§ Again considered in Committee.
§ [Captain FITZROY in the Chair.]
Mr. SHAWJust before we went to another place, I was calling attention to the fact that the figures on which this Bill has been based assume that by 1929 1884 200,000 of the present unemployed will have work and the normal increase in the working population will have been absorbed. I hope the Minister will not think that anything I am saying has any personal application at all. It is a matter for which the Minister has to take responsibility, and I am speaking strictly without personalities. But really, we cannot afford, as a Committee, to discuss a Bill on the basis of what the Minister thinks will take place in 1929. That is surely an unheard-of proposition. If the Minister had said to us, "Here is a condition of affairs, but we must take into consideration that this condition of affairs may change," one could have understood it, but, frankly, to issue a White Paper on deductions which have no basis of actual fact and on assumptions that have not the validity of a doctor's diagnosis, but are, as it were, a spring into the blue—that is scarcely good enough as the basis for an important Bill. The lives of hundreds of thousands of decent unemployed working people depend upon whether the Minister's guess is realised or not, and I suggest that before we go on with the discussions of the Clauses of this Bill, we have a right to ask the Minister to tell us what is the state of affairs now, and what, if the Bill were put into operation to-morrow, it would mean to the people of this country under present conditions, and thus let us form an idea of the case.
It is only on the basis of assumption like this that the Minister arrives at his figure that this Bill will deprive of benefit only 30,000 workers who would get it under present conditions. I do not get it under present conditions. I do not want to go outside the bounds of order, and I do not want to use the privilege of moving to report Progress for the purpose of entering into an argument not germane to the White Paper, but I am allowed to say that it is only on the basis of the assumption that this miracle will take place that the Minister makes his statement that there will be thrown out of benefit only 30,000 who would have got benefits if the present conditions obtained. May I call the Minister's attention to a very remarkable fact. On his own showing, even with the assumption that he is going to have the improvements that he prognosticates, for which, unfortunately, he has no proof, it 1885 is quite evident that 56,000, and not 30,000, is the number of those who will be taken off benefits. [An HON. MEMBER: "More!"] I said assuming the Minister gets the result he hopes for and that a benevolent Providence showers its blessings upon him. This White Paper has been drawn up in the spirit of the excursion bills of a Scottish railway: "The excursion will run at 11.30 a.m., 30th May, D.V." and God will have to be very willing indeed and very benevolent if the Minister gets what he wishes under this White Paper. "But," says the Minister, "even if this Bill does deprive 56,000 people of benefit, it adds 26,000 people who are not getting benefit now." Let me use a homely illustration. If I had to say to John Smith and Tom Robinson—
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe hon. Gentleman is going beyond the actual Motion before the Committee. He ought not to anticipate the debate that will take place on Clause 5.
Mr. SHAWI do not want to run against your Ruling, and I have not the slightest desire to use this opportunity for a discussion which will probably take place on the Clauses, but, after all, we are asked to discuss these Clauses on the basis of this White Paper, and I am entitled to point out that there will be taken off benefit by this Bill 56,000 people who would get benefit if the present conditions obtained, and that the Minister's number is based on an assumption that a miracle is going to happen, and that in some way, by some intervention of Providence, we are going to have a very marked difference inside the next year or 18 months in the labour situation. I venture to suggest that the White Paper gives no indication of any such miracle and we must look upon the cold facts of the situation. The cold facts are as disclosed by this White Paper, and these Clauses which the Minister asks us to discuss are Clauses which will remove a very large number of people from benefit, and the figures he has given in the White Paper are figures based upon assumptions which are quite unjustifiable, and on prophecies that ought never to have been made.
§ The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Arthur Steel-Maitland)The right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down 1886 accused me of playing poker in producing this White Paper. I am sure he wished to make no personal reflection, and I am sure he will realise that it is no personal insinuation in return if I say that the party opposite, in moving to report Progress, are taking a leaf out of the book of Danton who, when in difficulty, said,
Audacity, more audacity, always audacity.In the first place, our authority for bringing in this Bill, our primary authority, was the careful inquiries made by the Blanesburgh Committee. It was their recommendation that this 30 contributions condition should be imposed. They were all satisfied, and they had their own actuarial investigations. The Committee had their own reasons, which apparently were sufficient for each member of the Committee who signed the Report, and I should have imagined that the reasons that were sufficient for them would have been sufficient for the right hon. Gentleman. At any rate, their first and primary reason was that they had made careful inquiries into the subject. They were all unanimously satisfied, and they therefore made the recommendation.8.0 P.M.
It was not a question of what I might happen to think. It was a question of what, after all their investigations—the Blanesburgh Committee thought, and what in following them we were satisfied was the proper Measure to introduce. This White Paper is of a different character from what the right hon. Gentleman has described. It is not the basis of the whole business. I took what the lawyers call "abundant caution." I had sufficient basis for all necessary purposes in the Report of the Blanesburgh Committee, but as the Department carries out inquiries on many subjects, I took the opportunity of one of their inquiries to get a supplementary check of the results the new condition would produce. As the whole Committee are well aware, the Blanesburgh Committee suggested that the 30 contributions rule should come into force at the end of the transitional period. Therefore, if my supplementary check was to be of any use at all as a guide, I had to try to see what would be the result at the end of the transitional period. The right hon. Gentleman objects to my using what I think are 1887 perfectly well-founded hypotheses for that, but I do not think he or anyone else could claim a sort of Papal infallibility in saying what actually will be the effects at the end of the transitional period. If the hon. Members opposite wish to cut out the transitional period, that is another matter, but if they want to have a transitional period, as the Blanesburgh Committee also wish, then one has to estimate the position at the end of that period. It was right and prudent to try to get a supplementary check, and that is what I did, and I stand to the different reasons which led me to form that conclusion.
I would ask the Committee to observe how entirely unjustified is this Motion to report Progress by contrasting the action which this Government have taken with the action which was taken by the right hon. Gentleman himself in his own administration. It is a case of the 30 contributions rule in each case. We bring in a 30 contributions rule, and it is proposed that it should begin to take effect in 18 months. Having already the authority of the Blanesburgh Committee to bring it into effect at the end of the transitional period, we take pains again to cross check it by getting the best idea we can of what will be the result. Further, as it will be introduced at the end of the transitional period, should any cataclysm or disaster occur in the meantime, and our calculations be very far from being realised—which I do not for a moment anticipate—there would be time for Parliament to take action with regard to the situation. That is what we propose. Contrast that with the action taken by the right hon. Gentleman who now poses as a critic and asks us to delay proceedings. The 30 contributions rule was his own baby. He first introduced it in the Act of 1924. When he introduced it he took power to waive it until the October of the year following. But mark the conditions of the waiver! In the year in which he introduced it, in 1924, the unemployment position had been consistently less good than it has been this year, after the recovery from the coal stoppage, so that at least he had no greater grounds for optimism than we have at this moment. At the same time, he absolutely refused to consider at the end of the time of 1888 waiver any alteration in his system. I have his own words. He was asked whether he would take power when his limited time for waiver was over to reconsider it. "No," said he, "I will have no reconsideration of my system until three years are up as a minimum." Far from having the Blanesburgh or any other inquiry on which to found himself—at least any which he communicated to the House—he gave no estimate, no reason, nothing of the kind at all to this House or to anyone else. Having given an ipse dixit, he refused to consider the possibility of waiving the provision at the end of 18 months, although the prospects were not so good as at present. In these circumstances when I consider the difference between the real caution with which I have acted, with greater grounds for optimism, and the manner in which the right hon. Gentleman acted, I can see no earthly reason for reporting Progress on this question to-night.
§ Mr. ARTHUR GREENWOODThe speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister has been remarkable chiefly for its irrelevancies. What he has in fact done has been to occupy the second half of his speech with a problem which might have arisen on Clause 5 but has nothing whatever to do with the document with which we are now concerned. The question of the 30 stamps is not the question at the moment. The real question is whether this document is of the slightest value to members of the Committee. That is why, as we understood, the right hon. Gentleman was prepared to lay a White Paper. He has based the greater part of his argument on the Blanesburgh Report. Let us see what that amounts to. Unfortunately, on statistical questions of this kind politicians are on very dangerous and treacherous ground. I speak as one who has had, professionally, to handle statistics, and I know the danger of embarking on this question. For example, I can conceive cases where the 1 per cent. sample could be statistically defended. But I do not press my own views on this matter, I will refer to the Government Actuary. What he says is based on the fourth inquiry made by the Minister of Labour into the 1 per cent. sample examination. Three of these examinations were before the Government Actuary when he presented his report to the Blanesburgh Committee. In dealing with 1889 the very question to which the right hon. Gentleman has devoted the greater part of his speech, the number of qualifying contributions, he says:
In regard to (ii)—the qualifying number of contributions—I regret that I have been unable to find any statistics which would enable the relief to be derived from this provision to be authoritatively measured.While for certain purposes the 1 per cent. sample might be scientifically defended, on this occasion no less an authority than the Government Actuary has denied the value of the three reports which have been issued on the same basis.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDWill the hon. Member take into account one fact which has apparently not been brought to his notice? The 1 per cent. inquiry has not been on exactly the same lines in all the previous cases. There was no specific question put in the course of the previous inquiries which would enable that information to be at the disposal of the Actuary, but it was introduced in this one, as I said, as a sort of supplementary check. That statement by the Actuary was made before this particular inquiry was carried out, which made possible the additional piece of information desired.
§ Miss LAWRENCEThe White Paper says:
This was the fourth inquiry made by the Ministry of Labour in which the method of taking a small sample has been adopted and it has been proved that.… the method can be relied upon to yield results which are sufficiently representative of the whole field.The "it has been proved" in the White Paper refers to the other three inquiries, with regard to which the Government Actuary says that he has had the data from the Minister of Labour but considers it actuarially insufficient.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDIt has been proved that a 1 per cent. inquiry is a satisfactory way of arriving at reliable results, from the standpoint of any statistician. In this case it is reliable for producing other results than this one. Its reliability in general having been proved, this information is obtained and gives reliable results.
§ Mr. GREENWOODThe right hon. Gentleman's answer mystifies me even more, no doubt, than it mystifies the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. H. Williams). The point is the 1 per cent. sample is drawn from cases from which in previous inquiries the same information could have been drawn. The question as to what was asked for does not arise, because on the cards from which this inquiry was made the same information was available in the course of the first three inquiries as was available in the fourth. I am not advancing my view as to the validity of the 1 per cent. sample, but I am saying that if the Government Actuary is unable to find any statistics that will give him any real guidance, why should we place any reliance on this anonymous document which is now before us? Goodness knows where it has emanated from. The Government Actuary has certainly not put his name to it, and so I assume he accepts no responsibility. Let us assume a sample yields figures upon which one can base certain results. But the reliability of this document does not rest upon whether that 1 per cent. sample is right or not, it rests upon the fact that three quite separate hypotheses are made from which results are deduced. Let me take the question which arises on page 3 of the Memorandum, in reference to an allowance in respect of the effect of coal mining.
This method assumes that but for the coal mining stoppage of 1926, the contribution experience of coal-mining claimants in April 1925-April 1927, would have been no worse on the average than that of claimants from all other industries taken together.That is worthy of examination. The document says in effect, "Having got these figures from the 1 per cent. calculation, we must now begin to play about with them with a view to reducing them, and the first argument for reducing them is that in the coal areas last year there was an abnormal situation. We are to assume that if that abnormal situation had not obtained in 1926 the average rate of unemployment—that is what it amounts to—from 1925 to 1927 in coal mining would have been the same as it was in all the rest of the industries of the country. That is a preposterous statement. If this document were to try to substantiate that point, it would have to put in parallel columns the monthly figures of unemployed for that two- 1891 year period in the coal mines and in the other industries. Since this document came into my hands I have not been able to examine the returns in detail, but taking the period from April, 1925, to April, 1927, over most of it the unemployment figure in relation to coal mining was higher than for the country as a whole. That disposes of this case, but that is not all. If you take the figures for the country as a whole, they include this swollen unemployment in coal mining, and, if you take out coal mining, the disparity between unemployment in coal mining and the other industries is greater still. If you start with a case like that and introduce one hypothesis which will not stand examination, the results of your statement are absolutely nothing. I think it is perfectly unwarrantable to begin to deduct from the number of unemployed a number of miners because in two years their unemployment figure has been above the normal. That is the first of these hypotheses on which this document is built.The second hypothesis is that the percentage rate of unemployment among insured persons on 25th April, 1927, was 9.3, and, on the assumption that the present tendency for unemployment continues, and is not interrupted by abnormal conditions, it may be anticipated that during the years ending April, 1929–30 the rate of unemployment will not exceed 8 per cent. That is an assumption for which there is no real warrant.
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThese arguments might be used in a discussion on Clause 5, but it is going rather too far to anticipate the discussion on Clause 5 on a Motion to report Progress.
§ Mr. GREENWOODI am not raising the question of Clause 5. I have made only one reference to the main provisions of that Clause. My point is that the whole of this Bill is based upon certain statistical assumptions. We were promised a paper by the right hon. Gentleman dealing with those statistical assumptions. My argument is that this White Paper is entirely valueless.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDThat is not what I stated. What I said was 1892 that the primary authority was the Report of the Blanesburgh Committee. This is a supplementary check.
§ Mr. GREENWOODBut the Actuary's conclusion differs from that of the right hon. Gentleman.
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe argument which the hon. Member is using would be a suitable argument against the alteration which it is proposed to introduce into the law in Clause 5, but, beyond stating the dissatisfaction which is caused by the White Paper, we ought not to go into all the details of the White Paper in a discussion on a Motion to report Progress.
§ Mr. GREENWOODI do not want to go into the details, but a mere expression of dissatisfaction without giving the grounds for our dissatisfaction would not be intelligible to the Committee. I am simply dealing with the main proposals of the Memorandum, and I want to show why in my judgment the Committee should report Progress until we have further information.
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThose are arguments suitable to Clause 5, but it is going much too far to use them on a Motion to report Progress.
