HC Deb 28 June 1927 vol 208 cc253-72
Sir ROBERT HAMILTON

I beg to move, in page 2, to leave out from the word "charged," in line 11, to the end of the Clause, and to insert instead thereof the words, "until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight."

We had a short discussion on this duty during the Budget Resolutions, and it was brought to our notice that the duty which is now existing was doubled in 1915, as a purely war measure. It is now proposed that that should be the duty for all time, and that it should not be brought up for annual review, as we think it should be. We have to remember that this is a duty on medicines, and that is a very important fact. You may call them patent medicines, you may call them quack medicines, but they are medicines, which the people of this country buy and use in very large quantities indeed, and it is mostly the poor who buy them. It is a duty with a very long history, with which I do not intend to weary the Committee now, but before the War it was a comparatively small duty. It was, as I say, doubled in 1915, and I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer told us that £1,340,000 is the exact estimate of the sum that it is to bring in for the coming year. That is a very considerable sum, and we know that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has got into difficulties with his Budget, owing to a variety of causes, would find the loss of £1,340,000 at the present time very considerable, and one which would have to be replaced from some other quarter.

Our Amendment, therefore, proposes that this duty should come up for review again next year and should not be made permanent. Hitherto, it has come up for review from time to time, but when the Financial Secretary to the Treasury was asked, in the course of the Budget Resolutions Debate the other day, why it was now going to be made permanent, he said that it was vexatious that the duty should be carried on from year to year without people knowing whether or not it was going to be made permanent. I should like to ask why we should make this duty, which was doubled for war purposes, permanent. Why should we tuck it away in a corner, not to come up for annual review, when we bear in mind, as we ought to bear in mind, whatever views individuals may have about the use of quack medicines, that millions of our poor countrymen use them, and use them with advantage? I do not suppose there is an hon. Member of this Committee who does not use, or has not used, or will not use, at some time in his life, one of these patent or quack medicines, whether as a lotion, an ointment, or a pill.

The whole world uses them, and, of course, that is a reason that was put forward from the Treasury Bench for taxing them. They bring in a very good revenue, but that was a most extraordinary argument used by the Financial Secretary the other day, when he said that during the last Three years the duty had gone up by nearly four times and that, therefore, it was a legitimate source of revenue. What an extraordinary argument, that because a thing that everybody uses, and most people want, will stand a high tax, therefore it is a legitimate source of revenue. That could be an argument for taxing bread or meat. It is perfectly true that these patent medicines have stood this extra duty and have brought in a large sum, but how? By the extra cost to the consumers. We have all had to pay more for our medicines. I want to impress upon the Committee all the time that no civilised country to-day is without these medicines. They may be good or bad medicines; they may cure by faith or by some obscure element in them which is secret, but, For all that, they are medicines which we are taxing, and I think I can confidently ask the Committee to support this Amendment, which will prevent this tax being kept on for all time and ensure that it will be brought up for review later on.

In the discussion the other day, I could not understand whether or not the Financial Secretary meant that the tax should be raised so as to deter the use of these medicines. He spoke of them as being quack medicines, and I think he said it had always been regarded as a tax on quack medicines. Of course, you can deter people from using them by putting the tax so high as to put it beyond the power of the poor to use them, but I do not suppose the right hon. Gentleman intends to do that. What is the principle on which these medicines are taxed? Is it in order to deter people from using them, is it in order to bring in revenue, or is it in some way to help the legitimate kind of doctor? It has always seemed to me rather a curious tax, and, therefore, I confidently commend my Amendment to the consideration of the Committee.

