HC Deb 23 November 1926 vol 200 cc345-72

I beg to move, in pave 11, to leave out lines 5 to 12, inclusive.

This is a matter of great importance. Here is a definition of His Majesty's Dominions—


I might say I think it would be for the convenience of the House that this Amendment and the next should be discussed together. We can have a Division separately on each, but they might be discussed together.


I was suggesting to the House that this might lead to serious international complications, because you cannot hope that this Bill will be merely for local consumption. It must be widely read as it has an effect, not only on our industries but on every country throughout the world, and we can assume that this Bill will be carefully serutinised and examined by the Foreign Offices, Consuls and traders in every country and State. I should like to call the attention of the House to the very novel definition of His Majesty's Dominions in the Bill. It says His Majesty's Dominions' includes territories under His Majesty's protection, and such, if any, of the territories which are mandated to us on behalf of the League of Nations. Of course, the first part of this definition is not open to the same serious objection, but I can understand such a State as Zanzibar, where the Sultan flies his own flag at Mombasa, very touch objecting to being regarded as part of His Majesty's Dominions. But when we come to the suggestion that the mandated territories are part of Iris Majesty's Dominions then we are trespassing on dangerous grounds. It goes against the spirit of the League of Nations. We hold these territories on trust, and the whole idea is that these States, at any rate while they are under our mandatory control should—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] I can understand hon. Members opposite interrupting, as they have great contempt for the League of Nations, but I am certainly not going to be shouted down. It was laid down in the Treaty of Versailles and in all regulations of the League of Nations that the mandated territories were not to be regarded as parts of the country which was responsible for their administration. They were to be administered on behalf of the League of Nations and the League was to retain control. There is, of course a Committee responsible direct to the League for the welfare and administration of these mandated territories.

The various countries which have taken over these trusts and responsibilities report to this Mandates Committee, and from time to time the administration is scrutinised, reported on and discussed at the League meetings at Geneva, both in the Council and in the general meetings. I say that to introduce in a Bill of this character a new principle of this kind requires a good deal of explanation and justification. I do not think that any of the other countries, either France or any other State, who have taken over these responsibilities, have followed a course of this kind or have even suggested that these territories are part of their Empire or country. We have been assured from time to time that Iraq is quite an independent State and has its own King and Constitution and makes its own laws, and that we are merely acting as advisers on their policy and assisting them in building up a State which is completely independent. Under this definition to which I have referred Iraq is to be regarded as part of His Majesty's Dominions. I say that these words are objectionable and likely to give offence, and to do our reputation harm and injure our relations with the mandated territories, and, above all, that they seem to indicate that this country is going against the whole spirit of the League of Nations and the Treaty of Versailles, and by a side wind is going to take an opportunity to try and regard these territories as part of His Majesty's Dominions. For these reasons I hope these words will be omitted, and if, for purposes of business, some such words are required, I hope they will be in a different form.


I beg to second the Amendment.


The hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) has told us that a similar

procedure to that of which he speaks has not been carried out in other Acts of Parliament, but it has been carried out in matters of finance ever since 1919. Instead of repeating the same words in every line of the Bill, we have a Definition Clause, and "His Majesty's Dominions" is in the Definition Clause. Power is taken by Order in Council to give to mandated territories the same benefits which are extended to the Dominions and Colonies of the British Empire. That, surely, is a reasonable thing to do. The hon. Gentleman need not he afraid that. this runs counter to the Treaty of Versailles or to the Covenant of the League of Nations, because, ever since 1619—and it is provided in the Finance Act of that year—there has been exactly a parallel provision in the matter of finance to that which we are now proposing. The Finance Act, 1919, established Imperial Preference, and it provided that there should be power by Order in Council to extend that to the mandated territories.


Is it not quite a different thing, to say that preference should be given to the mandated territories from saying that His Majesty's Dominions are included?


The words "His Majesty's Dominions" are used constantly in these Bills, and it is really fantastic to suggest to the House—[HON. MEMBERS "Withdraw!"]—I will substitute the word unreasonable," and say it is unreasonable for the hon. Member to suggest that, for convenience of definition, we cannot adopt this very convenient form of words.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'and' in line 6 stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 232; Noes, 97.

