HC Deb 02 December 1927 vol 211 cc929-42

I beg to move, in page 8, to leave out from the word "benefit" in line 25 to the word "be" in line 29, and to insert instead thereof the words "shall continue to."

In the first place, I desire to enter my protest that the fall of the guillotine will prevent a full discussion of this important Clause, and I do so in order to preserve my rights on Report stage and on Third Reading. Hon. Members will have noticed that several important Amendments have been speedily passed over in order that we might have just a few moments for the consideration of this Clause. The Amendment will have the effect of continuing the present state of affairs, so far as the Minister's discretion is concerned. Sub-section (1), with the Amendment made, would then read: In the case of a person who immediately before the commencement of this Act satisfied the requirements for the receipt of benefit under Section one of the Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Act, 1924, as amended by Section one of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1925, benefit shall continue to be paid to him as if this Act had not been passed. What are the points with which this Clause deals? It is known as the transitional period Clause. At the moment there are thousands of unemployed persons who were admitted to benefit under the 1924 (No. 2) Act, as amended by the 1925 Act, notwithstanding the fact that they may not have been able to prove the statutory stamps condition. At the moment there are many drawing benefits who have no stamps to their credit. My concern is that we should have debated what is the meaning of it all. With the retention of the words that I seek to delete, I fear it means that from 19th April next there will at once take place an examination of the qualifications of all persons at present signing the register or in receipt of unemployment benefit, and that if it is found, as it is found, that these recipients cannot prove any stamps qualification such as would carry them over a fuller transitional period, they will gradually be weeded out as the examination reveals the facts within the period of six months. It only shows the importance of our being able to discuss more fully the implication of this Clause. We have had no explanation so far. All that we can imagine is that, notwithstanding any qualification under which a person may at present be in receipt of benefit, that shall continue until the examination takes place. But why the limit of six months?

3.0 p.m.

I know that under the 1924 Act there was, but not altogether in this connection, a paragraph which laid down a period of six weeks for the examination of qualifications, but then whatever those qualifications revealed themselves to be, the Minister's discretion could always follow them up; but in this case there will be no Minister's discretion to follow up whatever may be the revealed facts. But it also brings in a larger class that will come under the transitional stage. During one stage of our discussion the Minister said that it was possible for an insured person at present getting benefit, within his discretion, to carry on and draw benefit until the early part of 1930. That is, within the 12 months from the passing of this Act, they can establish a claim under the present conditions and then be admitted to benefit to the end of their benefit period. He suggested that under the 30 stamps qualification there would be the possibility of a person drawing benefit for 70-odd weeks. My right hon. Friend took an extreme case. Assume that at the end of the transitional period with which this deals it is found that a person may have 30 stamps, but that four of those stamps are in relation to the first quarter of the two years immediately preceding his application. Then with his first quarter of benefit be wipes out four stamps, leaving him 26. That in itself will put him out of benefit. So that while a person may have a 30 stamps qualification, represented by stamps part of which cover the first period of the two years immediately preceding his application, he can draw benefit only for a period of three months, because the three months period entered into the review of the two years immediately preceding.

It is very difficult for one to compress all that one would like to say in the very short time available. We have had varied estimates as to the numbers that will be affected under this Clause. The Minister in his White Paper mentioned 56,000, and then by certain deductions it can be reduced to 30,000 by the end of 1929 or the early part of 1930. An hon. Member opposite said that according to his calculations it would be more than 100,000. I have said that according to my calculations, based on the method pursued by the Minister in his White Paper, it would be more like 138,000. On page 3 of the White Paper the Minister says that an analysis was taken of 7,703 males and 1,193 females, which showed that 13.8 per cent. of males would not be able to prove the 30 stamps qualification since April, 1925, in relation to April, 1927, the two years period that it is assumed was got out. It will be noted that there were at that time 840,000 males on the live register, and if we apply the percentage of 13.8 to them a figure of about 116,000 is reached. In regard to the females, there were 5 per cent. who would not have satisfied the 30 contributions test. At that time there were 134,000 females signing the live register, and if we apply the 5 per cent. figure to them we get a number somewhere within the range of 7,000.

