HC Deb 25 November 1926 vol 200 cc604-20

Amendments made:

In page 7, line 43, leave out the word "of."

In page 8, line 7, after the word "of" insert the words "an amount representing."—[Sir J. Gilmour.]

Lieut.-Colonel THOM

I beg to move, in page h, line 21, to leave out the word "thereof" and to insert instead thereof the words "of such local Act."

This is a drafting Amendment.

Mr. MACQUISTEN

I beg to second the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

In page 8, line, 23, leave out the words for Scotland ", and insert instead thereof the words "of State." In line 26, leave out the words "total or."

In line 29, leave out the word "rates", and insert instead thereof the word "rate,"

In line 29, leave out the words "the order", and insert instead thereof the words "of the local Act modified and adapted as aforesaid."—[Sir J. Gilmour.]

Mr. MacIntyre

I beg to move, in page 8, line 30, to leave out the words in effect not less than", and to insert instead thereof the words "as near as may be the same as."

I move this Amendment on behalf of my hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Sir S. Chapman). It is really a drafting Amendment. The Proviso which we propose to amend gives certain relief to the payers of rates. It gives the same relief that is given under certain local Acts. If the Clause stands as drafted, the effect may be to give more relief. The desire is to give the same relief, and the words of the Amendment carry out that intention.

Mr. R. MacDONALD

I beg to second the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

The LORD ADVOCATE

I beg to move, in page 8, line 39, at the end, to insert the words (3) Save as provided in Sub-sections (1) and (2) of this Section the annual value of all lands and heritages for the purposes of all rates (other than water rates leviable under a local Act shall be the gross annual value thereof, subject to the provisions of Sub-section (6) of this Section or of Section forty-five of the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1903, or the corresponding provisions of any local Act. The purpose of the Amendment is to make clear what is implied in the Clause already, and that is that lands and heritages affected by and getting the advantage of the deductions in the First Schedule, and which are affected by Subsection (2) of this Clause, will be rated on the gross valuation. This is the Amendment to which I referred in connection with the new Clause proposed by my right hon. Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir H. Craik) as making it clear that Clause 12 deals with all the lands and heritagets in Scotland, not only those that are rated en the net annual valuation after deductions have been allowed, but also those which get any deduction and are rateable on gross valuation. This Amendment makes that point clear.

Mr. MAXTON

I did not have the privilege of attending either the House or the Committee at previous stages in the progress of this Bill. Consequently, I do not feel in a very strong position to criticise what is being done now, and have remained for the most part silent. It seems to me that there are an extraordinary number of changes and Amendments which are being brought forward at this stage by the Government spokesmen, cartainly far more than I can recollect on any similar Measure. We are told that they are only drafting Amendments, that it is only a question of words. I do not know how my hon. Friends who have been at the Committee are placed, but I, who have not had close touch with the Bill up to now, am not able to decide whether they are Amendments of words only or Amendments of substance until after you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, have put them from the Chair and have declared that "the Ayes have it." You get through the reading of these Amendments with a celerity that is very admirable, but somewhat disturbing to an hon. Member like myself.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

It is not in order, I think, to praise the action of the Chair.

Mr. MAXTON

There is a further Amendment on the Paper, which is something more than a mere Amendment of words. I refer to the Amendment which entitles—

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

The Amendment under discussion relates to the annual value of all lands and heritages for the purposes of all rates, other than water rates leviable under a local Act.

Mr. MAXTON

I am anticipating our proceedings, but I will show the connection between the Amendment to which I wish to refer and the Amendment now before the House if you will allow me to conclude this part of my speech. I allude to the Amendment which proposes to give to private owners of property and their agents a payment of 5 per cent., or 1s. in the pound, on the rates which they collect. At this last stage of the Bill, to insert an Amendment which is to put public moneys into the hands of private tax gatherers is a most vicious principle,

and one which has been denounced from Bible times. I want to see that Clause effectively opposed, and for that reason I do not think that we should allow this particular Amendment, which the Lord Advocate regards as merely a drafting Amendment, to go without a Division, because the Division will give us time to think over some the other Amendments. Time has not been available while we have been rushing through pages 2112 and 2113 of the Order Paper. I therefore propose to oppose this Amendment and to carry it to a, Division.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 171; Noes, 70.