Division No. 493.] AYES. [10.9 p.m.
Acland Troyte, Lieut. Colonel Balniel, Lord Bowyer, Captain G. E. W
Albery, Irving James Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Braithwaite. A. N.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Barnett, Major Sir Richard Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Cilve
Applin, Colonel R, V. K. Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Briggs, J. Harold
Apsley. Lord Bethel, A. Briscoe, Richard George
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Betterton, Henry B. Brittain, Sir Harry
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Breun-Lindsay, Major H.
Astor, Viscountess Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Brown, Brig.Gen.H.C(Berks,Newb'y)
Atholl, Duchess of Boothby, R. J. G. Buckingham. Sir H.
Baldwin, R1. Hon. Stanley Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Bullock, Captain M.
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vanelttart Burman, J. B.
Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Hartington, Marquess of Price, Major C. W. M.
Burton, Colonel H. W. Harvey, G (Lambeth, Kennington) Radford, E. A.
Butler, Sir Geoffrey Harvey. Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Raine. W.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Haslam, Henry C. Rawson, Sir Cooper
Campbell, E. T. Hawke, John Anthony Rees, Sir Beddoc
Cassels, J. D. Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Reid. Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.) Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Remer, J. R.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Herbert, Dennis (Hertlord, Watford) Remnant, Sir James
Chapman, Sir S. Herbert.S.(York, N.R. Scar. & Wh'b) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Charteris. Brigadier-General J. Hills, Maior John Waller Ropner, Major L.
Chilcott, Sir Warden Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Christie, J. A. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St.Marylebone) Russell. Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Holt, Captain H. P. Rye, F. G.
Clarry, Reginald George Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Samuel. A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Sandeman, A. Stewart
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K. Hudson. Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney.N.) Sandon, Lord
Cooe. Major William Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Courthope. Lieut.-Col. Sir Grorge L. Illffe. Sir Edward M Savery, S. S.
Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn., N.) Jackson. Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew,W)
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Jephcott, A. R. Sheffield. Sir Berkeley
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Kidd. J. (Linlithgow) Shepperson. E. W.
Crookshank. Col. C. de W. (Berwick) King, Captain Henry Douglas Skelton, A. N.
Citron, Captain Viscount Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Smith. R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Dalkeith. Earl of Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Smithers. Waldron
Dalziel, Sir Davison Little. Dr. E. Graham Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Davies, Mai. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil) Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Sprot, Sir Alexander
Davies, Dr. Vernon Loder, J. da V. Stanley. Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Dawson, Sir Philip Lord, Walter Greaves. Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Dean, Arthur Wellesley Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Stanley. Hon O. F. G. (Westm'eland
Drewe, C. Luce. Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Storry-Deans, R.
Duckworth, John MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Eden, Captain Anthony Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Streatleild, Captain S. R.
Edmonson, Major A. J. Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Stuart. Crichton-. Lord C
Elliot, Major Walter E. McLean, Major A. Sueter. Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Ellis, R. G. Macmillan, Captain H. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Elveden, Viscount Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Templeton, W. P.
England. Colonel A. McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Erskine. Lord (Somerset,Weston-s.-M.) MacRobert, Alexander M. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell
Everard, W. Lindsay Maitland. Sir Arthur D. steel. Tinne, J. A.
Falle, Sir Bertram G. Matone, Major P. B. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Fielden. E. B. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Ford. Sir P. J. Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. Waddington, R.
Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Meller, R. J. Wallace, Captain D. E.
Forrest, W. Merriman, F. B. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Foster, Sir Harry S. Meyer, Sir Frank Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Mitchell. S. (Lanark, Lanark) Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Freee, Sir Walter de Mitchell. W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Watson. Rt. Hon. w. (Carlisle)
Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Monsell. Eyres. Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Watts, Or. T.
Galbraith. J. F. W. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr.) Wells. S. R.
Ganzoni, Sir John Moore, Sir Newton J. Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Gates, Percy Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple
Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Murchlson, C. K. Williams. Com. C. (Devon. Torquay)
Goff, Sir Park Neville, R. J. Windsor-Cllve, Lieut.-Colonel Gsorpe
Gower, Sir Robert Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Grace, John Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Wise, Sir Fredrlc
Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.) Nuttali, Ellis Wolmer, Viscount
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Wood, B. C. (Somerset. Bridgwater)
Greene. W. P. Crawford Oman, Sir Charles William C. wood, E. (Cnester, staly'b'ge & Hydo)
Grotrian, H. Brent Penny, Frederick George Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Perkins, Colonel E. K Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) Perring, Sir William George Wragg. Herbert
Hammersley, S. S. Peto. Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Hanbury, C. Pielou, O. P.
Hannan, Patrick Joseph Henry Power, Sir John Cecil TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Harrison, G. J. C. Pownall. Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain Margesson.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Cove, W. G. Gosling, Harry
Ammon, Charles George Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Attlee, Clement Richard Crawfurd, H. E. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Baker, Walter Dalton, Hugh Groves, T
Barnes, A. Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Grundy, T. W.
Batey, Joseph Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Bromfield, William Day, Colonel Harry Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Bromley, J. Dennison, R, Hardie, George D.
Buchanan, G. Dunnico, H. Hayday, Arthur
Charleton, H. C. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Hayes, John Henry
Clowes, S. Gardner, J. P. Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Cluse, W. S. Gibbins, Joseph Hirst, G. H.
Connolly, M. Gillett, George M. Hore-Belisha, Leslie
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Palin, John Henry Sullivan, Joseph
Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Paling, W. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Ponsonby, Arthur Thurtle, Ernest
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Potts. John S. Townend, A. E.
Jones, T. I, Mardy (Pontypridd) Purcell, A. A. Watts-Morgan. Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Kelly, W. T. Richardson, R. 'Houghton-le-Spring) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Kennedy, T. Riley, Ben Westwood, J.
Lansbury, George Ritson, J. Whiteley. W.
Lawrence, Susan Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R. Elland) Wiggins, William Martin
Lee. F. Scrymgeour, E. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Lindley, F. W. Scurr, John Williams, David (Swansea, E)
Lowth, T. Sexton, James Williams. T. (York, Don Valley)
Lunn, William Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Wilson C H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
MacLaren, Andrew Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Sitch. Charles H. Windsor, Walter
March. S. Smith, H. B. Lees. (Keighley) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Maxton, James Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Montague, Frederick Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Naylor, T. E. Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles Mr. Percy Harris and Sir Robert
Oliver, George Harold Stamford. T. W. Hamilton.
Owen, Major G. Stephen. Campbell

I beg to move, in page 11, line 6, to leave out from the word "protection" to the end of line 12.

I do not propose to do more than formally move this Amendment. It seems to me that it is quite improper to include in the term His Majesty's Dominions territories over which we have only a mandate. Under the Bill it would he quite in order to mark, say, Mesopotamia figs as Empire produce.


This is precisely the same Amendment as that upon which the House has just divided, and the right hon. Gentleman will therefore acquit me of any discourtesy if I say no more about it.

Question put. "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 239; Noes, 95.