I think it would have been quite proper, at the time when these figures were ascertained, to have taken account of the fact that there must have been from 115,000 to 120,00 cards on the two months file that had never been lifted. The same rate of percentage should have been applied to the two months file as it then existed, representing somewhere about 115,000 to 120,000. [Interruption.] I agree that is an estimate but it only shows how uncertain all these calculations are. There is always an element of uncertainty which must be allowed for. The nearest figures that I could get indicate that there were 115,000 on the two months file at that time. An hon. Member has said that some of these may be dead. True, and some may have left their cards there and gone into some form of uninsured occupation, but, even if you eliminate all these cases, I do not think you could take out many more than 10,000. Then you would have to count against that the number you are constantly removing from the two months file. If you apply the same proportion you will get a figure of 138,000 persons who on the 5th April, 1927, could not satisfy the 30 stamps qualification as be- tween April, 1925, and April, 1927, that being the two years period covered by the ascertainment test of my right hon. Friend. I know he gets deductions from the figures which he originally gave, by saying there would be some 8,000 who would come under the old age pension scheme in the early part of next year, and he makes other deductions as well. But to counter that statement he also says that these figures represent an equal average of unemployment for the general industry of the country. That is not true. He would have to add a considerable number to his estimate in respect of the disproportionate percentage of miners unemployed as compared with the other industries in the country.

It would require much cross-reference to other Clauses and to Sections of previous Acts to bring up to date the various stages through which the Minister's discretion has been exercised, up to the point of estimating the number of unfortunates who are to be sacrificed under the present Bill and showing the hardship that it will entail. It is this Clause which is causing tremendous anxiety to the boards of guardians in the country. This Clause alone ought to have occupied a whole day and even then we would not have exhausted legitimate criticism of its terms as it stands. If, notwithstanding the handicap we are under as to time, we can preserve to ourselves the right to pursue this matter on Report stage and, if need be, make it a subject of discussion on the Third Reading, I shall feel that I have done sufficient in introducing the subject this afternoon even under our limitations as to time.


First of all, let me deal with the precise effect of the Amendment, and then very briefly speak a little more generally, if I may do so within the rules of order, but following what the hon. Member has said. The precise effect of the Amendment would be to allow benefit to go on under the same conditions as now for ever; in other words, it amounts to a Second Pleading rejection of the Bill, and I am sure the hon. Member will not himself expect us to agree to that. Now let me deal with some of the other points about which he asked. In regard to the lack of time, I do not want to take up time in controversy, but I am bound to say that hon. Members opposite, if they had wished, could have had the equivalent of a half-day yesterday and a half-day on Monday in which to discuss this Clause. They themselves did not take the opportunity, but they might have had practically a whole day for the purpose had they wanted it, so that at any rate the responsibility for that, if it be a fault, lies with them and not with us. As to the estimates of the effects of the Clause, which the hon. Member said have varied, I agree that there are many people who have given varying estimates, but there are two estimates that have not varied, and they are the estimate that I have given and the estimate of the actuary, which is based on rather a different degree of unemployment but corresponds with my estimate. Those two estimates are in correspondence one with the other, and they have not varied.

As to the transitional arrangements, I will just say a few words to make the situation clear, because I do not think the hon. Member has got some of these points quite clear. There are, as he said, two stages in the transitional arrangements. The object of the first is not to cut anybody off because they have not got the particular stamp qualification; it is simply an administrative matter, so to speak, to enable the Department to turn round. When you go from one system to another, then obviously, when there are throughout a year from three to four millions of people making claims, the change is bound to affect a large number of people and a large number of claims, and the first transitional provision merely means that before people get on to the transitional period proper, their claims need not be examined at once. It gives us the opportunity of not examining their claims all on one day or in one week. It would be impossible to do that, but spreading then] over six months and allowing them during that period to go on as before gives the Department and the officials time in which to go through the claims. During that period, those in receipt of benefit go on exactly as before. The only object of that examination is to see whether they satisfy the conditions of the transitional period.

During that transitional period the conditions are those which are noted in the Bill, and they are very analogous to the present system under which benefit is given. The transitional period makes very slight alterations. They have to satisfy, as now, what we know as the eight and thirty rule, and they have to continue to satisfy some of the extended benefit conditions. They have to satisfy, as for the present extended benefit, the condition that they are normally employed persons within the meaning of the Act. Similarly, about the reasonable period of employment, the Clause continues these two conditions as now. They do not have to satisfy the two other conditions, first that they are likely to continue in an insured trade—that is omitted, because it is not in harmony with the other provisions of the Bill—and, secondly, that they are making a reasonable effort to obtain work. As the much discussed Clause "genuinely seeking work" applies throughout, we consider there is no reason to keep up the other parallel extended benefit condition in addition. Therefore, it simply means that during the transitional period they will be asked to satisfy conditions very analogous to the present extended benefit provisions until the end of the transitional period.


What about paragraph (c) in Sub-section (2) with reference to the two years?


