HC Deb 11 November 1926 vol 199 cc1317-21
Colonel ASHLEY

I beg to move, in page 20, line 34, at the end, to insert the words and payment to the Minister of Transport of any expenses and liabilities incurred by him before the commencement of this Act preliminary to the preparation of such schemes, together with interest in either case at the rate of five per cent. per annum. If the House will turn to Clause 24, they will see that all sums received by the Board shall be paid into a separate fund, and out of that fund various things shall be paid, including, at the end of the Clause, repayment to the Electricity Commissioners of any expenses incurred in the preparation of any schemes under this Act. That was inserted in Committee so that the Electricity Commissioners should be paid. I desire to move the present Amendment because it seems only right and proper that, if the Board makes use of figures, data and surveys made by the Ministry, then the cost should be repaid by the industry to the taxpayer. I am in the recollection of the House when I point out that in July last year, I think, I presented a Supplementary Estimate under the following heading: Special services and inquiries to cover the fees and expenses of consulting engineers and the expenses of a technical survey and joint scheme for the transmission of electricity in Great Britain. In the Estimates this year a further Vote was taken under the same sub-head for work during this year. I only explain this to the House so that they may know how the matter stands. We are doing this so that there shall not be the interminable delay in getting the work done when this Bill becomes law. If this step were not taken, it would mean a delay. There has already beers a wait of 12 or 18 months for the necessary legislation. That has been perhaps inevitable and unavoidable. It will hold up electrical projects, but it cannot be helped when you have legislation; but it is the duty of far-seeing people to prevent any avoidable delay when the Bill becomes law, and consequently we have taken this step.

Colonel GRETTON

The Minister of Transport gave an explanation to the House including a figure involved in the Supplementary Vote. Can he tell the House how much money is involved in this Amendment?

Colonel ASHLEY

The Supplementary Estimate, my right hon. Friend will remember, was £15,000, and the Vote, this year will be, I think, £10,000. Anyhow, the total sum would be round about £25,000.

Mr. BALFOUR

This Amendment is put before us to enable the authorities, after the Bill become law, to pay any expenses incurred before the commencement of the Act. It is noticeable that this special provision is being brought in by way of an Amendment, and does not appear in the original Bill. The Amendment says expenses and liabilities incurred by him before the commencement of this Act. This raises some very serious considerations. The expenses incurred prior to the passing of this Act relate to certain things that are going on at the present moment. During the emergency sitting, a question was asked about certain instructions which had been given throughout the country. I know that the secretary of two companies received a letter which I shall be quite pleased to show to the Minister of Transport, and I am quite willing to give any information on this point to any hon. Gentleman opposite. The letter I refer to is addressed to the secretary of a power company operating in an area covering 2,500 square miles.

The letter is from the Electricity Commissioners asking for information about the station belonging to this company to enable them to estimate the cost of production if their station should be selected for operation by the Central Electricity Board, and they point out the manner in which the cost is to be computed which is to be as set out in the Electricity Supply Bill, a copy of which was enclosed. May I point out to hon. Members that that relates to a copy of a Bill which has not yet been adopted by this House, and which has not received any consideration at all in another place, and yet it has been circulated by the Electricity Commissioners, and expenditure has been incurred which has ultimately to be met out of moneys to be provided within the scope of this Amendment. The letter to these companies goes on to say that the Electricity Commissioners will be pleased to have the detailed costs set out in Section (a) of the second Schedule and Sections (b) and (c). The letter concludes by saying: The time allowed for the preparation of the information required is very short, and we should be glad to have the same as soon as possible. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] It must be remembered that we have to deal with this question from the point of view of legislation. The Minister of Transport has already said: If and when this Bill becomes law there must be no delay in getting this work done. I would like to know if the Minister approves of sending out this Bill as it was originally drafted in view of the fact that it may be altered. Is it suggested that another place has not full discretion to do whatever they desire, or is it contended that the right hon. Gentleman holds the other place in such contempt that it agrees to the circulation of a Bill asking for information in the terms of the Bill when those terms have been altered in this House within the last few days. We have not yet even arrived at the Schedules of the Bill. I do ask hon. Members opposite to be good enough w confine their attention to the consideration of this Amendment. My point is that this Bill which has not been passed, has been sent round by the Department asking for information required under this Bill, and has been incurring expenditure which has to be repaid under the provisions of this Amendment. Consequently you are putting these undertakings to the expense of preparing the necessary information—which of course they are most anxious to do, because they are quite ready to fall in with any regular demand or request made upon them. What I submit, however, is that it requires a very wide stretch of the imagination to reconcile action of this kind by the Department with the proper conduct of affairs in this House. or a due regard to the privileges of this House, to say nothing of the privileges of another place.

Colonel ASHLEY

The answer to that is—

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Captain FitzRoy)

The right hon. Gentleman has already spoken once. I do not know that it is necessary to pursue this matter further, but of course as the Mover of the Amendment he is entitled to reply. Does the right hon. Gentleman wish to make a speech in reply?

Mr. JOHNSTON

I do not think I ever heard such a weak case put forward as that to which we have just listened. The argument used by the hon. Member for Hampstead is that because this Bill has not vet become an Act of Parliament it should not have been sent round to various bodies throughout the country.

Mr. BALFOUR

I am aware that anybody can send a Bill round, and ask for opinions and criticisms upon it. But a public Department should not send it out, and incur expense for the purpose of having things done under a Bill as though it were an Act of Parliament.

Mr. JOHNSTON

Surely any Minister of Transport who is worth his salt and requires information on which the House is to take action, would be bound to make such inquiries. Any member of the public can get this Bill for the payment of 9d., and therefore there is no breach of privilege at all about this matter. If the Minister of Transport cares to ask any electrical authorities to supply him with information based upon a certain schedule in this Bill, I cannot for the life of me see where there is the slightest breach of privilege. What is the use of hon. Members opposite taking up the time of this House in this way?

Amendment agreed to.