§ Mr. GREENWOODMy argument is not upon Clause 5, but has reference to the fact that the right hon. Gentleman promised a certain Paper which would enlighten us as to the basis of his calculations. This White Paper does not give us the information which we require, and I was pointing out that the special cases dealt with require further elucidation. On this question of the assumption with regard to the rate of unemployment in April, 1929, we are entitled to ask for a certain amount of information, which has not been given to us in the White Paper. My case against the White Paper is that it consists of one fact and three hypotheses, all of which are untrue and unsound. I was trying to show that the statement to the effect that the volume of unemployment was going to be reduced to 8 per cent. is not warranted by the statement of the Actuary.
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThat is exactly my point. All these arguments would be suitable arguments when Clause 5 is being discussed, but they are not in order upon a Motion to report Progress.
§ Miss LAWRENCEMay we argue whether the figure of 8 per cent. is too high or not? There are three points set forth. We are now discussing the question whether 8 per cent. or 9 per cent. is the proper figure. Is it not strictly germane to argue that the figure of 8 per cent. is too high a figure?
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANWe are discussing a Motion to report Progress, and the grounds for that may be shown. It may be argued that the White Paper gives insufficient information, but we cannot go beyond that.
§ Mr. GREENWOODThe case made out by my right hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw) for reporting Progress was that although we had received the White Paper we had not got the information we desired, and we really have not the information on which the three hypotheses contained in the White Paper are based. In a document of this kind you start with one basis of facts, and then three unknown factors. Each of those unknown factors we are challenging. We should like to have further information which would indicate to us what was in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman in setting forth these three hypotheses. The first is that coal mining could be regarded as normal; secondly, that the rate of unemployment was to be 8 per cent. in 1930; and, thirdly, that it is reasonable to assume that the average rate for the two years mentioned will not exceed 9 per cent. It is a matter of simple algebra that in a simple equation you cannot solve three unknown factors. This information leaves us without a basis on which we can effectively continue the discussion on the Bill. That is what I have to say on the first part of the White Paper, which deals with the question of the 30 contributions rule. That first part arrives, by these three wild hypotheses, at 56,000 further persons who will be deprived of benefit. Then the statement is made—
§ arguments might be suitable to any opposition he may have to Clause 5, they are not germane to a discussion on the question of reporting Progress.
§ Mr. GREENWOODI am very sorry; I should be very unwilling to challenge your ruling, but I am not discussing the question whether 30 contributions ought to be paid in two years. The right hon. Gentleman misunderstood our case, as I tried to point out, when he said that all that we were interested in was the question of the 30 contributions in two years. What we are really concerned about is to get the basis of information that will enable us to discuss the assumptions on which this Bill is founded, and what I am now trying to show to the Committee is that this White Paper does not give us that information; it is merely a farrago of nonsense and imagination with a little fact and a very large amount of assumption. In view of the assumptions that are made, the grounds for which are not set forth in the White Paper, I submit that we are entitled to complain. I should have liked to see a much more elaborate document giving the information on which the right hon. Gentleman based his hypotheses. We know many of the facts. The right hon. Gentleman stated yesterday and previously that he was acting on certain hypotheses, and what we really asked him for was the information which led him to make those hypotheses. Those three hypotheses are set forth in this White Paper without the information which would substantiate them, and on these grounds I think we are justified in moving to report Progress because the information which we sought has not been made available to us.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
§ Question put, "That the Question be now put."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 236; Noes, 136.
1897| Division No. 371.] | AYES. | [8.28 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Atkinson, C. | Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Bennett, A. J. |
| Albery, Irving James | Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Bethel, A. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Banks, Reginald Mitchell | Betterton, Henry B. |
| Apsley, Lord | Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Blrd, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Blrd, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent,Dover) | Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Bourne, Captain Robert Croft |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Perring, Sir William George |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Pilcher, G. |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Haslam, Henry C. | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Hawke, John Anthony | Preston, William |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Henderson, Capt. R.R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Radford, E. A. |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Brown,Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Remer, J. R. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Hilton, Cecil | Remnant, Sir James |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Cassels, J. D. | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Robinson, Sir T. (Lanc, Stretford) |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Salmon, Major I. |
| Christie, J. A. | Hume, Sir G. H. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Hurst, Gerald B. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Clayton, G. C. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Savery, S. S. |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Jephcott, A. R. | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Cope, Major William | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ.,Belf'st.) |
| Couper, J. B. | Lamb, J. Q. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne,C. |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Smithers, Waldron |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Loder, J. de V. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Looker, Herbert William | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Crookshank,Cpt. H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vers | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lumley, L. R. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Davies, Maj. Geo.F. (Somerset,Yeovil) | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | MacDonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Streatfelld, Captain S. R. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | MacIntyre, Ian | Styles, Captain H. Walter |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | McLean, Major A. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Dixey, A. C. | Macmillan, Captain H. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Drewe, C. | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Tasker, R Inigo. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Maltland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Ellis, R. G. | Margesson, Captain D. | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| England, Colonel A. | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s.-M.) | Meller, R. J. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Merriman, F. B. | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Meyer, Sir Frank | Waddington, R. |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Waiden) | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Finburgh, S. | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Forestier-Walker, sir L. | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Wells, S. R. |
| Fester, Sir Harry S. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Murchison, Sir Kenneth | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Nelson, Sir Frank | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| Glimour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Goff, Sir Park | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Withers, John James |
| Grace, John | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Grotrian, H. Brent | Nuttall, Ellis | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Oakley, T. | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | |
| Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hall, Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Mr. Penny and Major The Marquess |
| Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Pennefather, Sir John | of Titchfield. |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Barnes, A. | Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Batey, Joseph | Buchanan, G. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Cape, Thomas |
| Ammon, Charles George | Bondfield, Margaret | Charicton, H. C. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Clowes, S. |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Broad, F. A. | Cluse, W. S. |
| Baker, Walter | Bromfield, William | Compton, Joseph |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Connolly, M. |
| Cove, W. G. | Kennedy, T. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish universities) | Kirkwood, D. | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Lansbury, George | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Lawrence, Susan | Snell, Harry |
| Dennison, R. | Lawson, John James | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Duncan, C. | Lee, F. | Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles |
| Dunnico, H. | Lindley, F. W. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Lowth, T. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Fenby, T. D. | Lunn, William | Strauss, E. A. |
| Gardner, J. P. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon.J.R.(Aberavon) | Sutton, J. E. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Mackinder, W. | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.) |
| Gillett, George M. | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Gosling, Harry | MacNeill-Weir, L. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | March, S. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Greenall, T. | Maxton, James | Townend, A. E. |
| Greenwood, A (Nelson and Coine) | Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) | Varley, Frank B. |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Montague, Frederick | Vlant, S. P. |
| Groves, T. | Morris, R. H. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Grundy, T. W. | Murnin, H. | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Hall, F. (York. W. R., Normanton) | Naylor, T. E. | Watson, W. M. (Dumfermline) |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Oliver, George Harold | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Hardie, George D. | Palin, John Henry | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Harney, E. A. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Harris, Percy A. | Ponsonby, Arthur | Welsh. J. C. |
| Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Potts, John S. | Westwood, J. |
| Hayday, Arthur | Riley, Ben | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Hayes, John Henry | Ritson, J. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W.Bromwich) | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks,W.R.,Elland) | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Hirst, G. H. | Rose, Frank H. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) |
| Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Saklatvala, Shapurji | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Salter, Dr. Alfred | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Scrymgeour, E. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Scurr, John | Wright, W. |
| John, William (Rhondda, West) | Sexton, James | |
| Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Shaw, Rt. Hon Thomas (Preston) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis | Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. |
| Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | Whiteley. |
| Kelly, W. T. | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
§ Question put accordingly, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
1898§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 139; Noes, 235.
1901| Division No. 372.] | AYES. | [8.37 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Gillett, George M. | Lunn, William |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Gosling, Harry | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Mackinder, W. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Greenall, T. | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coins) | MacNeill-Weir, L. |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | March, S. |
| Baker, Walter | Groves, T. | Maxton, James |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Grundy, T. W. | Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) |
| Barnes, A. | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Montague, Frederick |
| Batey, Joseph | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Morris, R. H. |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Hardie, George D. | Murnin, H. |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Harney, E. A. | Naylor, T. E. |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Harris, Percy A. | Oliver, George Harold |
| Broad, F. A. | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Palin, John Henry |
| Bromfield, William | Hayday, Arthur | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Hayes, John Henry | Ponsonby, Arthur |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Potts, John S. |
| Buchanan, G. | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Riley, Ben |
| Cape, Thomas | Hirst, G. H | Ritson, J. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W.Bromwich) |
| Clowes, S. | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Rose, Frank H. |
| Compton, Joseph | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Saklatvala, Shapurji |
| Connolly, M. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Cove, W. G. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Scurr, John |
| Dalton, Hugh | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Sexton, James |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Kelly, W. T. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Kennedy, T. | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Dennison, R. | Kirkwood, D. | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Duncan, C. | Lansbury, George | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Dunnico, H. | Lawrence, Susan | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Lawson, John James | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) |
| Fenby, T. D. | Lee, F. | Smith. Rennie (Penistone) |
| Gardner, J. P. | Lindley, F. W. | Snell, Harry |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Lowth, T. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charies | Varley, Frank B. | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Stamford, T. W. | Viant, S. P. | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) |
| Stephen, Campbell | Wallhead, Richard C. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) |
| Strauss, E. A. | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Sullivan, J. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Sutton, J. E. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda.) | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.) | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah | Wright, W. |
| Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) | Wellock, Wilfred | |
| Thurtle, Ernest | Welsh, J. C. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Tinker, John Joseph | Westwood, J. | Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. |
| Townend, A. E. | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. | Whiteley. |
| Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. | Wiggins, William Martin | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | England, Colonel A. | Mac Robert, Alexander M. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s.-M.) | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- |
| Albery, Irving James | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Makins, Brigadier-General E. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn |
| Apsley, Lord | Everard, W. Lindsay | Margesson, Capt. D. |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J.(Kent,Dover) | Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Meller, R. J. |
| Atkinson, C. | Finburgh, S. | Merriman, F. B. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Meyer, Sir Frank |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Foster, Sir Harry S. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark). |
| Banks, Reginald Mitchell | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Fraser, Captain Ian | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Moore, Sir Newton J. |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Goff, Sir Park | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. |
| Bennett, A. J. | Grace, John | Murchison, Sir Kenneth |
| Bethel, A. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Grotrian, H. Brent | Nelson, Sir Frank |
| Blrd, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Neville, Sir Reginald J. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Hall, Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Hammers'ey, S. S. | Oakley, T. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Harland, A. | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Pennefather, Sir John |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks,Newb'y) | Haslam, Henry C. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Hawke, John Anthony | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Perring, Sir William George |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Henderson, Capt. R.R.(Oxf'd, Henley) | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) | Pilcher, G. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Preston, William |
| Cassels, J. D | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Hilton, Cecil | Radford, E. A. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Christie, J. A. | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Remer, J. R. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Remnant, Sir James |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Clayton, G. C. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Hume, Sir G. H. | Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Philip | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford) |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Hurst, Gerald B. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Salmon, Major I. |
| Cope, Major William | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Couper, J. B. | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Jephcott, A. R. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Kindersley, Major Guy M | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Savery, S. S. |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Lamb, J. Q. | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil) | Loder, J. de V. | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Looker, Herbert William | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Sinclair, Col.T. (Queen's Univ.,Belfst) |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Luce, Major-Gen.Sir Richard Harman | Smith, R.W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Lumley, L. R. | Smithers, Waldron |
| Dixey, A. C. | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Drewe, C. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | MacIntyre, Ian | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland) |
| Elliott, Major Walter E. | McLean, Major A. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Ellis, R. G. | Macmillan, Captain H. | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| Streatfeild, Captain S. R. | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Styles, Captain H. Walter | Waddington, R. | Withers, John James |
| Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser | Wallace, Captain D. E. | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Sugden, Sir Wilfrid | Ward, Lt.-Col.A. L. (Kingston-on-Hall) | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Tasker, R. Inigo. | Warrender, Sir Victor | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) | |
| Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) | Wells, S. R. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) | Mr. Penny and Major The Marquess |
| Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) | of Titchfield. |
| Tinne, J. A. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
§ CLAUSE 3.—(Periodical Investigation into Condition of Unemployment Fund.)
§ Mr. GREENWOODMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman how far he proposes to go to-night.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDI should like to get to about the first Schedule.
§ Mr. ERNEST BROWNI beg to move, in page 2, to leave out from the word "once," in line 19, to the word "cause" in line 21, and to insert instead thereof the words "in three years."
I move this Amendment because I feel the position of the Fund is so dubious within the next five years that Parliament ought to have a statutory right to review it at the shortest possible period. Inside the next five years the position of the Fund may be one of three. It may balance, there may be a deficit, or there may be a surplus. If it balances, it will prove that the assumptions underlying the Bill are fairly accurate. If there is a deficit, it will be necessary for Parliament to review the fund in the light of the experience of the working of the Measure, and take immediate action. Therefore, I think five years is much too long a period and three years a much better period. If, on the other hand, there is a surplus, a very vital problem arises for all insured contributors, as all insured contributors are interested in what will happen at the end of the extended period. When a surplus arises in this Fund, it is what is called an extended period, and then the Minister has power without reference to Parliament, as I understand it, under Regulations to cut down the maximum contributions. It is, therefore, of vital interest to all insured persons to have a review by Parliament on the Floor of the House of Commons at the earliest possible moment, so that they may have a full and frank discussion as to what will happen in the case of a surplus happening to the Fund through a lower rate of unemployment.
