HC Deb 19 July 1927 vol 209 cc358-73

I beg to move, in page 32, line 13, after the word "individual," to insert the words who in the opinion of the surveyor would be liable to be charged at a rate or rates exceeding the standard rate and. We have just been discussing a Clause which obviously affects only a very limited number of people. But no one will suggest, if I read Clause 42 aright, that it does not touch an enormous number of people, many of whom are very small Income Tax payers. Its object is to bring within an Act which has so far applied only to Super-taxpayers the whole body of Income Tax payers, and the scope of my series of Amendments is to repel that encroachment on the work Of local Assessors and Commissioners which seems to be the main object of the Clause. As far as my recollection goes, there was practically no discussion at all of this exceedingly important Clause during the Committee stage. The Clauses in Part III of the Bill are put forward in the supposed interest of simplification and economy. I should be the very last person to object to any proposal that made for economy or simplification, but I am not prepared to accept even a supposed simplification at the expense of the sense of security enjoyed by the general taxpayers of the country. The whole theory of our Income Tax law is that the taxpayers shall assess themselves, with the help of local Boards of Commissioners and local Assessors, who approach their job as a rule not primarily from the point of view of Revenue officials but rather from the point of view of the general body of the taxpayers. It will hardly be denied that for a good many years past it has been the settled and deliberate policy of the Revenue officials to get rid of the whole work of the local Assessors and bring the work of assessment and collection of Income Tax into the hands of the Surveyors or Inspectors and the Special Commissioners of Income Tax. I have not a word to say against the way in which either the Surveyors or the Special Commissioners do their work. I have always found them perform a very disagreeable duty both with courtesy and consideration for the taxpayers. I have not a word to say against the way in which their duties are performed, but I do venture to put it to the House that in this Clause we have an exceedingly important principle of Income Tax administration at stake.

The principal point at issue is this: Whether the payer of Income Tax is to be assessed and whether his tax is to be collected under the direction of local bodies of Commissioners—taxpayers like himself—or under the direction of a Government Department who are ultimately to receive the taxes. Most of the Members of this House will remember a very ill-fated Measure which was brought forward in the year 1921. It was a Bill known as the Revenue Bill, and it was proposed to amend the law relating to Customs and Inland Revenue, including Excise and the National Debt, and for other purposes connected with finance. But the central point of this Bill was contained in Clause 7 under the head of administration. I will venture to read that Clause to the House. It runs thus, and the House will at once perceive why I emphasiee this point: The office of assessor shall cease to exist and all general and particular notices directed by the Income Tax Acts to be given by the assessor requiring persons to make the returns shall be given by the surveyor within such time and in such manner as the Commissioners of Inland Revenue direct, and any such return shall be delivered to the Surveyor. I am going to suggest that the Clause which is under the consideration of the House to-night is in reality an attempt —I will not use the offensive term, a camouflaged attempt—but it is an attempt to get by a side wind what it was not able to obtain by the Revenue Bill of 1921. Those hon. Members who were Members of the House at that time will, I am sure, remember the storm of opposition with which the Revenue Bill of 1921 was greeted, and, as a matter of fact, it did not even get to the stage of a Second Reading. The reason for the indignation which was aroused by that Bill, and which, I think, would have been aroused by this Clause if it was clearly understood, was admirably put by an authority to which at one period of his career, at any rate, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, would, I think, have paid considerable deference: For the small taxpayer, for about 90 per cent. of the taxpayers, it"— meaning the Revenue Bill of 1921— is a serious business. It means that, instead of the personal touch of the local Commissioners, he will come in contact with the soulless machinery of a Government Department. The local assessor has been the small taxpayers' friend. That is really the case I am putting to the House to-night. Clause 42 really represents, as I have suggested, a subtle attempt to do by stealth what the Bill of 1921 attempted to do nakedly and unashamed. The first objection which I urge to this Clause is that it really supersedes, or will in the long run supersede, the method of tax collection and assessment with which we are familiar and which is as popular as any method of tax collection is ever likely to be. I am now speaking on behalf of the small taxpayers and they represent a very large proportion of Income Taxpayers in this country; and they know that the assessor is a real friend to the small taxpayer and is regarded by them as a person who will help them in the many difficulties and ambiguities which they discover in Finance Bills.

