, Major the Marquess of|
|Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert||MacRobert, Alexander M.||Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement|
|Drewe, C.||Manningham-Buller. Sir Mervyn||Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.|
|Edmondson, Major A. J.||Margesson, Captain D.||Waddington, R.|
|Elliot, Major Walter E.||Mason, Colonel Glyn K.||Wallace, Captain D. E.|
|Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.||Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)||Woodcock, Colonel H. C.|
|Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otlay)||Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)||Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.|
|Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)||Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)||Wragg, Herbert|
|Watts, Sir Thomas||Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George|
|Wayland, Sir William A.||Womersley, W. J.||TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—|
|Wells, S. R.||Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'gs & Hyda)||Major Sir William Cope and|
|Sir Victor Warrender.|