HC Deb 15 November 1927 vol 210 cc956-71
Mr. WALLHEAD

I beg to move to leave out the Clause.

This Clause is almost a twin of the Clause we passed a short time ago dealing with the question of the renter. The difference is that in this case exhibitors are required to be licensed twice. They must be licensed by the Board of Trade, although they are already licensed by the local authority. For the life of me I cannot understand why exhibitors should have to be licensed under this Bill. The consideration which applies to the renters in no way applies to them. The argument put forward with regard to the renters in no way applies to them. The argument put forward with regard to renters was that they might be foreigners, and that if we did not license them and impose penalties for failure to take out a licence they would be making a profit for themselves by not obtaining licences. But the exhibitors are not foreigners, and I see no reason why we should require them to take out licences, any more than other business men. The penalty is the same as in the other case—£20 for each day which the exhibitor carries on business without a licence. If by any stretch of the imagination it could be thought to be legitimate to put a fine of this magnitude on a renter who might be an alien, taking advantage of our weakness, our super-British weakness, our fondness for foreigners, such considerations do not apply in the case of an exhibitor. Consider what the penalty is—a fine of £20 for what may be a mere lapse of memory on the part of an individual.

I understand that this is a £1 licence, and for not taking out that licence the penalty is to be £20 per day. I will not quote the motor driver, but what about the milk adulterator or the food poisoner? Here we have leniency meted out to those who practice food adulteration, but compare that with the £20 per day fine which is imposed under this Bill. [An HON. MEMBER: "It says not exceeding £20!"] I am aware that the fine has not to exceed £20. I am taking it that the limit placed in the Bill is £20, according to the judgment of the magistrates, and I am comparing this fine with breaches of the law in other directions. The whole thing is an outrage, and a preposterous thing for a Government to do. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will see his way to accept this Amendment and withdraw the Clause. If this offence was in any sense comparable with the penalty imposed, it would be different, but I cannot conceive who is going to be injured if the offence takes place. The quota would be complied with and the films would be shown, but the £1 would not be paid for the licence, and because of that the magistrates have power to impose this stupendous fine which is entirely out of all proportion to the offence.

Mr. KELLY

Amendment.

I wonder how many licences the Government think the cinema proprietors should hold? They are all compelled to take out a licence from the local authority for the purpose of holding a cinema. They have to take out a music licence, and if they permit dancing they must take out a dancing licence. Is it the intention of the Government to make it as difficult as possible for these people to carry on their business? Now you are going to impose upon these people who apply for permission to exhibit films the obligation of holding a number of trade licences, and instead of helping the film industry the intention of the Government is to make it as difficult as possible for them. I hope the House will carry this Amendment, and get rid of this penalty of £20 a day.

Sir B. CHADWICK

I hope the hon. Member will not press this Amendment, because it is one of the key Clauses of the Bill. If the principles of the Bill are to be carried out, one important consideration is that the exhibitors should take out a licence. A penalty of £20 a day is not considered to be excessive for such a serious offence as the failure to take out a licence. The hon. Member has referred to the number of licences that these people must take out, but I do not think in practice that this will be found to be difficult. These people know what they have got to do, and where they have to go to get the licence, and, for these reasons, I ask the House to pass this Clause.

Mr. WALLHEAD

Will the Parliamentary Secretary tell me what would happen supposing the provision relating to licensing was knocked out? How would it affect the film industry and the production of films?

Sir B. CHADWICK

That question carries us back to the principle as to whether the exhibitors' quota and the renters' quota are desirable, and that is a subject which I cannot deal with at the present moment.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I think the Parliamentary Secretary is mistaken in what he has just stated, because this Amendment will not make any difference to the quota. You can insist upon certain things being done without taking out an annual licence. The main point is that this Clause provides the finance of the Bill. You have some 4,000 exhibitors, and each of them has got to contribute one guinea a year. I am amazed at the hon. Member for Merthyr (Mr. Wallhead) suggesting that the Government should drop out this method of taxing the people of this country. Of course, these people must pay, because that is the intention of the Government. These people have to take out a licence from the local authority. Everybody cannot get a licence to run a cinema. It is well known that you have to conform to certain conditions. Proper precautions have to be taken against the risk of fire, and, if such conditions are not complied with, it means that the theatre is not safe. I have no objection to that sort of licence, but this is merely a method of taxation. Every single soul could go to the right hon. Gentleman's Department, if this Bill goes through, and take out a licence as an exhibitor. He might never show a single picture, but the Government will have his cash. This licence is purely and simply a method of taxing the industry to raise funds for the Department.