Division No. 494.] AYES. [10.20 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Chapman, Sir S. Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Albery, Irving James Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Galbraith, J. F. W.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Chilcott, Sir Warden Ganzoni, Sir John
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Christie, J. A. Gates, Percy
Apsley, Lord Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Clarry, Reginald George Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Cochrane. Commander Hon. A. D. Goff, Sir Park
Astor, Viscountess Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K. Gower, Sir Robert
Atholl, Duchess of Cope. Major William Grace, John
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Graham Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.)
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Cowan. Sir Wm. Henry (Islington,N.) Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Balniel, Lord Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Greene, W. P. Crawford
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Grotrian, H. Brent
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Guest. Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.(Bristol, N.)
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Curzon, Captain Viscount Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Bethel, A. Dalkeith. Earl of Hacking. Captain Douglas H.
Betterton, Henry B. Dalziel, Sir Davison Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastb'rne)
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Hammersley. S. S.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Davies, Dr. Vernon Hanbury,C.
Blundell, F. N. Dawson, Sir Philip Hannor, Patrick Joseph Henry
Boothby, R. J. G. Dean, Arthur Wellesley Harrison, G. J. C.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Drawe, c. Hartington, Marquess of
Braithwaite, A. N. Duckworth. John Harvey G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Eden, Captain Anthony Harvey Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Briggs, J. Harold Edmondson, Major A. J. Haslam, Henry C.
Briscoe, Richard George Elliot, Major Walter E. Hawke. John Anthony
Brittain, Sir Harry Ellis. R. G. Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Elveden, Viscount Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Brown,Brig.-Gen H.C. (Berks, Newb'y) England, Colonel A. Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Buckingham. Sir H. Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s.-M.) Herbert. Dennis (Hertford. Watford)
Bullock, Captain M. Everard. W. Lindsay Herbert, S. (York, N.R. Scar. & Wh'by)
Burman, J. S. Falle, Sir Bertram G. Hills, Major John Waller
Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Fielden, E. B. Hoare. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Burton, Colonel H. W. Finburgh, S. Hogg. Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)
Butler, Sir Geoffrey Ford, Sir P. J. Holt. Captain H. P
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Campbell, E. T. Forrest, W. Hope. Sir Harry (Forfar)
Cassels, J. D Foster, Sir Harry S. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney.N.)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(prtsmth.S.) Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Frece, Sir Walter de Iliffe. Sir Edward M.
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Jephcott, A. P. Penny, Frederick George Stroatfeild, Captain S. R.
Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Perkins, Colonel E. K. Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
King. Captain Henry Douglas Perring, Sir William George Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Peto. Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Lister, Cunliffe. Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Plelou, D. p. Templeton, W. P.
Little,' Dr. E. Graham Power, Sir John Cecil Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Lloyd. Cyril E. (Dudley) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Loder, J. de V. Price, Major C. W. M. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Lord, Walter Greaves- Radford, E. A. Tinne, J. A.
Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vert Raine, W. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Luce, Maj. Gen. Sir Richard Harman Rawson, Sir Cooper Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Rees, Sir Beddoe Waddington, R.
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (l. of W.) Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Wallace, Captain D. E.
Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Reid. O. D. (County Down) Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
McLean, Ma)or A. Renter, J. R. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Macmillan, Captain H. Remnant, Sir James Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Watson. Rt. Hon. w. (Carlisle)
McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford) Watts, Dr. T.
Macquisten, F. A. Ropner, Major L. Wells, S. R.
MacRobert, Alexander M. Ruggles-Brise. Major E. A Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple
Malone, Major P. B. Rye, F G. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall. Northern)
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Samuel. A. M. (Surrey. Farnham) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Meller. R. J. Sandeman, A. Stewart Williams. C. P. (Denbigh. Wrexham)
Merriman, F. B. Sandon, Lord Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Meyer. Sir Frank Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl
Mitchell, S. (Lanark. Lanark) Savery, S. S. Wise. Sir Fredric
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Welden) Shaw, Lt.-Col, A. D.Mcl.(Renfrew, W.) Wolmer. Viscount
Monsell. Eyres. Com. Rt. Hon. B. M Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Womersley, W J.
Moore. Lieut. -Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr; Shepperson, E. W. Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Moore, Sir Newton J. Skelton, A. N. Wood. E.(Chest'r. Stalvb'dge & Hyde)
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine.C! Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Smithers, Waldron Woodcock, Colonel H. C-
Morrison. C. K. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Wragg, Herbert
Neville. R. J. Sprot, Sir Alexander Yerburgh. Major Robert 0. T.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F. (Will'sden, E.)
Newton. Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge! Stanley, Lord (Fylde) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Nuttall, Ellis Stanley. Hon. O. F.G. (Westm'eland) Captain Margesson and Captain
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedlord, Luton) Storry-Deans, A. Bowyer.
Adamson. w. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hardie, George D. Riley, Ben
Ammon. Charles Georqe Harris. Percy A. Ritson. J.
Attlee. Clement Richard Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Robinson, w. C. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)
Baker. Walter Haydny, Arthur Scrymgeour, E.
3arnes. A. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Scurr, John
Batey. Joseph Hirst, G. H. Sexton, James
Bromfield, William Hore-Belisha, Leslie Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Bromley, J. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Buchanan, G. Johnston. Thomas (Dundee) Sitch. Charles H.
Charleton. H. C. Jones. Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Smith. H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Clowes. S. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Smith, Ronnie (Penistone)
Cluse, W. S. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
Connolly, M. Kelly, W. T. Stamford, T. W.
Cove. W G. Kennedy, T. Stenhen, Campbell
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lansbury, George Sullivan, J.
Crawfurd, H. E. Lawrence, Susan Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Dalton, Hugh Lee. F. Thurtle, Ernest
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Lindley. F. W. Townend, A. E.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lowth, T. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Day, Colonel Harry Lunn, William Webb. Rt. Hon. Sidney
Dennison, R. Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Westwood, J.
Dunnico, H. March. S. Whiteley, W.
Gardner, J. P. Maxton, James Wiggins, William Martin
Gibbins. Joseph Montague, Frederick Williams, David (Swansea, E.)
Gillett. George M. Naylor, T. E. Williams. T. (York, Don Vatley)
Gosling. Harry Oliver, George Harold Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Owen. Major G. Wilton, R. J. (Jarrow)
Greenall. D. R. (Glamorgan) Palin. John Henry Windsor. Walter
Groves, T. Paling, W. Young, Robert (Lancaster. Newton)
Grundy, T. W. Pontonby. Arthur
Hall. F. (York. W.R. Normanton) Potts, John S. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hall. G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Pureed, A. A. Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.
Hamilton, Sir R.(Orkney & Shetland) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Hayes.