That paragraph says: That he has, during the two years immediately preceding the date of the application for benefit, been employed in an insurable employment to such an extent as was reasonable. That means that during the currency of his claim, if at any period he comes to the end of two years without a reasonable amount of work he is liable to be disqualified. The Clause continues the present extended benefit conditions in that respect. Lastly, as regards the period to which the transitional conditions attach, it means that in a case in which, say, anyone starts a benefit year, within the calendar year 19th April 1928, to 19th April, 1929, he can get the advantage of the whole of that benefit year. This is a departure from the Blanesburgh Report. It extends-the transitional period for more months than would otherwise be the case, because an extreme case would be that of a person who began the benefit year shortly before April, 1929, and he gets the benefit of the whole currency of the benefit year.


I think the speech of the right hon. Gentleman is about the best argument that could have been given against the limitation of debate on this particular Clause, because it does seem that the right hon. Gentleman himself is not quite clear about the interpretation of the Clause. Time and time again I have found it very difficult as one who has to vote on this Clause, and certainly people outside who are intensely interested in this matter cannot understand it. What it means is this. There are thousands of men, particularly in mining areas, who are going very soon to be cut out of benefit as a result of the operation of this Clause. I know that may seem to be hardly a proper interpretation. The right hon. Gentleman says, for instance, that what this means is that it is for administration purposes—


Only the first six months. The transitional period is the main thing. What I call the bridge of the first six months is merely giving an extended time to certain people in order to let the cases be reviewed in as quick succession as possible. It does not affect benefit rates at all.


What this Clause says is this: During such period as may be necessary for the examination of the qualifications of that person for the receipt of benefit under this Act, but not in any case after the expiration of six months from the commencement of this Act. Then it goes on to lay down quite a number of conditions, one of which is: That he has, during the two years immediately preceding the date of the application for benefit, been employed in insurable employment to such an extent as was reasonable, having regard to all the circumstances of the case, and, in particular, to the opportunities for obtaining insurable employment during that period. I submit that great masses of men who have not been employed for two years are going to be put into the hands of the officials of the administration for the interpretation of this Clause. We know-that men who are as good as the Minister or any Member of the House—intelligent, strong, young and virile men who have served their country—are going to be cut out in a very short time after this Clause goes through. I heard an hon. Member say the other night that he could hardly understand how a disabled man could fail to get his 10 stamps. There are thousands of men in the county from which I come—and I am speaking for the mining areas—of the finest type, who have not worked for the past two years or even longer—men who want work—and it is certain that this transitional Clause is going to give them the alternative of going on the rates. That is the plain blunt fact.

I hear that industry is moving to the south, and it will be a good thing, because it will make this House understand what it has to face. I and my friends will go home to-day to our mining villages, and we shall see men with whom we went to school, men of the finest type, who want to give their children a chance of education, and yet to-day they can scarcely get bread because of the position in which they find themselves. In an area like mine, no able-bodied man can get relief. What is going to become of the great mass of these men? The Government take no steps to deal with the unemployment problem; the only step they do take is to rob them of the little which they have to depend on, and then they come along with this Bill on the plea that this Clause practically makes sure that nothing is going to begin to operate for two years.


The hon. Gentleman must have completely misunderstood me. What I endeavoured to point out to him was that the condition to which he refers is precisely the same condition without alteration as in the existing law.


With certain exceptions, of course, it is precisely the same, but the difference is this, that there are rota committees operating and all kinds of means whereby one can bring pressure to bear in favour of these men getting special consideration. In Bill after Bill which the Government have passed they have found it impossible to operate the Clauses as they stood, and stage by stage they have been compelled to let their sympathy go beyond the law. That is how things have operated in the past, but now that we are on the 30 stamps' contribution system we are to have the strict law. The suggestion that it will be two years before these transitional Clauses begin to operate is not true. What will happen very soon, that is to say, when our people get into the hands of these administrators, will be that people away in remote villages, forgotten by the people, forgotten by this House, will be left to starve and to eat grass, as they did in the old days of the French régime, before the Revolution. I sometimes say to myself that if it had not been for the kind of pantomime Bolshevism we have had in this country, for the sentiment abroad which has killed any fear of a physical uprising, the things which strong, serious men are saying at the present time would make this House think differently from what it is thinking at present.

