HC Deb 13 December 1928 vol 223 cc2421-41

The Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for East Ham North (Miss Lawrence)—in page 2, line 6, at the beginning, to insert the words: The Minister shall make orders for combining, any two or more councils, whether councils of counties or county boroughs, covering suitable areas, for the purpose of dealing with vagrancy, and such orders shall include provisions for the suitable classification of all casuals, separating youths and mental deficients from other classes, and for ascertaining through the medium of the Employment Exchanges within the combined area the possibilities of employment, and —could be moved as a proviso to Subsection (2).


I beg to move, in page 2, line 8, after the word "areas," to insert the words "or parts of areas."

In Clause 2, Sub-section (1), there is given power to county councils or county borough councils to combine, and in the next Sub-section there is given power to the Minister to order that combination if he thinks it. is desirable, but, on the other hand, there is no provision in this Subsection to allow one portion of an area to combine with another portion, and the object of my Amendment is to give power to the Minister to order the combination of one portion of an area with another portion if he thinks it desirable. There are several cases, especially in industrial areas, where that combination might be advantageous. The case I have in mind is that of the Ashton-under-Lyne union, which consists very largely of three boroughs: the Borough of Ashton-under-Lyne, which is in Lancashire, and the Boroughs of Dukinfield and Stalybridge, which are both in Cheshire. The population on the Lancashire side is about 117,00C, and the population on the Cheshire side is about 52,000. It is a very highly industrialised area, and there is no seal dividing line between one town and another; in point of fact, it is well nigh impossible to tell where one town ends and another begins. These three boroughs, with the adjoining agricultural districts, comprise the Ashton-under-Lyne Union; and in addition to that for the purposes of the 1923 Rating and Valuation Act, although the union is situated in two separate counties, they have been allowed to count as one area for that purpose. Therefore, it is hoped that the Minister can see his way to allow them to become one area for the purposes of this Bill.

The real difficulty arises in the case of the institutions, because the whole of the institutions are in Lancashire, Cheshire having none at all. The workhouse and infirmary are both in Lancashire, and those institutions have been put down on the site so that they can combine to provide any extra accommodation that may be required. Therefore, if the two counties do not agree to a union of those institutions, it means that Cheshire will have to build new institutions, which will cost a great deal of money, and, in addition, new sites are well nigh impossible to find. I am not certain whether, under Clause 93, the Minister has power to order a joint use of those institutions, whether or not the two county councils agree. If he has, and if he will give that undertaking, I think that would be satisfactory; but if there is no power to do that, I think some power ought to be given to him to co-ordinate them, because this part of Cheshire is rather unique. It is practically divided from the remainder of the county; being surrounded on one side by Lancashire, on another by Derbyshire, and on another by Yorkshire, it is a sort of arm running up on its own. Therefore, I hope the Minister can see his way to allow one portion of an area to combine with another portion of an area, so as to get away with any difficulty that might arise.


I am much obliged to my hon. Friend for explaining in some detail what is the particular difficulty to which he desires to draw attention. I confess that when I first saw the Amendment on the Paper I had not quite fully appreciated the motives which lay behind it, but now that I understand his difficulty, I think I can remove it by giving him the assurance that he asked for, because this is just the class of case that can be deal with under Clause 93. Under that Clause all institutional property may be divided between any two or more of those councils, as may be agreed between the councils, or, if no agreement has been arrived at two months before the appointed day, as the Minister may by order determine Therefore, it will be possible, in the first instance, by agreement, and if no agreement is possible between the councils, it is open to the Minister to make an Order.


I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.


I beg to move, in page 2, line 26, at the end, to insert the words: Provided that the Minister shall make orders for combining any two or more councils, whether councils of counties or county boroughs, covering suitable areas, for the purpose of dealing with vagrancy, and such orders shall include provisions for the suitable classification of all casuals, separating youths and mental deficients from other classes, and for ascertaining through the medium of the Employment Exchanges within the combined area the possibilities of employment We desire that Parliament shall deal with this matter, and that they shall declare that there shall be suitable areas and classification, and that there shall be cooperation between the Poor Law institutions and the Employment Exchanges. I ask the Committee for a moment to look at the general question. During the War there were practically no casuals, and casual wards were closed. With the unemployment that came after the War, the number of casuals increased enormously, and I see by the figures that there were over 12,000 in March last. We have from all over the country evidence that this number is increasing, and evidence of the horrible overcrowding of the casual wards. I gave an instance, which was not denied, the other day of 110 men in accommodation for 41. I have here particulars of a large number of unions where similar shocking conditions occur, but I will not go into the details, because it is not denied that the casual wards, particularly those in the north and west of London, and those round the towns in the Midlands, are habitually in this frightful state of congestion.

