HC Deb 17 December 1928 vol 223 cc2759-73

The Amendment standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb)—in page 9, to leave jut from the word "day," in line 12, to the end of the Clause, and to insert instead thereof the words: have effect as if in the Act the London County Council were substituted for the London Unemployed Body as the authority under the Act for the County of London, and as if the council of a county or county borough had been made the authority under the Act for a county or county borough respectively— appears to me to be a repetition of an Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman moved to Clause 1. Before I give a Ruling upon it, I should like to hear the observations of the right hon. Gentleman on the question of Order.


The point of the Amendment which I moved on Clause 1 was merely that there should be the option of proceeding under the Unemployed Work- men Act, and when I moved that Amendment on Clause 1 it was not objected to. Clause 10 proposes to repeal the Unemployed Workmen Act, and the effect of my present Amendment would merely be that that Act would remain in force, but would be administered by different authorities.


The right hon. Gentleman's Amendment is, in point of fact, a direct negative of the Clause, and, therefore, I must rule it out of Order. The point can be raised on the Question "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."


I submit, Captain Bourne, that. this is a proposal to amend the Clause. A direct negative would lay down that the Act should not be repealed, but this is not that at all; it is simply a proposal that the Act should be amended in a particular manner.


The Clause as it stands would totally repeat the Unemployed Workmen Act, and the effect of the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment would be to substitute some other provision. It is a well-known rule of procedure in the House that an Amendment which proposes a direct negative is not in order. If the point be raised on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," it will be in order, but not as an Amendment to the Clause.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill.


As you definitely rule that my Amendment is of the nature of a direct negative, I accept that ruling. I take it that I am now in order in dealing with the matter on the Question "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."




Then I shall venture to take advantage of your suggestion, and shall not address myself to the Question whether the Clause stand part, but to the making of the point which I should have made if I had been able to move my Amendment. The Unemployed Workmen Act, which this Clause proposes to repeal, does not relate to the London County Council at all. In London the power was given to the Central Unemployed Body. My Amendment would have given the authority under that Act to the London County Council and not the Central Unemployed Body, and would have made the authority in other counties and county boroughs the council of the county or county borough itself.

I am now asking the Committee to negative the proposal that the Clause should stand part. I will not repeat the arguments I used on a former occasion. I am going to ask the Committee to consider a brand new argument, that is, that the Minister of Health has put down an Amendment to Clause 15 in which he proposes to give to the London County Council, and to the London County Council only, power to delegate any of the powers transferred by this Act to any committee which they think appropriate. That is to say, the London County Council, if the Amendment is carried, will be able to transfer any of the powers, including the Poor Law powers, to any of its committees at its choice. It will not be bound to transfer to the public assistance committee any powers at all. If it chooses, it can distribute them over its other committees. I am very much in favour of that Amendment, and I hope it will be extended to other county boroughs. The right hon. Gentleman will perhaps notice that the London County Council has not any appropriate committee at present for dealing with the able-bodied unemployed, because it is the central unemployed body, under this Act, which is that committee. My Amendment would have been to enable the London County Council to exercise itself, through its appropriate committees, the powers of the Unemployed Workmen Act. Unfortunately this Clause, if I am not successful in inducing the Committee to refuse to let it stand part, will repeal the Unemployed Workmen Act and will deprive the London County Council of any power to deal with the able-bodied unemployed at all otherwise than as paupers. The right hon. Gentleman's Amendment to delegate all or any of the powers under this Bill to any Committee that the London County Council chooses will be operative as regards the able-bodied unemployed, but if the Unemployed Workmen Act is repealed they will not be able to have a committee dealing with the unemployed at all. I do not think that can be intended.

The right hon. Gentleman, on a former occasion, said his Department did not think the Unemployed Workmen Act was of any use. It happens that to-day, quite by accident, I was looking at some recent Annual Reports of the right hon. Gentleman's Department only two or three years ago. One of them reported in very glowing terms as to the utility of Hollesley Bay and said that a number of men had found situations after the training there. That comes to an end if I am not successful in getting the Committee to refuse to let the Clause stand part. We understand that the right hon. Gentleman has consented to allow his colleague the Minister of Labour to take it over for the express purpose of training men who are unemployed. I rather object to this institution being taken over from the County of London by the national Government. I should have wished for it to have been run by those who provided and paid for it.

