HC Deb 11 April 1928 vol 162 cc1218-25
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE

I wish to ask a question of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister with regard to the Orders of the Day.

Mr. SHINWELL

On a point. of Order. I wish to ask whether it is not a rule of this House Iliac, a question on the Orders of the Day cannot be put without notice, unless it be on a question of Order?

Mr. SPEAKER

This question is with regard to the arrangement of business, and is one which may be properly put now.

Mr. SHINWELL

On a further point of Order, with regard to that question, Mr. Speaker. Is it not traditional, with regard to questions arising out of the Orders of the Day at. this time, that the right of submitting such questions is the prerogative of the Leader of the Opposition?

Mr. SPEAKER

This question, as I understand, does not in the least anticipate certain other questions which the Leader of the Opposition is going to ask.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

We do not want the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) to jump our claim. We have had some of him.

Mr. SPEAKER

I think the House will recognise that I should first call on the Leader of the Opposition with regard to ordinary questions of this kind, but that does not disable any other hon. Member from putting such questions, and I think the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Shinwell) has himself asked questions regarding the business of the day.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE

I only wish to ask a question with regard to the discussion on agriculture, which was to take place to-day. I ask my right hon. Friend whether, having regard to the changed conditions and to the fact. that he has a very important Motion down on the Paper which may take some time, and also having regard to the extreme importance of having a full Debate upon the agricultural proposals, the Government propose, in the circumstances, to proceed with the Debate to-day, or whether they cannot see their way to give an early day to the discussion on agriculture?

Mr. PRETYMAN

Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, may I ask him whether he is aware of the extreme urgency of an immediate statement of the Government's intention, and whether that is not even more important than that the Debate should be prolonged to a late hour in the morning?

Mr. BALDWIN

My right hon. Friend would be only too pleased to comply with the request of my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) if it were possible, but the difficulty is this. This Debate on the Agriculture question has been awaited with great interest and anticipation for some time past. If it were postponed it is impossible now to say how soon we could give a day for it. There is no possibility of a day in the near future, and having regard to the critical position of agriculture—[HON. MEMBERS: "And of the Government! "]—in certain parts of the country, it is most desirable that, at all events, the Minister of Agriculture should he able to make his statement on behalf of the Government to-night. I hope, indeed, it may be possible to give considerable time to the discussion, and we must all regret that, owing to the circumstances which exist, the time must be curtailed.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE

Do I understand from the right hon. Gentleman's statement that the Government do not contemplate bringing the discussion to an end, and that they merely mean that an opportunity will be afforded to the Minister of Agriculture to make a statement to-day and that the Government will consider the question of affording further time for discussion?

Mr. BALDWIN

I think that is a perfectly fair request, and we shall be quite ready to accede to it.

Mr. SPEAKER

The hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition has given me notice of certain points of Order, and I understand it would be most convenient to take those when the first Order of the Day is called.

Mr. J. RAMSAY MacDONALD

I wish to put two questions regarding the business of to-day and to-morrow. First, I think it is usual after an incident like that of last night that the Government should make a statement before proceeding with further business. How is that proposed to be done to-day? Secondly, what is the business proposed for to-morrow?

Mr. BALDWIN

In answer to the first part of the question, I propose to say a few words, and a few words only, on the Motion which stands in the name of the Prime Minister. In answer to the second part of the question, the business will be a continuation of the business of yesterday, namely, to move the Speaker out of the Chair on the Civil Service Estimates and proceed with the, Votes which were put down for yesterday, and, after 11 o'clock, to take the Army (Annual) Bill, Committee stage.

Mr. MacDONALD

With reference to the announcement that the Government will make a statement upon this Motion to set up a Committee of Supply, is it proposed that the Debate upon that question shall be so wide that the whole question of what took place yesterday and its consequences can be raised?

Mr. BALDWIN

I think we must leave that point in the discretion of the Chair.

Mr. MacDONALD

Then I put the question to you, Mr. Speaker, if it is your intention to rule in such a way that on the discussion of this Motion as great liberty will be given for Debate as would be given if the Government were to move "That the House do now adjourn "

Mr. SPEAKER

On the Motion "That the House do now adjourn," we may discuss things all round the world.