The Poor Law inspectors point out that the character of the casual has completely changed, and that, as well as the old tramp, there are a large number of young vagrants who are described by the inspectors as men who set off along the roads in an aimless search for work. A very large number of these men are either certainly looking for work or in the opinion of the inspectors possibly looking for work. No people are so badly treated as the casuals. The men on the roads are saying that it is better for a man to go to prison, and they say that for reasons which I want to recommend to the House. One reason is that the food is much worse in the casual wards than in the convict prisons; that is true, the food is worse than any diet in prison, except the punishment diet, and it approximates to the punishment diet. There is no difference, except a scrap of cheese and a little margarine, between the authorised diet for casuals and the punishment diet in prison. The punishment diet can only be given where the age and sex of the person does not render it desirable. You cannot put a feeble man on to the prison punishment diet, but you cannot give him anything else if he is a casual.

It is not only that the food is worse, but that the hardships which are habitually experienced by men on the roads are worse. I have given the instance of men sleeping on concrete floors. Men are sleeping on the floors 'in the overcrowded casual wards on the way to the big towns every night. It is worse than prison, for in prison a man's mattress can be taken away only if he is refractory, but his bed must be left. He never sleeps on the floor. Then, again, the task of stone breaking which the casual has to perform is harder and more repulsive than anything the Prison Commissioners allow in prison. What tramps are saying to each other on the roads—and I have had this from charitable people who spend their lives among them—is that it is' better to go to prison, because the Prison Commissioners will give them a job. That is true. Under the direct influence of the Home Office, there are charitable people, prison chaplains, governors and other persons who will do anything in their power to give a discharged prisoner a chance of doing an honest day's work. It is very creditable to them, and it is very creditable to the Home Secretary. While I am a political enemy of the Home Secretary, I am pleased to say that I always find him in dealing with individual cases one of the most humane of men. Really and truly, these men on the roads would be much better off if they were handed over to these efforts of reclamation of the Home Secretary. We say, therefore, in this Amendment that it shall be the duty of the new vagrancy authority to be continually in touch with the Employment Exchanges. At the present time, they can be kept as casuals for a whole day and two nights. There is no communication with the Employment Exchanges, and it is not the duty of the boards of guardians to use a telephone so that they could direct these poor chaps where they could get a job of work. Their only business is to pass them on. Even the best of guardians take not the least interest in these birds of passage, and the worst of them are engaged in a competition to keep the casuals out of their territory, and put on all manner of deterrents in order to keep the casuals from crossing their boundaries.

The real comparison that should be made is with the unreformed prisons before the present prison system was introduced. Nothing more shocked the early prison reformers than the fact that the first offenders and the hardened gaol birds were herded together. Mrs. Fry spoke of the prisons as schools for vice. That is exactly what the casual wards are to-day. These young men go out aimlessly looking for work, and in the casual wards are found among the tramps some of the most dangerous characters in the world. The young men are put in unrestricted association with them, and every experienced magistrate knows that the object of these old rogues, hardened in every sort of vice and villainy, is to pick up a young man or boy to go on the roads with them. Every magistrate knows what that means. All that has been said about the unreformed Newgate being a school of vice and crime is true of the casual wards to-clay.

What about the mentally deficient casuals? They are in the casual wards, lumped in with the others, put on the same punishment diet, made to sleep on the floor, and set the same penal task 'of work. These people really cannot help themselves, and they ought not to be put in these places. Our system in this country is looked upon with horror in Continental countries. Denmark has a proper classification system for separating the mental deficients, and separating the youths from the older men, and the honest men looking for work from the rogues and vagabonds. I could always write the speeches of the Parliamentary Secretary beforehand, and when he replies he will make statements that the Ministry is perhaps not very much worse than Ministries that have gone before—


Much better.


