§ 26. Mr. ERNEST BROWNasked the Minister of Labour the number of unemployed persons in the first nine months of 1927 in England, Wales, and Scotland, respectively, who have had claims for benefit disallowed and are now in receipt of Poor Law relief?
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDI regret that statistics giving the desired information are not available.
§ Mr. BROWNMay I ask whether any attempt has been made, in view of the gravity of this question in certain areas, to ascertain the number of people coming on the rates?
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDIt would not be possible to obtain figures of that kind without an elaborate examination of all the cases in the different classes, and I am afraid it is not feasible.
§ Mr. BROWNAre not these figures germane to the discussions to-morrow and on Thursday, and how can the House make up its mind on the subject unless it knows what is likely to be the outcome of the new conditions under which men will draw benefit?
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDThere may be figures that would be germane if procurable, but which simply cannot be procured. If the hon. Member will get into communication with me as to any figures that bear on the subject, I shall be glad to try and give them to him.
Mr. BECKETTIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that a great many boards of guardians in industrial areas can give him the figures as to the number of men put on the rates since the disallowance of unemployment benefit?
§ Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMSDoes not the Ministry of Labour publish every quarter a statement containing this information?
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDA certain amount.
§ Mr. STEPHENWould not the right hon. Gentleman consider working out in a particular area the figures asked for in this question?
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDI could not promise that particular kind of figure without ascertaining the amount of labour that would be involved and whether it would be typical of the country as a whole. I am perfectly prepared to see if there are any figures which would throw light on this aspect of the situa tion and which it would be possible to procure.
§ Mr. LAWSONIs it not a fact that boards of guardians in certain areas have given the right hon. Gentleman these figures, and is not their information reliable, seeing that they make very elaborate investigations before they grant relief?
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDNo, Sir. they have not given me those figures.
§ Mr. SULLIVANIn view of the fact that this only applies to industrial areas, and that boards of guardians and parish councils have these figures, if the right hon. Gentleman has not got them, does not he think it desirable that we should have them?
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDThey have not those figures.
§ Mr. KIRKWOODIs it not the case that the right hon. Gentleman does not want to get these figures because they would prove to him that there are more unemployed than appear on the register? Is not that the explanation?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThis is not the time for psychology.
§ 29. Mr. BROWNasked the Minister of Labour the number of claims to standard and extended benefit, respectively, disallowed from the 1st January, 1927, to, 31st October, 1927?
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDBetween 10th January, 1927, and 10th October, out of 2,448,727 applications for extended benefit considered by local employment committees in Great Britain, 458,446 were recommended for disallowance. In addition, 275,152 applications for benefit were disallowed by the Chief Insurance Officer-during the period 1st January, 1927, to 31st October, including both standard and extended benefit claims, for which separate statistics are not available. In a number of these cases benefit was subsequently allowed on appeal to Courts of Referees and the Umpire. I am unable to state the number of separate individuals included in the figures.
§ Mr. BROWNHas any attempt been made, by examination of the books, to get an estimate of the number of persons coming within the categories which would not qualify them for benefit under the proposed new standard?
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDWe have made one inquiry in order to see about what the average effect of the contribution might be.
§ Mr. HARDIEIn view of the figures which the right hon. Gentleman has just given, may I ask whether any attempt is made to trace what happens to the disallowed person? Is any relationship shown between the figures of the Employment Exchanges and the increase in the figures of the parish councils or boards guardians, and, if not, cannot this be given?
§ Sir A. STEEL - MAITLANDI have had one such attempt made, to which I referred last Session. I could not quote 9 the results from memory, but I will give the hon. Member the reference if he wishes.
§ Mr. GRIFFITHSAre persons who are not likely to get employment in insured trades included in the number given in the answer?
§ Sir A. STEEL - MAITLANDPeople who are disallowed or not recommended for benefit on grounds analogous to what the hon. Member states—those are not the exact words of the condition—are included.
§ 33. Miss WILKINSONasked the Minister of Labour the total number of persons who have been refused unemployment benefit in the period 1st June to 30th October, 1927, and how many of these have been refused on the ground of long-standing unemployment?
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDDuring the period 14th June to 10th October, 1927, 1,013,464 applications for extended benefit were considered by local employment committees in Great Britain, and 177,910 were recommended for disallowance. In addition, 123,527 applications were disallowed by the chief insurance officer in the period 1st June to 31st October, 1927, but in a number of these cases benefit was subsequently allowed on appeal to Courts of Referees and the Umpire. I am unable to give the number of separate individuals included in these figures. Long-standing unemployment is not by itself necessarily a ground for the disallowance of unemployment benefit, but during the period referred to above 58,368 applications for extended benefit were recommended by committees for disallowance on the ground that the applicants had not had a reasonable period of insurable employment during the preceding two years.
§ Miss WILKINSONIn view of the fact that these cases of long-standing unemployment are coming largely from a few very necessitous areas, is the Department taking any steps to meet the authorities in those areas to train these men or to get them into different employment?
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDWe have made constant endeavours in areas in which unemployment is heaviest to see whether it is possible to transfer men 10 to other areas. That is constantly our preoccupation, and we do it as far as humanly possible. I shall be exceedingly glad to have help from any quarter.