HOUSE OF COMMONS. (Hansard, 17 February 1927)

§ Mr. McNEILL
An hon. Member on the last Supplementary Estimate was anxious to know whether the increase was not, to some extent caused by the emergency sittings of the House. I was tot able to trace a very close connection on that occasion. This Estimate is very closely connected with the emergency meetings of the House of Commons, though that is not the main cause. The main cause of this Supplementary Estimate is that the travelling facilities which are given to hon. Members have been taken advantage of during the last year to a very much greater extent. The Esti- 1196 mate was formed by the officers of the House of Commons on the experience of the last two or three years. As a matter of fact, it has worked out a good deal differently. I do not know whether the Committee wants the precise details, but I will give some to show the sort of way in which the larger amount of travelling has taken place. Comparing month by month, the year 1925–26 with 1926–27, I find that, in February the amount was £500 up, in March £300, and in April £500. In May, with the General Strike. the movement was the other way, and there was a considerable falling off, amounting to about £1,600. In June there was not much change. In August, September and October there was an increase of £600 for each month over the corresponding months of the previous year. In November there was a small increase of £150. In December the figures were about the same. In January the difference was about £300. So that it 1197 works out that the actual amount of travelling during the year has come to £33,541, as against £31,935 in the previous year. This difference, has of course to be accounted for, and I am under the necessity of coming to the House of Commons to make it good.
There is another item which hon. Members will notice. At the very last moment we were obliged to put in a revised Supplementary- Estimate That is owing to a cause which I am sure hon. Members in all parts of the House will be ready to deplore. I am sorry to say the Taxing Officer and Examiner of Bills of the House of Commons—an officer whom everyone who has come in contact with him, holds in great respect—Mr. Gully, has unfortunately broken down completely. His medical advisers in the last week in January ordered his complete retirement, and in these circumstances he is entitled under the Superannuation Act to the pension and gratuity appropriate to his service. He has served for 32 years. He has a pension of £562 and a gratuity of £1,474. That was not known until after the Estimate was framed. Strictly speaking, it must be pa-id under the Statute during the present financial year, and we have been obliged to revise the Supplementary Estimate, and pat in £1,000.
There are certain Appropriations-in-Aid which the Committee will find at the bottom of page 3 of the revised Estimate That is due to a failing off in revenue that we expected and estimated for regarding the expenses of the House of Commons. There, again, you can only estimate on a certain system of averages from the previous year, and it so happens—I do not know the reason—that there was an unexpected falling off in the number of Private Bills which were presented in the House which, had they gone on, would have earned fees according to a fixed scale; and also in the opposition to Private Bills.. That has brought about a deficiency in what was estimated originally. When the Appropriation-in-Aid, £1,424, is added to the other two items, of £1,500 in regard to travelling expenses, and the £1,000 for the retiring allowance, it makes the figure which I have to ask the Committee to Vote.

§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY
With regard to the second item, no hon. 1198 Member will think of questioning it, and we join with the right hon. Gentleman in deploring the cause of this additional sum which has made necessary the extra Supplementary Estimate. With regard to the third item on the revised Estimate, Appropriations-in-Aid, it seems very extraordinary indeed that when the opposition to Private Bills falls off, we have to provide more money. In other words, Private Bills go through with less opposition, and the House has to pay the difference.

§ Mr. McNEILL
The hon. and gallant Gentleman is quite wrong. It is owing to opposition to Bills being less.

§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY
Exactly. The opposition to Bills which was anticipated, and therefore we have to find £1,400.

§ Mr. McNEILL
Does not the hon. and gallant Gentleman see that if there is less opposition there are less fees, and consequently less revenue can come to us.

§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY
Exactly, less fees for the gentleman with the long robe. There may he an explanation but I should very much like to have it. I have had some experience of these Supplementary Estimates and this is the first I have seen where this has happened. I think it is the first for some years. With regard to travelling expenses of Members, here we have one more result of the Emergency Power Regulations being kept on long after they were required. In view of the nine days comparative peace of the general strike, which was a most orderly occurrence, with fewer people injured or killed than in an ordinary riot—

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Hope)
The hon. and gallant Gentleman really cannot anticipate that he can go on very long on this argument.

