§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI beg to move,
That Item Class VI, Vote 12 (Ministry of Transport), be reduced by £100.This is the first Supply Day of the Session. A Government that was returned partly on the promise of economies has actually produced Civil Service Estimates in excess of those of last year—that is allowing for Supplementary Estimates—and I do not see why the time which is allotted to Supply, all too little in view of the extra Ministries which are being set up, should not be used by hon. Members to bring up subjects affecting their constituents. I may not have another opportunity of raising this matter on the Ministry of Transport Vote, and it is one which affects the Port of Hull. Last year a scheme was brought forward by the municipality of Hull in conjunction with the North Eastern Railway. Hon. Members opposite may not all have the pleasure of being acquainted with the City of Hull, though, in view of recent events, a good many of them I am glad to say have made the acquaintance of that city. They may not know, however, that we have an antediluvian system of level crossings there. We have three railway lines running into the city, and at each point where these cross a road, there is a level crossing. That was all very well 50 years ago, but to-day it is a serious hindrance to the trade of the port. The increasing road and rail traffic streams hamper each other, and at the present time, when trade is slack it has been calculated that we lose £2,000,000 a year through these level crossings. Last year we came forward with a carefully drawn up scheme agreed to by the North Eastern Railway and the municipality for doing away with the level crossings and making bridges. At that time the Road Fund had a surplus of £17,000,000, and we asked for some assistance in removing this impediment to the commerce of the city. I may say that this is a matter which affects not merely Hull, but the whole country, because Hull is our third seaport. This plan was approved by the experts of the Ministry of Transport, but, 175 would you believe it, Mr. Deputy-Chairman, we got not one shilling of assistance from the Ministry of Transport. The hon. Member for East Hull (Mr. Lumley) will bear me out. He was present as were all the Members for the City and the East Riding including the then Chairman of the Conservative party, Sir Stanley Jackson—
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYNot for the level crossings. That was for the North Bridge. My hon. and gallant colleague was not here when I began my few remarks.
§ Mr. LUMLEYThat scheme was more important.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYThe hon. Member thinks it was more important because the North Bridge leads from his constituency to mine. However, all the Hull Members were in this, and we were all disappointed and the whole city received a setback because the Chancellor of the Exchequer proceeded to raid the Road Fund. Money accumulated in the Fund was taken away from a legitimate purpose such as this. This scheme was approved of, on the engineering side, by the Ministry's experts. We could not do it alone as a city. It is a matter of national importance, and if the Minister allows kind of thing to happen again, then he is not the man I think he is. If he will stand up to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and see that the money that has been accumulated from the taxes on motor cars and motor commercial vehicles is used for improving transport, I hope the whole House will support him. This is a most serious matter. I have brought forward the case of Hull, because I am most familiar with it, but it is notorious that all over the country our road transport is not suitable for present day requirements. Motor road transport is of increasing importance, and more and more will the Road Fund be in demand, and if this House permits it to be raided without a protest, I consider it will be failing in its duty to the country.
§ Sir DOUGLAS NEWTONOn a point of Order. Is it permissible to raise a question on Item Class 1 before we get 176 to Item Class 6 on which the hon. and gallant Member is moving his Amendment?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANWe must vote on one thing at a time.
§ Sir D. NEWTONWe are apparently passing from consideration of Class 1 to Class 6, and there is a small item on Class 1 to which I want to call attention.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI am afraid I cannot allow that now, as we have got past Class 1.
§ Sir D. NEWTONOn the point of Order. Until the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) concluded his speech, I did not know to what item he was going to call attention, or that he was going to move this reduction, and, therefore, I was not shut out until he had actually concluded his speech. In these circumstances, is it not in order for me to move an Amendment on Class 1?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANNo. The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull made the remark in the early part of his speech that he was referring to the Ministry of Transport Vote, and the hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton) should have spoken then.
§ Sir D. NEWTONI did not think it would be courteous to interrupt the hon. and gallant Member.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYMay I point out that had I not raised this matter, the whole Vote would have passed, arid all the Classes would have been wiped out?
§ Mr. WOMERSLEYI should like to say, as representing a constituency of equal importance to that of the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy), that if the Minister of Transport makes this grant for doing away with level crossings at Hull, he will have an application from Grimsby.
§ Sir WILFRID SUGDENAnd from the Hartlepools, too!
§ Mr. WOMERSLEYWe who represent seaport towns that have this difficulty of level crossings sympathise with Hull, but we also have some sympathy 177 for the Chancellor of the Exchequer in times such as these. We realise that this is an important matter to the nation as a whole, and that when the time is opportune it ought to be tackled, and tackled in a businesslike way. I do not think that to-night is the time to move a reduction of this Vote on such a question. It is a question of far more importance than merely concerning one city or one constituency in the country, and although I would very much like to see something done in this respect, I cannot vote with the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull on this occasion.
§ Sir D. NEWTONI would like to have the opportunity of opposing the reduction of the Vote on these grounds. I would suggest to the Committee that there are many larger matters which require our sympathetic consideration before the question raised by the hon.
§ and gallant Member opposite. In the first place, we want more assistance for the maintenance of our roads, and I hope that before the money of the taxpayers its raised to help these minor questions, the major issues will be dealt with in a liberal arid sympathetic manner. While 50 per cent. may be a liberal grant in respect of Class I roads, we still need an additional grant in order to put those roads into a condition to enable them to bear modern traffic. The reconditioning of the roads to enable them to support the traffic is an expense which falls on local authorities, I hope the Committee, therefore, will reject the proposed reduction.
§ Question put, "That Item 6, Vote 12, (Ministry of Transport), be reduced by £100."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 76; Noes, 203.
