§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £3.160,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of the Pay, &c., of His Majesty's Air Force at Home and Abroad, will conic in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1928.
§ Captain GARRO-JONESThere are only two items which I wish to deal on this Vote with, anal the first is one of £12,000, which has been paid to the Dominions as capitation payments for training of officers. Surely, at a time when the Dominions are expected to contribute a greater share towards Imperial defence, such an item should not appear, and I hope it will not appear on the Estimates very long after this year.
§ The CHAIRMANTo what item does the hon. and gallant it Member refer?
§ 11.0 p.m.
§ Captain GARRO-JONESTo Vote 1, Sub-head D. There is one other item, and that is under Miscellaneous Receipts, £22,000. This is an appropriation-in-aid, and not an expenditure. This sum of £22,000 was received by the Air Ministry from airmen who purchased their discharge—it, I should guess, is only a small proportion of the amount—and from airmen in the shape of fines and mulcts of pay. I wish to record a protest against these petty monetary inflictions upon aircraftsmen in the Royal Air Force. It is a bad principle which exists in all three fighting Services. If a soldier comes late on 1513 parade, or fails to clean his buttons, or overstays his leave by a few hours, he is brought before his commanding officer and fined two or three or four days' pay, and at times a month's pay. That is a very mean thing. When a man gets only 2s. a day and depends on it for his pocket money, and the little luxuries he gets with his pay, it is a mean and contemptible thing to take his pay for minor offences. I should like to see the system abolished throughout the Services. It gives rise to a great deal of justifiable discontent, and I commend it to the notice of the Secretary of State. Finally, I want to say that I hope the Votes dealing with the Air Ministry and Civil Aviation will not be rushed through as these other Votes are. We regard the Air Ministry as being badly run in many respects, and wastefully run, and there are many points which hon. Members want to raise.
§ Sir S. HOAREI can assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman there is no question of taking either the Air Ministry Vote or the Civil Aviation Vote to-night. So far as I. remember, the Air Ministry Vote—at any rate the salary of the Secretary of State—is kept open practically the whole Session. As to the two points he raised I do not agree with him as to the objectionable character of those small fines. I should have thought small fines would be regarded as better than confinement in barracks and other forms of military punishment. Anyhow, it is a question that does not concern my Department in particular but the whole of the three Services. With regard to the question about the payment to the Australian Government for the training of Air Force officers here, that payment is a part of the arrangements we make for co-operation between ourselves and the various Dominions. It suits Australia that we should train a certain number of Australians here, and that they should then go back to serve in Australia. It is a payment towards the cost of training those officers, in the same way that we make payments either to Australia or to some of the other Dominions. This is merely an example of the general system of co-operation which we try to adopt and the interchange of personnel between ourselves and the Air Forces of other parts of the Empire.
§ Sir JOSEPH NALLI think there is some misapprehension in the mind of the hon. and gallant Member opposite in talking about deductions from pay for trivial offences. My recollection is—I have not looked up the point—that a serving soldier can only be fined in one or two clearly defined cases, and only forfeits his pay if he is absent without leave. Trivial fines of the kind indicated cannot legally be imposed.
§ Captain GARRO-JONESThe hon. and gallant Member says only in cases of absence without leave. I believe it goes further than that. He is depending on his recollection, as I am. I wonder if that principle were accepted in this House—[Interruption.] The same principle should apply in all these matters. As far as Australia is concerned, Australia of all countries ought to be content to pay her share of the cost of training the Air Force, because the Dominion Government of Australia is going to benefit as largely, or more largely from the development of civil aviation than any other Dominion, and I express the hope again that this item will not appear in any future Estimates.
§ Sir J. NALLI claim the indulgence of the Committee to say another word, because it is not good enough for the hon. and gallant Member to snake the statement he now makes, which he admits is entirely from recollection. As a matter of fact, a man Call only be fined if convicted of drunkenness. His pay can be stopped if he be absent without leave, or damages property. In no other case can he be fined.