Division No. 501.] AYES. [6.12 p.m.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Fairfax, Captain J. G. MacIntyre, Ian
Albery, Irving James Falle, Sir Bertram G. McLean, Major A.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Fielden, E B. McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Astbury, Lieut. Commander F. W. Finburgh, S. Macquisten, F. A.
Atholl, Duchess of Ford, Sir P. J. Margesson. Captain D.
Atkinson, C. Forrest, W. Merriman, F. B.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Foster, Sir Harry S. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Mitchell. W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Balniel, Lord Fraser. Captain Ian Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Galbraith, J. F. W. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Berry, Sir George Ganzoni, Sir John Moore, Sir Newton J.
Betterton, Henry B. Gates, Percy Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Murchison. C. K.
Blundell. F N Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Boothby, R. J. G Gower, Sir Robert Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Grace, John Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.) O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Grant, Sir J. A. Penny, Frederick George
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Greene, W. P. Crawford Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Brittain, Sir Harry Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Grotrian, H. Brent Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Gunston, Captain D. W. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Price, Major C. W. M.
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Hanbury, C. Ramsden, E.
Bullock, Captain M. Harrison, G. J. C. Reid. D. D. (County Down)
Burman. J. B. Haslam, Henry C. Rentoul, G. S.
Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Hawke, John Anthony Ropner, Major L.
Butler, Sir Geoffrey Henderson, Capt. R.R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Campbell, E. T. Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H, (Ox. Univ.) Hills, Major John Walter Sandeman A. Stewart
Chapman, Sir S. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Scott, sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) Shepperson, E. W.
Christie, J. A. Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'l'nd, Whiteh'n) Skelton, A. N.
Clarry, Reginald George Hurd, Percy A. Smithers. Waldron
Clayton, G. C. Hurst. Gerald B. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Cobb, Sir Cyril Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Sprot, Sir Alexander
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Jacob A. E. Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.)
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Cope. Major William Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Scott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Kindersley, Major Guy M. Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) King, Captain Henry Douglas Sueter. Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Curzon, Captain Viscount Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Templeton, W. P.
Davies, Dr. Vernon Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Dean, Arthur Wellesley Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
Eden, Captain Anthony Loder, J. de V. Tinne, J. A.
Edmondson, Major A. J. Lord, Walter Greaves Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Ellis, H. G. Lougher, L. Wallace, Captain D. E.
Elveden, Viscount Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vera Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Watson. Sir F. (Pudsay and Otlay)
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Lynn, Sir R. J Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Everard, W. Lindsay Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Walls, S. R.
Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple Wise, Sir Fredric Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Withers, John James
Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Wolmer, viscount TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Womersley, W. J. Major Hennessy and Mr. F. C.
Thomson.
NOES.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hirst, G. H. Saklatvala, Shapurji
Ammon, Charles George Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Scrymgeour, E,
Baker, Walter Hutchison, G. A.Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Balfour, George ([...]ampstead) John, William (Rhondda, West) Sitch, Charles H.
Batey, Joseph Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Bromfield, William Kelly, W. T. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Bromley, J. Lansbury, George Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Buchanan, G. Lawrence, Susan Stamford, T. W.
Charleton, H. C. Lawson, John James Stephen, Campbell
Cluse, W. S. Lee, F, Sullivan, J.
Clynes, Right Hon. John R. Lowth, T. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Connolly, M. Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) March, S. Thurtle, Ernest
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, North) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Day, Colonel Harry Naylor, T. E. Viant, S. P.
Dennison, R. Oliver, George Harold Wallhead, Richard C.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Palin, John Henry Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Greenall, D. H. (Glamorgan) Paling, W, Westwood, J.
Grundy, T. W. Ponsonby, Arthur Whiteley. W.
Hall, F, (York, W. R., Normanton) Potts, John S. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Purcell, A. A. Windsor, Walter
Hardie, George D. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hayday, Arthur Ritson, J.
Henderson, T, (Glasgow) Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Ellane) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Mr. T. Johnston and Mr. Maxton.

Further Amendments made:

In page 8, line 40, leave out the words "for Scotland," and insert instead thereof the words "of State";

In page 9, line 5, leave out the words "total or."—[Sir J. Gilmour.]

Mr. MacIntyre

I beg to move, in page 9, line 8, to leave out the words "in effect not less than," and to insert instead thereof the words "as near as may be the same as."

