§ Mr. BETTERTONI beg to move, in page 6, line 39, to leave out the words 906 "one hundred and twenty," and to insert instead thereof the word "seventy-five."
This is the first of a series of Amendments by which my right hon. Friend is prepared to substitute 75s. for 120s.; 60s. 907 for 100s.; 37s. 6d. for 60s., and 30s. for 50s. in the paragraphs to be substituted for paragraph (a) of the proviso to Subsection (1) of Section 17 of the Principal Act. I need not detain the Committee for more than a minute. The main object of the present Clause is to ensure that the association retains some financial interest in the payment of State benefit and add some benefit from its own funds. The Clause states, in effect, that on each occasion when the association pays out State benefit it shall pay a small sum out of its own pocket. If for any reason the association discontinues paying its own benefit then the claimant or the recipient must be referred for his State benefit to the Exchange. I do not think that I am putting it unfairly when I say that this matter has been the subject of discussion with hon. Members opposite, and we have come to what I think we are justified in saying is a fair compromise as to the amounts to be inserted in this Bill.
Mr. GREENWOODOn behalf of the trade unions especially concerned, I want to express their appreciation for the way that they have been met on this particular Clause.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendments made:
§ In page 6, line 41, leave out the words "one hundred," and insert instead thereof the word "sixty."
§ In page 7, line 2, leave out the words "sixty shillings," and insert instead thereof the words "thirty-seven shillings and sixpence."
§ In page 7, line 3, leave out the word "fifty," and insert instead thereof the word "thirty."—[Mr. Betterton.]
Mr. GREENWOODI beg to move, in page 7, to leave out the words from the word "year," in line 6, to the end of Sub-section (1).
This Amendment raises an important question from the point of view of those trade unions which under Section 17 of the principal Act are administering unemployment insurance. It is clear, of course, and one admits the case made by the Government, that a union which is administering unemployment insurance on behalf of the State ought to have a financial standing, and that has been provided for in the first part of the Clause and in the Amendment which we have just 908 adopted. At the same time, difficulties may conceivably arise under the latter part of the Sub-section, the deletion of which I am now moving.
§ Mr. BETTERTONIs the Amendment to leave out Paragraph (a, iv)?
§ The CHAIRMANThat is not the Amendment on the Paper.
Mr. GREENWOODAs I understand it, a union when it pays out State benefit will be required to pay out some sum from its own funds. When it happens, as will frequently be the case, that trade union payments are exhausted, then it will not be possible for the trade union to continue to administer the fund in respect of those particular applicants whose rights to trade union out-of-work pay are exhausted, and those persons will then become direct claimants on the Exchequer. One can conceive that the effect will be to give rise to a situation in which you have a number of people who are direct claimants and then, after a period, become indirect claimants, and that, I submit, is likely to cause confusion to the Ministry itself, and certainly to the unions. I see no evidence that there have been cases of mal-administration by trade unions, and the fact that the man is a member of a union and that the union has certain financial responsibilities for the man ought to be sufficient protection. It may be said that these words are qualified by the words
Subject to the prescribed exceptionsand so on; but we are very much in the dark as to how this provision is going to affect the unions in practice, and our feeling is that while the Government have met us with regard to the aggregate payments to be made by reducing the figures to those which, in fact, operate at the present time, they may be undoing the advantage they have given us unless they can meet us in some way on a later portion of the Sub-section. Personally, I am anxious that trade unions should continue to administer this insurance, feeling that it is a good thing for the unions and for the State. Every encouragement ought to be given to trade unions to exercise their powers under Section 17 of the principal Act, but I am afraid that, as the Bill now stands, the effect will be to discourage rather than to encourage trade 909 unions to come into partnership with the State in the administration of the Act. I move the deletion of these words in order to make our position perfectly clear, that is that we say that the conditions which are to be imposed upon the trade unions will inevitably discourage them from carrying on their work and will lead them and the Ministry into administrative complications, because of the alterations as between direct claims made to the Ministry of Labour and claims in respect of the same person made through the trade unions. I hope that now that the Government find themselves in a mood for concessions they will give us a little more on this Clause for the satisfaction of the trade unions.
§ Mr. BETTERTONIf there is any impression in the mind of the hon. Gentleman that there is any charge of mal-administration against the trade unions, I will say at once that nothing is further from my intention than to make such a charge. We are just as anxious as hon. Members opposite that the present arrangements for the administration of these funds should remain. The effect of paragraph (iv) which the hon. Member seeks to leave out is shortly this: It is to ensure that an arrangement made or continued with an association for the payment of State benefit will be such as to ensure that in general, subject to the maximum period of duration, some private benefit will be payable on each occasion on which State benefit is payable. The provision is necessary for this reason, that it has been our experience that associations having arrangements have sometimes continued payment of State benefit long after the private benefit had ceased, doubtless owing to the exceptionally long periods of unemployment which have occurred in recent years. The hon. Member asked about the words "subject to the prescribed exceptions" referred to in the Clause.