But that is no answer at all. I have brought a cruel and admitted wrong before the Committee, a wrong which has gone on under Department after Department, and now that the rising tide of vagrancy has grown to enormous proportions, I ask that this Imperial Parliament shall take the matter in hand and lay down a minimum of decent conditions.


The hon. Lady has made an eloquent appeal, as she always does, in support of her Amendment. There is no question that the vagrancy problem is one of the most serious problems that presents itself to the country at the present time. There is great need for co-ordination and for setting up vagrancy committees to function over the country as a whole. Thousands of men are wandering about. They start out in search of work, but, after a spell on the road, some of them begin to lose heart, and they then lose the self-respect which is so essential for regaining a position in society, until finally they become permanent wayfarers on the road. The many and varied systems of relief at present in operation tend to aggravate rather than to alleviate the vagrancy problem. Each institution tries to vie with its neighbour in attempting to solve the problem by a different method of treatment.

8.0 p.m.

It is most desirable that uniformity of treatment should be obtained and put into force among local authorities. As the law stands at present, district committees can be established to deal with vagrancy on a uniform basis, but the Min- ister has no power to compel authorities to come together to carry out a common scheme, so if one authority stands out it is not possible to set up a scheme. Under this Bill, the Minister will obtain power to secure that there shall be combination if application is made to him by two or more authorities. That is a great step forward in dealing with vagrancy. Undoubtedly, these powers are needed so that reasonable and fair treatment on similar lines may be provided throughout the country. Powers are also needed in order to ensure that, so far as practicable and advisable, vagrants shall travel along the routes where they are most likely to find employment and be able to gain a livelihood. Vagrancy Committees are also wanted in order to attempt, as far as may be possible, to place the children of casuals in suitable schools; they have, in fact, a big and wide field to cover.

I suggest that the Amendment, with which in many respects I am in sympathy, goes rather too far. The Bill itself marks a long step forward, and I think it is wiser and better that we should trust the local authorities to do what is right in this matter. So far as the future is concerned local authorities will always have the Minister behind them to make an Order. The Amendment lays down precisely what local authorities are to do. There is no reason to suppose that local authorities, particularly those which are entrusted with the administration of the Poor Law, will not carry out their duties efficiently and effectively, and, therefore, I shall not support it. I am rather surprised, indeed, to find it proposed, because there has been considerable opposition shown by hon. Members opposite in regard to the control of Poor Law authorities, notably in the case of Poplar and certain other boards of guardians. I think this Bill makes a, good compromise, and that its proposals go far enough, for it will ensure that a single authority will not be able in future to block a scheme for a large area. I trust that the Minister will exercise the powers conferred upon him by the Bill, because I think they are ample, and, if he exercises them, I think the difficulty in regard to vagrancy will be surmounted.


I am glad to be able to support the Amendment, which has been moved so splendidly by my hon. Friend the Member for East Ham North (Miss Lawrence), and I am inclined to think that it would have been better to have left it there; but I want to stress how essential it is that we should have some uniformity of treatment of casuals as between one authority and another. I want to say here that I and many more appreciate even the small things that the Ministry of Health has done quite recently. I have had evidence from various parts of the country that they have really tried, through their inspectors, to remove some of the worst evils, and that they have succeeded in doing so in one or two instances. But the fact that we are thankful for such small things merely shows the gravity of the problem, and the fact that these things have to be dealt with in a civilised country proves how low we have fallen. If there are any hon. Members here who doubt that we have a right to say that this cannot be left to local authorities, I will read to them a Report which appeared in a local paper of the Uttoxeter Board of Guardians' meeting, held on the 14th November, when the question of what to do with the hordes of casuals was being debated. I would like just to say here that the Minister's inspector goes round the South of England—I wish someone would give him, a hint to prepare another speech—referring to the "plague of tramps," and his objection to the "plague of tramps" that it "looks bad with motorists going along the roads and seeing all those tramps." At the meeting of the Uttoxeter Guardians, to which I have referred, the master explained: That on account of the large number of casuals relieved (double last year's total), it was impossible to find work for all, and, furthermore, it was difficult to supervise. Granted. But he then went on to say: If they were to reduce the number of casuals, they must find them tasks which would frighten them off as it did in other Unions. That is the policy of the majority of boards of guardians at the present time —to make the conditions so bad for the casuals that they will go to other places where the conditions are not quite so bad. Any boards who are trying to do their work decently, and there are such, find themselves simply overwhelmed with the numbers of men who go there and they have to retaliate by making it still harder for them, and so it goes on. There are the men, at the mercy of the various boards of guardians who are trying Do give them as bad a time as they can. There are some boards of guardians who give men soup while others give them a miserable skilly. There are some boards of guardians who do not allow the men to have bunks, but provide them with boards which are laid on concrete. Some boards of guardians warm the cells, while others refuse to warm them. In some casual wards, the men are given food, such as it is, with absolutely no utensils whatsoever, and when they go away from the casual wards they are handed bread and cheese which is not even wrapped up. Every man is supposed to be searched; but there are some guardians, I am glad to say, who are too decent to have the men searched; they treat them as law-abiding citizens and do not search them, while others search them more and more rigorously.

