LAW CHARGES AND COURTS OF LAW, SCOTLAND. (Hansard, 17 February 1927)

§ Mr. McNEILL
I feel rather out of place in putting this question before the Committee. I see some Scottish Members opposite who share that view, therefore perhaps I may tell them the historical reasons for my presenting this Estimate. A few years ago when neither the Lord Advocate or the Secretary for Scotland was present, a protest was made by a Scotsman, Sir Donald Maclean, and a predecessor of mine said it was the duty of the Treasury and from time immemorial it had been presented by the Treasury. I do not want to incur the protests of hon. Members opposite in presenting this Estimate. It is entirely a question of a deficiency of fees. There is a deficiency of £3,000 in the fees that were estimated to come in—commissary fees and sheriff court fees. I am not going to attempt, in the presence of so many Scotsmen, to go into the mystery of sheriff court or commissary fees. I have the Solicitor-General for Scotland beside me who is quite capable of answering any technical questions that may arise on the Vote. I consider I have discharged my duty when I tell the Committee that there is 1202 the deficiency to which I have referred, and as it must be made good by the end of the financial year I hope the Committee will not object to vote the sum asked for.

§ Mr. KIRKWOOD
I want to protest in the opposite sense to that in which Sir Donald Maclean protested. I think the Scottish Office should be quite capable of presenting its own Estimates without coming to the Treasury. I want the Solicitor-General for Scotland to explain the reason for this £3,000, because we Labour Members from Scotland have a notion that it has been brought about by the stupidity of the Government, and particularly of the Home Secretary. We believe that all this extra expenditure connected with administering the law in Scotland was due to applying the Emergency Powers Act—

§ The CHAIRMAN
It may be that the hon. Member is in order, but I do not see, on the face of it, how action by the Home Secretary can have caused the fees in the sheriff clerks Court to fall off.

§ Mr. KIRKWOOD
That is our misfortune here as Scotsmen. That is the reason why some of my colleagues are so anxious to get Home Rule for Scotland, because Englishmen do not understand Scottish law. The reason for the shortage is because of the Emergency Powers Act. They brought them before the sheriffs instead of bringing them before the High Court, and therefore the lawyers did not get any fees. That is some information I have given you, and I am not like the lawyers, I am giving it without any charge. I think it is our duty as Socialists, as members of the working class representing the working class,, on every occasion here to protest, and I claim on your own ruling, Sir, that I am perfectly in order here in ridiculing the Home Secretary for the way he handled the Emergency Powers Act.

§ The CHAIRMAN
Not whether he handled the Emergency Powers Act, but whether any action of his caused the fees of sheriff clerks to be less than they otherwise would have been.

§ Mr. KIRKWOOD
I have been trying to tell you, Mr. Hope, the reason why Scotland is in this unhappy position of 1203 requiring to come to England to ask for £3,000. Because the Courts were going on all the time, these men had to be maintained. Under the Emergency Powers Regulations the Courts were being utilised in another manner, and now we are asked to find £3,000. This is only another of the cases where we are called upon to foot the bill, no matter how stupid a Home Secretary there may be, and no matter how many thousand working men and working women he may send to gaol. At the moment, the Home Secretary has ever so many workmen in gaol. Although we were asked by our Front Bench not to interfere when they were negotiating with the Home Secretary—

§ The CHAIRMAN
I should imagine that more business in Court would mean more fees. Perhaps the Solicitor-General for Scotland can explain.

§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND (Mr. MacRobert)
This deficit of £3,000 has nothing to do with the expenditure of money. The reason why the £3,000 is required is that there has been a falling off in the fees received in civil matters. It has nothing whatever to do with criminal matters. These fees are received by the Sheriff's Court on behalf of the Government. The fees are paid by litigants; but owing to the peaceful nature of the Scottish people last year there has been a falling off in the fees for litigation. To the extent of £1,500 there has been a falling off in regard to these fees. In the Small Debts Court, there has been a shortage this year, compared with the Estimate, of £700. In regard to the miscellaneous part of the Sheriff Court work, there has been a falling off of about RBOO. That makes up the £1,500. The remainder of the £3,000 deficiency is due to the fact that the Commissary Department have received fewer fees because, probably fewer people have died in the year or if fewer people have not died those who have died have left less money. The Commissary fees are paid ad valorem according to the amount that is left. If a person leaves only a small sum of money, course, the amount in fees is smaller. Therefore, the whole deficiency of £3,000 is due to the shortage of fees received in the Sheriff Court, and in the Commissary Department.

§ Mr. KIRKWOOD
Is it not the case —will you give a plain answer to a plain question—that the Courts were busy with criminal cases owing to the Emergency Powers Act, and that the civil cases had to stand over, and that they are still waiting to go on with the civil cases?

§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND
The Emergency Powers Regulations have nothing to do with this particular £3,000. The reason for the shortage is, first, that there has been a falling off of 1,500 in the estimated receipts coming from the fees paid in the Commissary Department, and the further 1,500 shortage is due to the fact that there have been fewer small debt and miscellaneous cases.

§ Mr. KIRKWOOD
Is it not the case that those cases are waiting to be heard?

§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND
No. Those cases have to come on at once. The fewer small debt cases account for £700 shortage, and the balance of the £1,500 in this Department is accounted for by fewer miscellaneous cases in the Sheriff Court, cases such as workmen's compensation. It has nothing to do with criminal matters.

§ Mr. BUCHANAN
The Solicitor-General refers to the Sheriff Court. I assume that he means. the Sheriff Courts, and not one particular Sheriff Court, and that the £3,000 deficit is in respect of the Sheriff Courts in Scotland. In that case, how can he account for the fact that in Glasgow, according to the statistics that had been issued in Edinburgh, the fees have actually increased in the Sheriff Court because of the excess of litigation in small debt matters. Can he inform the Committee why this sum is needed, seeing that in Glasgow, for instance, the proportion of fees contributed by small debt litigation is higher?

§ Miss WILKINSON
I cannot follow the explanation. How is it that as Scotsmen are improving in health and character, the British taxpayer has to pay a higher rate?

§ Mr. D. HERBERT
In regard to the Small Debts Court, can the Solicitor-General say whether the decrease in proceedings is due to Scotsmen paying their debts or to creditors giving up trying to get them?

§ Mr. BUCHANAN
Is it not the fact that in the industrial centres, Glasgow in particular, there has been a very large increase, especially in the last year or two, in small debt cases, not a decrease, and that the great proportion of fees are found from small debt cases?

§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND
I cannot give the figures for Glasgow. For all Scotland, the small debt fees for the calendar year 1925 were fifteen thousand and odd pounds, and for 1926 £14,400. That shows that for the whole of Scotland there was less small debt business. There may have been more in Glasgow.

§ Mr. BUCHANAN
Can the Solicitor-General give us the figures for Glasgow?

The SOLICITOR-GENERALfor SCOTLAND
I will make inquiries and let my hon. Friend know.

§ Mr. HARDIE
Will the Solicitor-General explain that Scotland gets no money from England, and that it is the other way about. We are doing it in the interests of the education of English gentlemen.