Let me ask whether the person who does not pay his tax, say his super-tax, punctually is treated like the man who has not paid his licence fee for the Government Department. This is simply an annual payment to the Government. If that annual payment is one day in arrears, there will be a £20 fine; two days in arrears, a £40 fine; a week in arrears, a £140 fine. Why does not the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade refer to the Chancellor of the Exchequer this admirable method of getting taxes paid up to date? No question of interest or compound interest; fine the brute. Of course, Conservatives will stand that sort of thing. The drafters of this Bill were not such fools as one would think they were. When the Bill was originally introduced, it was not to be so easy to get a licence as an exhibitor. There were conditions attached. If a man lost his licence and broke the law, as this Bill was originally introduced, and if he still tried to keep his theatre open, then there might be justification in fining him £20 for keeping his theatre open, but they took that out in Committee. Now a man incurs no loss of licence for anything he does. He can get drunk every night and he can even be incarcerated without loss of licence. I cannot help feeling that the 4,000 exhibitors who are voters will not be excessively grateful to the Government for being selected from all the other body of taxpayers in this country for treatment which is not merely evil but foolish.

Mr. DIXEY

It is impossible that the eloquent appeals of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) can have no effect upon this side of the House. I would like to address a question to the Parliamentary Secretary of the Board of Trade; it is whether he will consider a reduction of the penalty in this Clause.

Colonel DAY

There is one point which has evidently been lost sight of, and it is a very important one. While I particularly support the Amendment that has been moved, I would like to point out that there are several thousands of music halls which show films as a portion of their programme, and these will be registered films. Will the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade say whether these music hall proprietors who only show a topical budget, or perhaps one film of five or six hundred feet, will be compelled to take out a licence or will be liable to penalties for failure to do so?

Sir CHARLES OMAN

The right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) who said that these licences are intended by the Government to make it difficult for anybody to exhibit films, might as well say that the dog licence is intended deliberately on the part of the Government to prevent people keeping dogs. We have been talking about £20 fines, but £20 is the extreme limit. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman knows perfectly well that a man, who by some small carelessness is a day late in registering himself, will not be fined £20. He will be fined the least that the Court thinks proper, which may be five shillings. You might as well say that a man who happens to run against another man in the street will be sent to prison for seven years, because that is the sentence which can be given for aggra- vated assault. It is a farce to pretend that the maximum is the fine that is going to be imposed.

Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER

If what the hon. Gentleman has said were true, we might qualify our opinion, but we are not at all certain from recent history that the defendants in Police Courts get that justice meted out to them which the hon. Gentleman opposite says.

Sir C. OMAN

On a. point of Order. Is a discussion on the way in which justice is administered in England germane to a discussion of this Bill?

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

The hon. Gentleman has just referred to that question himself, and I think the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander) is not out of order in referring to it.

Mr. ALEXANDER

The hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir C. Oman) has assumed that it will be only in rare cases that the maximum penalty will be imposed. I would like to mention a case of a cinematograph proprietor in Lancashire, which I quoted in the Committee upstairs. He forgot to make an application for a special one-day licence to open his theatre on Good Friday, and he opened it without permission while every other theatre in the town was also open. He was taken to the Police Court and fined, and, when it came to a question of renewing his licence, the renewal was refused on the ground that he was a convicted person.

Sir C. OMAN

Were all the other theatres open on Good Friday or not?