The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Ronald McNeill)

I am afraid that, notwithstanding what the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir R. Hamilton) has said, I must beg leave to repeat the argument which he thinks was absurd. I have always under- stood that it was more or less an axiom of taxation that, when you find that a tax is not in any way decreasing the consumption, but that, on the contrary, in spite of the tax, there is a large and increasing consumption, it was usually taken as a. proof that there is nothing oppressive in the tax. The hon. Gentleman has used an argument which is always applicable to indirect taxation of any kind. He says that the tax is derived from the consumer, and, of course, it is. This tax really is not one that falls in any true and wide sense upon medicine as understood at the present day, because there is an exemption, as the lion. Member knows, Any medicine which comes under the heading of a regular medicine recommended by a doctor escapes the tax. I quite admit, as I have admitted before, that this is a very old duty, and that it is an anomalous duty in many respects. It comes down from the eighteenth century, and I quite agree that, if we were devising de novo an ideal fiscal system, it is very likely that this particular duty would not find a place in it, but, as a matter of fact, it has been, and is, regarded by the public and the traders concerned as entirely unobjectionable, and the only question which is raised in this Amendment is whether the additional duty put on during the War is or is not to be upon a permanent basis.

The hon. Gentleman said that, whether it is good or bad, it ought not to be tucked away and put on a permanent basis. But the original tax is on a permanent basis. The only question which has to be debated each year is whether this additional amount put on during the War is or is not to continue. I repeat that as, to all intents and purposes, it is, and is likely to remain on a permanent basis, it really becomes an absurdity that half the duty should be placed upon an annual basis and the other half upon a permanent basis. As I have said previously, I think that is vexatious. We cannot, so far as the present year is concerned, do without the revenue, and, in fact, the hon. Gentleman does not propose that we should. All that he proposes is that we should debate the duty again next year. Of course, if the hon. Gentleman or anyone else thinks next year that the time has come for it to disappear, it is quite easy for him to bring it up in the discussion on the Finance Bill next year.

Sir R. HAMILTONindicated dissent.

Mr. McNEILL

The hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but he is wrong. All that he has to do is to put down a new Clause next year, and then it can be discussed in exactly the same way as if it came up annually. The only difference is that unless some hon. Member positively wants to raise the discussion in that way, it will not have to be put down as a matter of course, and a Clause passed in order to perpetuate or to continue for another year one half of a duty the other half of which is permanent. Therefore, I must ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.

Mr. HARRIS

I was rather surprised at the line which the right hon. Gentleman has taken. He admits right away that he would not defend this tax as the kind of tax that he would impose if he were arranging for his ideal Budget. What we want is that this tax should not be hidden away from the public gaze. It is a very dangerous thing if taxes are imposed that the public are not conscious of paying. With a little tax of this kind, people come in and buy medicines, and they are not conscious that they are, at the same time, paying a contribution towards the revenue. That is thoroughly unsound. It is the kind of taxation which stimulates and encourages extravagance. But there is another reason, which is more important, why we should review this tax next year and not make it permanent. This is a War tax, and it is a very remarkable thing that practically all the new taxes imposed during the War as temporary measures to meet an emergency have been retained by the Government. Reference has been made to the McKenna Duties. Having sneaked them through in War time, they have taken advantage of them and kept them permanently on the Statute Book, mid here is another irritating tax, imposed in an emergency, to meet a national crisis, to bring in revenue for War purposes, which is now to be kept on permanently by the Government.

The Government have been so extravagant and wasteful and incompetent that they have had to scratch for money wherever they could get it, from any corner, in order to make their Budget balance. The right hon. Gentleman says that next year we can put down a new Clause, but he knows very well that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would probably tell the House that he had made his arrangements for the financial year, that he had to balance his Budget, and that, if we knocked off half-a million or whatever the additional duty might be, his Budget would be spoiled and he would not save his balance. That is a very plausible excuse. We want to tell the Chancellor of the Exchequer that next year he must reconsider the whole position. There is a feeling in the House that this is an irritating, a foolish, an out-of-date, and an unwise tax, and, I believe, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury thinks that it is an irritating, a foolish, an out-of-date, and an unwise tax. It is only because the country is so hard-up that we have to raise revenue in this particular way.