1902 The period with which this Clause deals is, in effect, as defined by Section 4 of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1925, the period to elapse between the present time and the end of the insurance year during which it is certified that the Unemployment Fund in the opinion of the Treasury, having regard to all the circumstances of the case, is solvent. It will be obvious to the Committee that there is a great deal of force behind this Amendment, because five years, in the position of the Fund at the moment, is a very long period. At the moment the interest on the debt of the Fund is equivalent to over £1,000,000 a year, according to the actuarial calculations, and should there be a great increase in unemployment, there will be an increased deficit. On the other hand, if in the assumption I make, we reach the extended period earlier, if the optimism of the right hon. Gentleman is justified, then all those who are interested in the Fund ought to have it brought before their notice in the most public way, that is to say, by Parliamentary action. The Clause, as the Committee will observe, says:
The Minister shall once at least in every five years, and if he thinks proper so to do may at shorter intervals, cause an investigation to be made, in such manner as the Treasury may approve.My Amendment would cut out his discretion in the matter and make it his statutory duty not within five years, but within three years, to take into consideration the condition of the Fund and to lay before Parliament a report of any investigation made under this Section. The actuary points out that:The position of the Fund under the new conditions will obviously be governed by the rate of unemployment prevailing from time to time.He goes further and says:In so far as the conditions which apply after the expiry of the 'extended period,' i.e., when the Fund is solvent, are concerned, it is appropriate, for the purpose of financial estimates, to consider the Fund as subject to the operation of a normal trade cycle.1903 Then he gives alternative bases of calculation as to whether there will or will not be a surplus of the Fund. These are the classes—(1) The rate of unemployment for which the maximum rates of contributions were charged permanently. The Fund would be solvent in his estimate if the income and the expenditure of the Fund balanced at a rate of unemployment of 7½ per cent., that is to say 1½ per cent. less than the prevailing rate at the moment—rather under than over 1½ per cent. (2) What annual amount of surplus would be available, on the average, for the reduction of these contributions if the rate of unemployment over the cycle were 6 per cent.? There would be an estimated surplus in that connection, and for that period, of £5,400,000. You will see therefore it is a very big thing, for £5,400,000 means the possibility of a reduction to the employers and to the employed of a penny each per week in the contribution, or alternatively such other reductions as the Minister, having the right under the Regulations, may determine. I ask the Minister to consider this point, because the position of the Fund has varied a great deal during the past four or five years. Perhaps the Committee will allow me to point out that between November, 1920, and November, 1926, £290,700,000 was paid out of this Fund in benefit, and during the same period contributions were received into the Fund—employers £102,000,000, employés £92,000,000, service departments £4,000,000, the State £69,000,000; that is to say, £267,000,000, leaving a deficit of £23,000,000, approximately the same deficit as we have now. The trouble is this, that the persistence of unemployment has thrown wholly out of gear the arrangement originally made in order to preserve a reasonable balance in the Fund between contributions paid and benefits received.I wish to argue that the actuarial figures taken much earlier deal with the fund referred to in the Clause I am now seeking to amend. These figures, for instance, run as follow: If the number of unemployed be four men to one woman and the rate of unemployment be 7 per cent., the surplus estimated will be £8,900,000. If the number of unemployed be four men to one woman again, and the rate of unemployment 8 per cent., the surplus will be £5,210,000. If the 1904 number of unemployed be four men to one woman and the rate of unemployment be 9 per cent.—the present rate—the surplus will be £1,680,000, whereas if the rate goes to 10 per cent.—supposing the maximum contributions are paid —the deficiency will be £1,410,000. If, on the other hand, as as present exists, the rate be 11 men to two women and the rate of unemployment be 7 per cent., the surplus will be £8,480,000, £4,474,000 at 8 per cent. and £1,170,000 at 9 per cent., whereas there will be a deficiency at 10 per cent. of £1,970,000. These figures are to be found in the Actuary's report on the financial provisions of the Bill in page 8, Command Paper 2966. It must be noted by the Committee that no provision is included for interest on the debt of the Unemployment Fund in arriving at these results. This liability varies with the amount of the debt, and the rate of interest charged on the debt by the Treasury at the present moment is £1,000,000 per annum. It must also be noted that any surplus remaining in a particular year, after providing for the interest on the debt then existing, will be applied to reduce the debt and thus to shorten the duration of the "extended period." This Clause with its suggestion of five years is based on Section 64 of the Blanesburgh Report, of which I wish to read just one passage with regard to actuarial soundness of the fund. On page 36, paragraph 64, they say, after a good deal of discussion, the following, the assumption being a trade cycle. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the trade cycle?"] We will come to that a little later. There is a long passage and these are the vital words:
It is impossible, of course, to predict with certainty that the experience anticipated will actually occur. Even actuaries are not prophets. But in order that neither a surplus nor a deficit should reach unwieldy proportions, we recommend that there be an actuarial inquiry into the position of the Fund every five years.I think the members of the Committee will have observed in the last two days that since that basis has been departed from, and since the position with regard to statistical evidence and actuarial knowledge is fairer than that possessed by the Commission, and since there is in 1927 over 9 per cent. of unemployment, to say that there will be a trade cycle of 6 per cent. seems to be very optimistic, and I am justified in claiming that this Com- 1905 mittee will do itself, the insured persons, the employers of the insured persons, the Fund and the national interests a very great service by passing this Amendment, which will make it statutory for whatever Minister is in power, within three years to review the Fund and report immediately to the House.
§ Mr. BUCHANANI have handed in a manuscript Amendment, and I should like to know whether it is convenient for the Chair to tell us whether that Amendment will be called.
§ The CHAIRMAN (Mr. James Hope)The Amendment is inconsistent with the one now under discussion. If the words are left out, the hon. Member for Leith's Amendment might be rejected and the other put in. Both Amendments cover the same point. If the words remain in, it will be impossible for the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) to move his Amendment.
§ Mr. BUCHANANSome of us feel that the three years period is too long. Should we be in order in arguing on the present Amendment that the period should be one year?
§ The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member could do that.
§ Mr. GREENWOODWould it be possible for the hon. Member for Gorbals to give notice that when the words are taken out he will move to insert new words.
§ The CHAIRMANIf and when the words are taken out we may consider that point.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. Betterton)I hope the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) will not persist in his Amendment. I do not question for a moment that he has moved it with the object of strengthening the Bill, and he has adduced reasons which seem to him satisfactory for attaining his object, but I wish to put one or two points which I hope will satisfy the Committee that the expectations of the hon. Member so far from being realised will probably have exactly the opposite effect. This Clause is founded directly on a recommendation of the Report of the Blanesburgh Committee. The Report says, on page 37, in the first paragraph:
In order that neither a surplus nor a deficit should reach unwieldy proportions, 1906 we recommend that there be an actuarial inquiry into the position of the Fund every five years. As a result of that inquiry any adjustments of contributions or benefits or both, on the lines of the scheme, which may appear to be necessary can be made.Having been based upon that recommendation in the Report the Bill reads as follows:The Minister shall once at least in every five years, and if he thinks proper so to do may at shorter intervals, cause an investigation to be made.9.0 p.m.Then, the hon. Member moves an Amendment in which he seeks to leave out the words "at least in every five years and if he thinks proper so to do may at shorter intervals," and to insert the words "in three years." The first comment I have to make on that is that as the hon. Member has drafted it, it is at least doubtful whether the result of his words, if inserted, would be that there would be one investigation in three years and no other. Therefore, it would limit the power of the Minister if he thinks proper to make an investigation at least in every five years, and if he thinks proper at shorter intervals. No doubt what the hon. Member desires is that every three years should be substituted for every five years, but I do not think his Amendment would have the effect which he desires. He asks that careful consideration should be given to the point. Both my right hon. Friend and myself have already given very careful consideration to the point, and the conclusion we have come to is that the Blanesburgh Report was right in recommending five years, with a discretionary power of the Minister if he has good reason to do so to order an investigation before the five years have elapsed. To put in three years would be inadequate for the purpose of making an investigation. It might be that one of the three years would be a year of depression and that the other two years might be a time when trade was better. Therefore, in the view of my right hon. Friend as well as mine it is necessary to have a longer period than three years in order to make a satisfactory investigation. That is the answer to the hon. Member. I assure him that this proposal of his did receive very careful consideration both from my right hon. Friend and myself.
As a matter of interest only, and I do not urge it as itself a sufficient 1907 reason for rejecting the Amendment, I may say that in health insurance there is a quinquennial valuation and in the Contributory Pensions Act the valuation is every 10 years, which has acted very well. I am not qualified to give an opinion as to why these periods were fixed, but I am informed that the two periods respectively of five years and 10 years have worked satisfactorily. For the reasons I have given, and while I hope the hon. Member will believe me when I say that I fully appreciate the motive with which he has moved this Amendment, I think the Committee would be well advised not to accept it.
§ Mr. WHEATLEYI had hoped that the reasoned case made out by the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) would have appealed to the mind of the Minister. If I may say so respectfully, I think the defence which the Minister has put up is weak. He began by founding his objection on the Blanesburgh Report. He said that the Committee recommended five years and not three, but I think I can claim that the Blanesburgh Committee contemplated a quite different Measure from the one now before the Committee. This Bill is not based on the recommendations of the Blanesburgh Committee and therefore it is quite unjustifiable to treat the Blanesburgh Committee's recommendations as being applicable to it. It is true that the Clause, as it stands, gives a discretionary power to the Minister of Labour to have an investigation more frequently than once in five years, but does any Member of the Committee believe that the Minister of Labour, or the Parliamentary Secretary, will seize the most frequent opportunities of coming to this House and telling us what is happening to this fund after their experience of the past few days. We have very seldom seen Ministers of the Crown in a more uncomfortable position than the Minister of Labour and the Parliamentary Secretary during the progress of this Bill.
The Parliamentary Secretary tells us that the quinquennial investigation into the Health Insurance Fund has proved very satisfactory. There has been one raid at least on that fund, and I should like to know whether a raid, as well as a quinquennial investigation, is in the mind of the Parliamentary Secretary when he asks us to accept this Measure with a 1908 provision in it which was accepted in the Health Insurance Act? The hon. Gentleman forgets that the Bill is not based on stability at all. It is based on instability. If there is one thing contemplated by this Bill it is quick changes in the unemployment conditions. It is based on the expectation that within 15 months, not within five years, we shall have a reduction of 33½ per cent. in the number of the unemployed. The hon. Gentleman has not enlightened the House very much as to how he expects the numbers of unemployed to be so rapidly decreased, but he and the Minister of Labour have time and time again appealed to the House to accept this as a probable happening within the next 15 months. If we are to have a reduction of 33½ per cent. within the first 15 months it would be interesting to know what we are to expect in the second 15 months, in the third 15 months, and in the fourth 15 months of the five years in which we are to be waiting for an investigation. Are we to have a reduction of 33⅓ per cent. in each of these periods? I am reminded by my hon. Friend that you cannot have four reductions of 33⅓ per cent. in the present figures, but that is just as likely to happen as we are to realise the expectations of the Minister of Labour and hon. Members opposite.
The point is this, that we are asked to pass a Measure which is based entirely on quick changes. If the hon. Member's expectations are realised, if the conditions of unemployment change rapidly, you require an investigation quickly into the fund that is dealing with unemployment. Why are we asked to wait for five years when we are passing a Measure which is based on a change in the whole situation within 15 months. If the hon. Member the Parliamentary Secretary is right the case for the Amendment is strong. I would go further and say that the subject ought to be brought under the supervision of this House at least once a year. There should be an annual investigation into the state of the fund, and Parliament should be consulted every year as to its condition. Suppose the hon. Member is wrong, and I do not agree with his prophecies as to the course unemployment will take in this country in the next two or three years. I take exactly the opposite view. I believe we are at the peak of a boom in trade. He may be right, or I may be 1909 right, but I am just as likely to be correct in my expectation as the hon. Member, and there is certainly as much evidence in support of my view as has been placed before the Committee in support of the contention of the hon. Member. If he is right he would be able to tell us which trade is likely to improve within the next 15 months. He has never ventured to do that. It is well known that the great bulk of our unemployment is to be found in certain large industries, the coal industry, the steel, cotton and shipbuilding industries, a very small number, numerically, of the industries of the country.
Where is this improvement in trade to take place? Is it in the coal industry? Is it in the shipbuilding industry? Is it in the steel trade? Is it in the cotton trade, or in agriculture, or in any of the principal industries on which the country depends? There is no evidence. My own opinion is that unemployment will increase substantially within the next two or three years. I am sorry to believe this, but I am perfectly convinced that unemployment is certain to increase rapidly and surpass in dimensions in the next two or three years anything we have previously experienced in this country, that is, assuming a continuance of the competitive system of fixing wages and prices. I see no indication of this system disappearing in the next 15 months, much as I wish it would. Suppose I am right in my expectation as to the future of industry in this country, is it right to fix five years as the period within which we are to investigate this Fund? I have no faith at all in the discretionary power of the Minister of Labour. The right hon. Gentleman, and I congratulate him on his discretion, will keep away from discussions in this House as often and as long as he can. The position of the Government is never strengthened by discussion on unemployment. The position of no Government is ever strengthened by such discussions, and I have a great deal of sympathy with the right hon. Gentleman and the Parliamentary Secretary in the positions they occupy. There is no more thankless position in the Government and public life of the country than to try and deal with unemployment within the competitive system.
1910 Suppose, for instance, there should be a further collapse of the coal industry within the next 12 months. That is not beyond our imagination. We see the industry crumbling every day. What condition of things would that land us into? It does not stop with the coal trade, it spreads to all kindred industries and affects the whole position of unemployment. Are we to wait five years before this House, which represents the people and to which is entrusted the government of this country, is to have an opportunity of investigating a fund to which the mass of the people subscribe and on which millions at least depend for their maintenance and livelihood? It is not merely the unemployed whose position will be jeopardised by a substantial change in the condition of employment, but you have the whole incidence of rating and taxation carried into this Fund. For instance, if, as I fear, the heavy industries in the North have to undergo more difficult times within the next year or two, it means that the maintenance of the North will be thrown more and more on the insured persons who live in the South. That in itself compels you to keep your eyes on this Fund. It would be a most mischievous proceeding to allow this Fund to drift for five years. It is a Fund with which we ought to keep in constant touch. The very nature of it compels constant stock-taking, and in no aspect of the unemployment problem is it more important that the House of Commons should keep its eye fixed on every movement that takes place than with regard to the finance that the country has to provide.