There is a further point in this Clause to which I want to draw the attention of the House, and it is that this Clause as it is now drawn, will require not merely from the large taxpayers, but from all taxpayers, a full statement of their income. No such demand has ever been made upon them before except when claims for exemption or allowances have been made. My main reason for moving this series of Amendments is because it seems to me that the Clause as drawn represents a subtle attempt to do away with the General Commissioners and the local assessors as the assessing and collecting authorities. It will be observed that, besides my own series of Amendments, there is another series standing in the names of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Oxford (Captain Bourne) and other hon. Members, which go much further than my suggestion, and I want to make an appeal to my right hon. Friend that lie will give very serious consideration, and, I hope, sympathetic consideration, to the very modest Amendments which I am asking him to accept. If my Amendment, be accepted, the Clause will be made to apply only to the large payers of Income Tax and Surtax. The small taxpayers, on whose behalf I am attempting to move this Amendment, will be released from the operation of this Clause, and on that ground I beg to move.


I beg to second the Amendment.

I would like to point out to hon. Gentlemen opposite, who appear to treat this matter with a certain amount of frivolity, that it is a very serious burden for those who have to bear it. There are 4,000,000 Income Tax payers, and there are less than 100,000 Super-tax payers. This Clause, without the proposed Amendments, will hang up the whole of these 4,000,000 Income Tax payers for the sake of the convenience of the 96,000 Super-tax payers. None of them need make double returns. Why does the Chancellor of the Exchequer want simplification and single returns? Why does he not put them all, both Income Tax and Surtax payers, through the assessor? That is the true simplification. There has been an outcry for some years about the duplication of offices, and the Inland Revenue Department have seized upon that to get the whole thing into the hands of the Government officials. This is not the first occasion on which they have tried it. This is the ninth time since 1842 that they have tried to get hold of the small taxpayer and get him into the hands of the officials. They started in 1883, and again and again they have tried it. It is a very serious matter for the small taxpayer.

The theory of taxation is that the taxpayers meet and see what each other has to pay. That is done by the local commissioners, assisted by the surveyor, and they never come into contact with the Government officials at all. They are not dealing with what, with all respect, I might call a soulless tax gatherer; they are dealing with a number of people who know that they have to make up a certain sum amongst themselves, and they adjust it as nearly as possible. That is the only thing that has made Income Tax tolerable. I know the Chancellor of the Exchequer will tell us what the Royal Commission on Income Tax reported, but he knows well enough that the Royal Commission was permeated by the official element, and that it reported entirely on the lines suggested by the Inland Revenue officials. Local assessors and commissioners scattered over the country had no proper opportunity of putting their views forward, and their views were never considered; it was merely the machine that was considered. I will give a case which shows what goes on.

The small taxpayer has the right to a good many allowances and abatements, and it is the assesor's duty to help the small taxpayer to get those allowances and abatements. It is no part of the surveyor's duty to do that, and he never does it, but the assessor does it. In one town the assessors were so faithful, realising that it was their duty to stand by the small taxpayer and see that he got what Parliament allowed him, that there were so many of these claims for allowances and abatements that the Inland Revenue Department actually sent down one of their officials to give the assessors a wigging and tell them to stop it. That is a very serious matter, but that is what was actually done, and I could produce one of the assessors here who was subjected to this influence. He told the surveyor, like a man, that he would obey the law, and that the surveyor could go about his business, for he would pay no attention to him. That shows perfectly plainly the difference of point of view between the mere tax collector and the assessor, who has to adjust the burden of taxation amongst the different people who are bound to pay it. In fact, if I might use a scriptural analogy, the surveyor is Zaccheus before he repents and the assessor is Zaccheus after he has repented.