When we considered this matter on the Budget Resolutions, the right hon. Gentleman told me that he had a Departmental Committee who solemnly sat and considered these duties, whether they were intelligible and whether their form should be altered. He told us that after they had sat for some considerable time they came to the conclusion they could not exclude the words of the Act of 1812. I looked up the Act. I do think that Members of this Committee have a responsibility to their constituents to look up the Act of Parliament under which the revenue of the country is raised. This Act of 1812 in a very interesting historical document, but, really, seriously to suggest that it provides words suitable for raising revenge is stretching the imagination a good deal. I have no doubt that the Committee was composed of members with a strong historical sense and who liked old-fashioned phraseology, and that they were not very anxious to do lawyers out of a job by making matters clear. The people who framed that Act were, to do them justice, very anxious to make the people understand what articles were to be taxed. Here are four pages of patent medicines advertised as taxable, and I venture to say that not one in 10 of them can be bought in any chemist's or grocer's shop in this country. Here they are: Adams's Solvent Addison's Re-animating European Balsam, Aetherial Aanodyne Spirit. and soon, column after column, ending with "Zimmerman's Stimulating Fluid." I would not mind offering a prize to any Member of this Committee who can buy any of these articles that the Committee of 1812 put on the list in order that the public should know whether a particular article was taxable or not. Are we sure that Beecham's pills and Enos fruit salts are rightly being taxed under the Act of 1812? It is true that at the very end of the Act, stowed away in the last Section, are some special exemptions—all drugs named or contained in the Book of hates subscribed with the name of Sir Harbottle Grimstone. I believe the hon. Baronet was a distinguished member of this House. I am not quite clear on this point, but I have no doubt that some of my medical friends will be able to tell me that this particular book is recognised as an authority on medicines. Anyhow, his medicines are excluded from taxation. Then there is a great number of additional articles, under which, I understand, the right hon. Gentleman takes refuge. It is the Section at the end of the long list of articles on the four pages referred to. It reads as follows: And also all other pills, powders, lozenges, tinctures, potions, cordials, electuaries and so on"— I do not want to weary the Committee by mentioning all of them—[HON. MEMBERS: "Go onexcl; "]— made, prepared, uttered, vended, or exposed to sale by any person or persons whatsoever, wherein the person making, preparing, uttering, vending, or exposing for sale the same, hath or claims to have any occult secret or art for the making or preparing the same. I very much doubt whether it is legal to advertise under our present law that an article is made under an occult secret. I would suggest to the Committee that it is impossible to use that kind of wording to justify the raising of additional taxes in 1927. It is a very doubtful direction to this House. It goes on to say: Or hath or claims to have any exclusive right or title to the making or preparing the same, or which have at any time heretofore been, now are or shall hereafter be prepared, uttered, vended or exposed to sale under the authority of any Leters Patent under the Great Seal.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

This is not a question which is before the Committee.

Mr. HARRIS

What I am showing is, that before we make this tax permanent, the Committee should be quite clear that the words governing the tax are on sound principles and intelligible to the public. I most respectfully submit that these words are out of date. I pressed last year, and also on the Budget Resolutions, for new words to be provided. This the Financial Secretary admitted, but, apparently, his Committee came to the conclusion that these words are clear. Having read them to the Committee—and after all we are the chosen of the country, and we are the most intelligent members of the public—I doubt whether the words are clear even to the majority of this Committee. At any rate, they are very complicated and involved. There is only one more sentence with which I should like to trouble the Committee. First, they must either be the result of occult secret or art or produced under Letters Patent, or which have at any time heretofore been, now are or shall hereafter be by any public notice or advertisement, or by any written or printed papers or hand bills, or by any label or words written or printed, affixed to, or delivered with any packet, box, bottle, phial or other in closure containing the same, held out or recommended to the public. I submit that to make, a tax of this kind permanent under words of this kind is not only an insult to the Committee, but is treating taxation in a light and frivolous manner. My remarks have caused a certain amount of amusement, but, after all, this is not the way to raise revenue in this country at a time like this. I would suggest to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury that if we are to have this tax, he should give an undertaking next year to reconsider the whole matter, that the words governing the imposition of the tax should be redrafted, and that another Clause should be put in the Finance Bill of next year. I do not suggest that it should be done this year. We do not want to be unreasonable. We are prepared to wait until 1928 with patience. But I do not think the right hon. Gentleman is justified in asking this Committee to impose this tax under an Act passed in 1812, the words of which are out of date and hardly intelligible to the general public.