There are some boards who would re-introduce stone-breaking because they say it is more successful in breaking men's hearts than in breaking stones. There are some places where men have to go to the police for tickets, and there unemployment is associated with crime, while other boards would not allow that. In some places men are given bath-water to themselves, but in others as many as 14 and 16 men have to use the same water. In some places they are given a towel each, in others several men have to use the same towel. In some places the men are released at 6.30, while in others they are not released till as late as 3 o'clock. Some get into trouble for being late in arriving at the next workhouse, and, in one case, men got into trouble and there was a row and they were sent to gaol. There are some casual wards where they endeavour to find occupation for the men on Sundays. They are provided with mending materials for socks, boots and shirts and for washing their clothes, and in some places, I am glad to say, the guardians have invited people from outside to entertain the men on Sunday afternoons. If we are to get uniformity of treatment, the method proposed in the Amendment is the only way to do it under the present system, and I do beg that we shall attempt to do it by bringing the bad up to the level of the good, and give those who are doing their job well a square deal.


The hon. Member who has just spoken has paid a certain amount of tribute to the work which has been done by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health, but the hon. Member for East Ham North (Miss Lawrence), who moved the Amendment, made no allusion to the work that is being done by the right hon. Gentleman in this connection. She predicted that I would say in my reply that we were no worse than our predecessors. I make no such claim; the claim I make is that the present administration is far more humane; that more attention is being given to the difficulties of the problem than under any other administration, and I include in that the Labour administration. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley), when he was Minister of Health, had to deal with this problem, and I think he dealt with it in a humane manner. One of the first things he was asked to do, when he was Minister of Health, was to abolish all tasks in connection with casuals.


Why do you not do it?


His answer was that ho would not; and during the whole time of the Labour administration stone-breaking and oakum-picking were imposed upon the casuals in this country. There was also a certain scale of dietary in those days, which the hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Shepherd) has alluded to to-night, When I hear charges such as has been made to-night, I am entitled to remind the Committee, in fairness to the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health and his Department, that, since my right hon. Friend took office, oakum-picking has been abolished altogether.


It is not generally applied.


Yes. As regards the general treatment of casuals, as I stated to the House in the very limited time I had the other night, directly the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health came into office, he issued instructions to the guardians with reference to the allowance of food and the general condi- tions in relation to food were reconsidered and revised, especially so far as children are concerned. That cannot be gainsaid.


The matters to which the right hon. Gentleman is referring seem to me to be rather wide of the subject of the Amendment.


I am replying to statements which were made in the course of the Debate by the hon. Member for East Ham North who stated that this Amendment should be adopted by the Committee as a drastic measure owing to the conditions which obtain at the present time. I will content myself, because I have no desire to be out of order, by saying that, so far as the conditions of the casual wards are concerned, we have spent a considerable sum of money since the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health took office, and that, if there is any question of humanity or of the accusations which have been made in the course of this Debate, the conditions of the casual wards of the country and the conditions of the people who go there are certainly better than they were during the Labour Administration.


Will the right hon. Gentleman tell me which Vote provided the money to be spent on casual wards?


The hon. Member put the question to me, and the fact remains—


You have no power to spend money.


—that at the instance of my right hon. Friend, as I stated in the very few minutes when I was speaking the other night, a considerable sum of money has been spent in connection with casual wards in this country. I would explain to the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Greenwood), who has only just come in, and has not followed my argument, that when I hear accusations of inhumanity, my answer is that conditions to-day are far better—


I said so.