That is the real position, and I object altogether to this proposal to take away from the small taxpayer the enormous benefits he has always had under the present procedure. It will not save any money, and there is no simplification in it at all. The taxpayers will have to pay the cost of the 150 collectors appointed by the Board of Inland Revenue, at a cost of £277 15s. per collector, while the cost of the assessors appointed by the local Commissioners is £118 a year, rather less than half. And they are local people who know all the circumstances and every detail about the individual taxpayer, which the surveyor does not know. If there is to be a simplification of the present system, it should be to remit the whole of this business to the assessors and leave the collectors to their proper function, which is to supervise the assessment, and, if they are satisfied that it is wrong, make their appeal to the Com- Missioners.The whole purpose of this Clause is to ultimately eliminate the assessors altogether. They may be kept on for a time in order to do the work of the collectors, but as they go out one by one the inevitable effect will be that instead of there being any buffer between the people and the Government, we shall get practically to the oriental position, that the collector will be nothing but a tax collector, squeezing the last ounce out of the individual taxpayer and never giving the small taxpayer any counsel, or help or assistance, as to the various allowances which are granted him by Parliament. It will result in intolerable hardship on the small taxpayer. He cannot afford to pay accountants and lawyers to fight his case. The Super-tax payer can afford to do this. He can go to the surveyor. He walks up to him as an equal, and faces him. He can go to him openly, but the small taxpayer will never see the surveyor. The only person he will see is some clerk; that is all that will happen. If the Government allow this Clause to go through and the small taxpayers are subjected to the results which will inevitably accrue from it, there will be a day of reckoning.


I hope the House has not been unduly alarmed by the two formidable orations to which we have just listened. There is no deep plot contained within the ambit of this Clause. There is no subtle scheme on the part of Somerset House to lay its claws upon the vitals of the poorest taxpayers of the country. There is no truth in the suggestion that this Clause has been smuggled through in the small hours of the morning without any competent person being present to discuss it. I believe this matter passed swiftly through the House because those most competent—


I was not able to be present when this Clause was considered.


If the hon. and learned Member had not strayed so far from his invariable habit of the strictest attention to the duties of the House, and was not present when the Amendment came on, he is not in a position to blame those hon. Members who carried on the laborious duties as rapidly as possible. At any rate, the hon. Member for Guildford (Sir H. Buckingham) who is head of the Income Taxpayers' Society was present in the House at the time and, considering how very vigilant my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford is in his criticisms of matters connected with the Income Tax, and particularly how closely he is associated with the arguments on this aspect of the Income Tax, it was extremely satisfactory to me to find that he had no criticism of a hostile character to offer when this matter came up. The House was so impressed with his presence and his silence that they proceeded rapidly to accord this Clause the measure of support which, I am certain, on full consideration it will be found thoroughly to deserve. This Clause aims at relieving the taxpayer from an annoyance which he has long suffered. On every side we have been urged to simplify our Income Tax procedure, and pages of the Finance Bill are occupied with provision, which are complicated in appearance but which, in the result, will relieve the taxpayer from the continued annoyance of being served with repeated calls now from this quarter and now from that in connection with the payment of Income Tax. What is the principle of this simplification? It is the principle of one man, one return. We have heard of one man, one vote and now in another connection we have one man, one return—one return for Income Tax and Super-tax in the course of a given year. If we are to achieve that object, it is absolutely necessary that the issue of the return form shall be undertaken by an organised body of people who are subject to a single control and who cooperate with one another throughout the country and with the Special Commissioners who are entrusted with the assessment of the Super-tax.


May I point out that my Amendment leaves the question of the Super-tax payers entirely unaffected?


