§
A kindly act by the crew of the Buckie steam drifter 'Available' enabled the crew of the sailing boat 'Choice' to sell their herring catch for £20 when a few hours' delay would have made the fish valueless. The 'Choice' was becalmed for 12 hours before the 'Available' towed her into port before she herself went fishing.
§ That shows that there is another relation between the trawler and the inshore man which appears to be out of the perspective of those who discuss the condition of the fishing industry. I hope these points will be borne in mind by the Secretary of State for Scotland.
§ Mr. KIRKWOODWhen the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) intervened in this Debate, he apologised for doing so, and well he might. We Socialists, and more particularly those from the West of Scotland, know quite well why he has taken part in this Debate. We know that the right hon. Gentleman and the Liberal party are closely watching the part we are playing in Scotland as far as their seats are concerned. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs intervened in this Debate in order to try and hoodwink my fellow-countrymen once more. The right hon. Gentleman said that my hon. Friend the Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) might have told the truth when he was speaking in this Debate. Why did the right hon. Gentleman not speak the truth about the promises which he made to these men some time ago? It is no good the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs trying to hoodwink the fishermen again, and he will not be allowed to do so as long as I am in this House. The right hon. Gentleman when he was returned in 1914 said:
Send us back, and we who have won the War will win the great peace. We are going to make this land"—he was referring to Scotland—a land fit for heroes to live in.The right hon. Gentleman had four years in which to do that, and I leave the fishermen themselves to judge whether he 502 has made this country a land fit for heroes to live in. This country has always been fit for heroes to live in, and it did not require a Welsh wizard to tell us that. The right hon. Gentleman has made it a land in which only heroes can live. It is no good the right hon. Gentleman saying that he is going to do this and that. What did he do when he had the opportunity after being returned on the coupon ticket with a powerful majority? He did nothing at all.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe hon. Gentleman must recollect that the Secretary of State for Scotland is not responsible for the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George).
§ Mr. KIRKWOODI told the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs that he had a brass face to stand up and say what he did say. Tonight, the right hon. Gentleman made his speech, and then left the House, and this is not the first time he has done it, although I told him that I was going to reply to his speech. The hon. and learned Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten) has also made his speech and left the House. He stated that the reason why Russia is not purchasing herrings from Scotland is because of the action of the Soviet Government. I would like the hon. and learned Member to read the views of the late Member for Argyll (Sir W. Sutherland) who was private secretary to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs and who in giving his evidence before the Food Commission said:
The Loch Fyne fishermen got a penny a dozen for herrings, and those self-came herrings were sold at from 2d. to 3d. each.That is not in Russia. That is what is being done by the middlemen who are represented to-day by the Liberal party. The hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) is pledged to support Home Rule for Scotland. Yesterday he got an opportunity of supporting his expressed views, but he went into the Lobby and voted with the Government. I will now come back to the question of herrings and the deplorable situation in which my fellow-countrymen find themselves. I do not apologise for defending the fishermen of my own country. I am ready to defend my countrymen against all others. I stand for my country first. I am not in 503 favour of Home Rule for India, Egypt, and everywhere else but Scotland. I am in favour of Home Rule for Scotland first and for other countries afterwards. All those who have taken part in this Debate to-day have paid a great tribute to the outstanding qualities of these fishermen, but what do we find when we go among them? We see a hardy, intelligent race whose prospects have been ruined, not by Russians or Germans, but by the conditions imposed upon them by the Tory Government. You, Sir, are responsible at the moment. I told you, when you were made Secretary of State—
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe hon. Member's remarks had better be addressed to me.
§ Mr. KIRKWOODWell, Captain FitzRoy, when the Secretary for Scotland was made Secretary of State—he is the first Secretary for Scotland to be made Secretary of State—I told him, standing here in this House, that greater honour brought greater responsibility, and that, if he was going to be worthy of being a great Secretary of State for Scotland—we have never had one—he had the opportunity now of being the first Secretary of State for Scotland to do something for these outstanding men. Hon. Members have pointed out how they fought the submarines in the North Sea, the most difficult task that had to be done during the War. What do we now find in the Island of Lewis, which I visited some time ago? There were 1,200 men who never returned to that island, who gave their all, and their dependants are left stricken. No one gives them any assistance. The trawlers' representative, again, is absent, the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Womersley). They make their speeches and fly. They ruined the fishing grounds around the Island of Lewis, which were teeming with fish, and where the people were practically comfortable before the War. Now, when you go there, the schoolmaster can point out to you the children dying before his eyes, living on potatoes three times a day, and not very good at that.