§ Mr. HARRISI quite appreciate that the Parliamentary Secretary is prepared to give consideration to this Amendment on business lines. It is largely a business proposition. I do not think he is prepared to justify the period of five years on the ground of accountancy. It is not merely a matter of money voted by this House. There is also the money provided by the insured persons, who want to know that they are contributing to a Fund that is actuarially sound. On the face of the Report of the Actuary we are almost bound to say that five years is much too long a period. I am not quite as pessimistic as the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, for I am 1911 still hopeful that economic conditions may improve in the next few years. It is mere optimism opposed to his pessimism. If my hopes are right there is all the more reason why the Fund should be examined from the point of view of accounting, and it may be possible then not only to improve the benefits but to reduce the contributions.
On the other hand, if the right hon. Gentleman is right, if his pessimism is justified, if trade becomes worse and unemployment increases, that is a greater justification for an earlier examination of the accounts, not at the discretion of the Minister or of a Government Department, but at a period fixed by the House of Commons. These are not voluntary contributions. If they were voluntary contributions it would be for the contributors to decide how often the Fund should be examined. These are contributions that every working man is compelled to make, whether he likes it or not. He is compelled, on the understanding that he is to get certain benefits. We have no guarantee for the future. A severe Chancellor of the Exchequer, under pressure from Income Tax payers, may refuse to come to the assistance of the Fund if there were a deficit, and the result would be that either the benefits would have to be reduced or actuarially the Fund would continue to be unsound.
§ Mr. BETTERTONIt may shorten the discussion if I intervene. I ought to have said that every year an account of the Fund, audited by the Comptroller and Auditor-General, is laid before Parliament and examined by the Public Accounts Committee. The Report which is referred to in the Bill as made every five years is merely a comprehensive review of these accounts.
§ Mr. HARRISThat rather justifies my case the more, for if the figures are available the cost of a triennial examination would be very small, and Parliament and the insured person would be aware of the actual position of the fund.
§ Mr. WHEATLEYIt is not a Report but an investigation that we are dealing with now.
§ Mr. HARRISAfter all this is purely a business proposition. In the words of the Clause the Minister admits that five 1912 years is not necessarily the right period, because he puts into his own hands the power to shorten the period to any lesser time that he thinks fit. Is it not wiser and more practicable for Parliament itself to fix the period? Some hon. Members suggest one year. That may be right or wrong. I want to be reasonable and to get something done. I want the Minister to make a concession. He has not made a concession yet. Here is a slight business concession which will help the smooth passage of the Bill. I suggest to him that the way to get the Bill through is not to sit still and refuse to answer arguments or to make any concession. My hon. Friend who moved the Amendment pointed out how doubtful the actuary was about the financial position. We need not go to the Blanesburgh Report. Turn to the Appendix, on page 89, and again on page 90. The actuary points out that
At no time from 1912 onwards has the working of the current scheme of National Insurance against Unemployment provided any data with reference to which the general rate of unemployment for a long period, and in relation to a wide span of industry, can be estimated.On page 90 the actuary says:In regard to the qualifying number of contributions, I regret that I have been unable to find any statistics which would enable the relief to be derived from this provision to be authoritatively measured.In other words, with all his expert knowledge and his trained mind, until now he has not been able to find any satisfactory statistics of facts to enable him to come to a satisfactory conclusion. The whole scheme is still in the experimental stage. We are still groping in the dark. We are still taking in money, doubtful whether the scheme can be made watertight. Therefore we are bound, in the interests of sound finance and in the interests of the insured persons, to see that every three years the whole scheme is thoroughly investigated. [HON. MEMBERS: "Too long!"] We want to get something done. Here is half way between the two sides. The Labour party suggests one year and the Parliamentary Secretary suggests five years. Here we are, the middle party, suggesting three years. For the reasons I have given I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary ought to accept the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown).
§ Mr. J. HUDSONProbably all the fundamental issues raised by this Bill are to be discussed upon this Clause. Long before five years and long before three years, it will be perfectly clear that there are forces at work in this country—whatever be the nature of our optimism or our pessimism—which will drive us, stage by stage, into harder and harder economic conditions, and will add to the unemployment from which we are now suffering. I am not able to speak with any certainty as to how long the capitalist system will stand the mulish kicks which capitalists themselves are delivering against it.
§ The CHAIRMANThis is not a Debate on capitalism.
§ Mr. HUDSONWith great respect, I would point out that what is going to add to the amount of unemployment in the future is the main issue which we ought to be facing just now in deciding whether we are to have a five-year reexamination, a three-year re-examination or a one-year reexamination.
§ The CHAIRMANThis Debate was being conducted with the most edifying compliance with order, but the hon. Member now seems anxious to discuss the fundamental issues of the Bill. He may argue that there is a certain amount of uncertainty in the position, and, therefore, that the period should be shorter than five years. That would be perfectly in order, but he must not be a fundamentalist.
§ Mr. HUDSONI owe you, Sir, a debt of gratitude for keeping me in order, and I shall avoid too much fundamentalism. I proceed, with this passing reflection—that it is clear to us, at least it is clear to me, that there is going to be an increase of unemployment not merely in connection with the coal trade but in connection with other vital industries which have not up to the present suffered in the same degree as the heavier industries. I arrive at that fundamental judgment because the Government have made it clear during the last few days that they intend to do nothing to stem the forces which are driving us into new reactions, and into new disputes out of which ultimately will come added unemployment. I am certain that before 12 months have passed, not only in the coal trade but in 1914 the industries of my own district in the textile industry—
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member if he is not now playing the part of a fundamentalist has assumed that of a prophet.
§ Mr. HUDSONMay I suggest with great respect that there is no greater element of prophecy in these discussions than that which has been introduced by the Government themselves. The whole of this Bill is based upon prophecy regarding the number of people who are to be unemployed in the future, and unless one can suggest some counteracting prophecy one is in a great difficulty in arguing the actual merits of this Clause, or of any part of the Bill. If I have departed a little from fundamentalism in order to deal with the prophecies of the Government, I ask for a little latitude in expressing my own opinion and giving my own prophecy upon this issue. Before we have gone very far in the political developments of the next twelve months, the difficulties in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer will find himself will cause further raids upon this Insurance Fund just as we have seen such raids in the past. The hon. Member for Leitb (Mr. Brown) in giving an account of the total amounts that would be contributed in the next five years gave us details of the contributions from the workers, the employers, and the State. He was a prophet when he came to the details as to the State's contribution.
§ Mr. BROWNThe hon. Member has misunderstood me. I did not prophesy. I was quoting facts as to the five years from 1921 to 1926. They are to be found in the abstract.
§ Mr. HUDSONI had assumed that the hon. Member was basing on the experience of the last five years an estimate of what would happen in the next five years. At any rate, I am sure of this—that with the general financial difficulties into which the Chancellor of the Exchequer is flying, it is more than likely that we shall have further raids upon this Fund. To that extent, the difficulties of the Fund will be increased, and for that reason I am sure we ought to expedite the prophesies of investigation. I admit that according to the Clause as it stands, the Minister has the opportunity to make his investigations 1915 oftener than every five years, but I am not enough of an optimist to believe that with such difficulties as the Minister of Labour will encounter, he will be desirous of letting this House know too soon the facts which confront us in regard to this matter. I think the situation will be so bad within a comparatively short time that when the House gets to know it an end will be made of the political careers of the Minister and of the Government as a whole. It is more than likely that instead of taking the opportunity which the Clause affords to hold an investigation before five years elapse, they will endeavour as long as possible to throw a cloak over the evil results of this legislation, and we shall not get the facts which ought to be placed before us. Therefore, I support the Amendment.
Captain ARTHUR EVANSIt is very obvious that hon. Members who sit on the other side of the Committee are under the impression that all the Members who occupy these benches—[HON. MEMBERS: "They do not!"]—who have the right to occupy these benches—share the views on this Bill which were given to a surprised Committee by the hon. Member for Whitehaven (Mr. R. Hudson) last night. May I disabuse their minds at once. The group which the hon. Member represents—
§ Mr. MAXTONOn a point of Order. I regret to interfere with the hon. and gallant Member's speech, but is it in order to discuss anything on this Amendment, except the question of a five years' investigation or a three years' investigation?
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member has shown what I can only describe as an uncanny appreciation of what is in my own mind.
Captain EVANSIf I am forbidden by your Ruling to pursue that point, I hope that I may have an opportunity of dealing with it on Clause 5. For the time being, I leave the hon. Gentleman who has just resumed his seat to derive what satisfaction he may from the gloomy picture which he drew of our industrial future. He told the Committee that in his opinion and in that of his colleagues the industrial situation of this country was not going to improve but was going 1916 to get worse. The purpose of the Amendment is to compel the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour—or any Minister of Labour—to investigate the financial standing of the fund at an interval of three years. No doubt the hon. Gentleman who moved it told the Committee that by his Amendment he would deprive my right hon. Friend of investigating the state of this fund 12 months hence if he thought the position necessitated that further investigation. He may not so have informed the Committee, but, if the Committee accepts the Amendment, that will be the position. The question we have to bear in mind is not whether it is desirable to shift the burden of life from the shoulders of the individual to the shoulders of the State, but whether we can afford to indulge in a luxury of that kind—
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member must remember that the only question here is whether the investigation is to be in five years at the discretion of the Minister or in three years.
§ Mr. MAXTONSurely, it is in order for the hon. and gallant Member to use the arguments which he has been using to illustrate the difficulties as between a three years' and a five years' investigation. While I object to his wandering back to Clauses discussed yesterday, I would certainly object if you were to restrain the hon. and gallant Member from using legitimate arguments.
§ The CHAIRMANI am afraid that I can only repeat a saying which I myself invented: Exemplum ne transeat in argumentum.
Captain EVANSI hope my hon. Friend who rushed so gallantly to my rescue appreciated the wit of your very excellent Ruling. The point that I am endeavouring to make is that, whether the industrial future of this country be certain or uncertain, it is not desirable at this stage to tie the Minister's discretion in this matter. If the hon. Member will read the Clause very carefully, he will observe that the Minister will at least once in every five years investigate the position of the fund. If we leave the Clause as it stands in the Bill at present, any unforeseen contingency or unrest can be dealt with by the Minister, to whatever party he belongs, but, if the Amendment be carried, the Minister, 1917 whatever his party, will be unable to investigate the situation for three years. I trust therefore that the Committee will not accept this Amendment.
§ Mr. STEPHENI desire to support the Amendment, and I would like the Committee to bear in mind the history of the fund. Through the whole of its history there has been juggling with it unequalled in the history of any other fund. In 1920, when the principal Act of the present Unemployment Insurance scheme was passed, there was a big surplus to the credit of the insured people, amounting to some £22,000,000. Now we are faced with a deficit of about £22,000,000. Millions of people were given a share in 1920 of the funds contributed by other people. That was the appropriation of what was the property of those who contributed under the scheme. In 1926, we had the fund coming to a position of solvency and in 1926 the House of Commons passed the Economy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act which placed the fund in the position in which it is to-day. If we had in connection with unemployment insurance a proper financial investigation at a certain period, there would not be the same disposition to play fast and loose with the contributions of the workers, the employers, and the State which has characterised the fund hitherto. There was a reduction in the State contribution from 8d. to 6d. just after arrangements had been made at the end of 1925 that the State was to bear a certain proportion. Next year there was a complete overturn of what had been suggested by the Minister at the end of the previous year. It would tend to give a certain amount of stability to the arrangements if this Amendment were passed.
The Minister has stated that, acting upon the Blanesburgh Report, he is intending that this scheme shall be a permanent scheme of unemployment insurance. Therefore, there is all the more reason why we should have an examination at the very beginning to see how the scheme is working out. There has been, throughout the history of the scheme, an idea that this is another form of outdoor relief. I think the hon. Member for Thanet (Mr. Harmsworth) would take that point of view, and perhaps he would see the importance of there being this periodical investigation and a shorter term of years than is proposed 1918 by the Minister. The Parliamentary Secretary has said that there is no need for it in three years, but that if the Minister thought fit he could have an annual investigation or one in two years, but the Minister may be the very last person who would like to have an investigation. The various Ministers who have held this office have been in very unfortunate circumstances so often, in connection with insurance, that the Minister may be the last person who would like to have an investigation, and, therefore, I think it would be to the advantage of everybody that there should be an examination in a shorter period. If this is going to be a permanent scheme, it has to justify itself, and the House of Commons should be able to keep in close touch with the working of it and should be given the opportunity of having, in the period of three years, a definite knowledge of the position of the Fund. I think everyone would be inclined to agree with that. I am quite sure that if hon. Members opposite had not decided that for them there must be, in this connection, the strong policy of silence, so that we shall have a silent Tory party just as we have a silent Prime Minister, there would be many voices in support of our Amendment.
In connection with unemployment insurance, I have always found, in dealing with people who have come to me with complaints, that there has been a general feeling that the State, as the smallest partner in the concern, putting up the least money in the business, yet has the biggest say in it, and there is a feeling that there should be more opportunity for the workmen and employers to have some say. If we had a triennial instead of a quinquennial investigation, the bigger paying partners in the concern, the employers and the workmen, would have something more adequate than they have now. I am sorry that the Amendment suggesting that the period should be one year was not taken. If the Minister were going to make it a shorter period, and if we had a thorough-going investigation, it would give us an opportunity in this House to see how we were dealing with the provision for the people, and it would enable us to get many very useful figures. One thing has already emerged from these discussions, and that is that the Minister of Labour has been impelled to publish a White Paper in 1919 order to give more information to the Committee. All through, there has been the constant complaint of the inadequacy of the information before us. It has been said that the Minister cannot give us figures about this and about that, and that nobody knows, and so on. Perhaps that is due to the fact that there has not been any sort of arrangement for a thorough-going periodical investigation in connection with the scheme.