The Amendment of my hon. Friend cuts right across the principle of one return for Income Tax and Super-tax. It provides that there shall be one authority dealing with the returns from Super-tax payers and another dealing with the returns from Income Tax payers. Thus you would have two authorities dealing with this particular aspect and two kinds of returns instead of one. In other words, it would destroy the kind of unification and simplification which we had in mind when these Clauses were prepared. They were not framed only by officials and members of the Government. They were framed in consultation with bodies closely concerned with and representing the interests of the Income Tax payers, and they were presented to the House as, to a large extent, agreed Clauses when they were originally introduced. I was saying when my hon. Friend interrupted me, that if you are to have one return, that return must be undertaken by an organised body of people, subject to a single control and co-operating with one another throughout the country. Those conditions cannot possibly be satisfied by the parochial assessors who are the servants of some 700 different bodies of local commissioners acting for separate geographical divisions and working independently of their colleagues.

What is this work which we are taking from the assessors and giving to the inspectors? It is purely routine work, no more than being a post office in this particular matter. There must be one centre from which returns are distributed and where they are again collected, and that is the only function that is being given to the inspector which he does not perform to-day. None of the other functions of the assessors is in the slightest degree interfered with by the proposals of this Clause. Indeed, words have been introduced into the closing Sub-section of the Clause which show that none of the other functions of the assessors will be in the slightest degree impaired. My hon. Friend who moved the Amendment and my hon. Friend who seconded it told us how the small taxpayer is in the habit of going to the local assessor as to a confidential friend and ally and consulting with him upon the difficulties of filling up his Income Tax return. We have recognised the advantages of this procedure so far as to insert on the return form the address of the appropriate assessor, in order that should the taxpayer desire to have this help, counsel and guidance he will readily know the quarter where it is available. The only alteration which we are making is confined to a matter of routine; otherwise, all the functions both of the local commissioners and of their officers remain completely unimpaired by the introduction of this scheme for the simplification of the Income Tax, which, I have no hesitation in saying, complex though it looks in legal language, has commended itself to all the highest authorities versed in Income Tax problems but without connection with the administration who have been good enough to give long and careful attention to the subject.

Captain BOURNE

I very much regret that my right hon. Friend has not accepted the Amendment. The procedure under which the return is rendered to the assessors goes back to the very beginnings of our Income Tax law, and I cannot help thinking that if we are to have a simplification of the Income Tax law it would be much better to keep to the old proceeding and to send the returns to the assessor rather than to direct that they should be returned to the surveyor. There is one other point. This is a Clause to amend the Income Tax Act of 1918, and I suggest that it would be very much better if these Clauses dealing with the machinery for the collection of taxation had been introduced in a Revenue Bill rather than in the Finance Bill of the year. The object of the Finance Bill, as set out in its own Preamble, is to grant certain duties of Customs and Inland Revenue (including Excise), to alter other duties, and to amend the law relating to Customs and Inland Revenue (including Excise) and the National Debt, and to make further provision in connection with finance. A Clause which deals solely with the machinery by which those taxes are collected ought not to come into the Finance Bill, the primary object of which is to raise revenue and to make a grant to the Sovereign of the money necessary for the carrying on of the public services. I feel that it does not give the House a proper chance of discussing these Clauses, which are intricate and require a great deal of consideration from many points of view, including the point of view of how they are going to affect the taxpayer. In a Finance Bill, we necessarily have to spend a great deal of time in discussing the incidence of new taxation. That is the object of a Finance Bill, and it would be a very great improvement if in the future Clauses, which deal with the machinery of taxation and do not in themselves impose a tax but amend either a Revenue Act or the Income Tax Acts, should be introduced as a separate Measure to be dealt with by the House separately, and, if necessary, sent to a Committee upstairs.


I fear the right hon. Gentleman attached rather more importance than the House did on the last occasion to the silence of the hon. Member for Guildford (Sir H. Buckingham) and not enough to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman himself. He made a very eloquent speech in one sentence, when about One o'clock in the morning he was asked from these benches whether the Inland Revenue were taking any new powers under the Clause. His answer was short and concise in one sentence. He said, "No, there were no new powers." Since that time I am by no means as happy with that answer as I was that morning when I listened to it. The hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten) has pointed out that nine times something similar has been attempted, though previously it has been tried in other ways. The last occasion was in 1921, when the attempt was made to alter the balance between the assessor and the surveyor by a Revenue Bill. There is one great difference between a Revenue Bill and a Finance Bill. A Revenue Bill need not be passed in any year; a Finance Bill must be. It is much more serious to have a proposal of this kind, however simple it may look, in the the Finance Bill of the year rather than in a Revenue Bill. I regret the absence from the Treasury Bench to-night of one of the colleagues of the right hon. Gentleman. If I remember aright, the Member of the House who led the opposition in 1921 to a proposal not similar to this but akin to this was the right hon. Gentleman, who is at present Home Secretary and who represents Twickenham. Owing to his great eloquence and ability the proposal in the Revenue Bill of 1921 was defeated.