These are facts that are known to the Secretary of State for Scotland, and, surely, I have a right to a little latitude from you, Captain FitzRoy. The right hon. Gentleman cannot deny that those 504 are the conditions that prevail. Not only that, but when they came back—and this nice, kind, generous Member for Carnarvon Boroughs is responsible for this—what did they find? Every man, from 16 years of age to 60 volunteered for service. They believed that the Germans were the enemies of their country, and that they had a right to go and volunteer to defend their native land. If the Germans had won the War, not only the fishermen in this country, but the miners and the engineers in this country, would have been better off. Those are the conditions that prevail at the moment. Do you think you are going to get away with it all the time? No fear! You are going to get the truth, no matter what it costs me. As I have said, these men, from 16 years of age to 65, volunteered for service; there were no men for six years to look after their gear, and when they returned they found their boats and gear destroyed.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs says that they were given a million, but a million was a bagatelle; it was no use, because the men in the Island of Lewis caught nothing—absolutely nothing. They found nothing but starvation staring them in the face. Then along came Lord Leverhulme, to organise a great canning factory that he was going to put down at Stornoway. He was going to take them away off their crofts to take them from their fishing, and industrialise them—to have them running at the call of a whistle blowing in the morning and again in the evening. But the Highlandmen said "No." They value their liberty, and are prepared to pay the price for liberty—eternal vigilance. They would not give up their liberty, they would not go into the canning factory, and so Lord Leverhulme, with all his organising abilities, was crushed against that wall of Scottish independence that prefers starvation rather than submission to industrialism. Lord Leverhulme and Company, therefore went to the wall But what is before the men now? Absolutely nothing but starvation. In come the trawlers—in past the three-mile limit. I put it to the Secretary for Scotland that what should be done is to provide, not a cruiser, but a seaplane. The fishermen told us, when we visited them in the Island of Lewis, that when they went out in a small boat 505 to get the number of the trawler, the people on the trawler threw big stones at them, so as to knock the bottom out of the boat and sink them. I asked them, "What do you do when they do that? They said, "What can we do?" I said, "Buy a gun and shoot them." You can take it from me that all history goes to show that the only thing the ruling class in this country understand is when they get a rifle levelled at their heads Do you think the Irish would have stood by and seen this—
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThis is getting too far away from the Vote. It is a Fishery Vote.
§ Mr. KIRKWOODI am dealing with the Fishery Vote, and am saying that, if the Irish had been here fighting for their rights there would be more heard about it; and it is our duty to put up as stiff a fight as we possibly can for our people. The Irish were forced to take drastic measures, and, if our people are not going to get a fair deal, I am prepared to go out to my folk and advocate that they take drastic measures, too. We have evidence of it. What about the men in Scaristaveg, the five crofters that were arrested? What did the Secretary of State for Scotland tell me? That they never would get land, never as long as he was Secretary of State for Scotland. What happened, because we held them by the throat? The men went back, they got land, and they are on the land in spite of the Secretary of State for Scotland. The fishermen all round Scotland are watching what is going on here to-day. They know perfectly well that they have never got a square deal. They made immense sacrifices on behalf of their native land. The people in this industry, whom you are all praising and saying are such good men, are dependent on Russia. There is no doubt about that; no one can deny the fact that 75 per cent. of the export of herrings from this country went direct to Russia; and now this Government goes out of its way to quarrel with the best customers that these men had, and tells them to clear out. Why have they to clear out? Because, the Government say, the Russians are bad men, wild men with great, big, black beards and their hands dirty with blood. Fancy Churchill and Birkenhead—
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe question of relations with Russia does not arise on this Vote.
§ Mr. KIRKWOODI do not think I shall have any difficulty in proving that it is due to the action of this Government. It is a silly, stupid Government, I know. I know there are some very able men in it; I do not deny that for a moment; but of all the duds! Lloyd George is right in some things and he said they were a lot of kitchenmaids, because it was the action of a kitchenmaid to quarrel with the best customer that these fishermen had. These fishermen are absolutely essential to the welfare of Britain. It is perfectly true what my comrade Maxton said—I mean the hon. Member for Bridgeton. He said what is perfectly true, that all our staple and most important industries are on the decline; and that is most particularly true regarding Scotland. Scotland is on the decline. There is no denying the fact. There are 24;000 fewer fishermen this year than there were before the War. Can the Secretary of State name one other industry that is on the increase? I can—gamekeepers. In the last census, there was an increase of 8,000. Our mining industry is helplessly bleeding, metaphorically speaking, at the employers' feet through the action of this vicious, vile Government. Take the agricultural industry.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe hon. Member cannot roam over every industry. We are discussing the fishing industry.