To my mind, the only argument that could be put forward against the Amendment would be this, that at the present time matters are so uncertain in connection with unemployment, that it is so difficult to gauge what the volume of unemployment will be six or 12 months hence, when the provisions of the scheme come fully into operation; in other words, that the time is so abnormal. There has been the opinion expressed in the Committee that it is not abnormal, but that we are really on a peak of prosperity under the new conditions under
§ which Capitalism has had to work since the close of the War. That may be true, but most people regard it as an abnormal period of unemployment, from the point of view that there is such an appalling number of people still unemployed. The only argument that can be brought forward against the Amendment is that things are still so uncertain that we should take a period of five years, and possibly in the fourth year things may have got into the happy condition when it will be possible to get an investigation from which a very hopeful result may be obtained; and then in the fifth year you might be back in a period such as you are in at the present time. If you had the triennial period—
§ Mr. BETTERTONrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
§ Question put, "That the Question be now put."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 240: Noes, 143.
1923| Division No. 373.] | AYES. | [9.57 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Chapman, Sir S. | Fraser, Captain Ian |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Ganzoni, Sir John |
| Albery, Irving James | Christie. J. A. | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W.Derby) | Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Goff, Sir Park |
| Apsley, Lord | Clarry, Reginald George | Grace, John |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Clayton, G. C. | Grant, Sir J. A. |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Cobb, Sir Cyril | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. |
| Atkinson, C. | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Gunston, Captain D. W. |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Conway, Sir W. Martin | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. |
| Banks, Reginald Mitchell | Cooper, A. Duff | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Cope, Major William | Hall, Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Couper, J. B. | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Courtauld, Major J. S. | Hammersley, S. S. |
| Bennett, A. J. | Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry |
| Berry, Sir George | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Harland, A. |
| Bethel, A. | Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Dalkeith, Earl of | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Haslam, Henry C. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil) | Hawke, John Anthony |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Dawson, Sir Philip | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L.(Bootle) |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Dixey, A. C. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Drewe, C. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Hilton, Cecil |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Hopkins, J. W. W. |
| Brown,Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Ellis, R. G. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | England, Colonel A. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Hudson, R.S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Hume, Sir G. H. |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Everard, W. Lindsay | Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis |
| Campbell, E. T. | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Hurst, Gerald B. |
| Cassels, J. D. | Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M |
| Cautley. Sir Henry S. | Finburgh, S. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Jephcott, A. R. |
| Cayzer,Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Forrest, W. | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Foster, Sir Harry S. | Kindersley, Major G. M. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas |
| Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Lamb, J. Q. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Loder, J. de V. | Pennefather, Sir John | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Looker, Herbert William | Penny, Frederick George | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Styles, Captain H. Walter |
| Lumley, L. R. | Perring, Sir William George | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Lynn, Sir R. J. | Pilcher, G. | Sugden, sir Wilfrid |
| MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Power, Sir John Cecil | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Preston, William | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| MacIntyre, Ian | Price, Major C. W. M. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| McLean, Major A. | Radford, E. A. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Macmillan, Captain H. | Raine, Sir Walter | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | Rawson, Sir Cooper | Tinne, J. A. |
| MacRobert, Alexander M | Reid, D. D. (County Down) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) | Waddington, R. |
| Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Mason, Lieut.-Colonel Glyn K. | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) | Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Meller, R. J. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Merriman, F. B. | Salmon, Major I. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Meyer, Sir Frank | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | Wells, S. R. |
| Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Sandeman, N. Stewart | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Sanderson, Sir Frank | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Savery, S. S. | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Murchison, Sir Kenneth | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) | Wood. B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Nelson, Sir Frank | Shepperson, E. W. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Sinclair, Col. T.(Queen's Univ., Belfast) | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine,C.) | |
| Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Smithers, Waldron | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Nuttall, Ellis | Spender-Clay. Colonel H. | Captain Margesson and Major Sir |
| Oakley, T. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. | Harry Barnston. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Palin, John Henry |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff. Cannock) | Groves, T. | Paling, W. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield. Hillsbro') | Grundy, T. W. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Ponsonby, Arthur |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Potts, John S. |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Hardie, George D. | Riley. Ben |
| Baker, Walter | Harney, E. A. | Ritson, J. |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Harris, Percy A. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F.O.(W.Bromwich) |
| Barnes, A. | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks,W.R.,Elland) |
| Batey, Joseph | Hayday, Arthur | Rose, Frank H |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Hayes, John Henry | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Scurr, John |
| Broad, F. A. | Hirst, G. H. | Sexton, James |
| Bromfield, William | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Bromley, J. | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Buchanan, G. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Cape, Thomas | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Charleton, H. C. | Jones. Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) |
| Clowes, S. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Kelly, W. T. | Snell, Harry |
| Compton, Joseph | Kennedy, T. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Connolly, M. | Kirkwood, D. | Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles |
| Cove, W. G. | Lansbury, George | Stamford, T. W. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lawrence, Susan | Stephen, Campbell |
| Dalton, Hugh | Lawson, John James | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Lee. F. | Strauss, E. A. |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Lindley, F. W. | Sullivan, J. |
| Dennison, R. | Lowth, T. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Duncan, C | Lunn, William | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.) |
| Dunnico, H. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Edge, Sir William | Mackinder, W. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Gardner, J. P. | March, S. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Maxton, James | Townend, A. E. |
| Gillett, George M. | Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) | Varley, Frank B. |
| Gosling, Harry | Montague, Frederick | Viant, S. P. |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Morris, R. H. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent. | Murnin, H. | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Greenall, T. | Naylor, T. E. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Oliver, George Harold | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah | Wiggins, William Martin | Windsor, Walter |
| Wellock, Wilfred | Wilkinson, Ellen C. | Wright, W. |
| Welsh, J. C. | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) | |
| Westwood, J. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) | Mr. Fenby and Major Owen. |
| Whiteley, W. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
§ Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
1924§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 233; Noes, 150.
1925| Division No. 374.] | AYES. | [10.5 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn |
| Albery, Irving James | Everard, W. Lindsay | Margesson, Captain D. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. |
| Apsley, Lord | Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Meller, R. J. |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Finburgh, S. | Merriman, F. B. |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Forestler-Walker, Sir L. | Meyer, Sir Frank |
| Atkinson, C. | Foster, Sir Harry S. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Fraser, Captain Ian | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Banks, Reginald Mitchell | Ganzoni, Sir John | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Gibbs. Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Goff, Sir Park | Murchison, Sir Kenneth |
| Bennett, A. J. | Grace, John | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph |
| Berry, Sir George | Grant, Sir J. A. | Nelson, Sir Frank |
| Bethel, A. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Neville, Sir Reginald J. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Oakley, T. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Hall, Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Hall, capt. w. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Hammersley, S. S. | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Pennefather, Sir John |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Harland, A. | Penny, Frederick George |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Perring, Sir William George |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Haslam, Henry C. | Pilcher, G. |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Hawke, John Anthony | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Preston, William |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Henderson,Capt.R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) | Radford, E. A. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Cassels, J. D. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Hilton, Cecil | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Remer, J. R. |
| Cayzer, MaJ. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.) | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Christie, J. A. | Hume, Sir G. H. | Salmon, Major I. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Hurst, Gerald B. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Clayton, G. C. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Jephcott, A. R. | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Savery, S. S. |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Kindersley, Major Guy M. | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Couper, J. B. | Lamb, J. Q. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Sinclair, Col.T.(Queen's Univ.,Belfst.) |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Loder, J. de V. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine,C.) |
| Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) | Looker, Herbert William | Smithers, Waldron |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G.F. |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir John H | Lumley, L. R. | Stanley Lord (Fylde) |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | MacIntyre, Ian | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Dixey, A. C. | McLean, Major A. | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Drewe, C. | Macmillan, Captain H. | Styles, Captain H. Walter |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Ellis, R. G. | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- | Warrender, Sir Victor | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Tinne, J. A. | Wells, S. R. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Titchfield, Major the Marquess of | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) | |
| Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Waddington, R. | Winby, Colonel L. P. | Major Sir Harry Barnston and Major Cope. |
| Wallace, Captain D. E. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George | |
| Ward, Lt.-Col.A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) | Wolmer, Viscount | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Hardie, George D, | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Harney, E. A. | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Harris, Percy A. | Scurr, John |
| Ammon, Charles George | Hartshorn, Rt, Hon. Vernon | Sexton, James |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hayday, Arthur | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) | Hayes, John Henry | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Baker, Walter | Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Barnes, A. | Hirst, G. H. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Batey, Joseph | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Snell, Harry |
| Broad, F. A. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Bromfield, William | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Spoor, Rt. Hon Benjamin Charles |
| Bromley, J. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Stamford, T. W. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Kelly, W. T. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Buchanan, G. | Kennedy, T. | Strauss, E. A. |
| Cape, Thomas | Kirkwood, D. | Sullivan, J. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Lansbury, George | Sutton, J. E. |
| Clowes, S. | Lawrence, Susan | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lawson, John James | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Compton, Joseph | Lee, F. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Connolly, M. | Lindley, F. W. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Cove, W. G. | Lowth, T. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lunn, William | Townend, A. E. |
| Dalton, Hugh | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Varley, Frank B. |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Mackinder, W. | Viant, S. P. |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Dennison, R. | March, S. | Walsh. Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Duncan, C. | Maxton, James | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Dunnico, H. | Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Edge, Sir William | Montague, Frederick | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Morris, R. H. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Murnin, H. | Welsh, J. C. |
| England, Colonel A. | Naylor, T. E. | Westwood, J. |
| Forrest, W. | Oliver, George Harold | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Gardner, J. P. | Palin, John Henry | Whiteley, W. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Paling, W. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Gillett, George M. | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Gosling, Harry | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Williams, David (Swansea, E) |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Graham. Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Potts, John S. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Greenall, T. | Riley, Ben | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Ritson, J. | Windsor, Walter |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W.Bromwich) | Wright, W. |
| Groves, T. | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) | |
| Grundy, T. W. | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks,W.R.,Elland) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Rose, Frank H. | Mr. Fenby and Major Owen. |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Saklatvala, Shapurji |
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question, 'That the Clause stand part of the Bill,' be now put."
§ Question put, "That the Question, 'That the Clause stand part of the Bill,' be now put."
§ The Committee proceeded to a Division.
§ Mr. MAXTON(seated and covered): On a point of Order. Do I understand that the Amendments in manuscript, 1926 which have been handed in, are not to be afforded an opportunity for debate?
§ The CHAIRMANYes.
§ Mr. MAXTONDo I understand that there is to be no Debate on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill"?
§ The CHAIRMANYes:
§ Mr. MAXTONWell, I think it is damned unfair.
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 238; Noes, 145.
1929| Division No. 375.] | AYES. | [10.15 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Forrest, W. | Nelson, Sir Frank |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Foster, Sir Harry S. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) |
| Albery, Irving James | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Fraser, Captain Ian | Nicholson, Col.Rt.Hn.W.G. (Ptrsf'ld.) |
| Allan, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E. | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Apsley, Lord | Ganzoni, Sir John | Oakley, T. |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent,Dover) | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Atkinson, C. | Goff, Sir Park | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Grace, John | Pennefather, Sir John |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Grant, Sir J. A. | Penny, Frederick George |
| Banks, Reginald Mitchell | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Perring, Sir William George |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Pilcher, G. |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Bennett, A. J. | Hall, Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) | Preston, William |
| Berry, Sir George | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Bethel, A. | Hammersley, S. S. | Radford, E. A. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Harland, A. | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Remer, J. R. |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Haslam, Henry C. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Hawke, John Anthony | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hen. William Clive | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Robinson, Sir T. (Lanc, Stretford) |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Henderson,Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) | Salmon, Major I. |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Hilton, Cecil | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Savery, S. S. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Cassels, J. D. | Hudson, R.S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Cautley, Sir Henry s. | Hume, Sir G. H. | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast) |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.) | Hurst, Gerald B. | Smithers, Waldron |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Jephcott, A. R | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland) |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston). | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Kindersley, Major Guy M. | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Churchman, sir Arthur C. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Clayton, G. C. | Lamb, J. Q. | Styles, Captain H. Walter |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Loder, J. de V. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Lucas-Tooth, sir Hugh Vere | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Luce, MaJ.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Couper, J. B. | Lumley, L. R. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Tinne, J. A. |
| Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) | MacIntyre, Ian | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | McLean, Major A. | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Macmillan, Captain H. | Waddington, R. |
| Davidson, Major-Genera] Sir J. H. | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Davies, Maj. Geo.F.(Somerset,Yeovil) | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Wells, S. R. |
| Dixey, A. C. | Margesson, Captain D. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Drewe, C. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Meller, R. J. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Ellis, R. G. | Merriman, F. B. | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| England, Colonel A. | Meyer, Sir Frank | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | |
| Finburgh, S. | Murchison, Sir Kenneth | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Forcstler-Walker, Sir L. | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Major Cope and Major The Marquess of Titchfield. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Harney, E. A. | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff, Cannock) | Harris, Percy A. | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Scurr, John |
| Ammon, Charles George | Hayday, Arthur | Sexton, James |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hayes, John Henry | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Baker, Walter | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Hirst, G. H. | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Barnes, A. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Batey, Joseph | Hore-Bellsha, Leslie | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Snell, Harry |
| Broad, F. A. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Bromfield, William | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles |
| Bromley, J. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | stamford, T. W. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Kelly, W. T. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Kennedy, T. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Buchanan, G. | Kirkwood, D. | Strauss, E. A. |
| Cape, Thomas | Lansbury, George | Sullivan, J. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Lawrence, Susan | Sutton, J. E. |
| Clowes, S. | Lawson, John James | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lee, F. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Compton, Joseph | Lindley, F. W. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Connolly, M. | Lowth, T. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Cove, W. G. | Lunn, William | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Townend, A. E. |
| Dalton, Hugh | Mackinder, W. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Vlant, S. P. |
| Day, Colonel Harry | March, S. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Dennison, R. | Maxton, James | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Duncan, C. | Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Dunnico, H. | Montague, Frederick | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Edge, Sir William | Morris, R. H. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Fenby, T. D. | Murnin, H. | Welsh, J. C. |
| Gardner, J. P. | Naylor, T. E. | Westwood, J. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Oliver, George Harold | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Gillett, George M. | Owen, Major G. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Gosling, Harry | Palin, John Henry | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Paling, W. | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Greenall, T. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Grentell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Potts, John S. | Windsor, Walter |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Riley, Ben | Wright, W. |
| Groves, T. | Ritson, J. | |
| Grundy, T. W. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W.Bromwich) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Robinson, w. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) | Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Charles Edwards. |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Rose, Frank H | |
| Hardie, George D. | Saklatvala, Shapurji |
§ Question put accordingly, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
1930§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 245; Noes, 150.