I would like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the system of assessing in England and Wales is the same as in Scotland. As I understand it, the attempt last time was to abolish the office of Assessor of Taxes and to require all particular notices directed by the Income Tax Acts to be given by the surveyor. This Clause does nothing of the kind. What it does do in line 34 is to require the great bulk of the returns to be made to the surveyor and not to the assessor. I quite expect to see him in a year, or perhaps in two years' time, if he will still be there, or his successor, if he is amenable to the Treasury as the right hon. Gentleman seems to be and takes a purely Treasury point of view, come down to the House and say that these assessors have no work to do, that the great mass of returns that used to be made to them since that very bad day when the Income Tax was reimposed in 1842 are no longer made to the assessors, and that there is no need to have assessors at all. It is an important point, because the surveyors are Government officials appointed by the Inland Revenue, while the assessors are Government officials appointed, not by the Inland Revenue, but by the local Commissioners, of whom there are 700 bodies throughout Great Britain. I would ask the House to pay careful attention to what has been done under this Clause, because it seems to me that the Inland Revenue are doing in the Finance Bill and by subterfuge what they failed nine times previously to do in Revenue Bills and what they failed as recently as 1921 to do in the Revenue Bill of that year.

The assessors have very important duties. It is their duty to send out the notices requiring returns, to put on the church doors notices, to certify the assessments and to estimate a man's income if he does not make any return; a very important duty, and a duty which small Income Tax payers will need to watch very carefully before they permit it to go altogether out of the hands of the assessors and into the hands of people appointed by and controlled by the Inland Revenue, the central authority. It is their duty to deliver the particulars of the certified taxes to the knowledge of the Inland Revenue. It is also their duty to say if they think the assessments are inaccurate. In regard to Scotland, I understand the system is different. In the great majority of cases the assessor of taxes is a Government official appointed by the local commissioners and not by the Inland Revenue, and he is also the surveyor of taxes. That is the point of distinction between Scotland and England and Wales. The most important thing in this connection is that he is not the servant of the Inland Revenue but the servant of the local commissioners.

The right hon. Gentleman will be wise not to pass the Clause in its present form and not to refuse the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for York (Sir J. Marriott). I do not feel inclined to agree to the passage of the Clause as it stands. The right hon. Gentleman, to use his own phrase, has deployed his troops in the Finance Bill of the year by a flank attack, but I prefer the frank and avowed attempt of 1921 and of previous years to take the post of assessor away by a direct frontal attack. I should like to have an assurance from the Government that there is no real desire on the part of the Treasury to take power away from the assessors, because they are regarded by the smaller taxpayers, as the hon. and learned Member for Argyll has said, as friends of the small taxpayer. Since there are only 95,000 Super-tax payers and more than 4,000,000 Income Tax payers, it is fitting, even at eleven o'clock at night, to give a little more attention to this point before we agree to the Clause in its present form.

11.0 p.m.