I beg to move, in page 11, line 15, to leave out from the word "undergone," to the end of line 17, and to insert instead thereof the words in the United Kingdom any treatment or process resulting in a substantial change in the goods. This is a drafting Amendment, moved in accordance with an undertaking which I gave in Committee. The definition of "imported goods" was fully discussed, and it was generally agreed that paragraph (a) should be brought into line with paragraph (b), and this Amendment does that.

Amendment agreed to.


I beg to move, in page 11, line 15, after the words last inserted, to insert the words provided that the assembling or setting tip of parts of any manufactured article shall not be held to be a substantial change within the meaning of this Section. This is the Clause which defines "Imported goods," which are the governing words of Clause 2; in fact, that is the whole purport of this part of the Bill. If you say in paragraph (a) that certain goods are not to be held to he imported goods, they are, ipso facto, left outside the scope of the Bill. I am moving this Amendment because cabinet work imported into this country is never imported as a whole, so that it does not undergo any substantial change; it is imported in parts, which are assembled here and, very likely, french Polished also, but no Committee would say that putting together four or five parts of an article did not constitute a substantial change in that article, and, therefore, I desire to put in words expressly limiting this definition by saying that the mere assembling of goods will not constitute a substantial change. It might be conceded that, in Subsection (3) of Clause 4, power is given to the Committee to order the marking of the parts, but that Clause is a part of the Bill, and this definition Clause clearly over-rides it; the Committee can do nothing in the way of ordering the marking of parts if the definition Clause says that certain things are left entirely out of the Bill.

It might possibly be held in certain cases that all the parts which were made abroad, and which were merely assembled in this country, might be marked under an Order made under Clauso 4, but in the case of cabinet work I hold that that certainly is not so, and, to show that this is regarded as an important. matter by the cabinet trade, I may say that I have received a letter from the chairman of the Cabinet Trade Federation, in which he says that larger quantities of imparted cabinet work are coming into this country than formerly, and that these goods are undoubtedly passed off on the British public as goods of British manufacture. That being the case, as I know it is, it is quite clear that, if there is need for this Bill at all, there is certainly need for the inclusion of this particular trade. I, therefore., ask the President of the Board of Trade to accept the words I desire to insert, which could do no possible harm, and which would affect a trade which was regarding this Bill with hope, but is now regarding it with apprehension, in view of the fact that in this definition Clause words have been inserted which seem definitely to leave the whole of its products outside the scope of the Bill.


I beg to second the Amendment.

I want to call the attention of the House to the fact that it is one thing for a number of articles to undergo a process which means a substantial change, and another thing to assemble a number of parts together into a complete article when they have not undergone a substantial change b^ a manufacturing process. To enumerate a few articles to demonstrate the point I wish to make, we may have gramophones, motor cars, electric fittings, or wireless apparatus, all the parts of which may be imported from abroad, but which, when they are assembled into a manufactured article, can, as I understand the Clause, be sold as a British article. I am sure the House does not desire that a number of foreign-made parts assembled here should be sold as a British manufactured article. Time after time in these Debates it has been asserted or suggested that this is a Bill to prohibit the importation of foreign goods, but that is quite a mistake. All that the Bill dues is to ask that things which are really foreign shall be marked as foreign, so that the purchaser or consumer may know for his own satisfaction whether they are foreign or not. An article that is assembled here, of which all the component parts are made abroad, is still a foreign article. In other words, if the parts of a watch were sent over here in different cases and assembled together and said, to say they are British is really getting behind the Act. I am sure the President of the Board of Trade, in his anxiety to protect the public in this respect, will realise that this is quite distinct from the Amendment which the House has accepted.


The Committee spent a great; deal of time and trouble in getting a sound and accurate definition of imported goods. The result. has been that we have now amended paragraph (a) by general consent to bring it in conformity with (b), and I am sure my hon. Friend will appreciate that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander and if he was to extend still further protection to goods in this country he would have, naturally and logically, to extend still further the operation of (b). He is not altogether without remedy in the matter he has raised, because it will be open to those for whom he has spoken to make an application not only in respect of the completed article, but in respect of the parts, and if an order was made then under Section 4 (3) it would be for the person who assembled the parts to show that they were not of foreign origin. I hope my hon. Friend will not press the matter. I am sure we shall not improve, either in accuracy of language or in convenience of practice, the result at which we have arrived.


Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the point, and can he assure me that imported cabinet work, imported in parts and assembled in this country will be within the scope of the Bill?


I really must not be asked to pronounce judgment on such a matter. It, would be most improper for me to do so when the House has laid down that the procedure is to be by application to a Committee.


Could the existing cabinet be marked as far as its constituent parts are concerned?


I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.



Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House proceeded to a Division

There being no Member willing to act as Teller for the "Ayes," MR, SPEAKER declared that the "Noes" had it


The next Amendment, which stands in the name of the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris),£in page 11, line 24, at the end, to insert the words (c) goods which are blended or mixed after importation into the United Kingdom provided that they are marked with the word 'blended,' is covered, I think, by the Government Amendment which follows. Does the hon. Member for North Tottenham (Mr. H. Morrison) move the Amendment which stands in his name?


I beg to move in page 11, line 28, to leave out the word "words," and to insert instead thereof the word "word."

I understood the President. of the Board of Trade to say earlier that he would be prepared to accept. a modification.


I think that would be convenient. Therefore, I will accept the next four Amendments.

Captain BENN

May I ask whether a person who has to stamp the foreign article with the words showing that it is of foreign manufacture, will be entitled to add anything else? Will he be entitled to add the words, "Buy German Goods"? While he is making the die, will he be able to add the words, "German Goods are best"?


There is nothing to stop anyone from doing anything he likes in that respect. He might add the words, "Vote for the Liberal party," if he likes.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 11, line 29, leave out the words "'manufacture' or 'foreign produce.'"

In line 32, leave out the word "words," and insert the word "word."

In line 33, leave out the words "'manufacture' or 'Empire produce.'"—[Mr. Barnes.]


I beg to move, in page 11, to leave out lines 38 and 39, inclusive.

It is not possible in some cases to put the marking in a conspicuous form. These words become unnecessary.