Mr. MacDONALD

May I, with your leave, Sir, correct my question? Will the Debate be as wide as a Debate upon the Adjournment Motion, as far as the events of yesterday are concerned—in that respect only?

Mr. SPEAKER

The Motion which stands in the name of the Prime Minister is to restore the dropped Order of Supply. The Order was dropped by reason of the incident of yesterday. Therefore, discussion can take place on any matter relevant to the incident which calls for this Motion. That, I think, is quite clear,

Motion made, and Question put,

That the Proceedings on any Motion for the Adjournment of the House moved by the Government be exempted at this day's Sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]

The House divided: Ayes, 278: Noes, 191.

Division No. 78.] AYES. [4.3 p.m.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) Curzon, Captain Viscount Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton) Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)
Apsley, Lord Davidson, J. C. C.(Hemel Hempstead) Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)
Archer-Shee, Lieut-Colonel Martin Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Jephcott, A. R.
Baird, Rt. Han. Sir John Lawrence Dawson, Sir Philip Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Joynson-Hicks, Sir William
Balfour. George (Hampstead) Doyle, N. Grattan Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)
Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Kennedy, Captain M. S Nigel
Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Edmondson, Major A. J. King, Captain Henry Douglas
Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague Ednam, Viscount Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Barnett, Major Richard W. Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.
Barnston, Major Harry Ellis. R. G. Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)
Becker, Harry Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Bell, Lieut.Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Erskine-Bolsi, Captain C. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Lorden, John William
Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Falcon, Captain Michael Lorimer, H. D.
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Lort-Williams. J.
Berry, Sir George Fawkes. Major F. H. Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Fermor-Hesketh, Major T. Lumley, L. R.
Blades, Sir George Rowland Ford, Patrick Johnston Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Blundell, F. N. Foreman, Sir Henry McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Maltland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Brass, Captain W. Frece, Sir Walter de Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
Brassey, Sir Leonard Furnes, G. J. Manville, Edward
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Garland, C. S. Margesson, H. D. R.
Briggs, Harold Gates, Percy Martin, A. E. (Essex, Romford)
Brittain, Sir Harry Goff, Sir R. Park Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Gould, James C. Mercer, Colonel H.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Gray, Harold (Cambridge) Milne, J. S. Ward law
Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)
Bruford. R. Greenwood, William (Stockport) Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Bruton, Sir James Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E, Molloy, Major L. G. S.
Buckingham, Sir H. Gwynne, Rupert S. Molson, Major John Elsdale
Buckey. Lieut.-Colonel A. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W.D'by) Morden, Col. W. Grant
Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Halstead, Major D. Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)
Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge) Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honlton)
Butcher, Sir John George Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Murchison, C. K.
Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Nall, Major Joseph
Butt, Sir Alfred Harrison, F. C. Nesbitt, Robert C.
Button, H. S. Harvey, Major S. E. Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Flnchley)
Cadogan, Major Edward Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Calne, Gordon Hall Henn, Sir Sydney H. Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Cassels, J. D. Herbert. Col. Hon. A. (Yeovll) Nicholson, Brig.-Gen.J. (Westminster)
Cautley, Henry Strother Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Nield, Sir Herbert
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hewett, Sir J. P. Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John
Cecil. Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hiley, Sir Ernest Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Paget, T. G.
Chilcott, Sir Warden Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Parker, Owen (Kettering)
Churchman, Sir Arthur Hoher, Gerald Fitzroy Pennefather, De Fonbianque
Clayton, G. C. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Penny, Frederick George
Coates, Lt.-Col. Norman Hood, Sir Joseph Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Cobb, Sir Cyril Hopkins, John W. W. Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Cockerill. Brigadier-General G. K. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Perring, William George
Cohen, Major J. Brunel Home, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Pielou, D. P.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Houfton, John Plowright Pilditch, Sir Philip
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Howard, Capt, D, (Cumberland, N.) Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray
Cope, Major William Howard-Bury, Lieut-Col. C. K. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff. South) Hudson, Capt. A. Preston, Sir W. R.
Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Hughes. Collingwood Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hume, G H. Privett, F. J.
Croft. Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Raeburn, Sir William H.
Crook C. W. (East Ham, North) Hurd, Percy A. Raine, W.
Rankin, Captain James Stuart Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Tubbs, S. W.
Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel Shepperson, E. W. Turton, Edmund Russborough
Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Shipwright, Captain D. Wallace, Captain E.
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Simms. Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)