It is not often that I have a word to say in support of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I am rather disappointed with the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown), because he and his party have been claiming to be the apostles of economy throughout the country. I am also disappointed with the hon. Member for York (Sir J. Marriott), the hon. and gallant Member for Oxford (Captain Bourne) and the hon. and learned Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten), because I believe this proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is a real proposal of economy. For that reason, I give him my wholehearted support. What happens to any taxpayer, whether big or small, as soon as his return goes to the inspector of taxes? He may go to the assessor of taxes, but before the assessor is competent to give him advice he would have to go, and before the hon. and learned Member for Argyll, the hon. Member for York, the hon. and gallant Member for Oxford or the hon. Member for Leith could give him advice, they would have to go to the inspector of taxes, who is the only man competent to give advice. That means that the inspector of taxes decides what the man is liable for in the way of taxation, and all the assessor of taxes does is to put a rubber stamp on one of the inspector of taxes reports, for which he gets paid a very large salary. I am sure the right hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham), who was a member of the Royal Commission and heard the evidence on this matter, will confirm me, when I say that it is a real economy in the public service and is a matter which I and my party ought not to oppose. I think my hon. Friends are gravely in error to-night in putting forward their Amendment.


I hope before this Clause is passed that the House will consider very carefully what they are doing. The whole basis of taxation of this country, in which there is less evasion than any country in the world, is the fact that the taxpayers have appointed their own assessors to supervise administration in this matter, and here we have a Clause which changes it, not by means of a Revenue Bill but by a Finance Bill, and takes away the power of these persons. It is all very well for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that this is only the collection of forms. What is the good of having an assessor if somebody else collects the forms on which the assessments are made? How is he to judge as to the propriety of the assessment if he has not the forms? It seems to me to be a reductio ad absurdum. It is the beginning of an insidious attack on the basis upon which taxation has been hitherto levied. We shall be told that there is no need for the assessor any more if these forms are to be sent to the surveyor. I do not see what the assessor will have to do, because he will have no documents with which to deal with these assessments. I hope the House will pause before passing this Clause.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 98; Noes, 223.