179| Division No 25.] | AYES. | [10.48 p.m. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hardie, George D. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Harris, Percy A. | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland) |
| Barnes, A. | Mayday, Arthur | Rose, Frank H. |
| Barr, J. | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Batey, Joseph | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Hirst, G. H. | Scurr, John |
| Broad, F. A. | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Shiels, Dr. Drummond |
| Bromfield, William | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Buchanan, G. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel | Kelly, W. T. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Compton, Joseph | Lansbury, George | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Lawrence, Susan | Sutton, J. E. |
| Dalton, Hugh | Lindley F. W. | Taylor, R. A. |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Lunn, William | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.) |
| Day, Colonel Harry | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Townend, A. E. |
| Duncan, C. | MacLaren, Andrew | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Dunnico, H. | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Viant, S. P. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | March, S. | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Montague, Frederick | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Gardner, J. P. | Mosley, Oswald | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Gillett, George M. | Oliver, George Harold | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Grundy, T. W. | Potts, John S. | Mr. Hayes and Mr. Whiteley. |
| Hall, F. (York W.R., Normanton) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) | Riley, Ben | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Bennett, A. J. | Campbell, E. T. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Betterton, Henry B. | Carver, Major W. H. |
| Albery, Irving James | Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Cautley, Sir Henry S. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Brass, Captain W. | Charteris, Brigadier-General J. |
| Apsley, Lord | Brassey, Sir Leonard | Christie, J. A. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Churchman, Sir Arthur C. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Brittain, Sir Harry | Clarry, Reginald George |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Cobb, Sir Cyril |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. |
| Balniel, Lord | Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K. |
| Banks, Reginald Mitchell | Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Buckingham, Sir H. | Conway, Sir W. Martin |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Barman, J. B. | Cooper, A. Duff |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Burton, Colonel H. W. | Couper, J. B. |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Butt, Sir Alfred | Courtauld, Major J. S. |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. | Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Hume, Sir G. H. | Ropner, Major L. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Ruggies-Brise, Major E. A. |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Huntingfield, Lord | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Hurd, Percy A. | Rye, F. G. |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) | Salmon, Major I. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Jacob, A. E | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Jephcott, A. R. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gultave D. |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Savery, S. S. |
| England, Colonel A. | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.) |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Falls, Sir Bertram G. | Knox, Sir Alfred | Smithers, Waldron |
| Fanshawe, Commander G. D. | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Fielden, E. B. | Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Ford, Sir P. J. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) |
| Forrest, W. | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Lumley, L. R. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland) |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Macintyre, Ian | Streatfelld, Captain S. R. |
| Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | McLean, Major A. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Macmillan Captain H. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Gower, Sir Robert | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Grace, John | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Thom, Lt-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.) |
| Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Tinne, J. A. |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Grotrian, H. Brent | Merriman, F. B. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Meyer, Sir Frank | Waddington, R. |
| Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R.(Eastbourne) | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Harland, A. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Harrison, G. J. C. | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Wells, S. R. |
| Hartington, Marquess of | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Hawke, John Anthony | Murchison, Sir C. K. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Nelson, Sir Frank | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Nicholson, Col. Rt.Hn.W.G.(Ptrsf'ld.) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Hills, Major John Waller | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Withers, John James |
| Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) | Penny, Frederick George | Womersley, W. J. |
| Holland, Sir Arthur | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) |
| Holt, Captain H. P. | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) | Raine, W. | Young, Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich) |
| Hopkins, J. W. W. | Ramsden, E. | |
| Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Remer, J. R. | |
| Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Colonel C. K. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Major Cope and Captain Margesson. |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney,N.) | Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) |
Original Question put, and agreed to.
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ Sir D. NEWTONShall I be in order in raising a question on Vote 2, Class 1, the House of Commons Vote?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe hon. Member would not be in order in raising that. We have already passed that.
§ Mr. DENNIS HERBERTMay I raise in all seriousness a question as to the period for which this Vote on Account is asked? It is stated to be for a period of between three and four months, and I believe that has been the usual practice of recent years, but I do ask the Government to consider whether, for the sake of precedent, a little more care ought not to be exercised in the amount asked for in these Votes on Account. In no fewer than 10 items in this particular 180 Vote the amount asked for is more than half the total of the Estimate for the whole year. It is quite within the realms of possibility that at some future time there may be a Government with not a very large majority, and if this precedent were followed they might, by means of a Vote on Account, obtain a sum very considerable in excess of what the House was prepared to vote when the Estimates came before it. I ask that this point may be taken into consideration in future, and that it should not become a rule that the Vote on Account should be for such a long period as three or four months, and that in any event the Government should not ask for more than half the total of an Estimate without some special explanation being given of the reason.
§ Mr. BUCHANANOn this Vote the question of a grant for Scottish business 181 is under consideration, and I should have liked to see a, representative of the Scottish Office present—
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI am afraid the hon. Member cannot raise that question now. We have already gone beyond that Vote.
§ Mr. STEPHENI wish to raise a matter in connection with Class 6, which concerns the Board of Agriculture in Scotland. Some time ago the Kincardineshire Education Authority made a proposal to the Secretary of State for Scotland to allow children over 10 years of age to work in what are called "seasonal occupations." The matter was raised in the House, and we found that the Secretary of State seemed willing to agree to the proposal. He appeared to think that Scottish agriculture would go all to ruin unless children of 10 years of age were sent to work. At the same time, he seemed to be conscious of the fact that the 182 opinion of Scotland was entirely against the proposal. He told the education authority he was willing to consider the matter and was going to allow a certain time to see whether any objection should presented—
§ It being Eleven of the Clack, the Chairman proceeded, pursuant to Standing Order No. 15, to put forthwith the Question necessary to dispose of the Vote.
§ Resolution to be reported to-morrow; Committee to sit again to-morrow.
§ The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
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