This is consequential on the Amendment already agreed to.

Mr. R. MacDONALD

I beg to second the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

The LORD ADVOCATE

I beg to move, in page 9, line 14, at the end, to insert the words or to that given by the proviso to Section two hundred and sixty-seven of the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892, or the proviso to Section two of the Burgh Sewerage, Drainage, and Water Supply (Scotland) Act, 1901, which provisos are repealed by this Act. The two provisos referred to in this Amendment make the water rate charged in the case of shops only one quarter of the rental. In the ease of the water rates which are laid down under public general legislation, the Bill already repeals this relief, and following what we have done with regard to similar reliefs in the case of railways and so on5 we think equally in the case of orders which are dealt with privately and under the Acts dealt with in this Clause this relief should be repealed. It is in order to bring it into line with what we have done already that I move this Amendment. In the proviso are the words but no account shall be taken of that relief to the extent to which it corresponds to that given by Section three hundred and forty-seven of the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act. We do exactly the same with water relief—shall I call it—and we are extending this repeal to private legislation, which we are dealing with under this Clause.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

I am not quite certain that I understand the effect of this Amendment. Do I understand that the existing exemption is sought to be repealed, and therefore that a new charge will be made on such subject?

The LORD ADVOCATE

This Clause deals with the modification of local legislation to bring it into line with the general provisions of the Bill, and the Secretary of State is the authority who does that, subject to representations and applications. He has to find the equivalent to the existing situation under the words "as near as may be the same as," which we have put into the Bill. These particular provisions deal with the direction of the Secretary of State. We have already put in the paragraph to which I have referred relating to the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, and this is doing the same for water rates as we have done for other rates.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

There is a distinction between what is done in Committee and what is done on Report. What I have to be clear about is whether this will bring under rating some subject hitherto exempt.

The LORD ADVOCATE

It does not bring in any fresh subject. It will affect the amount of rate on particular subjects. It is a question of the relative incidence of the rates, but it renders no fresh subject liable to rates.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

I understand that it will increase the charge on certain subjects. Will it have that effect?

The LORD ADVOCATE

It will affect the incidence of rating.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

I am afraid this cannot be done on Report of this Bill, and therefore I cannot take the Amendment now.

Lieut.-Colonel THOM

I beg to move, in page 9, line 15, to leave out the words "Notice of every," and to insert instead thereof the words "Any authority or person making."

This is a purely drafting Amendment, and I move it formally.

Lieut.-Commander BURNEY

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. BUCHANAN

I only desire to know whether this is purely a drafting Amendment.

The LORD ADVOCATE

Yes.

Amendment agreed to.

Lieut.-Colonel THOM

I beg to move, in page 9, line 16, to leave out the words "be given," and to insert instead thereof the words "give notice of such application."

This is also a drafting Amendment.

Lieut.-Colonel MOORE

I beg to second the Amendment.

Captain BENN

May I ask how it comes about that the drafting of this Bill is left in the hands of the hon. and gallant Member for Dumbartonshire (Lieut.-Colonel Thom), and is not in the hands of the Government. I can quite understand the hon. and gallant Member moving subsequent Amendments to an Amendment he has persuaded the House to accept, but it is rather strange that the Government have entrusted the improvement of the phraseology of this Bill to one of their own supporters.

Amendment agreed to.

Lieut.-Colonel THOM

I beg to move, in page 9, line 22, to leave out from the word "may" to the end of the Subsection, and to insert instead thereof the words within one month after the date of the first notice in the said newspaper lodge objections with the Secretary of State with respect to the proposed Order. This also is a drafting Amendment.

Lieut.-Colonel MOORE

I beg to second the Amendment.

The LORD ADVOCATE

It is quite true that this is only a drafting Amendment, but I am afraid I cannot accept it. With reference to what the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn) has said regarding the Amendments which have been moved, if he had suggested any drafting Amendment which would give better words than those in the Bill, I should equally have accepted it. As to this particular Amendment, I prefer the language in the Bill. The Amendment is really restating in another form and in other words what is in the Bill already, and I prefer the language of the Bill.

Mr. BUCHANAN

I cannot see why any advertising should take place at all in connection with this matter. The hon. and gallant Member for Dumbartonshire (Lieut.-Colonel Thom) is trying to safeguard the rights of the public. I can understand why there should be an advertisement in the "Edinburgh Gazette," but I do not know why it should be made compulsory.