I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not press this Amendment. Obviously, if we are to have any marking at all, let it be so that he who runs may read. Do let the marking, if it be ordered at all, be conspicuous.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 233; Noes, 99.

Division No. 495.] AYES. [10.46 p.m.
Acland-Troyle, Lieut.-Colonel Falle, Sir Bertram G. Meller, R. J.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Fielden, E. B. Merriman, F. B.
Albery, Irving James Finburgh, S. Meyer. Sir Frank
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Ford. Sir P. J. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Applin, Colonel R. V. K Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Apsley, Lord Forrest, W. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Ashley. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Foster, Sir Harry S. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Moore, Sir Newton J.
Astor, Viscountess Fraser, Captain Ian Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Atholl, Duchess of Frece, Sir Walter de Morrison H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E. Murchison, C. K.
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Gadie. Lieut.-Col. Anthony Neville, R. J.
Balniel, Lord Galbraith, J. F. w. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Ganzoni, Sir John Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Sarnett, Major Sir Richard Gates, Percy Nuttall, Ellis
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Bethel, A. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Betterton, Henry B. Goff, Sir Park Penny. Frederick George
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Gower, Sir Robert Perkins. Colonel E. K
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W, R., Skipton) Grace, John Perring, Sir William George
Blundell, F. N. Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.) Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Boothby, R. J.. G. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N Plelou. D. P.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Greene, W. p. Crawford Power, sir John Cecil
Sowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Grotrian, H. Brent. Pownall. Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton
Braithwaite, A. N. Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.(Bristol,N.) Price. Major C. W. M.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Radford, E. A.
Brings, J. Harold Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Raine, W.
Briscoe, Richard George Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R.(Eastbourne) Rawson Sir Cooper
Brittain, Sir Harry Hammersley, S. S. Rees, Sir Seddoe
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Hanbury, C. Reid. Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Brown, Brig, -Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Reid, O. D. (County Down)
Buckingham, Sir H. Harrison, G. J. C. Remer, J. R.
Bullock, Captain M. Hartington, Marquess of Remnant, Sir James
Burman, J. B, Harvey. G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Richardson. Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'tt'y)
Burney. Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Harvey. Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)
Burton, Colonel H. W. Haslam, Henry C Ropner. Major L.
Butler, Sir Geuffray Hawke, John Anthony Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Campbell. F. T Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) Rye, F. G.
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt.R.(Prtsmth,S.) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey. Farnham)
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Herbert, S. (York. N.R.Scar, & Wh'by) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Chadwick. Sir Robert Burton Kills, Major John Waller Sandeman, A. Stewart
Chapman, Sir S. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon Sir S. J. G. Sandon Lord
Chilcott, Sir Warden Hogg, Rt. Hon.Sir D.(St.Marylebone) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Christie, J. A. Holt. Captain H. P. Savery. S. S.
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Shaw, Capt. Walter (Wilts, Westb'y)
Clarry, Reginald George Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney,N.) Sheffield. Sir Berkeley
Cochrane. Commander Hon. A. D. Hiffe, Sir Edward M. Skelton. A. N.
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Cope. Major William Jephcott, A. R. Smithers, Waldron
Courtauld. Major J. S. Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn., N.) King, Captain Henry Douglas Sprot, Sir Alexander
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Kinloch-Cooke. Sir Clement Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F.(Willsden.E)
Crooke. J. Smedley (Derltend) Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Stanley Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Crookshank. Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Little. Dr. E. Graham Stirry-Deans. R.
Curzon, Captain Viscount Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Stott. Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Dalkeith. Earl of Loder, J. de V. Streatfield. Captain S. R.
Dalziel. Sir Davison Lord. Walter Greaves- Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Sueter, Rear-Admlral Murray Fraser
Davies, Dr. Vernon Luce. Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Dean. Arthur Wellesley Macdonald, Capt. P. O. (I. of W.) Templeton, W. P.
Drewe. C. Macdonald. R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Duekworth John McLean. Major A. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen. South)
Eden. Captain Anthony Macmillan, Captain H. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Edmondson. Major A. J. Macnaqhten. Hon. Sir Malcolm Tinne, J. A.
Ellis, R. G. McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Tryon. Rt. Hon. George Clement
Elveden. Viscount Macquisten. F. A. Vauqhan-Morgan Col. K. F.
England, Colonel A. Mac Robert, Alexander M. Waddington. R.
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Wallace, Captain D. E.
Everard. W. Lindsay Malone, Major p. B. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W
Fairfax, Captain J. G. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Watts, Dr. T. Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl Wragg. Herbert
wells, S. R. Wise, Sir Fredric Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. Wolmer, Viscount
White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple- Womersley, W. J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES —
Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) Captain Lord Stanley and Captain
Williams. Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Wood, E. (Chester, Staly-b'ge & Hyde) Margesson.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hardie, George D. Riley, Ben
Ammon, Charles George Harris, Percy A. Ritson. J.
Attlee, Clement Richard Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Baker, Walter Hayday, Arthur Scrymgeour, E.
Barnes, A. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Scurr, John
Batey, Joseph Hirst, G. H. Sexton, James
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hore-Beilsha, Leslie Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Bromfield, William Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Sinclair, Major sir A. (Caithness)
Bromley, J. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Sitch, Charles H.
Buchanan, G. Jones. Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Charleton, H. C. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey. Rotherhithe)
Clowes, S. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Smith, H. B.' Lees- (Keighley)
Cluse, W. S. Kelly, W. T. Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charier
Connolly, M. Kennedy, T. Stamford, T. W.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities Lansbury, George Stephen, Campbell
Crawfurd, H. E. Lawrence, Susan Sullivan, J.
Dalton, Hugh Lee, F. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Lindley, F. W. Thurtle, Ernest
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lowth, T. Townend, A. E,
Day, Colonel Harry Lunn, William Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D, (Rhondda)
Dennison, R. MacLaren, Andrew Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Duncan, C. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Wettwood, J.
Dunnico, H. March, S. Whiteley, W.
Gardner, J. P. Maxton, James Wiggins, William Martin
Gibbins. Joseph Montague, Frederick Williams, C. P. (Denbigh. Wrexham)
Gillett, George M. Naylor, T. E. Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Gosling. Harry Oliver, George Harold Williams. T. (York. Don Valley)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Owen, Major G. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Palin, John Henry Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Groves, T. Paling, W. Windsor, Walter
Grundy, T. W. Ponsonby, Arthur Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Potts, John S.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Purcell, A. A. TELLERS FOR THE NOES —
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Richardson, R. (Houuhton-le-Spring) Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Hayes.