Commander WILLIAMS

I do not propose to follow the hon. Gentleman into the realms of occult science or in regard to the wording of an Act of Parliament of 1812. I have no doubt that past history rather than looking forward to the future may be of more interest to his party than it is, possibly, to my party. [Interruption.] At any rate, our future is not concerned with occult science. Our future is absolutely assured for many years in this House. I have no doubt Gentlemen on the other side of the Committee dwell on these old Measures because they are more cheerful. I want to say one or two words about this Clause, which is of very great interest from many points of view. Personally, I am not interested in medicines of any kind. I am not at all sure whether there are not almost as many people in this country, if not more, injured through drinking medicines as there are through drinking other beverages.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

The question before the Committee is whether the tax should be permanent or temporary, and has nothing to do with the quality of the medicines.

Commander WILLIAMS

I want to be clear whether, in making this permanent, as we are to-day, the Chancellor of the Exchequer is doing something which many of us believe may possibly be a handicap in the future to a particular line of thought and argument. I believe that this putting of Excise Duties on to a great number of articles manufactured in England, is, on the whole, one to be deprecated. I would like to ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if, in discussing the Budget for another year, he will see whether it is not possible to put rather more duty on foreign articles coming in to compete with us, and rather less Excise Duty on British-made medicine, which is of a much higher quality and much more useful. Apparently, all parties except the Liberal party are agreed that this duty shall be made permanent. I conclude that the Socialist party are in agreement with the proposal, because they do not appear to be very interested in the subject. I would ask the Financial Secretary that one simple question, whether, in going into the matter another year, it will not be possible to lower the existing duty on British medicines and tighten up the duty on foreign medicines, and whether, before we pass this Clause, he will give the Committee a definite assurance that by passing this Clause it will not be more difficult to get that preference in the near future?

Sir HILTON YOUNG

There is, I think, a principle involved in this Amendment, and as it is raised by a series of Amendments from the benches opposite, it may be worth a single brief reference. The proposal is, that this duty should be re-debated annually. Is it not worth while reminding ourselves that the general structure of our financial organisation is that taxes and duties are permanent enactments, and that two only are reserved for annual reconsideration in order to give the House of Commons the opportunity, in short, of imposing its will upon the Executive? Those two which are reserved for annual re-enactment are one great direct tax, the Income Tax, and one great indirect, tax, the Tea Duty. It is very important in the interest of the trader that he should not be cast into annual doubt as to the basis upon which he is to make his prices during the coming year. It is in the interests of this House—it is surely common sense—that it should not be called upon to re-debate annually more subjects than it need debate. It tends to overwhelm the proceedings of this House with, at any rate, opportunities for discussions which are apt to lead us aside and possibly into discussions which are not, perhaps, vital to the business of the nation.

Finally, one word en the need of the principle which underlies this duty and which, I think, is so strong that it has strength enough to establish the duty as a permanent duty. One is not, perhaps, in favour of small fancy taxes. With regard to this particular tax, no doubt very large profits are made by vendors of patent medicines, and very largely from the credulity and ignorance of their fellow countrymen. Either the patent medicine, as sold, is worth nothing or contains nothing which is not in the ordinary pharmacopœa. In that case, the unfortunate purchaser has paid 10 times the amount the article is worth and it is quite just that the vendor should make some contribution to the revenue. In those cases where there is some special knowledge or secret of manufacture contained in the article sold it is surely in the public interest that the secret knowledge should be at the disposal of the whole medical profession, and if it is not put at the disposal of the whole medical profession then it is right that the vendor should pay for this retention of useful knowledge from the public generally.