Mr. STEPHEN

The Lord Advocate will, no doubt, have noticed the words in Sub-section (4)— Notice of every application for an Order under this Section shall be given once weekly for at least two successive weeks in a news- paper circulating in the district of the authority by whom the relative rate is leviable. I ask him to see that the newspaper which is chosen for this purpose is one produced under trade union conditions.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment made:

In page 9, line 23, leave out the words "for Scotland," and insert instead thereof the words "of State."—[Sir J. Gilmour.]

The LORD ADVOCATE

I beg to move, in page 9, line 25, at the end, to insert the words Where objections are so lodged with respect to any proposed Order the authority or other person applying for the Order and the authority or other person by whom the objections are lodged shall be entitled to make representation to the Secretary of State. This Amendment carries out a promise which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) during the Committee stage, and I think it meets what he had in view.

Captain BENN

I would like to express my thanks for the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 9, line 36, after the second word "the," insert the word "annual. In line 39, leave out the word "said," and insert instead thereof the word "annual."—[Lieut.-Colonel Thom.]

Mr. MACQUISTEN

I beg to move, m page 9, line 42, at the end, to insert the words (7) The Secretary of State may at any time after five years from the passing of this Act on the application of any association or body representing any class of lands and heritages set out in the First Schedule to this Act by Order direct that the amount of deduction of such class as provided by the said Schedule shall be altered to such extent as he may think proper, and such alteration shall thereafter have effect as if it had been provided and enacted in this Act. Provided—

  1. (a) that, when any such application has been dealt with as aforesaid, it shall not be competent to make another application in respect of the same class of lands and heritages until the expiry of five years from the date of the determination by the Secretary of State;
  2. (b) the Secretary of State, before making any such Order as aforesaid, shall by 614 means of an inquiry or otherwise, as he may determine, afford an opportunity to associations or bodies representing other classes of lands and heritages to be heard regarding any such application as aforesaid in relation to its effect upon such other classes."
This is an Amendment of considerable substance. It will be seen that the First Schedule relates to deductions from gross annual value of certain classes of lands and heritages for the purposes of rates. It is not advisable that these rates and deductions should be fixed and immovable for all time and that it should be left solely to Parliament to alter them. It ought to be within the power of the Secretary of State for Scotand for the time being to receive applications made to him under Clause 8, and, after due inquiry, to allow a variation in the percentage of deduction allowed. That is a sound proposal. As I said on a previous Amendment proposed from the other side, after you have allowed a thing to go on for a generation it is very difficult to alter it, and you may be doing a greater injustice by altering or endeavouring to remedy what was origiNally thought to he an injustice, if you do it at a time when all the people origiNally affected are off the face of the earth. There are, in this connection, instances where it is possible that there will be a complete change in the reasons for giving abatements. For example, you find land and heritages forming part of the undertaking of an electricity undertaking. They are getting a very substantial abatement. That is largely because of the heavy cost of laying the mains.

It is possible that, with the development of scientific knowledge, and possibly under the new Electricity Supply Bill—though many of us think that that Bill is more likely to stereotype things than to lead to improvement—in a few years' time electricity will be transmitted wirelessly. The result will be that electricity undertakings will be in a different position entirely in connection with the percentages of deduction to be allowed for them. To suggest that we should come to Parliament every time there is to be a variation of the rates is to suggest the using of a steam roller to crack a nut. It would be a mistake. The change ought to be made possible by an administrative Act, after an inquiry by the Secretary of State for Scotland. It may be said that the Scottish Office would be besieged by people who would be always trying to get their percentages altered. I have provided for that by making it a condition that the arrangement is to exist for five years. That is the period in London for the revision periodically of valuations. I do not think that the Secretary for Scotland need be alarmed at the possibility of there being constant attempts to make changes and variations, because he would have to hold an inquiry, and for that he would probably have to instruct members of the legal profession, who as a rule do not act for nothing, and he might have to call skilled witnesses, who are even more expensive. I demur from the cast-iron system of deduction which is set up in the Bill. It would be more consonant with modern practice if there were a certain amount of elasticity.

Lieut.-Colonel THOM

I beg to second the Amendment.

