22. Commander WILLIAMSasked the Secretary of State for War what was the cost of the French, Italian, and British Armies in all forms of salaries and pensions in 1913 and what they are to-day?
§ Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANSThe total amount provided in Army Estimates, 1927, for pay, marriage allowance, 1580 national insurances, gratuities, pensions, salaries and wages is about £33,200,000. The corresponding figure in Army Estimates, 1913, was about £17,750,000. I regret that I have not the information as regards the French and Italian Armies.
23. Commander WILLIAMSasked the Secretary of State for War what were the numbers of the French, Italian, and British Armies in 1913 and what are the relative figures for 1927?
§ Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANSI have had the figures set out in tabular form and I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate them in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Commander WILLIAMSMay I inquire if the salaries in the British Army in proportion to their numbers are not very much higher than those of other armies on the Continent?
§ Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANSUndoubtedly.
§ Captain GARRO-JONESDo the figures which the right hon. Gentleman has set out include trained reserves who occupy such a prominent place in Continental armies, and does not that alter the value of the figures which have just been given?
§ Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANSWill the hon. and gallant Gentleman wait and see?
§ Captain GARRO-JONESNo, Sir. I want to know whether the figures referred to make any reference to the trained reserves.
§ Mr. STEPHENIs it not better that these figures should be given to this House rather than to the Press?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThey will be given to the House.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYMay I press the right hon. Gentleman to give an answer to the question put by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South Hackney (Captain Garro-Jones). Will he say whether the figures include the Reserves; otherwise, they are of no value to us.
§ Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANSI have answered the question on the Paper, and, if the hon. and gallant Member will 1581 look at that question, and then look at my answer to-morrow, he will be able to answer his own question.
§ Lieut.-Commander KenworthyDoes the Secretary of State for War not know the answer?
§ Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANSOh, yes.
§ Captain GARRO-JONESrose—
§ Mr. SPEAKERHon. Members can pursue this matter by further questions.
§ Following are the figures:
| Numbers of British, French and Italian Armies. | ||||
| — | British(exclusive of India). | French. | Italian. | |
| 1913 | … | 181,233* | 645,000‡§ | 250,000‡ |
| 1927 | … | 152,501† | 715,000§‡ | 246,00‡ |
| *This figure excludes additional numbers (3,300), Royal Flying Corps (1,005), and Central Flying School (62), as well as the Territorial Force and the Reserves. | ||||
| †This figure excludes additional numbers (11,999) and Native Indian troops in the Middle East administered by the Air Ministry (2,000), as well as the Territorial Army and the Reserves. | ||||
| ‡Approximate figures | ||||
| §Including Gendarmerie in France, Colonial Garrisons abroad and North African Iregulars, but excluding Syrian levies. |
24. Commander WILLIAMSasked the Secretary of State for War what was the pay of the French, Italian, and British private soldier in 1913 and what it is in 1927?
§ Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANSThe pay of an infantry recruit in the British Army was 1s. a day in 1913, and is 2s. a day now. In the French and Italian Armies, I believe, that the rates were 5 centimes and 10 centesimi, respectively, in 1913, and are 25 centimes and 40 centesimi now, but the values of the French and Italian currencies are much reduced.
§ 45. Mr. RENNIE SMITHasked the Prime Minister the number of men under arms in Europe to-day under the several heads of Army, Navy, and Air Force?
§ The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin)It is not possible to state the number of men under arms in Europe to-day under the several heads asked for. The 1582 latest and most comprehensive information on the subject can be obtained on reference to the Armaments Year Book of the League of Nations—Third Year, 1926–27—which was issued in January last.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYDoes the right hon. Gentleman accept those figures as official?
§ The PRIME MINISTERI should like notice of that question
§ Captain GARRO-JONESWhere did the Secretary for War obtain the figures which he published?
§ The PRIME MINISTERThat does not arise out of this question.
55. Lieut.-Colonel Sir G. DALRYMPLEWHITEasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if, seeing that our expenditure on armaments is calculated to have increased by 8 per cent. since 1913, he will state how much of this increase is due to increased rates of pay to officers and men of the Navy, Army, and Air Force; and what is the total estimated reduction of expenditure since that date when allowance is made for the decreased value of money?
§ The FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. A. M. Samuel)The calculation to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers appears to be that of the League of Nations. In regard to that calculation, I would refer him to the reply, of which I am sending him a copy, given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on the 16th November last to my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Sir J. Power). I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the figures of the net Service Departments' Estimates in 1913 and 1927 including Supplementaries, showing separately the effective and non-effective Votes. The total increase is £38,050,700, of which the non-effective charges account for £9,749,800. The increase on effective Votes is £28,337,900, or 40 per cent., which would be more than accounted for by the altered value of money, even if no account were taken of the large additional sums necessitated by the development of the Air Force.
It is not practicable to separate increases of pay from increases due to re-organisation and re-grading, but a comparison of the main Pay Votes (Vote I) 1583 shows on the gross figures an increase of £14,327,000, or 71 per cent. on a personnel (Vote A) reduced from 331,600 in 1913 to 302,000 in 1927, by 9 per cent.
§ Colonel HOWARD-BURYCan my hon. Friend say whether the non-effective services of £10,000,000 include pension?
§ Mr. SAMUELYes, Sir. I am speaking from memory, but I think the £10,000,000, the sum which I have mentioned, does include pensions.
| Estimated Expenditure on Defence, 1913 and 1927. | |||||
| 1913. | |||||
| — | Effective. | Non-effective. | Total. | ||
| £ | £ | £ | |||
| Navy (original estimate) | … | … | 43,332,400 | 2,976,900 | 46,309,300 |
| Navy (supplementary estimate) | … | … | 2,500,000 | — | 2,500,000 |
| Army | … | … | 24,281,000 | 3,939,000 | 28,220,000 |
| Total estimated Defence Expenditure | 70,113,400 | 6,915,900 | 77,029,300 |