Mr. E. BROWN

I am surprised that the hon. and gallant Member for Torquay (Commander Williams) should take the question of patent medicines lightly. There was an old-fashioned vendor of patent medicines in the West Country who used to sing this song: There be fifty cures for every ill, And each one be the best; You can drink them down, or rub them in, Or lay them on your chest. Up to recent times, in the hon. and gallant Member's own constituency, there has been a vendor of a particular herb medicine which would be taxed under this provision. It has brought relief to some of the hon. and gallant Member's constituents when the medical profession have been unable to do so. He, therefore, should be careful what he says about patent medicines in this House. We always receive with respect what the right hon. Member for Norwich (Sir Hilton Young) has to say on the general structure of the financial system of this country, but when he stresses the interests of the traders in this matter, I must point out that there are also the

Division No. 216.] AYES. [5. 50 p. m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Brassey, Sir Leonard Churchman, Sir Arthur C.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T Brittain, Sir Harry Cobb, Sir Cyril
Ainsworth, Major Charles Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Albery, Irving James Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Buchan, John Conway, Sir W. Martin
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Buckingham, Sir H. Cooper, A. Duff
Apsley, Lord Bullock, Captain M. Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Burman, J. B. Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Astor, Viscountess Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Balniel, Lord Butler, Sir Geoffrey Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Butt, Sir Alfred Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Curzon, Captain Viscount
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Caine, Gordon Hall Dalkeith, Earl of
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Campbell, E. T. Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.
Bennett, A. J. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)
Berry, Sir George Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)
Betterton, Henry B. Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Davies, Dr. Vernon
Blundell, F. N. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Dean, Arthur Wellesley
Boothby, R. J. G. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Chapman, Sir S. Drewe, C.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Chilcott, Sir Warden Eden, Captain Anthony
Braithwaite, Major A. N. Christie, J. A. Ellis, R. G.
Brass, Captain W. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Eiveden, Viscount