I beg to move, in page 12, line 10, at the end, to insert the words For the purposes of this Sub-section the expression blend or mixture ' does not include any blend or mixture produced by a process of manufacture from materials of different kinds This Amendment is moved in order to safeguard a possibility not foreseen in Committee. It was discovered that the Clause as drafted might possibly he held to cover a mixture of cotton and silk which it was never intended to bring within the terms of the Clause. Therefore, this proviso is put ire to make plain what was the intention.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 12, line 14, leave out the words "a manufacturing," and insert instead thereof the words "any treatment or."—[Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister.]


I beg to move, in page 12, line 15, at the end, to insert the words 'Substantial change by reason of a manufacturing process' does not include a change effected in any textile material by way of bleaching, dyeing, or finishing. I think the House of Commons ought to make up its mind here and now that one of the things that should not be left to the whims and fancies of the committee to be set up is the question of what happens to English cloth if it goes out of this country for treatment and then comes back here. If the words of my Amendment be not inserted in the Clause, cloth manufactured in this country which goes out of this country for a special process of finishing, on coming hack here is liable to be treated as of foreign manufacture. If we desired by this Bill to advertise foreign goods that would be the best way of doing it. When we send cloth out for some process and it comes back here, we do not want it to be marked "German" or "French" or anything else; it should retain its character as English, having been made in this country. Not only that which remains in this country but that which goes out should be covered by the Amendment. I hope that the Minister will see the reasonableness of the request and will insert some words which would remove this danger from affecting a trade which is already in too bad a way from other causes.


I beg to second the Amendment.


I cannot accept the Amendment as it stands. It would be inconsistent with what we have already done. Sub-section (3) states that: For the purposes of this Act, imported goods shall be deemed to have been manufactured in the country in which they last underwent before importation a substantial change by reason of a manufacturing process. 11.0 P.M.

There may be processes which are not substantial, and on the other hand processes of a large, expensive and complicated character, which really do change the character of the goods. It would be unreasonable to insert an exception which covers the whole of those goods. But there is some reason in what the Mover of the Amendment has said. He should remember that there is no generally operative Order, but that every case has to be decided on its merits. What I propose to do is to see that. in another place words are inserted which will make it plain that., even where an Order has been made covering articles of this kind, it shall be permissible to mark them "Foreign dyed" or in some such way instead of marking the goods as "Foreign," thus suggesting that they are wholly foreign. I think that is a reasonable proposal.


Does the right hon. Gentleman think it is a good thing to advertise foreign dyers, and does he think his proposal is going to help British manufacturers, especially in Lancashire? His proposal means that when they send their goods to be dyed or finished abroad the goods will come back bearing a foreign brand. I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman might insert some more satisfactory words than those he proposes and if he cannot accept the proposal of the Amendment perhaps he himself is a little more ingenious and might find other words, especially after consulting Lancashire Chambers of Trade.


The short answer to that is that if the people who make the cloth do not want it marked it need not be marked.


It may be too late to make any alteration at this stage, but I cannot help viewing with great alarm the prospect which has been opened up by the answer of the Minister. There is in Lancashire and Yorkshire a great industry in the production of cloth which may go to Germany or France to be bleached or dyed or finished. If when that cloth comes in again, it is to be marked "Foreign dyed" or anything of that sort it will be a serious matter, and I beg of the right hon. Gentleman to consider what an enormous proportion of cloth going out from this country will be so marked. Such a proposal would be calamity. I think it is of vital importance that something should be done to make this matter quite clear. We should not quarrel about details but surely this House cannot contemplate taking this step in relation to an enormous industry on which a great deal of England is dependent and compelling that industry in the ordinary course of its business to have its products marked "Foreign dyed" or "Foreign finished." The right hon. Gentleman I submit must find some way other than this to help the people in Lancashire and in the West. Biding of Yorkshire to go on doing what they have been doing for generations without being subject to this liability.


I very much regret that the Minister did not see his way to accept this Amendment. To my mind it is a serious prospect if cotton goods woven in Lancashire and sent abroad to undergo some interim-diary process of dying or bleaching are to be sent back here to be made up and re-exported abroad with some mark on them of a character to suggest that the intermediary process had been done abroad. That will inform individuals abroad that there is some process which is not done in Lancashire and will be an incentive to them to import that material in its unfinished state and to get the inter- mediary process done themselves in some foreign country. It is a great mistake to suggest that it would be possible for any Committee to decide whether or not articles of this character should be branded because some intermediary process has been performed abroad. I understand that the, President's reply to this objection would be that, after all, articles exported are not necessarily going to be marked at all, but the point is that goods are sent abroad to be finished or dyed. They return to this country and nobody knows whether these particular goods are going to be sent abroad or not, and therefore it is impossible for a Committee not knowing the technicalities to decide. I do hope that the President will reconsider this matter and see that some suitable form of words is devised between now and the Bill going to another place and see that the very important interests of Lancashire, which, after all, has the greatest exporting industry in this country and which is very hardly hit at the present time, are properly safeguarded.


The hon. Member who has just spoken has been quite misled, naturally, by what was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb). It is not a case of a compulsory Order at all and there is nothing in this Bill which orders any single article made in Lancashire or anywhere else to be marked. They will only be marked if the people who make those goods—[HON. MEMBERS: "No. The dyers."] The people who apply would naturally be the makers of the goods. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] It is extremely unlikely that the dyer would apply but if the dyer did apply for such an Order, the maker of the goods would obviously be entitled to be heard.