—and there is a more humane system of administration, than under the Labour Government. Having said that I will deal with the Amend- ment on the Paper. I have only dealt with the other matter in view of the statements which have been made. In her Amendment the hon. Lady is proposing that it shall be obligatory upon the Minister of Health to make orders combining authorities which deal with vagrants. How far will that advance the objects which, I suppose, every Member desires to see attained? In the first place, it would require orders to be made combining any two or more councils for this work, and would require that every county should be included in some combination or another. There is no possible justification for such peremptory action.


But many are asking for it.


The hon. Member will find that such cases are provided for in the Bill. If he will turn to Clause 2 he will see in Sub-section (2) two proposal for dealing with this particular problem. There is a good deal to be gained by combination, and, in the first place, if two or more authorities desire to combine, all they have to do is to apply to the Minister, who may make an order combining the areas for the purposes named in the sub-section. Then, further, we say that if there is no such application, but it yet appears to the Minister that a combination of two or more councils would tend to diminish the expense, or otherwise prove to the public or local advantage, he may make an order combining the areas. Obviously then, there is full provision for dealing with these cases, because if authorities do not agree among themselves to combine, but it appears to the Minister that it is desirable or in the public interest that they should combine, he has ample powers under which to issue an order; but to say that, without any regard to the particular circumstances, an order combining areas must be made, whether it be necessary or desirable, is obviously to make a suggestion which would not commend itself to the great majority of hon. Members.

The hon. Member for Darlington, who speaks with knowledge, and spoke to-night without prejudice, himself referred to certain guardians as doing their work well, and obviously in cases of that kind where there would be a transfer to the larger authorities there is no neces- sity for such an order to be made. But there is ample provision in this sub-section for authorities to come together for this purpose, and if they do not combine the Minister, who has considerable knowledge, and has his inspectors up and down the country, may make an order if he thinks it to the public advantage to do so. Obviously the provisions of the Bill are far preferable and more in the interest of the casuals themselves than the proposals in the Amendment moved by the hon. Lady, who has put her case upon such flimsy and inaccurate grounds, and I ask that the Amendment should be rejected.


The Parliamentary Secretary has, as usual, dodged the main issue, and has twitted us with the statement that the present administration is much more humane than the Labour administration or any previous administration. May I point out that the Ministry of Health under the Labour Government held office for eight months only?

Siir K. WOOD

Plenty of time.


The time at their disposal was very limited. I think the Labour Minister acted on the policy of the present Minister by taking first things first, and as he had to devote his attention to even bigger issues, this one had to wait its turn. The present Minister foreshadowed the present Bill two years ago, but it has been postponed until the present time. There is a very strong case for the Amendment. The Parliamentary Secretary did not seem to realise that a good number of these casuals tramp the length and breadth of the country and are a kind of through traffic in many local areas. Even a county is not a big enough area to enable us to deal adequately with this question, because the number in any given county at a given moment will be comparatively small, and from the point of view of administration and of the expenses of administration, very large areas ought to be formed in many parts of the country. Unless we have a combination of adjacent counties and county boroughs, we shall not cope with this problem.

I wish to call attention to a new aspect of the problem of casuals which ought to be taken seriously and has a bearing upon the Amendment. If the Amendment be accepted, local authorities dealing with vagrancy will be able to cope with it much more effectually than will be possible under the provisions of the Bill. The hon. Member for East Ham North (Miss Lawrence) made a statement, which has not been challenged, that in 1926 there were some 9,000 casuals, and that during the present year the number has gone up to some 12,000. I predict that unless the Government do more to solve the problem of unemployment the number will go up very rapidly in the course of the next year or two. Regretful though the fact be, there it is. Casuals are being rapidly created; a new type of casual is being created through the utter failure of the Government to deal with the unemployment problem.

We have in the mining industry alone over 300,000 able-bodied miners who are young, middle-aged and old, and who are out of work. It is true that the majority of them are drawing unemployment benefit, but an ever-increasing number of them go out of benefit because they have been idle for a long time, in some cases for one, two, three, four and even five years. Consequently they are entirely outside the scope of the Unemployment Acts, and they do not draw any income at all from those funds. The Minister of Health, by his rigorous policy of refusing to grant Poor Law relief to able-bodied miners who are without any source of income whatever, has driven thousands of miners away from their homes, and they have been compelled to tramp the country. In this way the great army of casuals have been recruited from the ranks of the healthy, able-bodied unemployed simply because the Ministry of Health have decided not to relieve any able-bodied person.