1933| Division No. 376.] | AYES. | [10.22 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Briggs, J. Harold | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Briscoe, Richard George | Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips |
| Albery, Irving James | Brittain, Sir Harry | Cooper, A. Duff |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Cope, Major William |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W.Derby) | Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Couper, J. B. |
| Apsley, Lord | Brown. Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks,Newb'y) | Courtauld, Major J. S. |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Buckingham, Sir H. | Crookshank, Ccl. C. de W. (Berwick) |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J.(Kent,Dover) | Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) |
| Atkinson, C. | Burton, Colonel H. W. | Cunliffe, Sir Herbert |
| Baldwin. Rt. Hon. Stanley | Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Curzon, Captain Viscount |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Campbell, E. T. | Dalkeith, Earl of |
| Balniel, Lord | Carver, Major W. H. | Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. |
| Banks, Reginald Mitchell | Cassels, J. D. | Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Dawson, Sir Philip |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Cayzer,Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Dean, Arthur Wellesley |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Dixey, A. C. |
| Bennett, A. J. | Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Drewe, C. |
| Berry, Sir George | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Edmondson, Major A. J. |
| Bethel, A. | Chapman, Sir S. | Elliot, Major Walter E. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Ellis, R. G. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Christie, J. A. | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Everard, W. Lindsay |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Clarry, Reginald George | Fairfax, Captain J. G. |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Clayton, G. C | Falle, Sir Bertram G. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Cobb, Sir Cyril | Fanshawe, Captain G. D. |
| Finburgh, S. | Loder, J. de V. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Forestler-Walker, Sir L. | Looker, Herbert William | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Salmon, Major I. |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Lumley, L. R. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Gates, Percy | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | MacIntyre, Ian | Savery, S. S. |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | McLean, Major A. | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie |
| Goff, Sir Park | Macmillan, Captain H. | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) |
| Grace, John | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Grant, Sir J. A. | Mac Robert, Alexander M. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst) |
| Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Smithers, Waldron |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Margesson, Captain D. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Mason, Lieut.-Col- Glyn K. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Hall, Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) | Meller, R. J. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland) |
| Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Merriman, F. B. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Meyer, Sir Frank | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Harland, A. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Harmsworth. Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Styles, Captain H. Walter |
| Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Haslam, Henry C. | Morrison H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Hawke, John Anthony | Murchison, Sir Kenneth | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) | Nelson, Sir Frank | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Tinne, J. A. |
| Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Hilton, Cecil | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Nicholson,Col.Rt.Hon.W.G. (Ptrsf'ld.) | Waddington, R. |
| Hopkins, J. W. W. | Nuttall, Ellis | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Oakley, T. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford. Luton) | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Wells, S. R. |
| Hume, Sir G. H. | Pennefather, Sir John | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Hurst, Gerald B. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Illfle, Sir Edward M. | Perring, Sir William George | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Pilcher, G. | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Power, Sir John Cecil | Windsor-Clive, Lieut. Colonel George |
| Jephcott, A. R. | Preston, William | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Price, Major C. W. M. | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Radford, E. A. | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Kindersley, Major G. M. | Raine, Sir Walter | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Rawson, Sir Cooper | Young, Rt. Hon.Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Reld, D. D. (County Down) | |
| Lamb, J. Q. | Remer, J. R. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Mr. Penny and Major The Marquess of Titchfield. |
| Little, Dr. E. Graham | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Dalton, Hugh | Harney, E. A. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Harris, Percy A. |
| Alexander. A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Day, Colonel Harry | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon |
| Ammon, Charles George | Dennison, R. | Hayday, Arthur |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Duncan, C. | Hayes, John Henry |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Dunnlco, H. | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) |
| Baker, Walter | Edge, Sir William | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Edwards, John H. (Accrington) | Hirst, G. H. |
| Barnes, A. | England, Colonel A. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) |
| Batey, Joseph | Fenby, T. D. | Hore-Bellsha, Leslie |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Forrest, W. | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Gardner, J. P. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | John, William (Rhondda. West) |
| Broad, F. A. | Glbbins, Joseph | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) |
| Bromfield, William | Gillett, George M. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Bromley, J. | Gosling, Harry | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Kelly, W. T. |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Kennedy, T. |
| Buchanan, G. | Greenall, T. | Kirkwood, D. |
| Cape, Thomas | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Lansbury, George |
| Charleton, H. C. | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Lawrence, Susan |
| Clowes, S. | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Lawson, John James |
| Cluse, W. S. | Groves, T. | Lee, F. |
| Compton, Joseph | Grundy, T. W. | Lindley, F. W. |
| Connolly, M. | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Lowth, T. |
| Cove, W. G. | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Lunn, William |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Hardie, George D. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) |
| Mackinder, W. | Salter, Dr. Alfred | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Scrymgeour, E. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| March, S. | Scurr, John | Townend, A. E. |
| Maxton, James | Sexton, James | Varley, Frank B. |
| Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) | Viant, S. P. |
| Montague, Frederick | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Morris, R. H. | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Murnin, H. | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermllne) |
| Naylor, T. E. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Oliver, George Harold | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Owen, Major G. | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Kelghley) | Welsh, J. c. |
| Palin, John Henry | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) | Westwood, J. |
| Paling, W. | Snell, Harry | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Ponsonby, Arthur | Stamford, T. W. | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) |
| Potts, John S. | Stephen, Campbell | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Riley, Ben | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Ritson, J. | Strauss, E. A. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W.Bromwich) | Sullivan, J. | Windsor, Walter |
| Robinson, Sir T. (Lanc, Stretford) | Sutton, J. E. | Wright, W. |
| Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.) | |
| Rose, Frank H. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Saklatvala, Shapurji | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Whiteley. |
§ The CHAIRMANWhen the last Division but one was called the hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division of Glasgow (Mr. Maxton) made use of the expression that my conduct in the Chair was "damned unfair." I must ask him to withdraw that expression.
§ Mr. HARDIEOn a point of Order. May I ask a question dealing with a point of order—
§ The CHAIRMANI must await the answer of the hon. Member for Bridgeton first.
§ Mr. HARDIEIt is in relation to that that I want to put a question to you now. [Interruption.]
§ Mr. BUCHANANrose—
§ The CHAIRMANI ask the hon. Member for Bridgeton for the second time to withdraw his expression.
§ Mr. MAXTONIn the course of the proceedings, at the conclusion of the Debate on the last Amendment I asked you a perfectly legitimate Parliamentary question. You answered me in a manner that was both offensive to myself and degrading to the dignity of this House. That is where the matter stands so far as I am concerned.
§ The CHAIRMANI call upon the hon. Member for the third time to withdraw his expression. [Interruption.]
§ The hon. Member again declined to withdraw the expression, whereupon the CHAIRMAN ordered him to withdraw from the House during the remainder of this 1934 day's sitting, but the hon. Member refused to withdraw.
§ Whereupon the CHAIRMAN named him for disregarding the authority of the Chair, and left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
§ Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair.
§ The CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS (Mr. James Hope)I have to report that the hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division of Glasgow (Mr. Maxton) has been named by me for persistently disregarding the authority of the Chair.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI have to name Mr. James Maxton for persistently disregarding the authority of the Chair.
§ Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALDrose—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SPEAKERThere is no Question that can be debated.
§ The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin)I beg to move, "That Mr. Maxton, the Member for the Bridgeton Division of Glasgow, be suspended from the service of the House."
§ Mr. MacDONALDOn a point of Order. Is it impossible for you, Mr. Speaker, to be put in possession of what really took place when the incident happened?
§ Mr. SPEAKERUnder the Standing Order, it is quite clear that I am bound to put the Question without Amendment or Debate.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided: Ayes, 262; Noes, 131.
1937| Division No. 377.] | AYES. | [10.38 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Everard, W. Lindsay | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Margesson, Captain D. |
| Albery, Irving James | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Fielden, E. B. | Meller, R. J. |
| Apsley, Lord | Finburgh, S. | Merriman, F. B. |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Meyer, Sir Frank |
| Astor, Maj. Hon. John J.(Kent,Dover) | Forrest, W. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) |
| Atkinson, C. | Foster, Sir Harry S. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Fraser, Captain Ian | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) |
| Balniel, Lord | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. |
| Banks, Reginald Mitchell | Ganzoni, Sir John | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Gates, Percy | Murchison, Sir Kenneth |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Nelson, Sir Frank |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Goff Sir Park | Neville, Sir Reginald J. |
| Bennett, A. J. | Grace, John | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Berry, Sir George | Grant, Sir J. A. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) |
| Bethel, A. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Oakley, T. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Hall, Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Owen, Major G. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Hammersley, S. S. | Pennefather, Sir John |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Penny, Frederick George |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Harland, A. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hartington. Marquess of | Perring, Sir William George |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Pilcher, G. |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Haslam, Henry C. | Preston, William |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Hawke, John Anthony | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Radford, E. A. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Cassels, J. D. | Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Reid, D. D (County Down) |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Remer, J. R. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Hilton, Cecil | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Salmon, Major I. |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Christie. J. A. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon, Winston Spencer | Hume, Sir G. H. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Churchman. Sir Arthur C. | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Hurst, Gerald B. | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Clayton, G. C. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Savery, S. S. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Inskip. Sir Thomas Walker H. | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Jephcott, A. R | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Sinclair. Col. T. (Queen's Unlv.,Belf'st.) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Couper, J B. | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Smithers, Waldron |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G.F. |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Lamb, J. Q. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Cunliffe Sir Herbert | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Little, Dr. E. Graham | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. | Loder, J. de V. | Strauss, E. A. |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil) | Looker, Herbert William | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Davison. Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Lucas-Tooth. Sir Hugh Vere | Styles, Captain H. Walter |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Lumley, L. R. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Dixey, A. C. | Lynn, Sir Robert J. | Tasker, R Inigo. |
| Drewe, C. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Edge, Sir William | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | MacIntyre, Ian | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.) |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | McLean, Major A. | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Ellis, R. G. | Macmillan, Captain H. | Tinne, J. A. |
| England, Colonel A. | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Waddington, R. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Warrender, Sir Victor | Winby, Colonel L. P. | |
| Wells, S. R. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Wiggins, William Martin | Wolmer, Viscount | Major Cope and Major The Marquess of Titchfield. |
| Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) | |
| Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) | Woodcock, Colonel. H. C. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Hardie, George D. | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff. Cannock) | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Scurr, John |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hayday, Arthur | Sexton, James |
| Ammon, Charles George | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Hirst, G. H. | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Baker, Walter | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhiths) |
| Batey, Joseph | Hudson. J. H. (Huddersfield) | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Bondfield, Margaret | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Snell, Harry |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Broad, F. A. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charies |
| Bromfield, William | Kelly, W. T. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Bromley, J. | Kennedy, T. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Kirkwood, D. | Sullivan, J. |
| Buchanan, G. | Lansbury, George | Sutton, J. E. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Lawrence, Susan | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Clowes, S. | Lawson, John James | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lee, F. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Compton, Joseph | Lindley, F. W. | Townend, A. E. |
| Connolly, M. | Lowth, T. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Cove, W. G | Lunn, William | Varley, Frank B. |
| Dalton, Hugh | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) | Viant, S. P. |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Mackinder, W. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Dennison, R. | March, S. | Watson, w. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Duncan, C. | Mitchell, E. Rossiyn (Paisley) | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Dunnico, H. | Montague, Frederick | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Murnin, H. | Welsh, J. C. |
| Gardner, J. P. | Naylor, T. E. | Westwood, J. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Oliver, George Harold | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Gillett, George M. | Palin, John Henry | Whiteley, W. |
| Gosling, Harry | Paling, W. | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) |
| Greenall, T. | Ponsonby, Arthur | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Potts, John S. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Riley, Ben | Windsor, Walter |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Ritson, J. | Wright, W. |
| Groves, T. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W.Bromwich) | |
| Grundy, T. W. | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks,W.R., Elland) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Saklatvala, Shapurji | Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. Hayes. |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
§ Mr. SPEAKERIn accordance with the decision of the House, I must ask the hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division to withdraw.
§ The hon. Member withdrew accordingly.
§ Bill again considered in Committee.
§ [Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]
§ Mr. T. SHAWI beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
I move this Motion on the ground that the indignation on this side of the House is such as to prevent any reasonable discussion—indignation which I venture to say, is shared by every one of us who 1938 saw the incident and heard what took place. [Interruption.] Hon. Members who neither saw the incident nor heard what took place can form no idea. I saw the incident, and consequently I move that the Chairman do report Progress on the ground that it is absolutely impossible, in view of the rulings that have been given, for reasonable discussion to take place.
§ Mr. BUCHANANI want to support the Motion. There is no doubt that the Ruling you gave was both contemptible and unmanly.
§ The CHAIRMANI must call upon the hon. Member to withdraw that observation. [Interruption.]
§ The CHAIRMAN called the attention of the Committee to the disorderly conduct of Mr. Buchanan, Member for the Gorbals Division of Glasgow, and ordered him to withdraw immediately from the House during the remainder of this day's sitting.
§ The hon. Member refused to withdraw; and the Chairman directed the Sergeant-at-Arms to request the hon. Member to withdraw, but the hon. Member again refused to withdraw, whereupon the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
§ Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair.
1940§ The CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANSI have to inform you, Mr. Speaker, that under Standing Order, No. 20, I have to report the hon. Member for the Gorbals Division of Glasgow for disregarding the authority of the Chair.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI have to name Mr. Buchanan for disregarding the authority of the Chair.