Remnant, Sir James Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Waring, Major Walter
Rentoul, G. S. Skelton, A. N. Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)
Reynolds, W. G. W. Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Wells, S. R.
Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend) Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness) White, Col. G D. (Southport)
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Sparkes, H. W. Willey, Arthur
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Stanley, Lord Winter-ton, Earl
Robertson, J. D. (Islington, W ) Steel, Major S. Strang Wise, Frederick
Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth Wolmer. Viscount
Rothschild, Lionel de Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)
Roundell, Colonel R. F. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Wood. Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)
Russell, William (Bolton) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Woodcock, Colonel H. c.
Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Sutcliffe, T. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Yale, Colonel Sir Charles Edward
Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford. Henley) Yerburgh, R. D. T.
Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Sandon, Lord Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.-
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D Titchfield, Marquess of Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
NOES.
Adams, D. Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.) Murray. R. (Renfrew, Western)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) Newbold, J. T. W.
Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark) Guthrle, Thomas Maule Nichol, Robert
Asqulth, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Hall, F. (York. W.R., Normanton) O'Connor, Thomas P.
Attlee, C. R. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) O'Grady Captain James
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Oliver, George Harold
Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) Hancock, John George Paling, W.
Batey, Joseph Hardie, George D. Parker, H. (Hanley)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Harris, Percy A. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Berkeley, Captain Reginald Hayday, Arthur Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)
Bonwick, A. Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Phillipps, Vivian
Bowdler, W. A. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.) Philipson, Hilton
Briant, Frank Herriotts. J. Ponsonby, Arthur
Broad, F. A. Hirst, G. H. Potts, John S.
Brotherton, J. Hogge. James Myles Pringle, W. M. R.
Buchanan, G. Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy) Rees, Sir Beddoe
Buckle, J. Irving, Dan Richardson, R. (Houghton-le Spring)
Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Riley, Ben
Buxton, Charles (Accrington) John, William (Rhondda, West) Ritson, J.
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Johnston. Thomas (Stirling) Roberts, C. H. (Derby)
Cape, Thomas Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)
Chapple. W. A. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Clarke, Sir E. C. Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Jones, T. l. Mardy (Pontypridd) Rose, Frank H.
Collins, Pat (Walsall) Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Royce, William Stapleton
Collison, Levi Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools) Saklatvala, s.
Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Salter, Dr. A.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Kenyon, Barnet Scrymgeour. E.
Darbishire, C. W. Kirkwood, D. Sexton, James
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lansbury, George Shakespeare, G. H.
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Lawson. John James Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)
Dudgeon, Major C. R. Leach, W. Shaw, Thomas (Preston)
Duffy, T. Gavan Lee, F. Shinwell. Emanuel
Dunnico, H. Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Ede, James Chuter Linfield, F. C. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Edge, Captain Sir William Lowth, T. Simpson, J. Hope
Edmonds, G. McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. Sinclair, Sir A.
Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) Sitch, Charles H.
England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Smith, T. (Pontefract)
Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.) M'Entee, V. L. Snell, Harry
Evans. Ernest (Cardigan) McLaren, Andrew Snowden, Philip
Fairbairn, R. R. Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Spencer. George A. (Broxtowe)
Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James l. Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)
Foot, Isaac March, S. Stephen, Campbell
George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) Strauss, Edward Anthony
Gilbert, James Daniel Maxton, James Sturrock, J. Leng
Gosling, Harry Middleton, G. Sullivan, J.
Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Millar, J. D. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Gray, Frank (Oxford) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Morltz Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough. West)
Greenall, T. Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coine) mosley, Oswald Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Muir. John W. Thornton, M.
Griffiths. T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Murnin, H. Tillett. Benjamin
Groves, T. Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) ' Trevelyan, C. P.
Grundy, T. W. Murray, John (Leeds, West) Turner, Ben
Wallhead, Richard C. Wheatley, J. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Warne, G. H. White, Charles F, (Derby, Western) Winfrey, Sir Richard
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Whiteley, W. Wright, W.
Webb, Sidney Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)
Weir, L. M. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Welsh, J. C. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Westwood, J. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) TELLERS FOR THE NOES —
Mr. Ammon and Mr. Lunn.

Question, "That this House will, to-morrow, resolve itself into the Committee of Supply—[Colonel Leslie Wilson]—put accordingly, and agreed to.