In view of this new type of casual which has been created the Amendment

which we are discussing is all the more necessary. If the Committee adopt this Amendment we shall be able to combine and treat the casual in a way that he has never been treated before. The case which has been put before the Committee by the hon. Member for East Ham North cannot be answered, and for the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us that her arguments are of a flimsy character shows that the right hon. Gentleman has not the decency to realise that the casual is as much a citizen as he himself or the Minister of Health, and is entitled to as much humane treatment. We all know the kind of treatment which has been meted out to casuals in the past, and some of the greatest men in our modern literature have taken up this question. Mr. W. H. Davies, one of our well-known poets has described the life of the casual in graphic language, and Mr. Patrick McGill has also written about the casual. The way in which casuals are treated in this country has been exposed by some of our greatest men, and when we get an opportunity of dealing with this subject in our legislation the Government turn down our proposals. Why do the Government adopt this course? Simply because the casual is not a political factor, and therefore does not weigh with the Government. It is a scandalous state of things that the Government should treat so flimsily an important Amendment of this kind. I hope the country will take note of this point, and realise that the present Government in this matter, as in everything else they have touched, have failed to realise that they are encouraging the creation of a new type of casual by their treatment of the unemployed miners in this country.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 131: Noes, 202.

Division No. 64.] AYES. [8.31 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Dennison, R.
Adamson, W. M. (Statt., Cannock) Buchanan, G. Dunnico, H.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Cape, Thomas Edge, Sir Willian.
Ammon, Charles George Charleton, H. C. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Cluse, W. S. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh univer.)
Baker. Walter Connolly, M. Fenby, T. D.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Cove, W. G. Forrest, W.
Batey, Joseph Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Gibbins, Joseph
Beckett, John (Gateshead) Crawfurd, H. E. Gillett, George M.
Bellamy, A. Dalton, Hugh Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)
Benn, Wedgwood Davies, David (Montgomery) Greenall, T.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Broad,. F. A. Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Bromfield, William Day, Harry Griffith, F. Kingsley
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) MacNeill-Weir, L. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Grundy, T. W. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Stamford, T. W.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) March, S. Stephen, Campbell
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Maxton, James Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Hardle, George D. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Strauss, E. A.
Harris, Percy A. Mosley, Sir Oswald Sullivan, J.
Hayday, Arthur Murnin, H. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnlly) Naylor, T. E. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Oliver, George Harold Thurtle, Ernest
Hirst, G. H. Palin, John Henry Tinker, John Joseph
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Paling, W. Tomlinson, R. P.
Hollins, A. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Hore-Belisha, Leslie Ponsonby, Arthur Viant, S. P.
Hudson. J. H. (Huddersfield) Potts, John S. Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
John, William (Rhondda, West) Riley, Ben Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Ritson, J. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R.,Elland) Wellock, Wilfred
Kelly, W. T. Saklatvala, Shapurji Westwood, J.
Kennedy, T. Salter, Dr. Alfred Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Kirkwood, D. Scrymgeour, E Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Lansbury, George Scurr, John Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Lawrence, Susan Sexton, James Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Lawson, John James Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Lee, F. Shiels, Dr. Drummond Windsor, Walter
Livingstone, A. M. Shinwell, E. Wright, W.
Longbottom, A. W. Sltch, Charles H. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Lowth, T. Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Lunn, William Smillie, Robert TELLERS FOR THE AYES.-
Mackinder, W. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhlthe) Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Whiteley.
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Snell, Harry