Mr. ALEXANDER

They were open. The proprietors were wise enough not to forget, and they made application for special licences. So merciful was the attitude of the bench of magistrates that this man was treated as a convicted person and did not have his licence renewed. It is no good to say we are always perfectly safe in putting in high penalties in the statures, because in the majority of cases Courts of summary jurisdiction will not impose the maximum penalty. From various cases which have been taken to higher Courts from Courts of summary jurisdiction, it is clear that, whenever we have to deal in this House with the lay- ing down of penalties, we should not leave too much to the discretion of Courts of summary jurisdiction.

Mr. R. MORRISON

The hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir C. Oman) produced an argument which was really astonishing when we read in a paper only last week that a woman was charged with stealing four pints of milk, and the magistrate, when summing up the case, said he could have inflicted a penalty of six months' imprisonment and that he had to take that into consideration.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

I should like to point out that there is an Amendment dealing specifically with the question of penalties which has been marked by Mr. Speaker for selection. If the present discussion is to run entirely on the question of penalties, then we cannot have the same discussion twice over.

Mr. MORRISON

I do not wish to carry it further except to make the point which was made in Committee upstairs, that in coming to a decision a magistrate takes into consideration the maximum penalty and then makes the penalty accordingly. That is the case which we are arguing from this side.

Mr. T. WILLIAMS

May we not have a reply from the Parliamentary Secretary with regard to the question submitted to him as to music halls, public halls, or charity organisations which not infrequently use comparatively small films I Are they all going to be called upon to take out licences? If so, there seems to be justification, not only on the part of Members on these benches but of those on the benches opposite, for hesitating before they give sanction to the imposition of such a penalty.

Sir B. CHADWICK

With the permission of the House, I will reply to that. Perhaps hon. Members will look at Clause 31, where they will find on page 18 the definition that: The expression 'theatre' includes any premises in respect of which a licence is required to be issued under the Cinematograph Act, 1909, or would be so required if the film were an inflammable film. That is the definition. Having regard to that, I can say that when the time comes —there is an Amendment later on the Paper dealing with penalties—I shall be prepared to reduce the penalty from £20 to £10.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'forty,' in line 20, stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 240; Noes, 136.