The LORD ADVOCATE

I regret that the Government cannot accept the Amendment. It may well he that in the course of years these deductions, which are fixed on the basis of our present experience, by natural evolution or otherwise, may come to be unsuitable. But two things must be remembered. In the first place we are now fixing deductions, not for each parish, but for the whole of Scotland. Secondly, you can never consider a proposed alteration of a deduction which is allowable to one particular class of heritages without considering it in relation to all the other classes as well. If we have learned one thing in dealing with this Bill in Committee and here, it is how very difficult it is, and how at every turn you are confronted with this question of relative incidence in considering these deductions. That being so, in the first place it is quite clear that five years is not nearly long enough. Secondly, it seems to me that the appropriate body or person to consider these changes is Parliament itself, and not a mere Department, however well presided over by such a Secretary of State as my right hon. and gallant Friend. I am not at all sure that he would welcome this duty if it were put upon him. Accordingly, we take the same view as we took in Committee, that this is not appropriate to the class of subject with which we are dealing here. It is far too big and difficult a subject to be dealt with in any such periodical or Departmental manner as the Amendment suggests.

Mr. HARDIE

I would like the Lord Advocate to make clear what is contained in Sub-section (6) of the Clause. The question of a basic number of years is a very difficult subject. Let us remember the big changes that are being carried through now with the help of public money. We have great public roads being made or improved, and at the end of 18 months there will be stretches of roads so valuable that on every side the rateable value will increase. Where there is no property the feuing will increase, and where there is property the values will increase. Does the Lord Advocate think that there is anything in the Bill which will bring back to the public the values which it has created by the money it has expended in improvements? That seems to me to be the basis upon which we should have rates, and not the fixing of a number of years. If you fix a number of years what is to happen? Every pound of public money spent on doing something that is necessary increases the values of land and property, and you allow those values to go into the hands of those who have done nothing to create them. That is most unjust. I am sorry that as I was a member of the Standing Committee on the Electricity (Supply) Bill, I was not able to attend the meeting of the Standing Committee which dealt with this Bill. This was one of the subjects about which I was concerned. Can anything be done now to safeguard the results, in the form of increasing values, that come from the expenditure of public money?

Mr. SULLIVAN

I wish to support the Amendment. It is a bad thing to have these percentages stereotyped for all time. It may happen that property will increase in value, and it is only right and proper that there should be a periodical revision of the percentages.

Mr. STEPHEN

I am rather surprised at the position which has been taken up by the Mover of the Amendment and by the Government. I am inclined to believe that the Mover of the Amendment has forgotten the advice of a great Lord Chancellor whom he quoted to us to-day. He informed us that people desire to know definitely what is the position, even though it is not what they like. In moving this Amendment, the hon. and learned Member seems to have forgotten his own advice.

Mr. MACQUISTEN

In the course of my remarks I said that what I wanted was to prevent the same situation arising as had arisen on a previous Amendment.

Mr. STEPHEN

The hon. and learned Member has forgotten the first speech that he made on this Bill to-day. It is that speech to which I was referring. If he looks at the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow he will be a little more chary about handing out the advice of a Lord Chancellor. I am surprised at the attitude of the Government to the Amendment. It is apparent that there is need for the revision of these figures from time to time. It may be that the method suggested by the Amendment is not the most suitable, but it certainly would seem that in a, developing society there should be, instead of the cumbersome process of putting a Measure through this House, some way of considering the figures relative to the condition of different industries at different times. I am surprised that the Secretary of State for Scotland should be so distrustful of the future holders of that office. I can scarcely take it that he is distrustful of himself. I believe that would be going too far even for the present holder of this honourable office. But evidently he has little faith in the life of his own Government, and we can sympathise with him in that respect. He is afraid that when the five years elapse the Secretary of State of the time may be a man with broad and progressive ideas, concerned about the prosperity of the mass of the people of Scotland, and such a man might use the period of revision in a way which would be harmful to Tory interests. I asked the Secretary for Scotland to have more trust in the future holders of the office which he occupies temporarily—very temporarily. If the proposal in the Amendment does not meet the situation, the Government might offer some suggestion on their own part and bring it forward in that other place which is beloved by Tory Governments, so as to deal with what is evidently a point of importance.