§ The CHAIRMANI am not quite sure where we stand. The words "subject to the prescribed exceptions" occur in both paragraph (a, iv) and (1A). I understood the hon. Member only intended to leave out paragraph (a, iv), although of course the actual words of the Amendment as on the Paper carry us to the end of the Sub-section.
Mr. GREENWOODI have moved this Amendment in the absence of an hon. Member. My mind was a little rusty about it, but I was under the impression that the Amendment as I moved it went down to the words "this section," that is to say, included paragraph (ii) as well as paragraph (a), (iv).
§ Mr. BETTERTONI also understand that the hon. Gentleman was limiting himself to the deletion of paragraph (a) (iv), and, if so, I have nothing to add to what I have already said.
Mr. GREENWOODI understand that the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Clay Cross (Mr. Duncan) should go down to the words "not been made" at the end of paragraph (a) (iv).
§ The CHAIRMANI am willing to allow a discussion to be taken on both points if it be the wish of the Committee.
§ Mr. BETTERTONThen I will deal with the second point. It is absolutely necessary in our view that some reasonable degree of elasticity should be allowed in requiring an association to pay benefits because the rules of the association governing the eligibility for benefit may differ slightly from the rules of the State scheme. For this reason it is not desirable to insist on anything like fixed or rigid forms. We desire to have that degree of elasticity which is absolutely essential to the smooth working of any arrangement which is made. That is why we insert the words
Subject to the prescribed exceptions.It is contemplated that the effect of those words will be to say that an association may pay State benefit for a period not exceeding four weeks although the man for the time being is not receiving his association benefit. A case might arise in which a man is temporarily not receiving association benefits because he has not paid his contributions. Therefore we think that in the interests of everyone it is desirable that we should insert the words named in the paragraph.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 197; Noes, 95.
| Division No. 428.] | AYES. | [1.59 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Moore, Sir Newton J. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Ford, Sir P. J. | Morden, Col. W. Grant |
| Albery, Irving James | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Moreing, Captain A. H. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Foster, Sir Harry S. | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) |
| Atkinson, C. | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Nelson, Sir Frank |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Fraser, Captain Ian | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) |
| Balniel, Lord | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert |
| Banks, Reginald Mitchell | Ganzonl, Sir John | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Gates, Percy | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Penny, Frederick George |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. | Grace, John | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Grant, Sir J. A. | Perring, Sir William George |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w, E) | Pilditch, Sir Philip |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft. | Grotrian, H. Brent | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Pownall, Sir Assheton |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Remnant, Sir James |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Harrison, G. J. C. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Salmon, Major I. |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Haslam, Henry C. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Henderson, Capt. R.R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Sandon, Lord |
| Burman, J. B. | Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) | Savery, S. S. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Hilton, Cecil | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Holt, Capt. H. P. | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Smithers, Waldron |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N). | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Hume, Sir G. H. | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Huntingfield, Lord | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Illffe, Sir Edward M. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Christie, J. A. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Iveagh, Countess of | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Clayton, G. C. | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Colman, N. C. D. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Kinloch-CooKe, Sir Clement | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Cope, Major William | Lamb, J. Q. | Templeton, W. P. |
| Couper, J. B. | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Loder, J. de V. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Long, Major Eric | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Looker, Herbert William | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Lumley, L. R. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Wells, S. R. |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) | McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple- |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Maclntyre, Ian | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | McLean, Major A. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Macquisten, F. A. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Drewe, C. | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Ellis, R. G. | Malone, Major P. B. | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.). |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Margesson, Captain D. | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | |
| Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Meller, R. J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Meyer, Sir Frank | Mr. F. C. Thomson and Major Sir |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Harry Barnston. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Cape, Thomas | Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Charleton, H. C. | Gibbins, Joseph |
| Ammon, Charles George | Clowes, S. | Gosling, Harry |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Connolly, M. | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coine) |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Cove, W. G. | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Dalton, Hugh | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) |
| Barnes, A. | Day, Colonel Harry | Groves, T. |
| Batey, Joseph | Dennison, R. | Grundy, T. W. |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Dunnico, H. | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Edge, Sir William | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) |
| Broad, F. A. | Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Hardie, George D. |
| Buchanan, G. | Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Hayday, Arthur |
| Hayes, John Henry | Naylor, T. E. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Oliver, George Harold | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Palin, John Henry | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Hirst, G. H. | Paling, W. | Townend, A. E. |
| Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Ponsonby, Arthur | Varley, Frank B. |
| Kennedy, T. | Potts, John S. | Viant, S. P. |
| Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Ritson, J. | Wailhead, Richard C. |
| Kirkwood, D. | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland) | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Lansbury, George | Rose, Frank H. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Lawrence, Susan | Saklatvala, Shapurji | Westwood, J. |
| Lawson, John James | Scurr, John | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Livingstone, A. M. | Sexton, James | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Lowth, T. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Lunn, William | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis | Wilson, R. J (Jarrow) |
| MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | Wright, W. |
| Mackinder, W. | Sitch, Charles H. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Snell, Harry | |
| March, S. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Montague, Frederick | Stamford, T. W. | Mr. Allen Parkinsonson and Mr. B. |
| Morris, R. H. | Stephen, Campbell | Smith. |
§ Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.