Division No. 340.] AYES. [9.39 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Fleiden, E B. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Ainsworth, Major Charles Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Albery, Irving James Forrest, W. Murchison, Sir Kenneth
Alexander, E. E (Leyton) Foster, Sir Harry S. Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Nelson, Sir Frank
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Fraser, Captain Ian Neville, Sir Reginald J.
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Ganzoni, Sir John Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Nuttall, Ellis
Banks, Reginald Mitchell Gates, Percy O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Goff, Sir Park Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Grace, John Penny, Frederick George
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Grant, Sir J. A. Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Berry, Sir George Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Philipson, Mabel
Bethel, A. Greene, W. P. Crawford Pilcher, G
Betterton, Henry B. Grotrian, H. Brent Power, Sir John Cecil
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Gunston, Captain D. W. Price, Major C. W. M.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Radford, E. A.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Raine, Sir Walter
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Ramsden, E.
Braithwaite, Major A. N. Harland, A. Rawson, Sir Cooper
Brassey, Sir Leonard Harney, E. A. Rees, Sir Beddoe
Briggs, J. Harold Haslam, Henry C. Remer, J. R.
Briscoe, Richard George Hawke, John Anthony Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Brittain, Sir Harry Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Ropner, Major L.
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Henn, Sir Sydney H. Rye, F. G.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y) Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Salmon, Major I.
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Hills, Major John Waller Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Burman, J. B. Hilton, Cecil Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Burton, Colonel H. W. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Sandeman, N. Stewart
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Calne, Gordon Hall Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Sanderson, Sir Frank
Campbell, E. T. Hopkins, J. W. W. Sandon, Lord
Cassels, J. P Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Savery, S. S.
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth S.) Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hume, Sir G. H. Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Huntingfield, Lord Shaw, Lt.-Col. A.D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)
Chapman, Sir S. Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Cassels, J. D. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Shepperson, E. W.
Clarry, Reginald George Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Clayton, G. C. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Skelton, A. N.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Jephcott, A. R. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine. C.)
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Colman, N. C. D. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Smithers, Waldron
Conway, Sir W. Martin Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Cope. Major William King, Commodore Henry Douglas Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Couper, J. B. Lamb, J. Q. Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Leigh, Sir John (Claphamj Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Streatfeild, Captain S. R.
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Loder, J. de V. Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) Long, Major Eric Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Styles, Captain H. Walter
Dalkeith, Earl of Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Lumley, L. R. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Lynn, Sir R. J Templeton, W. P.
Davies, Dr. Vernon MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Dawson, Sir Philip Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Dean, Arthur Wellesley Maclntyre, Ian Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Dixey, A. C. McLean, Major A. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Drewe, C. Macmillan, Captain H. Tinne, J. A.
Eden, Captain Anthony MacRobert, Alexander M. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Edmondson, Major A. J. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. steel- Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Elliot, Major Walter E. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Waddington, R.
Ellis, R. G. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
England, Colonel A. Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Meller, R. J. Warrender, Sir Victor
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Merriman, F. B. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Everard, W. Lindsay Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Fairfax, Captain J. G. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Falle, Sir Bertram G. Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Watts, Dr. T.
Wells. S. R. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Womersley, W. J.
White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple- Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Withers, John James TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Wilson, Sir Charles H. (Leeds, Central) Wolmer, Viscount Captain Viscount Curzon and Cap-
tain Margesson.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Sitch, Charles, H.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Smillie, Robert
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hardle, George D. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Ammon, Charles George Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighiey)
Attlee, Clement Richard Hayday, Arthur Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Hayes, John Henry Snell, Harry
Baker, Walter Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hirst, G. H. Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
Batey, Joseph Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Stamford, T. W.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Stephen, Campbell
Broad, F. A. John, William (Rhondda, West) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Bromfield, William Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Strauss, E. A.
Bromley, J. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Sullivan. Joseph
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Kelly, W. T. Sutton, J. E.
Buchanan, G. Kennedy, T. Taylor, R. A.
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Thomson, Trevelvan (Middlesbre W.)
Cape, Thomas Kirkwood, D Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Charleton, H. C. Lawrence, Susan Tinker, John Joseph
Clowes, S. Lawson, John James Townend, A. E.
Cluse, W. S. Lee, F. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Lindley, F. W. Varley, Frank B,
Compton, Joseph Lowth, T. Viant, S. P.
Connolly, M. Lunn, William Wailhead, Richard C.
Cove, W. G. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Mackinder, W. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) March, S. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Day, Colonel Harry Maxton, James Wellock, Wilfred
Dennison, R. Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) Welsh, J. C.
Duncan, C. Montague, Frederick Westwood, J.
Dunnico, H. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Edge, Sir William Murnin, H. Whiteley, W.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Naylor, T. E. Wiggins, William Martin
Fenby, T. D. Oliver, George Harold Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Gardner, J. P. Owen, Major G. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Gibbins, Joseph Palin, John Henry Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Gillett, George M. Paling, W. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Gosling, Harry Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Potts, John S. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Ritson, J. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Greenall, T. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Wright, W.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R. Elland) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Rose, Frank H.
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Scrymgeour, E. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Groves, T. Scurr, John Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Charles
Grundy, T. W. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Edwards.
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Amendment made: In page 11, line 20, leave out the word "forty," and insert instead thereof the word "thirty-eight."—[Sir B. Chadwick.]

Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER

We have an Amendment on the Paper, in page 11, line 33, to leave out the words for each day on which he so carries on the business. This> is a point on which the Parliamentary Secretary made a suggestion just now. He agreed to reduce the maximum penalty from £20 to £10 per day. I said to the President of the Board of Trade yesterday that when we were discussing subsequent provisions of the Bill much would depend upon the extent to which the spirit of sweet reasonableness was continued. I welcome the offer which has been made, but I still say that the reduction of the penalty from £20 to £10 per day does not meet the case at all.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

I have here a manuscript Amendment which should come before that of the hon. Member.

Mr. ALEXANDER

We have not handed it in.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

That manuscript Amendment was handed in by the Government Whip after my hon. Friend had started his speech.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

That is not so. I had it by me while the last Division was in progress, but I am afraid I omitted to notice that it came before the Amendment of the hon. Member.

Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER

I beg to move, in page 11, line 33, to leave out the word "twenty," and to insert instead thereof the word "ten."

Mr. ALEXANDER

It is just as convenient to discuss the point on this Amendment as on the other. The Government have here offered an Amendment to reduce the maximum fine from £20 to £10 per day. That does not meet our case at all. We can well understand that when the Government were defending the penalty laid down with regard to the renters, at a previous stage, they took the course they did, though we did not agree with them. We understood that the Government had something of a case, because they wanted to try to force foreign renters to have a business domicile in this country. In this case you are dealing with the poor and unfortunate British cinematograph exhibitor, and you are proposing a cumulative fine of £10 per day if he should merely forget to take out a licence costing one guinea. There is no other offence possible except that he forgets to take out a licence. It is quite unreasonable, in the case of the exhibitor, to lay down a cumulative penalty of such a kind for an offence which is purely one of forget-fulness. Would the President of the Board of Trade to continue to show the spirit of sweet reasonableness by retaining the £10 but deleting the words " for each day"? The £10 would then be the final penalty on failure to take out a guinea licence. It is all very well for hon. Members opposite to say that this is a maximum penalty. Many magistrates judge the seriousness of a case largely by the amount of the penalty laid down. If a maximum penalty of £l is laid down, they will say, " This cannot be a very serious crime, and we might reasonably impose a fine of 2s. 6d. or 5s.," but if you lay down a cumulative penalty that may be anything up to £50 or £200, the magistrates will say that it is a very serious offence and make the fine higher than would otherwise be the case.

Mr. OLIVER

The penalty proposed in the Clause is out of all proportion to the paltry offence of forgetting to pay the sum of a guinea for a licence. The proposal is absurd. I do not see why special treatment should be meted out to this class of offender. Would it be asking too much for the President to recognise that for the first offence, at any rate, there should be a fixed maximum sum by way of penalty?

Question, "That the word 'twenty' stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

Question proposed, "That the word 'ten' be there inserted in the Bill."

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I hope we may now have the views of the President of the Board of Trade on this question. This is really a question of whether you should heavily fine a man for not paying the tax on the due day. There is nothing else in it. Anyone can get a licence and no one can lose a licence. It is simply a question of whether on the due day you have paid for your licence. The only crime is that of depriving the right hon. Gentleman's Department for a few days of that guinea, which must be paid.

Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER

I understand this has been dealt with already in a very long Debate. I understood that the Ruling of the Chair was that a general discussion might take place on the main Clause but a discussion should not take place on this, though a vote could be taken—a very practical suggestion. It has been pointed out over and over again that this is a maximum penalty for a breach of the Act, and it has been said that if a man can show that what he has done is merely an accidental piece of forgetfulness no bench of magistrates is likely to inflict a fine.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

What else can it be?

Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER

It may be a deliberate evasion of the law.

Question put, "That the word 'ten' be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 251;; Noes, 134.