Mr. BUCHANAN

I can hardly agree with the hon. Members on this side who have spoken on this matter, and I would like hon. Members to realise what the Amendment proposes to do. The Amendment says that these applications are to be made by any association or body representing any class of lands and heritage set out in the First Schedule to this Act. The hon. and learned Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macquisten) constantly denounces amalgamations and such like. He prefers individual initiative, but in this Amendment he shuts out any individual from making an application under his proposal. Only groups or bodies or associations or trusts are to be allowed to apply for revision. This right is only to be granted to people who consolidate themselves into amalgamations or trusts and thus the proposal is a reversal of everything which the hon. and learned Member has argued in this House on other occasions. Furthermore, the Amendment states that these Orders are only to be made after an inquiry has been held by the Secretary of State for Scotland. The hon. and learned Member does not suggest what kind of inquiry is to take place. I ask him to imagine himself as Secretary of State for Scotland—that will he beyond his happiest dreams. Supposing large groups or associations representing, say, the shale mineowners who think they are over-rated, or the steel smelters who think they are over-rated, or any of the other bodies who think they are over-rated come to the Secretary of State of Scotland and say, "We think the time has come for a readjustment of the abatement and an inquiry ought to be held." One cannot expect that the Secretary for Scotland himself is to hold such an inquiry but the Amendment presents no alternative. It does not say that such a request is to be remitted to the three persons who may hold inquiries into provisional orders. The poor Secretary for Scotland must do it himself and must neglect every other duty to hold these inquiries. The Secretary of State for Scotland has more official duties placed upon him than any other Member of the Government. He is Home Secretary, Education Minister and Health Minister and I have heard him described as the "Pooh Bab" of the present Government. Now the hon. and learned Member for Argyllshire suggests that he is to hold an inquiry of this kind when any association demands it. The proposal has only to be examined for three seconds in order to be laughed out of court.

When certain Members on this side express the view that the Amendment is a reasonable proposal they forget that it is a one-sided proposal. It only gives to associations who have interests in manufacturing processes or in lands and heritages the right to have such an inquiry. No such power is to be granted, for instance, to associations of ratepayers who are tenants of property. To limit the proposal in this way is altogether wrong. There are other bodies outside those specified in the First Schedule who may be equally concerned and who may have an equal right in this respect. I agree there is a case in favour of the view that five years would appear to be a reasonable period within which alterations might be made or some inquiry held but I think the hon. and learned Member for Argyllshire came much nearer the mark in his earlier speech when he said that our whole incidence of taxation, our whole method of raising taxation, both land taxation and local Income Tax, all required review. The position will not be remedied by the Amendment, but by an inquiry into the whole rating system of Scotland. This proposal merely throws the responsibility on the Secretary for Scotland and allows this right only to certain big ratepayers, and I am surprised at Members on this side supporting it, because if these bodies get the adjustments for which they seek, other people who are not in those associations will have to pay for it.

I hope the Lord Advocate will continue to resist the Amendment which appears on the surface to have something to commend it. I can understand the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) being led away by it. That is due to his Christian charity. I can also understand the hon. Member for Bothwell (Mr. Sullivan) being deceived. I know how easy it is to be led away by the hon. and learned Member for Argyllshire, whom I have heard speaking before a jury and securing the acquittal of an accused man by his blandishments. The hon. and learned Member's North-Country accent lends itself to those blandishments, but I hope the Lord Advocate, practised as he is in legal affairs, knowing and understanding criminals as he does after a long period in the Law Courts of Scotland, knowing lawyers as he does—even more intimately than I and my constituents know them, and we know them fairly well—will resist this Amendment and will not be troubled by the apparently united front presented in favour of it. I happen to be on his side on this particular occasion.

Mr. SCRYMGEOUR

It strikes me that this Bill does not get down to the real question of the interest of the people and the proposal in the Amendment is really in favour of affording facilities to those who, in a collective capacity, can bring special influence to bear on the Government. It is gratifying to find the Lord Advocate opposing the Amendment, and I hope that he will be steadfast in his opposition, which is consistent with the general line he has taken on the Bill. The hon. and learned Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macquisten) is not so fond of applications to the electors, and we have in this Bill illustrations of one or two changes which have been made because of pressure brought to bear in the interest of capitalists, whereas other undertakings which have practical connection with control by public authorities are set aside. If there is to be any revision, it ought to be a revision of the whole concern.

Amendment negatived.