HC Deb 21 December 1927 vol 212 cc482-5

Lords Amendment: In page 8, line 1, after the word "tenancy" insert. or, where the tenancy is terminated by notice, within two months after the service of the notice.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This is rather a necessary Amendment. In Clause 5 if a tenant has served on the landlord a notice requiring a new agreement, and the landlord or tenant serves notice on the tribunal, such notice is to be served not lees than nine months before the termination of the tenancy. Hon. and learned Members of the House know that there are some tenancies which enable a landlord to terminate it at quite short notice. A landlord may give three months' notice to the tenant, and in that case the tenant has not nine months in which he can give the necessary notice to go to the tribunal. Therefore, we think that the insertion of these words "or where the tenancy is terminated by notice within two months after the service of the notice" are necessary.

Sir H. SLESSER

I should like to ask one question on this point. It appears that the notice may be only one month, and the same difficulty will arise on the two months' notice as that which the right hon. Gentleman indicates will arise now. It may be better to delete the words altogether. There is no reason to suppose that two months will meet the difficulty if the notice is only one month.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS

I think the hon. and learned Member is quite right there. I think the difficulty may be got over by the insertion after the word "notice" of the words "as soon as possible thereafter." The best way of meeting the difficulty is for me to withdraw the Motion to agree with the Lords Amendment, and afterwards to move an Amendment to the Lords Amendment.

Mr. SPEAKER

The Motion must be withdrawn first.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment to Lords Amendment made: Leave out all the words after the word "notice" and insert instead thereof the words "as soon as possible thereafter."—[Sir W. Joynson-Hicks.]

Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 9, line 40, agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 10, line 21, after the word "section", insert "or of a renewal of a lease granted in lieu of compensation under the last foregoing section."

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

I think I ought to mention this Amendment. If hon. Members will look at Clause 5, Sub-section 8, it says: No claim for a new lease under this Section shall arise in respect of goodwill attaching to the premises and attributable to the trade or business carried on thereat during the term of a new lease granted in pursuance of this Section, without prejudice, however, to the right to make a claim for compensation under the last foregoing Section in respect of goodwill created during the term of such new lease. If a landlord voluntarily offers a renewal of a lease, instead of going to the tribunal to get a new lease, it is quite clear that he would be in the same position as to goodwill under the new lease as if he had driven the tenant to the tribunal and the tenant had obtained an order against the landlord for a new lease. Therefore, we propose to insert these words.

Mr. RYE

Is it quite clear that this will be the renewal of a lease granted by a landlord in lieu of the case going before the tribunal? Do not the words seem to point to the fact that this is a lease granted by an order of the tribunal and, therefore, there should not be further references to a renewal of such a lease. The case the right hon. Gentleman has in mind is one in which the landlord himself has granted a lease instead of having the case brought before the tribunal.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS

With great respect to the hon. Member I have no doubt about it myself. Under this Section no claim for a new lease will arise in respect of goodwill attaching to the premises and attributable to the trade or business carried on during the term of a new lease granted in pursuance of this Sub-section; or the renewal of a lease granted in lieu of compensation under Clause 4 of the Bill. The tenant is not entitled to compensation if the landlord says, "I will give you a new lease, I will renew your lease." If he gets renewal of his lease whether under the order of a tribunal or whether under an agreement with the landlord it is clear that the new lease should not include the right to appeal for goodwill against the landlord.

Mr. RYE

Would it be possible in order to, make the matter clearer to put in the words "if granted by the landlord" in the Amendment? At any rate I hope the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider it.

Subsequent Lords Amendments, to page 10, to line 37, agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 11, line 19, at the end, insert a reversionary lease granted in pursuance of such an Order shall be deemed to be a lease authorised by Section ninety-nine of the Law of Property Act, 1925.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

Section 99 of the Law of Property Act, 1925, refers to a lease granted by a mortgagor, and the present Bill provides that: Every such lease and reversionary lease shall be so framed as to confer on the landlord granting the lease the same rights of distress as he would have enjoyed had he retained a reversion expectant on the termination thereof. If it is a lease granted by the tribunal it may be assumed it will be a proper lease and a proper rent and, therefore, in order to meet the point of the mortgagee it must be deemed to be a lease granted under the provisions of Section 99 of the Law of Property Act, 1925.

Lords Amendment: In page 11, line 23, after the word "lease" insert unless the landlord has by licence or otherwise consented to a variation of the original terms of the lease in this respect.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This again is an Amendment inserted by the Lords in favour of the tenant. It relates to those cases where there was in the lease a condition that only a particular business should be carried on and where the landlord has by licence permitted trades to be carried on under the original lease. It provides that if these licences have been granted it should not be necessary or obligatory on the tribunal to grant new licences including the provisions of the old lease, so far as they are not altered by the terms of the licence which was granted. If a landlord has granted permission to carry on a business, when the new lease is granted they are not bound to go back to the old lease but may have regard to the licence in favour of the tenant.

Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 11, line 35, agreed to.