§ The PRIME MINISTERI beg to move, "That Mr. Buchanan, the Member for the Gorbals Division of Glasgow, be suspended from the service of the House."
§ Question put.
§ The House divided: Ayes, 274; Noes, 106.
1941| Division No. 378.] | AYES. | [10.54 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Hammersley, S. S. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry |
| Albery, Irving James | Conway, Sir W. Martin | Harland, A. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Cooper, A. Duff | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W.Derby) | Cope, Major William | Hartington, Marquess of |
| Apsley, Lord | Couper, J. B. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Courtauld, Major J. S. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Haslam, Henry C. |
| Atkinson, C. | Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Hawke, John Anthony |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) | Henderson, Capt. R.R. (Oxt'd,Henley) |
| Balniel, Lord | Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) |
| Banks, Reginald Mitchell | Dalkeith, Earl of | Heneage, Lieut-Colonel Arthur P. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Davies, Maj. Geo.F.(Somerset,Yeovil) | Hilton, Cecil |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. p. H. | Dawson, Sir Philip | Holt, Captain H. P. |
| Bennett, A. J. | Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Hopkins, J. W. W |
| Barry, Sir George | Dixey, A. C. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) |
| Bethel, A. | Drewe, C. | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. |
| Betterton, Henry B | Edge, Sir William | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Hudson, Capt. A. U.M. (Hackney,N.) |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Ellis, R. G. | Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | England, Colonel A. | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Hurst, Gerald B. |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Everard. W. Lindsay | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Jephcott, A. R. |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) |
| Brockiebank, C. E. R. | Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Fielden, E. B. | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Finburgh, S. | Kindersley, Major G. M. |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Forrest, W. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Foster, Sir Harry S. | Lamb, J. Q |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Fraser, Captain Ian | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip |
| Cassels. J. D. | Ganzoni, Sir John | Little, Dr. E. Graham |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Gates, Percy. | Locker-Lampson, Com.O. (Handsw'th) |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Loder, J. de V. |
| Cayzer,Maj.sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Long, Major Eric |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Goff, Sir Park | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere |
| Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Grace, John | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Grant, Sir J. A. | Lumley, L. R. |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Lynn, Sir R. J. |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen |
| Christie, J. A. | Guest, Capt.Rt.Hon. F. E. (Bristol,N.) | Macdonald, R, (Glasgow, Cathcart) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | MacIntyre, Ian |
| Churchman, sir Arthur C. | Gunston, Captain D. W. | McLean, Major A. |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Macmillan, Captain H. |
| Clayton, G. C. | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Hail, Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) | MacRobert, Alexander M |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- |
| Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Power, Sir John Cecil | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Preston, William | Strauss, E. A. |
| Margesson, Captain D. | Price, Major C. W. M. | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Radford, E. A. | Styles, Captain H. Walter |
| Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Ralne, Sir Walter | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Meller, R. J. | Rawson, Sir Cooper | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Merriman, F. B. | Reid, D. D. (County Down) | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Meyer, Sir Frank | Remer, J. R. | Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford) | Tinne, J. A. |
| Moore, Sir Newton J. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Rye, F. G. | Turton, Edmund Russborough |
| Morris, R. H. | Salmon, Major I. | Waddington, R. |
| Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Murchison, Sir Kenneth | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Sandeman, N. Stewart | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Nelson, Sir Frank | Sanders, Sir Robert A. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Sanderson, Sir Frank | Wells, S. R. |
| Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Savery, S. S. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Nicholson, Col. Rt.Hn.W.G.(Ptrsf'ld.) | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Nuttall, Ellis | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Oakley, T. | Shepperson, E. W. | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| O'Connor T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Sinclair, Col. T.(Queen's,Unlv.,Belfast) | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Owen, Major G. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine.C.) | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Pennefather, Sir John | Smithers, Waldron | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Penny, Frederick George | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. | |
| Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Perring, Sir William George | Stanley, Hon. 0. F. G. (Westm'eland) | Captain Viscount Curzon and Major |
| Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Steel, Major Samuel Strang | The Marquess of Titchfield. |
| Pilcher, G. | Storry-Deans, R. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hayday, Arthur | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hayes, John Henry | Scurr, John |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Sexton, James |
| Baker, Walter | Hirst, G. H. | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Barnes, A. | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Batey, Joseph | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Snell, Harry |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Stamford, T. W. |
| Broad, F. A. | Kelly, W. T. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Bromfield, William | Kirkwood, D. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Bromley, J. | Lansbury, George | Sutton, J. E. |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Lawrence, Susan | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Charleton, H. C. | Lawson, John James | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Clowes, S. | Lee, F. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lindley, F. W. | Townend, A. E. |
| Compton, Joseph | Lowth, T. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Connolly, M. | Lunn, William | Vlant, S. P. |
| Cove, W. G. | Mackinder, W. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Day, Colonel Harry | March, S. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Dennison, R. | Montague, Frederick | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Duncan, C. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Welsh, J C. |
| Edwards. C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Murnin, H. | Westwood, J. |
| Gardner, J. P. | Naylor, T. E. | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Oliver, George Harold | Whiteley, W. |
| Gillett, George M. | Palin, John Henry | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Gosling, Harry | Paling, W. | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Parkinson. John Allen (Wigan) | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Greenall, T. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Potts, John S. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Riley, Ben | Windsor, Walter |
| Grundy, T. W. | Ritson, J. | Wright, W. |
| Hall, F. (York W.R.. Normanton) | Robinson, W.C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland | |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Saklatvala, Shapurji | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hardie, George D. | Salter, Dr. Alfred | Mr. Dunnico and Mr. Groves. |
§ Mr. SPEAKERIn accordance with the decision of the House, I must ask the hon. Member for the Gorbals Division to withdraw from the House.
§ The hon. Member withdrew accordingly.
1942§ Bill again considered in Committee.
§ [Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]
§ Question again proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
1943§ Question put.
1944§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 144; Noes, 257.
1945| Division No. 379.] | AYES. | [11.5 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Harney, E. A. | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Adamson, w. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Harris, Percy A. | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Scurr, John |
| Ammon, Charles George | Hayday, Arthur | Sexton, James |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Baker, Walter | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Hirst, G. H. | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Batey, Joseph | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) |
| Broad, F. A. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Bromfield, William | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Snell, Harry |
| Bromley, J. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Kelly, W. T. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kennedy, T. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Clowes, S. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Kirkwood, D. | Strauss, E. A |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Lansbury, George | Sullivan, J. |
| Compton, Joseph | Lawrence, Susan | Sutton, J. E. |
| Connolly, M. | Lawson, John James | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Cove, W. G. | Lee, F. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lindley, F. W. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Dalton, Hugh | Lowth, T. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Lunn, William | Townend, A. E. |
| Day, Colonel Harry | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) | Varley, Frank B. |
| Dennison, R. | Mackinder, W. | Vlant, S. P. |
| Duncan, C. | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Dunnico, H. | Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Edge, Sir William | Montague, Frederick | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Morris, R. H. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Fenby, T. D. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Gardner, J. P. | Murnin, H. | Welsh, J. C. |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Naylor, T. E. | Westwood, J. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Oliver, George Harold | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Glliett, George M. | Owen, Major G. | Whiteley, W. |
| Gosling, Harry | Palin, John Henry | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Paling, W. | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Greenall, T. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Potts, John S. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Riley, Ben | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Groves, T. | Ritson, J. | Windsor, Walter |
| Grundy, T. W. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W.Bromwich) | Wright, W. |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks,W.R.,Elland) | |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) | Rose, Frank H. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hardie, George D. | Saklatvala, Shapurji | Mr. B. Smith and Mr. A. Barnes. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Clayton, G. C. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Brassey, Sir Leonard | Cobb, Sir Cyril |
| Albery, Irving James | Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Briggs, J. Harold | Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Briscoe, Richard George | Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips |
| Apsley, Lord | Brittain, Sir Harry | Cooper, A. Duff |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Cope, Major William |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Couper, J. B. |
| Atkinson, C. | Buckingham, Sir H. | Courtauld, Major J. S. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Burton, Colonel H. W. | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) |
| Balniel, Lord | Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) |
| Banks, Reginald Mitchell | Campbell, E. T. | Cunliffe, Sir Herbert |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Carver, Major W. H. | Dalkeith, Earl of |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Cassels, J. D. | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil) |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt.R.(Prtsmth.S.) | Dawson, Sir Philip |
| Bennett, A. J. | Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Dean, Arthur Wellesley |
| Berry, Sir George | Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Dixey, A. C. |
| Bethel, A. | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Drewe, C. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Chapman, Sir S. | Edmondson, Major A. J. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R, Skipton) | Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Elliot, Major Walter E. |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Christie, J. A. | Ellis, R. G. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | England, Colonel A. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Clarry, Reginald George | Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford) |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Little, Dr. E. Graham | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) | Rye, F. G. |
| Fielden, E. B. | Loder, J. de V. | Salmon, Major I. |
| Finburgh, S. | Long, Major Eric | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Forrest, W. | Lumley, L. R. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Lynn, Sir Robert J. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Sandon Lord |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Macintyre, Ian | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | McLean, Major A. | Savery, S. S. |
| Gates, Percy | Macmillan, Captain H. | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie |
| Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) |
| Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel. | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Goff, Sir Park | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Grace, John | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ.,Belfst) |
| Grant, Sir J. A. | Margesson, Captain D. | Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Smithers, Waldron |
| Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Mason. Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Guest, Capt.Rt.Hon. F. E. (Bristol,N.) | Meller, R. J. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon.G.F. |
| Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Merriman, F. B. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Meyer, Sir Frank | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Hall, Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R, (Ayr) | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Harland, A. | Moore, Sir Newton J, | Styles, Captain H. Walter |
| Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Hartington, Marquess of | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Murchison, Sir Kenneth | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Haslam, Henry C. | Nelson, Sir Frank | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Hawke, John Anthony | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Tinne, J. A. |
| Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Nicholson, Col.Rt.Hn.W.G. (Ptrsf'ld.) | Waddington, R. |
| Hilton, Cecil | Nuttall, Ellis | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Oakley, T. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Holt, Capt. H. P. | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Hopkins, J. W. W. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Wells, S. R. |
| Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Pennefather, Sir John | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Penny, Frederick George | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney,N.> | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Hume, Sir G. H. | Perring, Sir William George | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| Hurst, Gerald B. | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Pilcher, G. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Power, Sir John Cecil | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Preston. William | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Jephcott, A. R. | Price, Major C. W. M. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Radford, E. A. | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Raine, Sir Walter | |
| Kindersley, Major Guy M. | Rawson, Sir Cooper | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Reid, D. D. (County Down) | Captain Viscount Curzon and Major |
| Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Remer, J. R. | The Marquess of Titchfield. |
| Lamb, J. Q. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
§ Mr. MACLEANI understand that during the time that an hon. Member was standing upon his feet you put the Question and asked the Committee to take a vote.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member was on his feet at the same time that Mr. Speaker was, and under the circumstances I thought it right to ignore him.
§ Mr. MACLEANMay I draw attention to the fact that when he rose to his feet you were seated, and if you had risen you ought to have stated the ground upon which he—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] May I put it to you, Sir—[HON. 1946 MEMBERS: "Order!"] I am stating my point of Order. If you are going to conduct the business of this House in the way that this House has had its business conducted according to its tradition—[Interruption.]
§ The CHAIRMANrose—
§ Mr. MACLEANMay I be allowed to finish my point of Order?
§ The CHAIRMANRising to question the ruling or the discretion of the Chair is not rising to a point of Order. If the hon. Member has a point of Order to raise, I will hear it.
§ Mr. WALLHEADI have one to raise. You stated just now in your answer to the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. Maclean,) that you refused to allow me to speak because I was standing at the same time that Mr. Speaker was in the Chair. If Mr. Speaker was in the Chair you had no authority in this House at the same time. Mr. Speaker was in charge and not you, and your Ruling over this matter is as damned contemptible as your Ruling has been all the night. I agree with the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) that your Ruling is contemptible and unfair, and it has been a damned disgrace to the Chair.
§ The CHAIRMANDo I understand that the hon. Member persists in those expressions?
§ Mr. WALLHEADYes, I do.
§ The CHAIRMANI call upon the hon. Member to withdraw those expressions.
§ Mr. WALLHEADI persist in what I say. I mean what I say.
§ The CHAIRMANThen I must ask the hon. Member to leave the House.
§ The hon. Member refused to withdraw, and the CHAIEMAN left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
§ Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair.
§ The CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANSI have to report the hon. Member for Merthyr (Mr. Wallhead) for disregarding the authority of the Chair.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI have to name Mr. Wallhead for disregarding the authority of the Chair.
§ The PRIME MINISTERI beg to move, "That Mr. Wallhead, the Member for Merthyr, be suspended from the service of the House."
§ Question put.
§ The House divided: Ayes, 272; Noes, 87.