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Albery, Irving James Dawson, Sir Philip Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Dean, Arthur Wellesley Long, Major Eric
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Edmondson, Major A. J. Looker, Herbert William
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Elliot, Major Walter E. Lougher, Lewis
Astor, Viscountess Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Luce. Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Atkinson, C. Fielden, E. B. Lumley, L. R.
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Finburgh, S. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Forestler-Walker, Sir L. Maclntyre, Ian
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Macmillan, Captain H.
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Macquisten, F. A.
Berry, Sir George Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton MacRobert, Alexander M.
Bethel, A. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)
Betterton, Henry B. Glyn, Major R. G. C. Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Goff, Sir Park Malone, Major P. B.
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Grace, John Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Grattan, Doyle, Sir N. Margesson, Captain D.
Brass, Captain W. Greene, W. P. Crawford Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Mason, Colonel Glyn K.
Briscoe, Richard George Grotrian, H. Brent Merriman, Sir F. Boyd
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Gunston, Captain D. W. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M
Buchan, John Hamilton, Sir George Moreing, Captain A. H.
Buckingham, Sir H. Hanbury, C. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Bullock, Captain M. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Burman, J. B. Hartlngton, Marquess of Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph
Campbell, E. T. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Nelson, Sir Frank
Carver, Major W. H. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Neville, Sir Reginald J.
Cassels, J. D. Haslam, Henry C. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Chapman, Sir S. Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian Nuttall, Ellis
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Christie, J. A. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Clarry, Reginald George Herberts.(York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'bj Penny, Frederick George
Clayton, G. C. Hilton, Cecil Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Cohen, Major J. Brunei Hopkins, J. W. W. Perring, Sir William George
Cooper, A. Duff Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon. Barnstaple)
Couper, J. B. Hume. Sir G. H. Peto, G. (Somerset, Frame)
Courtauld, Major J. S. Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Phillpson, Mabel
Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Hurd, Percy A. Pilcher, G.
Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Illffe, Sir Edward M. Pilditch, Sir Philip
Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Radford, E. A.
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Raine, Sir Walter
Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Ramsden, E.
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Kennedy. A. R. (Preston) Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)
Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovll) King, Commodore Henry Douglas Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Knox, Sir Alfred Remer, J. R.
Davies, Dr. Vernon Lamb, J. Q. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Southby, Commander A. R. J. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland) Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Ropner, Major L. Steel, Major Samuel Strang Watts, Sir Thomas
Salmon, Major I. Storry-Deans, R. Wells, S. R.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Streatfeild, Captain S. R. White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Sandeman, N. Stewart Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Sanders, Sir Robert A. Templeton, W. P. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Sanderson, Sir Frank Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Sandon, Lord Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Withers, John James
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell. Womersley, W. J.
Savery, S. S. Tinne, J. A. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Rentrew, W.) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Wright, Brig.-General W. O.
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough
Skelton, A. N. Waddington, R. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) Major Sir Wtlliam Cope and Captain Wallace.
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.) Warner, Brigadier-General W. W
Smith-Carington, Neville W. Warrender, Sir Victor

