CLAUSE 25.—(Transfer of existing officers.) (Hansard, 25 November 1926)

§ The LORD ADVOCATE
I beg to move in page 20, line 5, after the word "rates," to insert the words and who at the commencement of this Act is still so employed by the parish council. This Amendment is to make clear what I think is clearly embodied in the Clause already, but since the Committee stage it was suggested to us that, as there was some doubt as to the way in which this transfer was to operate, we should make the matter quite clear and therefore we propose the addition of these words so as to put the matter beyond doubt.

§ The LORD ADVOCATE
I beg to move in page 20, line 33, to leave out from the word "to" to the word "where," in line 37, and to insert instead thereof the words compensation in respect of loss of superannuation rights under the scheme for the period of his service prior to transfer to the rating authority so, however, that, if 639 the rating authority subsequently adopt or institute a superannuation scheme, such officer shall not, for the purposes of that scheme, be entitled to have account taken of any period of service in respect of which he has received compensation under this proviso unless within six months of the scheme being so adopted or instituted he repays to the rating authority the sum paid as compensation under this proviso, without interest; and, on payment of such compensation by the rating authority, the parish council shall, out of their superannuation fund, pay to the rating authority the sum in respect of return of contributions with interest which would, under Section ten of the Local Government and other Officers' Superannuation Act, 1922, have been payable to the officer if that Section had applied in his case; and (ii). This Amendment, and practically the whole of the subsequent Amendments on this Clause, are the result of an undertaking which I gave to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham) to reconsider certain proposals which he made in the Committee stage on behalf, mainly, I think, of the National Association of Local Government Officers. I have been in touch with the right hon. Gentleman since, and, so far as I was able to agree with him, the result is put in these Amendments, of which this is the first. The main thing that we have made clear now under this Amendment, for instance, is that, where an officer who is already subject to a superannuation scheme is transferred to a rating authority who have no scheme, he would get, under the Bill as it stands, the return of his contributions, but if the rating authority to whom he is gone subsequently adopted a scheme, we provide that he is to come into that scheme, if he chooses, on the condition of repaying the amount which he has already got at the time of the transfer. He can come in if he wishes to do it, and the parish council, the first body, is bound to pay to the second body to whom the officer is transferred, towards compensation, the contribution they had received under the old scheme. That is the effect of this Clause coupled with this Amendment. It is rather complicated, and it would take a long time to explain in any detail.

§ Mr. W. GRAHAM
May I at once acknowledge the very great care which the Lord Advocate has taken in dealing with the difficult portion of the Bill, 640 and I think we can agree that probably our doubts would be removed by a simple statement on the proposal now before the House. The Lord Advocate referred, of course, to the position of transfer values under these superannuation schemes where the local government officer transfers from one local authority to the new rating authority under this Bill. If I may anticipate a very little to make the matter easier there are really two points in this second Sub-section of the Clause now under consideration. The first provides for the transfer value and then, towards the end, on the second Sub-section there is a reference to these officers having the benefit of the provision of the Local Government and other Officers Superannuation Act, 1922, and in particular Sub-section (1) of Section 8 of that Act. Some critics read the Clause as it appears in the Bill as if they thought it tended to exclude the general provision of the Act of 1922. That matter can be quite clearly explained when it is remembered that the Act of 1922 is purely permissive in character. In Section 16 of that Act there is a provision under which the local authority may give an allowance in respect of non-contributing service, that is, the service in which there is no contribution for the purpose of superannuation, and in Subsection (1) of Section 16 there is also another arrangement under which, by Resolution, the local authority may agree to give an allowance up to one-sixtieth for each year's service rather than 1/120th. The doubt which arose was whether the Clause as framed covered these rights comprehensively, namely, the right of transfer value, and in the second place, the right of consideration of non-contributing service as embodied in Section 16 of the Act of 1922. I have refrained, however, from putting down any Amendment, because it appears to me to be unnecessary, but outside these walls there remains some anxiety on the part of local government officials, and I think they would be perfectly satisfied if the Government felt able to make a statement to the effect that this Clause as it stands is comprehensive in character, that it provides for that transfer value under Section 8, but that it also includes every benefit and, in particular, that benefit for non-contributing service under Section 16 and the other 641 provisions of that legislation. If the Lord Advocate felt able to make that statement all doubt would disappear.

§ The LORD ADVOCATE
I think the right hon. Gentleman has interpreted the Clause correctly. The purpose of this Clause is to deal not only with those who are contributors but with the others who have passed the age of 65 and have ceased to be contributors, and where the authority has passed Resolutions that they cease to be contributors. Some anxiety has been expressed as to whether that class is covered by the Bill, but the next Amendment makes it clear that they are included.

§ The LORD ADVOCATE
I beg to move, in page 21, line 22, at the end, to insert the words (6) Any transferred officer whose services are dispensed with, or whose salary is reduced by the rating authority within five years after the commencement of this Acv because his services are not required or his duties are diminished, and not on the ground of misconduct, shall be entitled to compensation unless it is proved that the pecuniary loss suffered has not arisen in consequence of this Act. These words are proposed simply to bring this Measure into line with the English Act.

§ The LORD ADVOCATE
I beg to move, in page 21, line 30, after the word "office" to insert the words "or by determination of his appointment."
These words are proposed because there might be a difficulty where the office is not abolished but determined or terminated. Where the bolder of an office can prove that its termination is directly due to the Act it would not be fair that he should not have compensation.

§ The LORD ADVOCATE
I beg to move in page 22, line 17, to leave out Sub-section (9).
This Sub-section was inserted in Committee in this Clause, but it has been decided that it would be more appropriate that it should be inserted in the Schedule, and this will be done by a later Amendment.