§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY
You surprise me, Sir. May I point out that this is one more proof of the nervousness of the Home Secretary. I will not pursue it except that hero is one more item in the bill which we have to hay. It is like people who have had a carousal overnight and in the morning they are presented with the Bill. They do not like the look or some of the items 1199 but they have to pay just the same, and so it is with us. The right hon. Gentleman, can, I think, congratulate himself on the fact that he has had such a small Estimate for the actual expenses. I should have thought it would be very much more. He can also congratulate himself that we do not remunerate Members of the House on a mileage basis, as for example in the United States. Every time the American Congress adjourns, even for six hours, the Members for San Francisco get full mileage allowance to San Francisco. Every week-end they get the same, whether they go back or not. Thank goodness in this Parliament we have been wise enough to make no lump sum allowance on that account and we only pay the voucher. Our present system works very well, indeed, and we can congratulate ourselves on our wisdom. We had all these extra Sittings and, apparently, owing to the very fact of the industrial stoppage Members went more to their constituencies, and that is an admirable feature, and in spite of the extra travelling the extra amount is only £1,500 for a House of over 600 Members. That is very good, indeed. The House met four times more than was anticipated, and, undoubtedly, Members have travelled much more to their constituencies. There is nothing to complain of there, and the right hon. Gentleman can congratulate himself on the system which enables him to bring forward such a comparatively modest supplementary Estimate.

§ Dr. WATTS
The right hon. Gentleman ascribed this increase in travelling expenses to the extra sittings of the House in connection with the Emergency Regulations. If the Government, instead of issuing vouchers, which entail the payment of the full ordinary fare, purchased season tickets for Members—

§ The CHAIRMAN
That is a matter that ought to have been raised on the main Estimate. We cannot discuss the policy of the main Estimate on a Supplementary Estimate.

§ Dr. WATTS
There would have been no need for a Supplementary Estimate, because in many cases a saving—

§ The CHAIRMAN
That is not the system under which we are working.
1200 When the main Estimate comes on in the next financial year these observations will be in order. They are not in order now. The Regulations in regard to Sup plementary Estimates, as the Committee know, are very narrow indeed and they exclude this particular argument.

§ Dr. WATTS
I accept your ruling, and when the main Estimate comes up I shall raise the question again.

§ Major CRAWFURD
There is one remark I should like to make arising out of the interesting speech of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy). I did not quite gather from his observations whether the Government are mostly to condemn themselves for this Supplementary Estimate, or to congratulate themselves that it is so small. I was more interested in the suggested disclosure he made as to the custom and practice in America. I hope between now and the similar occasion next year the Government will consider very carefully the hint he has given.

§ Mr. MOSLEY
I understand the bulk of this charge arising from the special sittings of the House in connection with the Emergency Powers Act, and I have well in mind your r sling on a previous Supplementary Estimate. Since that occasion I have fortified myself by reference to the Debate, and I submit that practically none of the purposes for which these special sittings were called have in fact been carried out. The Home Secretary, speaking on the first occasion, said—

§ The CHAIRMAN
That is quite clearly out of order. If we were to discuss on this Estimate whether this or that had been carried out or not, under any particular Act, and therefore whether it was necessary, there would he an endless vista on every subject involving Parliamentary expense.

§ Mr. MOSLEY
Are we not entitled to suggest that if the House is called together, at great expense to the taxpayer, in order to provide certain powers, whether any or all of those powers have been exercised?

§ The CHAIRMAN
No, certainly not. If I were to allow that hon. Members 1201 on the other side might say the whole fault was that the Emergency Powers were not made permanent.

§ Mr. MOSLEY
I am not attempting to argue the merits of the Emergency Powers. I am only trying to ask for information whether in fact the bulk of those powers, or any of them, were exercised.

§ The CHAIRMAN
All I can say is that if any Minister attempted to give that information I should request him to sit down.