This Clause is the crux of the whole Bill and has given an opportunity for almost a Second Reading Debate, and as I have sat here listening to the speeches which have been made I have thought that if we could have appealed individually to hon. Members opposite—men with good hearts, intelligent men, and most of them here because of some service they have rendered in their particular districts—and taken them up to some of these areas, particularly the mining areas, and shown them what is happening, they would not have let the Government do what was done yesterday nor let them pass this Clause. I feel the House is entitled to a fuller description of this Clause. I do not believe the Minister fully understands it. I do not believe anybody understands it, except the gentlemen sitting in the Box over there, and if they could tell the whole truth they would say they are carrying out what is the Government policy of starving men into accepting conditions which they otherwise would not accept. We have heard Debates to-day upon Clauses which will, in their effect, give employers the right to extend hours, to reduce wages, to starve men into submission, and this Clause, in spite of its

Division No. 430.] AYES. [3.31 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.
Ainsworth. Major Charles Balniel, Lord Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Albery, Irving James Banks, Reginald Mitchell Bennett, A. J.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Betterton, Henry B.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Barnston, Major Sir Harry Birchall, Major J. Dearman

camouflage, in spite of all its provisions for transitional delay, will mean in the long run that the full operation of this Bill will come about much more quickly than most people think. The people, who will feel it will be those who in this very week-end cannot meet their ordinary grocery bills and butchers' bills. Butchers' bills! They do not have any butchers' bills, because they can scarcely go that far at the present time.

In view of the situation in which we find ourselves, in view of the absolute starvation ahead, can we not appeal to the intelligence and the good will of the mass of Conservative Members to persuade the Minister to accept this Amendment? It is true that it holds up the full operation of the Bill, but in the long run it will certainly have a good effect on the mass of the people. I will say I think there will be one good thing about this Bill—if the General Election comes in two years' time. The full operation of the Bill and the full weight of it will be known by that time, and I am certain—


The hon. Member has just said it would be beginning at once.


I did not say anything of the kind. I said the full weight of the Bill would be known by that time, and if all the people in different parts of the country were in the same position as the people are in the mining areas, and felt as do those in the mining areas, the Government would certainly experience the full effects of this legislation at the next election.

It being Half-past Three of the Clock, The CHAIRMAN proposed, pursuant to the Order of the House of 1st December, to put forthwith the Question on the Amendment already proposed from the Chair.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 219; Noes, 105.

Blades, Sir George Rowland Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Boothby, R. J. G. Grant, Sir J. A. Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Greens, W. P. Crawford Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w, E) Oakley, T.
Braithwaite, Major A. N. Grotrian, H. Brent Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Brassey, Sir Leonard Gunston, Captain D. W. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Penny, Frederick George
Brittain, Sir Harry Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Harrison, G. J. C. Perring, sir William George
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Hartington, Marquess of Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Pilditch, Sir Philip
Burman, J. B. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Power, sir John Cecil
Burton, Colonel H. W. Haslam, Henry C. Pownall, Sir Assheton
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hawke, John Anthony Remnant, Sir James
Campbell, E. T. Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Carver, Major W. H. Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Cassels. J. D. Hilton, Cecil Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S J. G. Salmon, Major I.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth.S.) Holt, Capt. H. P. Sandeman, N. Stewart
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Hopkins, J. W. W Sandon, Lord
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Savery, S. S.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Chilcott, Sir Warden Hume, Sir G. H, Shepperson, E. W.
Christie, J. A. Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Huntingfield, Lord Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Clayton, G. C. Illffe, Sir Edward M. Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Cobb, Sir Cyril Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Iveagh, Countess of Smithers, Waldron
Colman, N. C. D. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth. Cen'l) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Cooper, A. Duff James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Sprot, Sir Alexander
Cope, Major William Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
Couper, J. B. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston). Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) King, Commodore Henry Douglas Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Streatfeild, Captain S. R.
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Lamb, J. Q. Stuart, Hon J. (Moray and Nairn)
Crookshank. Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Curzon, Captain Viscount Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Loder, J. de V. Tasker, R. Inigo.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Looker, Herbert William Templeton, W. P.
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Davies, Dr. Vernon Lumley, L. R. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Dawson, Sir Philip Lynn, Sir R. J. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Drewe, C. Macdonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Edmondson, Major A. J. Macintyre, Ian Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Elliot, Major Walter E. McLean, Major A. Wallace, Captain D. E.
Ellis, R. G. Macmillan, Captain H. Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Macquisten, F. A. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith MacRobert, Alexander M. Watson, Rt. Hon W. (Carlisle)
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Wells, S. R.
Everard, W. Lindsay Makins, Brigadier-General E. White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalryntple-
Fairfax, Captain J. G. Malone, Major P. B. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Falle, Sir Bertram G. Margesson, Captain D. Williams, Com. C. (Devon. Torquay)
Ford, Sir P. J. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Williams, Herbert a. (Reading)
Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Meller, R. J. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Meyer, Sir Frank Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Fraser, Captain Ian Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Wolmer, Viscount
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Womersley, W. J.
Galbraith, J. F. W. Moore, Sir Newton J. Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Ganzonl, Sir John Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).
Gates, Percy Morden, Colonel Walter Grant Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Moreing, Captain A. H. Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich)
Glyn, Major R. G. C. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Goff, Sir Park Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Grace, John Nelson, Sir Frank Major Sir George Hennessy and
Captain Bowyer.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) Cape, Thomas Edge, Sir William
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Charleton, H. C. Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)
Amnion, Charles George Cluse, W. S. Gardner, J. P.
Attlee, Clement Richard Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Gibbins, Joseph
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) Connolly, M. Gillett, George M.
Baker, Walter Cove, W. G. Gosling, Hairy
Barnes, A. Dalton, Hugh Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coins)
Batey, Joseph Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Bondfield, Margaret Day, Colonel Harry Groves, T.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Dennison, R. Grundy, T. W.
Broad, F. A. Duncan, C. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Buchanan, G. Dunnico, H. Hardie, George D.
Hayday, Arthur Morris, H. H. Sutton, J. E.
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Naylor, T. E. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow).
Hlrst, G. H. Oliver, George Harold Thurtle, Ernest
Hlrst, W. (Bradford, South) Palm, John. Henry Tinker, John Joseph
Hore-Belisha, Leslie Paling, W. Townend, A. E.
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Ponsonby, Arthur Varley, Frank B.
Kennedy, T. Potts, John S. Vlant, S. P.
Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Ritson, J. Wallhead, Richard C.
Kirkwood, D. Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Lansbury, George Rose, Frank H. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Lawrence, Susan Saklatvala, Shapurji Wellock, Wilfred
Lawson, John James Salter, Dr. Alfred Westwood, J.
Livingstone, A. M. Scurr, John Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Lowth, T. Sexton, James Williams, David (Swansea, East>
Lunn, William Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R (Aberavon) Short, Alfred (Wednesday) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Mackinder, W. Sitch, Charles H. Windsor, Walter
MacLaren, Andrew Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithes Wright, W.
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Snell, Harry Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
March, S. Stephen, Campbell TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Montague, Frederick Strauss, E. A. Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Charles