Division No. 275.] AYES. [9.24 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Elveden, Viscount MacIntyre, Ian
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. England, Colonel A. McLean, Major A.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Everard, W. Lindsay Macmillan, Captain H.
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Fairfax, Captain J. G. McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) Fall[...], Sir Bertram G. Macquisten, F. A.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Fermoy, Lord MacRobert, Alexander M.
Apsley, Lord Fielden, E. B. Malone, Major P. B.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Finburgh, S. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Ford, Sir P. J. Margesson, Captain D.
Astor, Viscountess Forrest, W. Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Atholl, Duchess of Foster, Sir Harry S. Mason, Lieut-Col. Glyn K.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Meyer, Sir Frank
Balniel, Lord Fraser, Captain Ian Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Banks, Reginald Mitchell Fremantle, Lieut-Colonel Francis E. Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Galbraith, J. F. W. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Ganzonl, Sir John Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Gates, Percy Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Bennett, A. J. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Bethel, A. Goff, Sir Park Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph
Betterton, Henry B. Grace, John Nelson, Sir Frank
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Neville, Sir Reginald J.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W Greene, W. P. Crawford Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Braithwaite, Major A. N. Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Brass, Captain W. Grotrian, H. Brent. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) Nuttall, Ellis
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Oakley, T.
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Hammersley, S. S. Perring, Sir William George
Bullock, Captain M. Harland, A. Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Burman, J. B. Harrison, G. J. C. Preston, William
Butler, Sir Geoffrey Hawke, John Anthony Price, Major C. W. M.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Radford, E. A.
Campbell, E. T. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Raine, Sir Walter
Carver, Major W. H. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Ramsden, E.
Cassels, J. D. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Rees, Sir Beddoe
Chapman, Sir S. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Remer, J. R.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Hills, Major John Waller Remnant, Sir James
Christie, J. A. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Rentoul, G. S.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Holt, Capt. H. P. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Rice, Sir Frederick
Cobb, Sir Cyril Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hume, Sir G. H. Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Colman, N. C. D. Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretlord)
Conway, Sir W. Martin Hurd, Percy A. Ropner, Major L.
Cooper, A. Duff Illfle, Sir Edward M. Rye, F. G.
Cope, Major William Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Salmon, Major I.
Courtauld, Major J. S. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Sandeman, N. Stewart
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey. Galnsbro) Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Savery, S. S.
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Kindersley, Major G. M. Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)
Dalkeith, Earl of King, Commodore Henry Douglas Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Lamb, J. Q. Shepperson, E. W.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Skelton, A. N.
Davies, Dr. Vernon Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Dean, Arthur Wellesley Long, Major Eric Smithers, Waldron
Dixey, A. C. Looker, Herbert Willlam Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Drewe, C. Lougher, Lewis Sprot, Sir Alexander
Duckworth, John Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
Edmondson, Major A. J. Lumley, L. R. Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Elliot, Major Walter E. Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Ward, Lt. -Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Warrender, Sir Victor Wise, Sir Fredric
Styles, Captain H. Walter Waterhouse, Captain Charles Withers, John James
Sugden Sir Wilfrid Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otiey) Womersley, W. J.
Tasker,R. Inigo, Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Templeton, W. P. Watts, Dr. T. Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).
Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Wheler, Major Sir Granvllle C. H. Wragg, Herbert
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) white, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple. Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich)
Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Captain Viscount Curzon and Mr. Penny.
Waddington, R. Windsor-Cllve, Lieut. -Colonel George Penny
Wallace, Captain D. E.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) Groves, T. Salter. Dr. Alfred
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Scrymgeour, E.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Scurr, John
Ammon, Charles George Hardie, George D. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Harris, Percy A. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Baker, Walter Hayday, Arthur Smillie, Robert
Barnes, A. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Batey, Joseph Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
Bondfield, Margaret Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Stamford, T. W.
Bromfield, William Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Stephen, Campbell
Bromley, J. John, William (Rhondda, West) Strauss, E. A.
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Sullivan, J.
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Sutton, J. E.
Buchanan, G. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Taylor, R. A.
Charleston, H. C. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Thomson, Trevelyan (Mlddlesbro, W.)
Clowes, S. Kelly, W. T. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Cluse, W. S Kennedy, T. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plalstow)
Compton, Joseph Lawrence, Susan Thurtle, Ernest
Connolly, M. Lawson, John James Tinker, John Joseph
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lee, F. Townend, A. E.
Crawfurd, H. E. Lunn, William Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Dalton, Hugh Mackinder, W. Viant, S. P.
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) MacLaren, Andrew Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermllne)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Maxton, James Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D, (Rhondda)
Day, Colonel Harry Montague, Frederick Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Dennison, R. Morris, R. H. Wellock, Wilfred
Duncan, C. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Westwood, J.
Dunnico, H. Murnin, H. Wiggins, William Martin
Edge, Sir William Oliver, George Harold Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Palin, John Henry Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Fenby, T. D. Paling, W. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Gardner, J. P. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Windsor, Walter
Gillett, George M. Potts, John S. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edln., Cent) Richardson, H. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Greenall, T. Ritson, J. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Robinson, W. C. (Yorks. W. R., Elland) Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Allen