Lieut.-Commander ASTBURY

I trust the right hon. Gentleman will not accept this Amendment and that he will not alter the wording when it goes to another place. What is going on? It is merely that the merchant in Manchester buys his yarn in Lancashire and then, in order that he may get it dyed a little more cheaply in a foreign country, say Italy or France, where there are longer hours and lower wages, gets it finished there. They are not British goods. They are foreign goods just in the same way as goods are put on to the home market the major part of which have been completed abroad. Let us have the whole of the work done in this country.

Major C RAWFURD rose


I think the hon. Member seconded the Amendment.


I hope the President of the Board of Trade will not propose, in another place, to have words inserted as suggested. I entirely dissent from the view expressed by one of my hon. Friends who spoke before. Speaking as a manufacturer, we feel that a good deal of our troubles in Lancashire to-day are caused by the operations of people who run their works 00 per cent. and pay 16 per cent. dividend, and there is no question that the actual manufacturers of commodities in Lancashire, the capitalists in the spinning and weaving trade, are entirely opposed to the attitude which is taken up by the calico printers and dyers. There is another point to be borne in mind and that is that we have on the Statute Book a Dyestuffs Act. We have spent a good deal of money in trying to secure for British dyestuffs that supremacy which we hope every British industry will attain. The great difficulty will be, If these goods are to be brought back after being dyed in a foreign country and if they are to have the mark "foreign dyed" put on them, and if British-dyed goods have no mark put on them, that we shall be deliberately setting out to disparage our own industry. I hope that if the President of the Board of Trade cannot accept this Amendment in its present form he will, in another place, try to frame an Amendment which will more nearly meet the terms of this Amendment than the word which he himself advocates.


The voice of Yorkshire has not yet been heard. So far as Yorkshire is concerned the arguments which have been put forward from Lancashire do not apply to the same extent, because in the West Riding, our goods are mainly sent abroad by manufacturers. I am perfectly certain from the comments I have heard in regard to this proposal that it is strongly resented by the textile industry in the West Riding and I would advise the President of the Board of Trade to show a spirit of conciliation upon this matter. I would like to com- ment upon one extraordinary aspect from the point of view of British trade in this matter. The method adopted by the promoters of this Bill is calculated by sending the goods made in this country abroad to he stamped after either being dyed or bleached to advertise the shortcomings of British trade and the excellence of the treatment of other countries. Nothing could be more foolish and short-sighted than that. I hope that the, President of the Board of Trade will find some way to meet that practical difficulty.


I would like to associate myself with what has been said by the hon. Member for Rossendale (Mr. Waddington). There is no question as to the effect this will have unless we get a promise from the President of the Board of Trade to make some Amendment in another place. We have so many goods in Lancashire which in some cases have to go abroad and he printed. It is a question of price and of keeping the competitive price in this matter.

Captain BENN

Before we dispose of this Amendment, it would be well that the House should understand exactly what, are the intentions of the President of the Board of Trade. At the start he told us that none of this cloth would be stamped except at the desire of the manufacturers, but it immediately became apparent that other people would come in, those interested in the dyeing process. What does the President of the Board of Trade intend to do? Does he, in another place, intend to accept the Amendment of my hon. Friend, or does he still intend to have the goods stamped, not "German foreign cloth," but "Best foreign cloth"? Or does the right hon. Gentleman intend to satisfy

the dyers and have the cloth stamped "Guaranteed German dyed"?

He must do one or ether. He may not be able to control the stamping, but as long as the word "foreign" appears, any adjective may be added. The House is entitled to know what the Government proposes to do.


The offer I made was that there should be power to put on, "foreign dyed," which would indicate foreign manufacture. I am quite willing that this point should be discussed in another place. I think it is a, reasonable offer. The difficulty of this question has been greatly exaggerated. There are two sets of critics and in their desire as to what should be done, they have mutually destroyed each other. There is keen opposition between the dyers and the cloth-makers. The cloth-makers want to be able to deal with the foreign dyers, and the dyers want to make the cloth-makers have their goods dyed in this country. Note what will happen. The cloth-maker, if he does not wish the cloth to be marked will not apply for a marking order—and the dyer will not. The dyer says that the last thing he wants is to give an opportunity for cloth to be marked "foreign dyed." I accept from both sets of speakers, who have spoken with great authority, their point of view, and while they are in direct opposition on most points, they are in complete unity on one thing. The clothmakers and the dyers have not the least desire to have goods marked "foreign manufacture," or "foreign dyed." As they are both agreed that the last thing they desire is an order, what on earth are we arguing about?

Question put: "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 100; Noes, 222.