interests of the consumers to be considered. The Committee will no doubt agree that if there is one set of duties which should come under annual review it is the series of duties imposed in time of war purely for war purposes. That is why we move this Amendment. A great deal of money is involved. These duties before the War brought in £360,000; according to the last return, that is the year before last, they brought in £1,290,000, and the amount is now about £1,344,000. We consider that our argument is quite sound and, although it is to the interests of the traders not to have great upsets each year, it is to the interests of the consumers to see that before a permanent basis of taxation is reached every single one of these irritating duties, most of which are indirect duties and come out of the purchasing power of the people, is brought under annual review. The Match Tax, which was imposed purely for war purposes, was never discussed from 1915 until this year. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich on the general point, but, in regard to these war duties, I think we are on firm ground in asking that before a permanent basis is reached they shall be brought under annual review, and shall not be missed in the discussions which are occasioned by the new Budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 249; Noes, 125.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Hutchison, G. A Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford)
Everard, W. Lindsay Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Fairfax, Captain J. G. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Salmon, Major I.
Falle, Sir Bertram G. Jacob, A. E. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Fermoy, Lord James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Sandeman, N. Stewart
Fielden, E. B. Jephcott, A. R. Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Finburgh, S. Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Sanderson, Sir Frank
Ford, Sir P. J. Kindersley, Major Guy M. Sandon, Lord
Forestier-Walker, Sir L. King Commodore Henry Douglas Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Foster, Sir Harry S. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Savery, S. S.
Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Knox, Sir Alfred Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie
Fraser, Captain Ian Lamb, J. Q. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Shepperson, E. W.
Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Ganzonl, Sir John Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst.)
Gates, Percy Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Skelton, A. N.
Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Long, Major Eric Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Looker, Herbert William Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Glyn, Major R. G. C. Lowe, Sir Francis William Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Goff, Sir Park Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Gower, Sir Robert Lumley, L. R. Sprot, Sir Alexander
Grace, John Lynn, Sir Robert J. Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Greene, W. P. Crawford McLean, Major A. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w,E) Macmillan, Captain H. Styles, Captain H. W.
Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Grotrian, H. Brent Makins, Brigadler-General E. Tasker, R. Inigo.
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Malone, Major P. B. Templeton, W. P.
Gunston, Captain D. W. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Margesson, Captain D. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Harrison, G. J. C. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Hartington, Marquess of Meyer, Sir Frank Tinne, J. A.
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Tryon. Rt. Hon. George Clement
Haslam, Henry C Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Hawke, John Anthony Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Wallace, Captain D. E.
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M Moreing, Captain A. H. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Murchison, Sir Kenneth Warner, Brinadier-General W. W.
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Nelson, Sir Frank Warrender, Sir Victor
Henn, Sir Sydney H. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Hills, Major John Waller Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'l'd.) Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Hilton, Cecil Oman, Sir Charles William C. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Penny, Frederick George Wells, S. R.
Hogg, Rt- Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy Perkins, Colonel E. K. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Holt, Captain H. P Perring, Sir William George Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Pownall, Sir Assheton Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl
Hopkins, J. W. W. Preston, William Wise, Sir Fredric
Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Price, Major C. W. M Withers, John James
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Radford, E. A. Womersley, W. J.
Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Raine, Sir Walter Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Colonel C. K. Ramsden, E. Wood, Sir S. Hill-(High Peak)
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Rawson, Sir Cooper Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whlteh'n) Reid, D. D. (County Down) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich)
Hume, Sir G. H. Rentoul, G. S.
Huntingfield, Lord Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Hurst, Gerald B. Rice, Sir Frederick Major Sir George Hennessy and Major Cope.
NOES.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Dalton, Hugh Grundy, T. W.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Baker, Walter Day, Colonel Harry Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Dennison, R. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Barnes, A. Duckworth, John Hardie, George D.
Batey, Joseph Dunnico, H. Harney, E. A.
Bondfield, Margaret Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Harris, Percy A.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Hayday, Arthur
Briant, Frank England, Colonel A. Hayes, John Henry
Broad, F. A. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer. ) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)
Brown, Ernest(Leith) Forrest, W. Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Gardner, J. P. Hirst, G. H.
Buxton, Rt Hon. Noel Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Charleton, H. C. Gibbins, Joseph Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)
Clowes, S. Gillett, George M. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Cluse, W. S. Gosling, Harry John, William (Rhondda, West)
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)
Connolly, M. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Slivertown)
Crawfurd, H. E. Groves, T. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Kelly, W. T. Robinson, W. C. (Yorks,W. R., Elland) Thurtle, Ernest
Kennedy, T. Rose, Frank H. Townend, A. E.
Kirkwood, D. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Viant, S. P.
Lansbury, George Scrymgeour, E. Wallhead, Richard C.
Lawrence, Susan Scurr, John Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhonnda)
Lee, F. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Lindley, F. W. Shiels, Dr. Drummond Wellock, Wilfred
Lunn, William Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Welsh, J. C.
Mackinder, W. Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Whiteley, W.
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Smillie, Robert Wiggins, William Martin
March, S. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Montague, Frederick Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Williams, David (Swansea, E.)
Mosley, Oswald Snell, Harry Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)
Murnin, H. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Naylor, T. E. Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Palin, John Henry Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles Windsor, Walter
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Stamford, T. W. Wright, W.
Ponsonby, Arthur Stephen, Campbell Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Potts, John S. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Rlley, Ben Strauss, E. A. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Ritson, J. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Sir Robert Hutchison and Mr. Fenby.
Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Division No. 217.] AYES. [5. 59 p. m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Cobb, Sir Cyril Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John
Ainsworth, Major Charles Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Grotrian, H. Brent
Albery, Irving James Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Gunston, Captain D. W.
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Conway, Sir W. Martin Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Cooper, A. Duff Harrison, G. J. C.
Apsley, Lord Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Hartington, Marquess of
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Astor, Viscountess Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Haslam, Henry C.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Hawke, John Anthony
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Balniel, Lord Curzon, Captain Viscount Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Dalkeith, Earl of Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Davies, Sir Thomas (Clrencester) Hills, Major John Waller
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Davies, Dr. Vernon Hilton, Cecil
Bennett, A. J. Dean Arthur Wellesley Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G
Berry, Sir George Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. H. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Betterton, Henry B. Drewe, C. Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy
Blundell, F. N. Eden Captain Anthony Holt, Captain H. P.
Boothby, H. J. G. Ellis, R. G. Hope Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Elveden, Viscount Hope, Sir Harry(Forfar)
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) Hopkins, J. W. W.
Braithwaite, Major A. N. Everard W. Lindsay Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)
Brass, Captain W. Fairfax, Captain J. G. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Brassey, Sir Leonard Falle, Sir Bertram G. Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.
Brittain, Sir Harry Fermoy, Lord Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Fielden, E. B. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Finburgh, S. Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Ford, Sir, P. J. Hume, Sir G. H.
Buchan, John Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Huntingfield, Lord
Buckingham, Sir H. Foster, Sir Harry S. Hurd, Percy A.
Bull, Bt. Hon. Sir William James Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Hurst Gerald B.
Bullock, Captain M. Fraser, Captain Ian Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Mldl'n & P'bl'S)
Burman, J. B. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Inskip Sir Thomas Walker H.
Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Butler, Sir Geoffrey Ganzonl, Sir John Jacob, A. E.
Butt, Sir Alfred Gates, Percy James, Lieut. -Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Gault. Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Jephcott, A. R.
Caine, Gordon Hall Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Campbell, E. T. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Kindersley, Major G. M.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Glyn, Major R. G. C. King, Commodore Henry Douglas
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) Goff Sir Park Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Gower, Sir Robert Knox, Sir Alfred
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Grace, John Lamb, J. Q.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Chapman, Sir S. Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Chilcott, Sir Warden Greene, W. P. Crawford Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Christie, J. A. Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E.) Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Long, Major Eric