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."


I am going to ask my Friends to follow me in the Lobby against Clause 2 standing part of the Bill. I do so because I have had to ask several Friends of mine not to press perfectly sound and important Amendments, and we have got through what we thought were in many cases important issues in about an hour or an hour and a half. We have been driven to do this because, unless we do so, we shall never be able to discuss the most important Clause of

the Bill, and, although Clause 2 may be a perfectly sound Clause, I ask my Friends to vote against it as a protest against the extreme rigour of the Guillotine, and the proved impossibility now of ever debating this Bill. On these grounds I think we are entitled to vote against every Clause when the Question that it stand part of the Bill comes before the Committee.

Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 209; Noes, 126.

Division No. 65.] AYES. [8.39 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Cooper, A. Duff Gunston, Captain D. W.
Albery, Irving James Couper, J. B. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Courtauld, Major J. S. Hamilton, Sir George
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Hanbury, C.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Cowan. Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn, N.) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Astor, Viscountess Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Hartington, Marquess of
Atkinson, C. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Balfour, George (Hempstead) Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) Haslam, Henry C.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) Henderson, Capt. R.R. (Oxf'd, Henley)
Berry, Sir George Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovll) Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian
Bethel, A. Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Bestterton, Henry B. Davies, Dr. Vernon Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Herbert, S. (York, N.R.,Scar. & Wh'by)
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Dawson, Sir Philip Hilton, Cecil
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Dean, Arthur Wellesley Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Brass, Captain W. Edmondson, Major A. J. Hopkins, J. W. W.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Elliot, Major Walter E. Hudson, Capt. A. U.M. (Hacknev. N.)
Briscoe, Richard George Ellis, R. G. Hume, Sir G. H.
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s.-M.) Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Hurd, Percy A.
Buchan, John Falle, Sir Bertram G. Illffe, Sir Edward M.
Buckingham, Sir H. Fielden, E. B. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Bullock, Captain M. Finburgh, S. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Burman, J. B. Forestler-Walker, Sir L. Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)
Campbell, E. T. Forrest, W. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Carver, Major W. H. Foxcroft, Captain C. T. King, Commodore Henry Douglas
Cassels, J. D. Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E. Knox, Sir Alfred
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth.S.) Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Lamb. J. O.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Chapman, Sir S. Glyn, Major R. G. C. Livingstone, A. M.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Goff, Sir Park Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Christie, J. A. Grace, John Long, Major Eric
Clarry, Reginald George Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Looker, Herbert William
Clayten, G. C. Greene, W. P. Crawford Lougher, Lewis
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Cohen, Major J. Brunel Grotrian, H. Brent Lumley, L. R.
MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Phillipson, Mabel Streatfeild, Captain S. R.
Macintyre, I. Pilcher, G. Stuart, Crichton, Lord C.
Macmllian, Captain H. Pliditch, Sir Philip Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Macquisten, F. A. Radford, E. A. Templeton, W. P.
Mac Robert, Alexander M. Raine, Sir Walter Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Ramsden, E. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Makins, Brigadier-General E. Reid, Capt. Cunnlngham(Warrington) Tinne, J. A.
Malone, Major P. B. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Mannlngham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Remer, J. R. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Margesson, Captain D. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough
Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Waddlngton, R.
Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Wallace, Captain D. E.
Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Ropner, Major L. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Salmon, Major I. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Warrender, Sir Victor
Moreing, Captain A. H. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Sandeman, N. Stewart Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Sanders, Sir Robert A. Watts, Sir Thomas
Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph Sanderson, Sir Frank Wells, S. R.
Nelson, Sir Frank Sandon, Lord White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple.
Neville, Sir Reginald J. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Guttave D. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Savery, S. S. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D.Mcl.(Renfrew, W.) Windsor-Clive, Lieut. Colonel George
Nuttall, Ellis Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Withers, John James
O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Skelton, A. N. Womersley, W. J.
Oman, Sir Charles William C. Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Penny, Frederick George Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Klnc'dlne, C.) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Smith-Carington, Neville W. Wright, Brig.-General W. D.
Perkins, Colonel E. K. Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Perring, Sir William George Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple. Steel, Major Samuel Strang Major Sir William Cope and Mr. F. C. Thomson.
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Storry-Deans, R.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Scrymgeour, E.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Scurr, John
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hirst, G. H. Sexton, James
Ammon, Charles George Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Hollins, A. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Baker, Walter Hore-Bellsha, Leslie Shiels, Dr. Drummond.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Shinwell, E.
Batey, Joseph John, William (Rhondda, West) Sitch, Charles H
Beckett, John (Gateshead) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Bellamy, A. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Smillie, Robert
Benn, Wedgwood Kelly, W. T. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhlthe)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Kennedy, T. Snell, Harry
Broad, F. A. Kirk wood, D. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Bromfield, William Lansbury, George Stamford, T. W.
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Lawrence, Susan Stephen, Campbell
Buchanan, G. Lawson, John James Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Cape, Thomas Lee, F. Strauss, E. A.
Charleton, H. C. Longbottom, A. W. Sullivan, J.
Cluse, W. S. Lowth, T. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Connolly, M. Lunn, William Thurtle, Ernest
Cove, W. G. Mackinder, W. Tinker, John Joseph
Crawfurd, H. E. MacLaren, Andrew Tomllnson, R. P.
Dalton, Hugh Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Davies, David (Montgomery) MacNeill-Weir, L. Viant, S. P.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Day, Harry March, S. Watson, W. M (Dunfermline)
Dennison, R. Maxton, James Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Dunnico, H. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Edge, Sir William Mosley, Sir Oswald Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah
Fenby, T. D. Murnln, H. Wellock, Wilfred
Gibbins, Joseph Nayfor, T. E. Westwood, J.
Gillett, George M. Oliver, George Harold Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Palin, John Henry Whiteley, W.
Greenall, T. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Grentell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Ponsonby, Arthur Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Griffiths, F. Kingsley Potts, John S. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Richardson, H. (Houghton-le-Spring) Windsor, Waiter
Grundy, T. W. Riley Ben Wright, W.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) Ritson, J. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hardle, George D. Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Harris, Percy A. Saklatvala, Shapurjl TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hayday, Arthur Salter, Dr. Alfred Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Hayes

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.