Division No. 341.] AYES. [9.59 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Murchison, Sir Kenneth
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Fielden, E. B. Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph
Ainsworth, Major Charles Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Nelson, Sir Frank
Albery, Irving James Forrest, W. Neville, Sir Reginald J.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Foster, Sir Harry S. Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Nuttall, Ellis
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Fraser, Captain Ian O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Ganzoni, Sir John Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Gates, Percy Penny, Frederick George
Banks, Reginald Mitchell Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Goff, Sir Park Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Grace, John Philipson, Mabel
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Pilcher, G.
Beanmish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Grant, Sir J. A. Power, Sir John Cecil
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Price, Major C. W. M.
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Greene, W. P. Crawford Radford, E. A.
Berry, Sir George Grotrian, H. Brent Raine, Sir Walter
Bethel, A. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Ramsden, E.
Betterton, Henry B. Gunston, Captain D. w. Rawson, Sir Cooper
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Rees, Sir Beddoe
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Remer, J. R.
Boothby, R. J. G. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Harland, A. Ropner, Major L.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Haslam, Henry C. Ruggles-Brise- Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Braithwaite, Major A. N. Hawke, John Anthony Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Brassey, Sir Leonard Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Rye, F. G.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) Salmon, Major I.
Briggs, J. Harold Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Briscoe, Richard George Henn, Sir Sydney H. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Brittain, Sir Harry Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Sandeman, N. Stewart
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Hilton, Cecil Sanderson, Sir Frank
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Sandon, Lord
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y) Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Savery, S. S.
Burman, J. B. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie
Burton, Colonel H. W. Hopkins, J. W. W. Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Shaw, Lt.-Col. A.D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)
Caine, Gordon Hall Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Campbell, E. T. Hudson, R. s. (Cumb'I' nd, Whiteh'n) Shepperson, E. W.
Cassels, J. D. Hume, Sir G. H. Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Skelton, A. N.
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Huntingfield, Lord Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine. C.)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Smithers, Waldron
Chapman, Sir S. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Christie, J. A. Jephcott, A. R. Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Clarry, Reginald George Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
Clayton, G. C. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George King, Commodore Henry Douglas Streatfeild, Captain S. R.
Colman, N. C. D. Lamb, J. Q. Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Conway, Sir W. Martin Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Couper, J. B. Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Styles, Captain H. Walter
Courtauld, Major J. S. Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Loder, J. de V. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) Long, Major Eric Templeton, W. P.
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Lumley, L. R. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)
Dalkeith, Earl of Lynn, Sir R. J. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Davidson, j.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Tinne, J. A.
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) MacIntyre, Ian Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Davies, Dr. Vernon McLean, Major A. Waddington, R.
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Macmillan, Captain H. Ward, Lt.-Col. A L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Dawson, Sir Philip Mac Robert, Alexander M. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Dean, Arthur Wellesley Maitland, Sir Arthur D. steel- Warrender, Sir Victor
Dixey, A. C. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Drewe, C. Margesson, Captain D. Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Eden, Captain Anthony Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Edmondson, Major A. J. Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. Watts, Dr. T.
Elliot, Major Walter E. Meller. R. J. Wells, S. R.
Ellis, R. G. Merriman, F. B. White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrympre-
England, Colonel A. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Everard, W. Lindsay Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Fairfax, Captain J. G. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Falle, Sir Bertram G. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Wolmer, Viscount Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Womersley, W. J. Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Major Cope and Captain Viscount
Wood, Sir Klngslay (Woolwich, W.). Curzon.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Scurr, John
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Sitch, Charles H.
Amnion, Charles George Hardie, George D. Smillie, Rober'
Attlee, Clement Richard Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) Hayday, Arthur Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Baker, Walter Hayes, John Henry Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Snell, Harry
Batey, Joseph Hirst, G. H. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Stamford, T. W.
Broad, F. A. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Stephen, Campbell
Bromfield, William John, William (Rhondda, West) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Bromley, J. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Strauss, E. A.
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Sullivan, J.
Buchanan, G. Kelly, W. T. Sutton, J. E.
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Kennedy, T. Taylor, R. A.
Cape, Thomas Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M Thomson. Trevelvan (Middles., W.)
Charleton, H C. Kirkwood, D Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Clowes, S. Lawrence, Susan Tinker, John Joseph
Cluse, W. S. Lawson, John James Townend, A. E.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Lee, F. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Compton, Joseph Lindley, F. W. Varley, Frank B.
Connolly, M. Lowth, T. Viant, S. P.
Cove, W. G. Lunn, William Wailhead, Richard C.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Mackinder, W. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) MacLaren, Andrew Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Day, Colonel Harry March, S. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Dennison, R. Maxton, James Wellock, Wilfred
Duncan, C. Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) Welsh, J. C.
Dunnlco, H. Montague, Frederick Westwood, J.
Edge, Sir William Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Murnin, H. Wiggins, William Martin
Fenby, T. D. Naylor, T. E. Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Gardner, J. P. Oliver, George Harold Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Gibbins, Joseph Owen, major G. Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Gillett, George M. Palin, John Henry Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Gosling, Harry Paling, W. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attereliffe)
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Greenall, T. Potts, John S. Wright, W.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Ritson, J. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Groves, T. Rose, Frank H. Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Charles
Grundy, T. W. Scrymgeour, E. Edwards.