For all these reasons, it seems to me that the Committee ought not to allow this Clause to stand part of the Bill. It does actually repeal the Unemployed Workmen Act, and by repealing that Act it prevents any county council or county borough from having any committee to deal with the unemployed or the poor except the public assistance committee, and the public assistance committee is of all committees unqualified for dealing with the unemployed. Nothing can be worse than mixing up people broken down by destitution with the question of the treatment of the unemployed and able-bodied. They ought to be separate. The question of the unemployed ought not to be dealt with by any local body except under the Unemployed Workmen Act, and that Act applies to all counties and county boroughs. I honour the majority of the London County Council for asking that

the administration of all the new powers should be distributed among the appropriate committees of the London County Council. It is what some of us have been pleading for during 19 years. The right hon. Gentleman has allowed the London County Council to do that, and I only say that to make his concession complete he ought not to deprive them of the Unemployed Workmen Act, which by allowing his Clause to stand, he would be enabled to do.

It being half-past Ten of the Clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of 12th December, to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.

Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 254; Noes, 136.

Division No. 81.] AYES. [10.30 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Albery, Irving James Colman, N. C. D. Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Conway, Sir W. Martin Greens, W. P. Crawford
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Cooper, A. Dull Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Cope, Major Sir William Grotrlan, H. Brent
Applln, Colonel R. V. K. Couper, J. B. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Apslty, Lord Courtauld, Major J. S. Gunston, Captain D. W.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Hacking, Douglas H.
Astor, Viscountess Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Hall. Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Atholl, Duchess of Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Hamilton, Sir George
Atkinson, C. Crookshank,Cpt.H,(Lindsey,Galnsbro) Hanbury, C.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Balniel, Lord Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Harland, A.
Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell Curzon, Captain Viscount Hartington, Marquess of
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Davies, Maj. Geo.F.(Somerset,Yeovil) Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Bennett, A. J. Davies, Dr. Vernon Haslam, Henry C.
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Berry, Sir George Dawson. Sir Philip Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd,Henley)
Bevan, S. J. Dixey, A. C. Heneage, Lieut. Colonel Arthur P.
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R.. Sklpton) Eden, Captain Anthony Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Edmondson, Major A. J. Hills, Major John Waller
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Holbrook. Sir Arthur Richard
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Elliot, Major Walter E. Holt, Capt. H. P.
Briggs, J. Harold Erskine. James Malcolm Montelth Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Briscoe, Richard George Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Hopkins, J. W. W.
Brittain, Sir Harry Everard, W. Lindsay Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Fairfax. Captain J. G. Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Falle, Sir Bertram G. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.
Broun-Llndsay, Major H. Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Hudson, R. s. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd, Hexham) Fielden. E. B. Hume, Sir G. H.
Buckingham, Sir H. Ford, Sir P. J. Hurd, Percy A.
Burton, Colonel H. W. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Hurst, Gerald B.
Campbell, E. T. Forrest, W. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Carver. Major W. H. Foster, Sir Harry S. Iveagh, Countess of
Cassels, J. D. Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth. Cen'l)
Cautley, Sir Henry S. traser, Captain Ian Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Fremantle. Lieut-Colonel Francis E Kennedy, A. R. (Preston).
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Kindersley, Major G. M.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Galbralth, J. F. W. King, Commodore Henry Douglas
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Ganzonl, Sir John Kinloch-Cooke. Sir Clement
Charterls, Brigadier-General J. Gates, Percy Knox, Sir Alfred
Christie, J. A. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Lamb, J. Q.
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Gilmour. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Clarry, Reginald George Glyn, Major R. G. C. Little, Dr. E. Graham
Cobb, Sir Cyril Goff, Sir Park Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. O. Gower, Sir Robert Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Grace, John Loder. J. de V.
Cohen, Major J. Brunel Grant, Sir J. A. Lougher, Lewis
Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Philipson, Mabel Styles, Captain H. W.
Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Pilcher, G. Sueter, Rear.Admiral Murray Frasir
MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Pilditch, Sir Philip Sugden, sir Wilfrid
Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Pownall, Sir Assheton Tasker, R. Inlgo
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Preston, William Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Price, Major C. W. M. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
MacRobert, Alexander M. Raine, Sir Walter Tinne, J. A.