The Committee divided: Ayes, 258, Noes, 123.

Looker, Herbert William Radford, E. A. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Lougher, Lewis Raine, Sir Walter Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Lowe, Sir Francis William Ramsden, E. Tasker, R. Inigo.
Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Rawson, Sir Cooper Templeton, W. P.
Lumley, L. R. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Lynn, Sir R. J. Rentoul, G. S. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Rice, Sir Frederick Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
McLean, Major A. Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Tinne, J. A.
Macmllian, Captain H. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Salmon, Major I. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Makins, Brigadier-General E. Sandeman, N. Stewart Wallace, Captain D. E.
Malone, Major P. B. Sanders, Sir Robert A. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Sanderson, Sir Frank Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Sandon, Lord Warrender, Sir Victor
Meyer, Sir Frank Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Savery, S. S. Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Wells, S. R.
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Shepperson, E. W. Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Murchison, Sir Kenneth Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast) Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Nelson, Sir Frank Skelton, A. N. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.) Smith-Carington, Neville W. Wise, Sir Fredric
Oman, Sir Charles William C. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Withers, John James
Penny, Frederick George Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Womersley, W. J.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Sprot, Sir Alexander Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Perkins, Colonel E. K. Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Wood, Sir S. Hill-(High Peak)
Perring, Sir William George Steel, Major Samuel Strang Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich)
Preston, William Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Price, Major C. W. M. Styles, Captain H. W. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Major Cope and Captain Margesson.
NOES.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Scurr, John
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hardie, George D. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Baker, Walter Harris, Percy A. Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hayday, Arthur Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Barnes, A. Hayes, John Henry Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Batey, Joseph Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Bondfield, Margaret Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Smillie, Robert
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hirst, G. H. Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Briant, Frank Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Broad, F. A. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Snell, Harry
Brown, Ernest (Leith) John, William (Rhondda, West) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
Charleton, H. C. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Slivertown) Stamford, T. W.
Cluse, W. S. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Stephen, Campbell
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Kelly, W. T. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Connolly, M. Kennedy, T. Strauss, E. A.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Kirkwood, D. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Crawfurd, H. E. Lansbury, George Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Dalton, Hugh Lawrence, Susan Thurtle, Ernest
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lee, F. Townend, A. E.
Day, Colonel Harry Lindley, F. W. Viant, S. P.
Dennison, R. Lunn, William Wallhead, Richard C.
Duckworth, John Mackinder, W. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Dunnico, H Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) March, S. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Montague, Frederick Wellock, Wilfred
England, Colonel A. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Welsh, J. C.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Mosley, Oswald Whiteley, W.
Forrest, W. Murnin, H. Wiggins, William Martin
Gardner, J. P. Naylor, T. E. Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Palin, John Henry Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Gibbins, Joseph Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Gillett, George M. Ponsonby, Arthur Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)
Gosling, Harry Potts, John S. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Rlley, Ben Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Ritson, J. Windsor, Walter
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Wright, W.
Groves, T. Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grundy, T. W. Rose, Frank H.
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Scrymgeour, E. Sir Robert Hutchison and Mr. Fenby.