§ Paragraph (1) in the First Schedule to the Unemployment Insurance Inclusion Order, 1925, dated the twenty-third day of December, nineteen hundred and twenty-five, made by the Minister under the principal Act (which includes among the persons employed within the meaning of the Unemployment Insurance Acts any person employed as a sub-postmaster remunerated by scale payment who is mainly dependent for his livelihood on the earnings derived by him from employment as a sub-postmaster, and renders on the average eighteen or more hours' personal service in each week in that capacity), shall cease to have effect. — [Mr. W. Baker.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ Mr. W. BAKERI beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
I understand that certain sub-postmasters are included within the Unemployment Insurance Act as a result of a Statutory Order which was laid upon the Table for a period of 30 days and, although the organisation which represents the men took exception to the proposal, it became a part of the Unemployment Insurance Act at the expiration of that time. I want to submit that, so far as these men are concerned, they are not persons to whom the Unemployment Insurance Act should apply. Sub-postmasters, who do not depend upon their earnings as sub-postmasters, are not, I 1124 submit, employés of the Postmaster-General, but are contractors who enter into certain arrangements with his Department. I submit, in the second place, that they are retailers who normally would not be called upon to insure under the Unemployment Insurance Act; and, thirdly, that, in the main, they are employers who pay the employers' contribution so far as their own clerks are concerned. In these circumstances, I suggest that there is no case for the inclusion of certain of these sub-postmasters within the Act. As I understand it, half the sub-postmasters are excluded and half are included. The request I have to make, made on behalf of the Federation of Sub-postmasters, is that they shall be excluded from the operations of the Insurance Act as they were excluded for a period of six years as a result of' a decision of a previous Minister.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDThe question is whether certain sub-post-masters should or should not be still under the Unemployment Insurance Act. The point is a very simple one. As sub-postmasters, they are insurable persons; as shopkeepers, or people with other employments which are not normally insurable, they would be not insurable. The question is, therefore, under which category are they to come? The compromise which has been arrived at provides that if they are more shopkeeper than postmaster they are not brought under the Act. If they do more than 18 hours' work in their own time in postmastering they come under the Act; otherwise, they do not, and I think, on the whole, that is a fair arrangement. It is similar to the arrangement which has been followed in other cases, and on the merits of the case and also because the general opinion, both of the Blanesburgh Committee and of most others, is against the extension of contracting out, we think it is not right that further contracting out should be allowed. Therefore, we cannot accept the proposed Clause.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDIt is decided, I understand, by the Minister, and up to now this line of demarcation has been accepted. As a matter of fact, it is done by an Order of the Minister.
§ Mr. DUNCANHave any of these sub-postmasters ever had unemployment benefit?
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDI should require notice of that question, but I can confidently assure the hon. Member that in certain circumstances they might draw unemployment benefit.
§ Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 138; Noes, 274.
| Christie, J. A. | Heneage, Lieut-Col. Arthur P. | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Radford, E. A. |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Hills, Major John Waller | Ramsden, E. |
| Clayton, G. C. | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Holt, Capt. H. P. | Remer, J. R. |
| Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Remnant, Sir James |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) |
| Cope, Major William | Hume, Sir G. H. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Huntingfield, Lord | Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford) |
| Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Hurd, Percy A | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Rye, F. G. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Iveagh, Countess of | Salmon, Major I. |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Samuel, A M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) | Jephcott. A. R. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Kindersley, Major Guy M. | Sandon, Lord |
| Davison. Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Savery, S. S. |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Lamb, J. Q. | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie |
| Dixey, A. C. | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) |
| Drewe, C. | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A.D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Little, Dr. E. Graham | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Loder, J. de V. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Ellis, R. G. | Long, Major Eric | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| England, Colonel A. | Looker, Herbert William | Skelton, A. N. |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Lumley, L. R. | Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | McLean, Major A. | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Fermoy, Lord | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Fielden. E. B. | Macquisten, F. A. | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Ford, Sir P. J. | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Malone, Major P. B. | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. |
| Frece, Sir Walter de | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E. | Margesson, Captain D. | Templeton, W. P. |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Meller, R. J. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Gates. Percy | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Tinne, J. A. |
| Goff, Sir Park | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of. |
| Gower, Sir Robert | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Grace, John | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Waddington, R. |
| Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Grant, Sir J. A. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Morden, Colonel Walter Grant | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Greene, W. p. Crawford | Moreing, Captain A. H. | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Grotrian, H. Brent | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Nelson, Sir Frank | Wells, S. R. |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Wilson. R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Nuttall, Ellis | Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Hanbury, C. | Oakley, T. | Withers, John James |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford Luton) | Womersley, W. J. |
| Harland, A. | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) |
| Hartington, Marquess of | Perring, Sir William George | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | |
| Haslam, Henry C. | Pilcher, G. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hawke, John Anthony | Power, Sir John Cecil | Captain Viscount Curzon and Mr. |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Pownall, Sir Assheton | Penny. |
| Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Preston, William |
§ Ordered, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—[Sir A. Steel-Maitland.]
1128§ Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.