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Ramsden, E. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Margesson, Captain D. Remer, J. R. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Rentoul, G. S. Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough
Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Meyer, Sir Frank Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Wallace, Captain D. E.
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Huill
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Ropner, Major L. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Ruggles-Brlse, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Warrender, Sir Victor
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt, Hon. B. M. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Rye, F. G. Wayland, Sir William A.
Moore, Sir Newton J. Salmon, Major I. Wells, S. R.
Moreing, Captain A. H. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) White, Licut.-Col. Sir G. Datrymple
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Samuel, Samuel (W'dswortti, Putney) Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Murchlson, Sir Kenneth Sandeman, N. Stewart Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph Sanders, Sir Robert A. Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Nelson, Sir Frank Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Neville, Sir Reginald J. Savery, S. S. Winby, Colonel L. P.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew. W) Withers, John James
Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Wolraer, Viscount
Nuttall, Ellis Shepperson, E. W. Womersiey, W. J.
Oakley, T. Skelton, A. N. Wood, R. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne.C.) Wood, E.(Chest'r.Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Smith-Carington, Neville W. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Pennefather, Sir John Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Wright, Brig.-General W. D.
Perkins, Colonel E. K. Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
Perring, Sir William George Stanley, Lord (Fylde) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Mr. F. C. Thomson and Mr. Penny.
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hardie, George D. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. 0. (W.Bromwich)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Harney, E. A. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Amnion, Charles George Harris, Percy A. Saklatvala, Shapurji
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Salter, Dr. Alfred
Baker, Walter Hirst, G. H Scurr, John
Barker, G (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Sexton, James
Barnes, A. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Barr, J. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Shinwell, E.
Batey, Joseph Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Bellamy. A. Jenkins. W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Sitch, Charles H.
Bondfield, Margaret John, William (Rhondda, West) Siesser, Sir Henry H.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Johnston, Thomas (Dunda[...]) Smillie, Robert
Briant, Frank Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Smith, Rennie (Penlstone)
Broad. F. A. Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Bromfield, William Kelly, W. T. Stamford, T. W.
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Kennedy, T. Stephen, Campbell
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Kenworthy, Lt-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Buchanan, G. Lansbury, George Strauss, E. A.
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Lawrence, Susan Sullivan, J.
Charleton, H. C, Lawson, John James Sutton, J. E.
Cluse, W. S. Lee. F. Taylor, R. A.
Compton, Joseph Lindley, F. W. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Connolly, M. Longbottom, A. W. Thurtle, Ernest
Cove, W. G. Lowth, T. Tinker, John Joseph
Crawfurd, H. E. Lunn, William Tomlinson, R. P.
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Townend, A. E.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Mackindor, W. Vlant, S. P.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Wallhead, Richard C.
Day, Harry Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Waish. Rt. Hon. Stephen
Dennlson, R. March, S. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Duncan, C. Maxton, James Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Dunnico, H. Montague, Frederick Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Morris, R. H. Wellock, Wilfred
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Unlver.) Murnin, H. Weish, J. C.
Fenby, T. D. Naylor, T. E. Westwood. J.
Gardner, J. P. Oliver, George Harold Wiggins, William Martin
Glbbins, Joseph Owen, Major G. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Glliett, George M. Palin, John Henry Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edln., Cent.) Paling, W. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colnel Parkinson, Jonn Allen (Wigan) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Grenfell. D. R. (Glamorgan) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attcrcllffe)
Griffith, F. Kingsley Ponsonby, Arthur Wilson, R. J. (J arrow)
Grundy, T. W. Potts, John S. Windsor, Walter
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wright, W.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Riley, Ben
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Rltson, J. TELLERS FOR THE NOES▀×
Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Whiteley.

The Chairman then proceeded, successively, to put forthwith the Question on an Amendment moved by the Government of which notice had been given, and the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at half-past Ten of the Clock at this day's Sitting.

  1. CLAUSE 11.—(Consequential Amendments of certain Acts.) 1,778 words, 1 division
  2. cc2769-73
  3. CLAUSE 12.—(Consequential alteration of constitution of assessment committees.) 1,776 words, 1 division
  4. c2773
  5. CLAUSE 13.—(Recovery of expenses.) 29 words