Division No. 496.] AYES. [11.18 p.m.
Adamson, w. M. (Staff., Cannock) Dalton, Hugh Gosling, Harry
Amman, Charles George Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Greenwood, A. {Nelson and Colne)
Attlee, Clement Richard Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Baker, Walter Davies, Dr. Vernon Grundy, T. W.
Barnes, A. Day, Colonel Harry Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)
Batey, Joseph Dennison, R. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Duckworth, John Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Bromfield, William Duncan, C. Hamilton. Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Bromley, J. Dunnico, H. Hammersley, S. S.
Buchanan, G. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Hardie, George D.
Charleton, H. C. England, Colonel A. Harris, Percy A.
Clowes. S. Forrest, W. Hayday, Arthur
Cluse, W.'S. Gardner, J. P. Hayes, John Henry
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Gibbins, Joseph Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Crawford, H. E. Gillett, George M. Hirst, G. H.
Hore-Belisha, Leslie Potts, John S. Stephen, Campbell
Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Purcell, A. A. Sullivan, J.
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Rees, Sir Beddoe Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Townend, A. E.
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Riley, Ben Waddington, R.
Kelly, W. T. Robinson, Sir T. (Lanc, Stretfort) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Kennedy, T. Robinson, W.C. (Yorks, W. R.,Elland) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Lansbury, George Saklatvala, Shapurji Westwood, J.
Lawrence, Susan Sandeman, A. Stewart Wiggins, William Martin
Lee, F. Scrymgeour, E. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Lindley, F. W. Scurr, John Williams, David (Swansea. E.)
Lunn, William Sexton, James Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
MacLaren, Andrew Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Wilson. C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Sinclair. Major Sir A. (Caithness) Windsor, Walter
March, S. Sitch, Charles H. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Maxton, James Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Naylor, T. E. Smith Ben (Bermondsey. Rotherhiths) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Oliver, George Harold Smith, H. B, Lees- (Keigh'ey) Sir Robert Hutchison and Major
Paling, W. Spoor, Rt. Hon Benjamin Charles Owen.
Ponsonby, Arthur Stamford, T. W.
Acland-Troyte. Lieut. Colonel Ellis, R. G. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon, Sir James T. Elvedon, Viscount Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Albery, Irving James Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-S-M.) Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Everard, W. Lindsay McLean, Major A.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K Fairfax. Captain J. G. Macmillan, Captain H.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Falle, Sir Bertram G. Macnagmen, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Astbury, Lieut-Commander F. W. Fielden, E. B. McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Finburgh, S. Macquisten, F. A.
Astor, Viscountess Ford, Sir P. J. MacRobert, Alexander M.
Atholl. Duchess of Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. steel-
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Foster, Sir Harry S. Malone, Major P. B.
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Balniel, Lord Fraser, Captain Ian Meller, R. J.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Frece, Sir Walter de Merrlman, F. B.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Fremantle, Lieut-Colonel Francis E. Meyer, Sir Frank
Bethel, A. Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Mitchell. S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Betterton, Henry B. Galbraith, J. F. W. Mitchell, W, Foot (Saffron Walden)
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Ganzoni, Sir John Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Gates, Percy Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Blundell, F. N. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Moore, Sir Newton J.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T, C.
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Goff, Sir Park Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Braithwaite, A. R. Gower, sir Robert Murchlson, C. K.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Grace, John Neville, R. J.
Briggs, J. Harold Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Briscoe, Richard George Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Brittain. Sir Harry Greene, W. P. Crawford Nuttall, Ellis
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Grotrian, H. Brent O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks,Newb'y) Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Buckingham, Sir H. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Penny, Frederick George
Bullock, Captain M. Hall. Vice-Admiral Sir r, (Eastbourne) Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Burman, J. R Hanbury, c. Perring, Sir William George
Burton, Colonel H. W, Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Butler, Sir Geuthrey Harrison, G, J. C. Plelou, D. P.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hartington, Marquess of Power, Sir John Cecil
Campbell, E. T. Harvey, Major S. E. {Devon, Totnes) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt.R.(Prtsmth.S.) Haslam, Kenry C. Price, Major C. W. M.
Cazalct, Captain Victor A. Hawke. John Anthony Radford, E. A.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Raine, W.
Chapman, Sir S. Henderson, Lieut.-Col, V. L. (Bootle) Rawson, Sir Cooper
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Hennessy, Major J, R. G. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Chilcott, Sir Warden Herbert. Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Held, O. D. (County Down)
Christie, J. A. Horbert,S.(York, N.R., Scar, & Wh'by) Remer, J, R.
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Hills, Major John Waller Rice, Sir Frederick
Clarry, Reginald George Hogg, Rt. Hon.Sir D.(St.Marylebone) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Holt. Captain H. P. Ropner, Major L.
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K, Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Courtauld, Major J. S. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney,N.) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Cowan, Sir Win. Henry (Islington, N.) Hudson, R, S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Rye, F. G.
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Hiffe, Sir Edward M. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) Jackson, sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Jephcott, A. R. Sandon, Lord
Curzon, Captain Viscount Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Dalziel, Sir Davison King, Captain Henry Douglas Savery, S. S.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Shaw, Lt.-Col.A. D. Mcl. (Henfrew, W.)
Dawson, Sir Philip Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Shaw, Capt. Walter (Wilts, Westb'y)
Dean, Arthur Wellesley Little, Dr. E. Graham Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Drewe, C. Loder, J. de V. Shepperson, E. W.
Eden, Captain Anthony Lord. Walter Greaves- Skelton, A. N.
Edmondson, Major A. J. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Elliot, Major Walter E. Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Smithers, Waldron
Sprot, Sir Alexander Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl
Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.) Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. p. Wise, Sir Fredric
Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Wallace, Captain D. E. Wolmer, Viscount
Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Womersley, W. J
Storry-Deans, R. Waterhouse, Captain Charles Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Wood, E. (Cnester, staiy'b'ge & Hyde)
Streatfield, Captain S. R. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Wood, sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Watts, Dr. T. Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Wells, S. R. Wragg, Herbert
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Templeton, W. P. White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-
Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Major Cope and Captain Mar-
Thornton, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) gesson.
Tinne, J. A. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Question put, and agreed to.


I beg to move, in page 12, line 38, after the word "cooking" to insert the words "curing, or preserving."

We had a discussion in Committee about tinned vegetables and potted meats and it was thought that such products involved a substantial change and should be free from the necessity of being marked as foreign or Dominion produce by reason of the raw material being subject to a marking Order. It was thought that this point should be made clear by adding the words "curing, or preserving" after the word "cooking." The case is probably covered by the provision about substantial change which we inserted this evening under the definition of imported goods. There were points about cooking in a restaurant or the selling of cooked goods, and we think it will resolve any doubts on this point if we insert the words "curing, or preserving."


I quite appreciate that this Amendment is the result of representations which I made during the Committee stage. I want, however, to be quite clear about the result. In many streets of London there are often two fish shops almost adjoining one another, one known as a "wet fish shop" and the other a "fried fish shop," where they cook herrings. The cooked herrings would be unbranded, and the others would not.


Any case of the marking of fish raises a very special question. It is not clear what is meant by a "foreign fish." Would any fish caught outside the three-mile limit be a foreign fish? I really cannot give the hon. Member a definition on that point.


I can give the right hon. Gentleman a definition of what constitutes a "foreign fish." It is a fish caught by a foreign fisherman from a foreign boat with a foreign net.

Amendment agreed to.