1949| Division No. 380.] | AYES. | [11.9 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut-Colonel | Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Forrest, W. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Foster, Sir Harry S. |
| Albery, Irving James | Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Fraser, Captain Ian |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W. Derby) | Chapman, Sir S. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. |
| Apsley, Lord | Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Ganzoni, Sir John |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Christie, J. A. | Gates, Percy |
| Attbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent,Dover) | Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt Hon. Sir John |
| Atkinson, C. | Clarry, Reginald George | Goff, Sir Park |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Clayton, G. C. | Grace, John |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Cobb, Sir Cyril | Grant, Sir J. A. |
| Balniel, Lord | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. |
| Banks, Reginald Mitchell | Cocker ill, Brig.-General Sir George | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Colfox, Major William Phillips | Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol,N.) |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Cooper, A. Duff | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Cope, Major William | Gunston, Captain D. W. |
| Bennett, A. J. | Couper, J. B. | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) |
| Berry, Sir George | Courtauld, Major J. S. | Hall, Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) |
| Bethel, A. | Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Hammersley, S. S. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) | Harland, A. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Dalkeith, Earl of | Hartington, Marquess of |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil) | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Dawson, Sir Philip | Haslam, Henry C. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Dixey, A. C. | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd,Henley) |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Drewe, C. | Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Edge, Sir William | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Hilton, Cecil |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Ellis, R. G. | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | England, Colonel A. | Holt, Capt. H. P. |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Hopkins, J. W. W. |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Everard, W. Lindsay | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Falls, Sir Bertram G. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) |
| Cassels, J. D. | Fanshawe, Captain G. b. | Hume, Sir G. H. |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Fielden, E. B. | Hurst, Gerald B. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Finburgh, S. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. |
| Cayzer, MaJ.Sir Herbt.R. (Prtsmth.S.) | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. |
| Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast) |
| Jephcott, A. R. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Smithers, Waldron |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Nicholson,Col.Rt.Hon W.G.(Ptrsf'ld.) | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Nuttall, Ellis | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon.G.F. |
| Kindersley, Major Guy M. | Oakley, T. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| King, Commodore Henry Douglas | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Lamb, J. Q. | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Owen, Major G. | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Pennefather Sir John | Strauss, E. A. |
| Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Penny, Frederick George | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Little, Dr. E. Graham | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Styles, Captain H. Walter |
| Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Loder, J. de V. | Perring, Sir William George | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Long, Major Eric | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Pilcher, G. | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Lumley, L. R. | Power, Sir John Cecil | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Lynn, Sir R. J | Preston, William | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.) |
| MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Price, Major C. W. M. | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Radford, E. A. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Macintyre, Ian | Raine, Sir Walter | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| McLean, Major A. | Rawson, Sir Cooper | Waddington, R. |
| Macmillan, Captain H. | Reid, D. D. (County Down) | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| MacRobert, Alexander M. | Remer, J. R. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Maltland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) | Wells, S. R. |
| Margesson, Captain D. | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Marriott. Sir J. A. R. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Rye, F. G. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Meller, R. J. | Salmon, Major I. | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Merriman, F. B. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Meyer, Sir Frank | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Sandeman, N. Stewart | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Sanders, Sir Robert A. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Sanderson, Sir Frank | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Sandon, Lord | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Moore, Sir Newton J. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) |
| Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Savery, S. S. | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Morris, R. H. | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T |
| Morrison, H. (Wilts. Salisbury) | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Murchison, Sir Kenneth | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley | |
| Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Shepperson, E. W. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Nelson, Sir Frank | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John | Captain Viscount Curzon and Major |
| Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) | The Marquess of Titchfield. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Baker, Walter | Hardie, George D. | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Hayday, Arthur | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Barnes, A. | Hayes, John Henry | Stamford, T. W. |
| Batey, Joseph | Henderson, T (Glasgow) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Hirst, G. H. | Sullivan, J. |
| Broad, F. A. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Sutton, J. E. |
| Bromfield, William | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Thorne, W. (West Ham Plaistow) |
| Bromley, J. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Clowes, S. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Townend, A. E. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Kelly, W. T. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Compton, Joseph | Lansbury, George | Viant, S. P. |
| Connolly, M. | Lawrence, Susan | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Cove, W. G. | Lee. F. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Lindley, F. W. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Lowth, T. | Welsh, J. C. |
| Dennison, R. | Montague, Frederick | Westwood, J. |
| Duncan, C. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Dunnico, H. | Murnin, H. | Whiteley, W. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Oliver, George Harold | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Gardner, J. P. | Palin, John Henry | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Paling, W. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Potts, John S. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Greenall, T. | Ritson, J. | Windsor, Walter |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Saklatvala, Shapurji | Wright, W. |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Salter, Dr. Alfred | |
| Groves, T. | Scurr, John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Grundy, T. W. | Sexton, James | Mr. Kirkwood and Mr. Neil Maclean. |
§ Mr. SPEAKERIn accordance with the decision of the House, the hon. Member for Merthyr must please leave the House.
§ The hon. Member withdrew accordingly.
1951§ Bill again considered in Committee.
§ [Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]
§ The CHAIRMANMr. Greenwood.
§ Mr. SULLIVANOn a point of Order. As one very much affected by the Bill before the House, I want to protest in the strongest possible manner against your action in putting the Clause without discussion.
§ The CHAIRMANThat is no point of Order.
§ Mr. SULLIVANI have already tried to describe the action you have taken in the Chair. I have taken no part in disturbance in this House, but we miners have a strong feeling on this Bill. It may be all right for Members opposite to sit somewhere else than in the Chamber and allow a Clause to go through without discussion
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member said he rose to a point of Order. What is the point of Order?
§ Mr. SULLIVANThe point of Order I make is that your action has been damned unfair.
§ Mr. GREENWOODrose. [Interruption.]
§ Mr. COMPTONOn a point of Order, Mr. Hope. Would I be in order in moving a Vote of Censure on the Chairman, in that he has named the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) for using language which is not even as bad as that which has been used now and which he has overlooked?
§ The CHAIRMANI do not appreciate the point. Perhaps the hon. Member will repeat it.
§ Mr. COMPTONThe point I wish to make is this. Would I be in order in moving a Vote of Censure on the Chairman of Committees for naming an hon. Member of this House for using language that has been used repeatedly since by Members who have not been named?
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member can put a Motion on the Paper on which Mr. Speaker will rule.
§ Mr. COMPTONI shall have great pleasure in doing so.
Mr. BECKETTOn a further point of Order. Is it not possible, Mr. Chairman, now that you have accepted the 1952 description of the hon. Member for Both-well (Mr. Sullivan) for the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) to be brought back, as you yourself have accepted the statement, by virtue of your action, to be inaccurate?
§ Mr. CONNOLLYI would like to rise to a point of Order. How long do you intend to allow this sort of thing to go on? [Interruption.] Is it not possible for ordinary business methods to be applied to the work of this Committee? [Interruption.] Is it not possible for you, after what has happened, to report to the Speaker and for the Speaker to call for some explanation as to the origin of this trouble from a Member of the Front Opposition Bench or, alternatively, to suspend the sitting of this House? Are we to go on, all night, apparently, seeing Members suspended?
§ The CHAIRMANThe suggestion of the hon. Member is well worth consideration, and, if it were possible to apply it, I think it would be a most excellent suggestion, that the origin should be discussed and made known.
§ Mr. CONNOLLYWill you accept a Motion?
§ The CHAIRMANUnder the Rules of the House, it is not possible for me to do so. The Rules may be faulty, but I have to administer them to the best of my powers.
§ Mr. CONNOLLYIf that be so, it is time the Government brought in a Bill to alter it.
§ Mr. GREENWOODrose—
§ Mr. MACLEANOn a point of Order. I wish to ask you, Mr. Hope, in view of your reply to the last point of Order that was made, whether there are certain Rules of the House which must be observed, and is it not the case that when a certain Motion was moved in this Committee, you, as Chairman of the Committee, had the right not to take notice of that Motion, but to go on with the proceedings, as you believed it to be possible for the business to be conducted? Is this turmoil, which has been going on for the last hour and a half, not due to the very bad Ruling that you yourself gave? [Interruption.]
§ The CHAIRMANrose—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. MACLEANI wish to call attention—
§ The CHAIRMANThis is not the time or occasion to question the former Ruling of the Chair. If the hon. Member has a point of Order on the Amendment which I have called upon the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Greenwood) to move, I will hear him on that.
§ Mr. MACLEANMy point of Order has to do with your Ruling.
§ The CHAIRMANThe question before the Committee is the Amendment which I have called upon the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne to move, and I cannot hear the hon. Member on anything else but that.
§ Mr. MACLEANThe point of Order I have raised is the only matter before the Committee, and not the Amendment which you have called. A point of Order takes precedence of all business in this House, as you ought to know.
§ The CHAIRMANI have told the hon. Member that there is no point of Order.
§ Mr. MACLEANYou have not heard the finish of my point of Order, and until I have completed it you do not know the sense of it.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member has referred to a past decision of mine. He is not in order in discussing that. Mr. Greenwood.
§ Mr. MACLEANOn a point of Order. The point which I have been trying to express would, but for your repeated interruptions, have been finished long ago, and put in the same way, if you had not done what you have done. All the Amendments which you ruled out of order would have been discussed and voted upon, and we should have arrived at the particular Amendment which you have now called upon the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne to move. You, by your action, are trying to shelter yourself behind the Rules, and you yourself have deliberately delayed the business of this House.
§ The CHAIRMANrose.[Interruption.]
§ Mr. MACLEANYou are mainly responsible for the scenes that have taken place. If you had any sense of decency or any sense of the proprieties of this House you would resign from the Chairmanship of this House.
§ The CHAIRMANMr. Greenwood.
§ Mr. GREENWOODrose—
§ Mr. MACLEANMy point of Order is, "Are you going to resign the Chairmanship, because of your unfair and partisan ruling in this House?"
§ The CHAIRMANAs regards my ruling, if the hon. Member again reflects upon my conduct in the Chair, I shall have to ask him to withdraw.
§ Mr. MACLEANYour conduct is the worst reflection upon you in this House.
§ The CHAIRMANI must ask the hon. Member to leave the House.
§ Mr. MACLEANI shall leave it when you take the usual course.
§ THE CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
§ Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair.
§ The CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANSI have to inform you that I have to name the hon. Member for the Govan Division of Glasgow (Mr. Maclean) for disregarding the authority of the Chair.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI have to name Mr. Maclean for disregarding the authority of the Chair.
§ The PRIME MINISTERI beg to move, "That Mr. Neil Maclean, the hon. Member for the Govan Division of Glasgow, be suspended from the service of the House."
§ Question put.
§ The House divided: Ayes, 274; Noes, 77.
1957| Division No. 381.] | AYES. | [11.43 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Liut.-Colonel | Apsley, Lord | Balfour, George (Hampstead) |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Balniel, Lord |
| Ainsworth, Major Charles | Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Barclay-Harvey, C. M. |
| Albery, Irving James | Astor, Maj. Hn. John J.(Kent, Dover) | Barnett, Major Sir Richard |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Atkinson, C. | Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W.Derby) | Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) |
| Bennett, A. J. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Bethel, A. | Goff, Sir Park | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Gower, Sir Robert | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Grace, John | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Grant, Sir J. A. | Oakley, T. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Crott | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Guest, Capt.Rt.Hon. F. E. (Bristol,N.) | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Pennefather. Sir John |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Penny, Frederick George |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Hall, Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Perring, Sir William George |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Harland, A. | Pilcher, G. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Harris, Percy A. | Preston, William |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Hartington, Marquess of | Price, Major C. W. M |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Radford, E. A. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Haslam, Henry C. | Rawson, sir Cooper |
| Campbell, E. T. | Hawke, John Anthony | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Remer, J. R. |
| Casseis, J. D. | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stratford) |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Hilton, Cecil | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Rye, F. G. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Holt, Capt. H. P. | Salmon, Major I. |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Christie, J. A. | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Hudson, Capt A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Hume, Sir G. H. | Sandon, Lord |
| Clayton, G. C. | Hurst, Gerald B. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Savery, S. S. |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Jephcott, A. R. | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R.. Sowerby) |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Philip | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Sheffield. Sir Berkeley |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Cope, Major William | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Couper, J. B. | Kindersley, Major Guy M. | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast) |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kino'dine,C.) |
| Crawfurd. H. E. | Lamb, J. Q. | Smithers, Waldron |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Little, Dr. E. Graham | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Loder, J. de V. | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil) | Long, Major Eric | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Strauss, E. A. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Lumley, L. R. | Streatfelld, Captain S. R. |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Styles, Captain H. Walter |
| Dixey, A. C. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Drewe, C. | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Edge, Sir William | Macintyre, Ian | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | McLean, Major A. | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Macmillan Captain H. | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Ellis, R. G. | Mac Robert, Alexander M. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| England, Colonel A. | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel. | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell. |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Margesson, Capt. D. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Waddington, R. |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Mason. Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Falle. Sir Bertram G. | Meller, R. J. | Ward. Lt.-Col.A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Merriman. F. B. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Fenby, T. D. | Meyer, Sir Frank | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Fielden, E. B. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Wells. S. R. |
| Finburgh, S. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. S. M. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Williams. A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Forrest, W. | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Morris, R. H. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Murchison, Sir Kenneth | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Gates, Percy | Nelson, Sir Frank | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) |
| Woodcock, Colonel H. C. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Wragg, Herbert | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) | Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain Bowyer. |
| NOES | ||
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hall, G. H. (Methyr Tydvil) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Hardie, George D. | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Baker, Walter | Hayday, Arthur | Smith. Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertiflery) | Hayes, John Henry | Stamford, T. W. |
| Barnes, A. | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Batey, Joseph | Hirst, G. H. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Bromfield, William | Hudson, J. H. Huddersfield | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Bromley, J. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Townend, A. E |
| Clowes, S. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Varley, Frank B. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Kelly, W. T | Vlant, S. P. |
| Compton, Joseph | Lawrence, Susan | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Connolly, M. | Lindley, F. W. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Cove, W. G. | Lowth, T. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Montague, Frederick | Welsh, J. C. |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Westwood, J. |
| Dennison, R. | Murnin, H. | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Duncan, C. | Naylor, T. E. | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Dunnico, H. | Oliver, George Harold | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Gardner, J. P. | Palin, John Henry | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Paling, W. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Potts, John S. | Windsor, Walter |
| Greenall, T. | Ritson, J. | Wright, W. |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Saklatvala, Shapurji | |
| Groves, T. | Salter, Dr. Alfred | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Grundy, T. W. | Scurr, John | Mr. Kirkwood and Mr. Sullivan. |
| Hall, F. (York., W.R., Normanton) | Sexton, James |
§ Mr. SPEAKERIn accordance with the decision of the House, I must ask the hon. Member for Govan to leave the House.
§ Mr. MACLEANI do so out of respect for you, not for the Chairman.
§ The hon. Member withdrew accordingly.
§ Bill again considered in Committee.
§ [Mr. James Hope in the Chair.]
-
cc1957-2032
- CLAUSE 4.—(Rates of unemployment benefit.) 31,081 words, 7 divisions