§ Mr. KIRKWOODThese industries are all linked with one another. The fishermen of the island of Lewis have crofts. They are not entirely dependent on the sea. They also till the soil. The hon. Member for Bridgeton talked about the fishing industry, agriculture, mining and engineering—my own trade. The chief industries of my native land are on the down grade, and have been ever since the Tory Government came into power. These are my last words to my fellow-countrymen. "I do not care about the House of Commons. Have nothing to do with the Tory party. Let them work as they have never worked before to defeat them. And, whatever they do, let them have nothing to do with the Liberal party, who, in my opinion, are a hundred times worse." We know what 507 the Tories are, and we know what to expect from them, but the Liberal party are milk and water. They are neither fish nor flesh nor anything else.
§ Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £44,976, be granted for the said Service."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 90; Noes, 158.
509| Division No. 277.] | AYES. | [8. 40 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Amman, Charles George | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bllston) | Hayday, Arthur | Scurr, John |
| Baker, Walter | Hirst, G, H. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Batey, Joseph | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Kelly, W. T. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Kirkwood, D. | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhiths) |
| Briant, Frank | Lansbury, George | Smith, H. B. Lees-(Keighley) |
| Broad, F. A. | Lawrence, Susan | Snell, Harry |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Lee, F. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Livingstone, A. M. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Buchanan, G. | Lowth, T. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox] |
| Charleton, H. C. | Lunn, William | Strauss, E. A. |
| Clowes, S. | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Sutton, J. E. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Mackinder, W. | Thomson, Treveiyan (Middlesbro., W.) |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | MacLaren, Andrew | Thorne, G. H. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Compton, Joseph | Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Maxton, James | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Dalton, Hugh | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Murnin, H. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Dennison, R. | Naylor, T. E. | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Edge, Sir William | Paling, W. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Whiteley, W. |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Wllkinson, Ellen C. |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Ponsonby, Arthur | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd | Potts, John S. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) |
| Gillett, George M. | Purcell, A. A. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Riley, Ben | |
| Grundy, T. W. | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks. W. R., Elland) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Sir Robert Hutchison and Mr. Fenby. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Cope, Major William | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Couper, J. B. | Henderson. Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) |
| Albery, Irving James | Courtauld, Major J. S. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Hopkinsor, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool. W. Derby) | Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Hume, Sir G. H. |
| Ballour, George (Hampstead) | Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Hurst, Gerald B. |
| Balniel, Lord | Dalkeith, Earl of | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip |
| Bennett, A. J. | Davies, Dr. Vernon | Little, Dr. E. Graham |
| Berrtinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Dear, Arthur Wellesley | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) |
| Bethel, A. | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Looker, Herbert William |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Luce, Major-Gen, Sir Richard Harman |
| Blundell, F. N. | Ellis, R. G. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Elveden, Viscount | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) | Macmillan, Captain H. |
| Brlscoe, Richard George | Everard, W. Lindsay | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Fielden, E. B. | Macquisten, F. A. |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Ford, Sir P. J. | MacRobert, Alexander M. |
| Burman, J. B. | Forestler-Walker, Sir L | Malone, Major P. B. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Margesson, Captain D. |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Fraser, Captain Ian | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- |
| Campbell, E. T. | Fremantle, Lieut. -Colonel Francis E. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) |
| Cassels, J. D. | Ganzoni, Sir John | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) |
| Chadwick Sir Robert Burton | Gates, Percy | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Gllmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Moore Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) |
| Christie, J. A. | Goff, Sir Park | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Grace, John | Murchison, Sir Kenneth |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Clayton, G. C. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Grotrian, H. Brent | Pennefather, Sir John |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Colfax, Major Wm. Phillips | Harland, A. | Perring, Sir William George |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Harrison, G. J. C. | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) |
| Preston William | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple- |
| Price Major C. W. M. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Ramsden, E. | Streatfelid, Captain S. R. | Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) |
| Remer J. R. | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Roberts E. H. G. (Flint) | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford) | Tinne, J. A. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Sandeman, N. Stewart | Tltchfield, Major the Marquess of | Wood, E. (Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Sanders Sir Robert A. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich W.) |
| Sanderson Sir Frank | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Savory S. S. | Waddington, R. | Wragg, Herbert |
| Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen'sUniv.,Belfast) | Ward, Lt.-Col A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) | |
| Skelton, A. N. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Slaney, Major P. Kenyon | Watts, Dr. T. | Captain Viscount Curzon and Mr. |
| Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) | Wells, S. R. | Penny. |
Question put, and agreed to.