The CHAIRMAN then proceeded, successively, to put forthwith the Questions necessary to dispose of the Business to be concluded at Half-past Three of the Clock at this day's Sitting, and on an Amendment moved by the Government of which notice had been given.

Division No. 431.] AYES. [3.40 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Goff, Sir Park
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Chilcott, Sir Warden Gower, Sir Robert
Ainsworth, Major Charles Christie, J. A. Grace, John
Albery, Irving James Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Clayton, G. C. Grant, Sir J. A.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Cobb, Sir Cyril Greene, W. P. Crawford
Atkinson, C. Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w, E)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Colman, N. C. D. Grotrian, H. Brent
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Cooper, A. Duff Gunston, Captain D. W.
Balniel, Lord Cope, Major William Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Banks, Reginald Mitchell Couper, J. B. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Harrison, G. J. C.
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Hartington, Marquess of
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey. Gainsbro) Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Curzon, Captain Viscount Haslam, Henry C.
Bennett, A. J. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hawke, John Anthony
Betterton, Henry B. Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxt'd, Henley)
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle)
Blades, Sir George Rowland Davies, Dr. Vernon Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Boothby, R J. G. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington. S.) Hilton, Cecil
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Dawson, Sir Philip Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J G.
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Drewe, C. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Braithwaite, Major A. N. Eden, Captain Anthony Holt, Captain H. P.
Brassey, Sir Leonard Edmondson, Major A. J. Hopkins, J. W. W.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Elliot, Major Walter E. Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities
Brittain, Sir Harry Ellis, R. G. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.J
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Hume, Sir G. H.
Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Everard, W. Lindsay Huntingfield, Lord
Burman, J. B. Fairfax, Captain J. G. Illffe, Sir Edward M.
Burton, Colonel H. W. Falle, Sir Bertram G. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Ford, Sir P. J. Iveagh, Countess of
Campbell, E. T. Forestler-Walker, Sir L. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Carver, Major W. H. Foxcroft, Captain C. T. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Cassels, J. D. Fraser, Captain Ian Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Freemantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Galbraith, J. F. W. King, Commodore Henry Douglas.
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) Ganzoni, Sir John Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Gates, Percy Lamb, J. Q.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Glyn, Major R. G. C. Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.