Division No. 276.] AYES. [11.7 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hayday, Arthur Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Salter, Dr. Alfred
Barnes, A. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Sandeman, N. Stewart
Batey, Joseph Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Scrymgeour, E.
Beckett, John (Gateshead) Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Bromley, J. Illffe, Sir Edward M. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Sprot, sir Alexander
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) John, William (Rhondda, West) Stephen, Campbell
Buchanan, G. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Strauss, E. A.
Charleton, H. C. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Sullivan, Joseph
Clowes, S. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Sutton. J. E.
Compton, Joseph Kelly, W. T. Taylor, R. A.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Kennedy, T. Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
Crawfurd, H. E. Lawrence, Susan Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)
Daiton, Hugh Lee, F. Thorne, G. R. (Woiverhampton, E.)
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Little, Dr. E. Graham Thurtie, Ernest
Day, Colonel Harry Lunn, William Townend, A. E.
Dennison, R. Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Varley, Frank B.
Duckworth John Macklnder, W. Viant, S P.
Duncan, C. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Dunnico, H. Maxton, James Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Edge, Sir William Montague, Frederick Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Morris, R. H. Wellock, Wilfred
England, Colonel A. Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph Westwood, J.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Naylor, T. E. Whiteley, W.
Fenby, T. D. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Wiggins, William Martin
Forrest, W. Oliver, George Harold Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Greenall T. Paling, W. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Parkinson, John Allen (Wlgan) Windsor, Walter
Grenfeil, D. R. (Glamorgan) Rees, Sir Beddoe
Grotrian, H. Brent Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Groves, T. Riley, Ben Sir John Marriott and Mr.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W.Bromwich) Macquisten.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Cooper, A. Duff Harland, A.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Cope, Major William Harrison. G. J. C.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Courtauld, Major J. S. Hartington, Marquess of
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Hawke, John Anthony
Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Headiam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Ammon, Charles George Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Apsley, Lord Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Hills, Major John Waller
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Curzon, Captain Viscount Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Dalkeith, Earl of Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy
Astor, Viscountess Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Holt. Capt. H. P.
Atholl, Duchess of Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovll) Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Baker, Walter Davies, Dr. Vernon Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Balniel, Lord Dean, Arthur Wellesley Hudson, Capt, A. U. M. (Hackney, N).
Banks, Reginald Mitchell Dixey, A. C. Hudson, R. S. (Cmuberl'nd, Whlten'n)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Drewe, C. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Edmondson, Major A. J. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Betterton, Henry B. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Elliot, Major Walter E. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Braithwaite, Major A. N. Everard, W. Lindsay Kidd, J. (Linllthgow)
Brass, Captain W. Fairfax, Captain J. G. King, Commodore Henry Douglas
Brittain, Sir Harry Falle, Sir Bertram G. Lamb, J. Q.
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Fermoy, Lord Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Fielden, E. B. Lawson, John James
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) Finburgh, S. Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Ford, Sir P. J. Lindley, F. W.
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Bullock, Captain M. Foster, Sir Harry S. Long, Major Eric
Burman, J. B. Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Looker, Herbert William
Burton, Colonel H. W. Fraser, Captain Ian Lougher, Lewis
Butler, Sir Geoffrey Fremantie, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Lumley, L. R.
Caine, Gordon Hall Gates, Percy MacAndrew Major Charles Glen
Campbell, E. T. Gibbs. Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus
Carver, Major W. H. Gillett, George M. Macintyre, Ian
Cassels, J. D. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John McLean, Major A.
Chapman, Sir S. Goff, Sir Park Macmillan, Captain H.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Grace, John McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Christie, J. A. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) MacRobert, Alexander M.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edln., Cent.) Malone, Major P. B.
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Grant, Sir J. A. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Clayton, G. C. Greene, W. P. Crawford Margesson, Captain D.
Cobb, Sir Cyril Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) Mason, Lieut-Col. Glyn K.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Moles, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Colman, N. C. D. Hammersley, S. S. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Neville, Sir Reginald J. Salmon, Major I. Wallace, Captain D. E.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Sanders, Sir Robert A. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Sanderson, Sir Frank Warrender, Sir Victor
Nuttall, Ellis Sandon, Lord Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Oakley, T. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Savery, S. S. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) Watts, Dr. T.
Pennefather, Sir John Shepperson, E. W. Williams, A, M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Penny, Frederick George Skelton, A. N. Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Slaney, Major P. Kenyan Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)
Perring, Sir William George Smith-Carington, Neville W. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Smithers, Waldron Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Potts, John S. Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Preston, William Stanley, Lord (Fytde) Wise, Sir Fredric
Price, Major C. W. M. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Wolmer, Viscount
Radford, E. A. Steel, Major Samuel Strang Womersley, W. J.
Raine, Sir Walter Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Wood, E. (Chester, Staly'b'ge & Hyde)
Ramsden, E. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich W.)
Remer, J. R. Styles, Captain H. Walter Woodcock, Colonel H. C,
Remnant, Sir James Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Wragg, Herbert
Rentoul, G. S. Tasker, R. Inigo. Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Templeton, W. P. Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich)
Rice, Sir Frederick Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Tinker, John Joseph
Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Robinion, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Major Sir George Hennessy and
Ropner, Major L. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Mr. F. C. Thomson.
Rye, F. G. Waddington, R.