HC Deb 19 December 1928 vol 223 cc3114-9
Mr. LOOKER

I beg to move, in page 27, line 19, after the word "payments," to insert the words "by quarterly instalments."

Under this Clause of the Bill the county council has to make contributions to the moneys expended by the district authorities, and the object of this Amendment is to make those contributions payable by quarterly instalments which, if I am accurately informed, is the practice followed in many instances at the present time. Undoubtedly that would be for the convenience of district authorities, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will accept the Amendment.

Colonel ASHLEY

This Clause is taken out of the Draft Road Traffic Bill which I circulated for consideration some 18 months ago and it was, I understand, an agreed Clause among the local authorities concerned. It corresponds also with the oonditions in the Act of 1888, but I have no particular objection myself either to quarterly payments of half-yearly payments or annual payments.

Sir E. TURTON

Half-yearly.

Colonel ASHLEY

I think the best thing to do would be for me to find out between now and the Report stage what is the general view of the various associations concerned, and I will undertake, if they will make up their minds, to do what they decide they wish to be done. I hope my hon. Friend will withdraw the Amendment.

Sir E. TURTON

I think it would be found more convenient if it were arranged that these payments should be made half-yearly, but I quite accept what the right hon. Gentleman has said.

Mr. LOOKER

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following Amendment stood on the Order Paper in the name of Mr. SOMERVILLE:

In page 27, line 21, after the word "improvement," to insert the words "including widenings."

The CHAIRMAN

I think that for technical reasons this Amendment would hardly come in on the first Sub-section of the Clause.

Mr. CRAWFURD

Does the expression "improvement" include "widening"?

The CHAIRMAN

In Sub-section (1, a) it states that the county council shall make payments towards the cost of any reasonable improvement connected with the maintenance and repair of the road. While I think that the words "connected with the maintenance and re- pair" would not include the widening, yet lower down in the Clause there is a reference to a contribution towards the expenses of improvement of a road not being expenses in connection with the maintenance and repair of the road. That presumably would be an improvement. I do not wish to shut out the hon. Member if some special point is raised, and I think the next Amendment would he in order.

Mr. SOMERVILLE

I beg to move, in page 27, line 25, after the word "improvement," to insert the words "including widenings."

The object of this Amendment is to make it quite clear that the county council should contribute to the cost of land necessary for widening a road. In some cases the county council refuse to contribute to the cost of the necessary land, and will make a contribution only to the road.

Colonel ASHLEY

I really think, in fact I am sure, that this Amendment is unnecessary, because the widening would clearly be an improvement; therefore these words are redundant and will give no greater strength to the Clause.

Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE

In a previous Clause I raised the point of whether "care and maintenance" included an improvement. I understand now that the county council will be empowered to make a contribution to the district authorities in respect of an improvement and widening scheme.

Mr. TOMLINSON

May I ask if the widening in this case would include the acquisition of land for the widening? I recall a case in an urban district with which I have been associated all my life, where the district council were widening a main road and the county council did not wish to incur any expenditure on the acquisition of land—on which there was a good deal of property—saying that this was properly an expenditure for the local authority. In another part of this Clause power is given to the Minister to determine to what extent an improvement is a local improvement, or whether it is necessary in the interest of the road. I remember that in the case to which I have referred the county first declined to make any contribution towards the cost of acquiring the property. This was valued at £4,000 or £5,000 and was in a small urban district of which the assessable value was only £22,000. The county council were of opinion that it was a town's improvement. But when the circumstances were further explained to the main road committee and to the Road Board the opposite view was taken, and it was recognised that although it would lead to an improvement in the town it would not be necessary to undertake the improvement were it not for the through traffic along the road. I urge the Minister to accept the Amendment.

Major PRICE

I also would press the Minister to accept this Amendment. Sub-section (1, a) empowers the county council to make annual payments towards the cost of the maintenance and repair, and any reasonable improvement connected with the maintenance and repair, of the road. That is not any reasonable improvement which you may make to the road, but only a reasonable improvement in connection with the maintenance and repair of the road.

The CHAIRMAN

We are not considerign that Amendment. The Amendment we are considering is in Sub-section (1, b).

Major PRICE

I think the same argument applies to Sub-section (1, b), because there can be an improvement over which there would be very much dispute between the local authority and the county council as to whether it actually came within the ambit of this particular Sub-section or was outside it. If the words of the Amendment are included it would make the position quite clear, and we should avoid disputes.

Colonel ASHLEY

I rather think that hon. Members are discovering a mare's nest in this connection. If the Committee will turn to the definition Clause, on page 96 of the Bill, they will see that it states: 'Road' means a highway repairable by the inhabitants at large, and includes bridges, and 'improvements' in relation to a road includes the fixing of a building line or improvement line under any enactment. This definition shows that "improvement" has a very wide meaning in this connection. Under Sub-section (1, a) the annual payment is made towards the reasonable improvement connected with the maintenance and repair. that is, the usual repair and maintenance of a road; and then, in Sub-section (1, b), we say that the county council shall contribute towards the expenses of any improvement of the road, not being expenses in connection with the maintenance and repair of the road, to such an extent As, failing agreement, may be determined by the Minister of Transport. That indicates that the expenses of the improvement of a road are additional to the ordinary maintenance and care, and undoubtedly, in my opinion, the term improvement would include widening, which is the point raised by my hon. Friend, and therefore I submit that the Amendment is unnecessary.

Mr. CRAWFURD

The Minister's reference to the definition Clause has convinced me that in my earlier interpellation I was Wrong. But I understand that the fixing of a building line does not necessarily mean the actual work of widening the road. The Minister, I gather, is entirely in agreement with the views advanced by hon. Members opposite and upon this side of the House, and I do riot think it would do the Bill any harm if he gave way on this occasion —he does it so gracefully that we like to see him do it—And he would make certain that the Bill does what is wanted by hon. Members in every quarter of the House.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

It is a well-known Am principle that you should never put into a Bill words which are unnecessary. The result of putting in unnecessary words is, almost invariably, to create confusion afterwards. We are advised that the word "improvement" in this particular Clause does include widening, and I think the Committee can be satisfied that the Clause does do what it is desired that it should do, and therefore we had better not complicate it by the addition of these words.

Mr. TOMLINSON

May I ask whether widening includes acquiring property for the purposes of the widening?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

Yes, Sir. The Bill says the county council shall contribute towards the expenses, and the expenses of a widening must include the expense of acquiring land for the widening.

Mr. SOMERVILLE

After the assurance given by the Minister, I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. LOOKER

I beg to move, in page 27, line 30, after the word "Transport," to insert the words after holding if he considers it necessary a local inquiry. The object of this Amendment is that the Minister may, if he considers it necessary, hold a local inquiry before determining the questions which fall to him to be determined. It will bring the Clause into line with Clause 39, Sub-section (1).

Colonel ASHLEY

I think it is quite unnecessary to insert words giving the Minister power to hold a local inquiry. If the hon. Member will turn to Clause 108, Sub.-section (2) he will see that the Minister of Transport is given power to hold inquiries for the purposes of this Act, including appeals to him thereunder as if those purposes were purposes of the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919, and Section 20 of that Act shall apply accordingly.

Mr. LOOKER

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

It being half-past Seven of the Clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the Rouse of 12th December, successively to put forthwith the Questions on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given, and the Questions necessary to dispose of the Business to be concluded at half-past Seven of the Clock at this day's Sitting