§ Mr. BANKSbeg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Licensing Act, 1921.The principal object of the Bill is to alter those provisions of the Licensing Act, 1921, which regulate the hours for the sale and supply of intoxicating liquor. The most important of those provisions permits intoxicating liquor to be sold or supplied over a total period of eight hours, from 11 o'clock in the morning until 10 o'clock at night, with a break of at least two hours in the afternoon, and in the Metropolis the total period is nine hours, terminating not later than 11 o'clock at night. Those are called the permitted hours of sale, and by the Act they were to be distributed, pending the issue of Orders, in each licensing district, by licensing justices as follows: In London, from 11.30 in the morning to three in the afternoon, and from 5.30 to 11 in the evening; elsewhere, from 11.30 in the morning to three in the afternoon, and in the evening from 5.30 to 10 o'clock.I refrain from dealing with the Sunday hours on account of the shortness of time at my disposal, but it will be noted that the licensing justices within these prescribed limits were to distribute the hours for public-houses as they thought best. This power they exercise, as everybody knows, at their general annual meeting after having given public notice of their intention to discuss the subject, and after taking such steps as they think best to ascertain local opinion. On the other hand, it will be recollected that clubs have power to distribute the hours as they think best in accordance with the direction of their Rules. The present Bill proposes to substitute far weekdays a statutory scale of hours of sale as follows: As respects licensed premises and clubs in the Metropolis, from 11 a.m. to 11 p.m., with a break of at least two hours in the afternoon; in cities, county 438 boroughs, towns, and populous places, which are defined roughly in accordance with the principles of the old Act, from 10.30 a.m. to 10.30 p.m., with the same break; and elsewhere, from 10 a.m. to 10 p.m., with the same compulsorily break. There are also provisions in the Bill for Sunday hours, which I need not go into, except to say that the provisions do not extend the total period, but fix the Sunday evening hours as from seven to 10.
Some very deplorable consequences have arisen from the provisions of the Licensing Act, 1921. The first, which is particularly noticeable in the Metropolis, is the lack of uniformity of hours between the various licensing divisions. It is not necessary to multiply instances. One example will suffice. On the North side of Oxford Street all public-houses are closed at 10 p.m., while on the South side they are open till 11 p.m., with the result that every night there is a nocturnal migration from the Sahara of St. Marylebone to the Oasis of St. George's, Hanover Square. While on the North sick of the street all is dark and dry at 11 o'clock—
§ Mr. BANKSI am obliged to the Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor) for her cheers, because she will realise how absurd it is—that on the other side of the street the houses are congested to overflowing, which is uncomfortable to the customers, dangerous for the publican, and difficult for the police. Of course, if the Noble Lady will allow me to say so, to the foreign visitor, especially from America, it is a, typical example of British hypocrisy and imbecility. Meanwhile—and I am sure this will appeal very forcibly to the Noble Lady — the strenuous consumer of alcohol under the present system positively gets his period of activities extended, because he can begin early on one side of the street, and 439 finish late on the other. Really, I believe there is on the question of the desirability of uniform hours, with reasonable exceptions in the case of bonâfide restaurants, a general concensus of opinion. The controversy really rages round the question whether the final hour shall he 11 p.m. or 10 p.m.
It will be noticed that in this Bill there is no proposal to revert to the pre-War hours. I am informed that the licensed victuallers themselves are not desirous of doing so, though the House will not forget that they are continuing to pay the same duties with curtailed opportunities of trading. But I am strongly of opinion that the public at large consider that in great cities like London they should have facilities for obtaining intoxicating liquors till at least 11 o'clock in the evening. I do submit that it is a reasonable proposition that licensing hours should be fixed not merely to please those who never use licensed premises any more than we would open picture galleries to please the blind, or have concerts arranged at hours convenient to the deaf, but in the main, those who do use licensed premises. In the absence of any definite proof of disorder or intemperance, the public at large have the right to be consulted, and the thwarting of such a reasonable demand only results in the circumstances which we see and deplore at the present time, namely, in the constant evasion of the law and in the multiplication of undesirable night clubs.
The worst feature of the present system seems to be this. Parliament in 1921—a period when many unusual compromises were effected—evaded its responsibilities and placed upon the licensing magistrates a duty which in my opinion it was not fair to place upon them and which they cannot discharge satisfactorily. I would like to say that I believe with all my heart that the magistrates of this country are the most incorruptible magistrates in the world, and I have perfect confidence in their judgment whenever they are exercising that judgment upon a judicial question. But this is not an absolutely judicial question. It is largely a moral question; with some persons, it is almost a religious question, and I venture to say that in these circumstances prejudice is ingrained and unavoidable. I have had consider- 440 able experience of practicing in Licensing Courts, and, believe me, there is a certain type of countenance which I can recognise at a glance. It is usually accompanied by white whiskers and a black bow tie and indicates a mind impermeable to any argument on this particular topic.
With regard to the proceedings, those who have had experience of them, I think, will agree that they are useless and most undignified. To say that public opinion is really consulted or represented at these hearings is ludicrous to anybody who has had any practical experience. Busy people, it is obvious, during the hours w hen these functions take place, between 10.30 and mid-day, are engaged in attending to their own business, and the Court is filled with people who can afford to attend and who interest themselves interfering with the business of their neighbors, which they usually describe as social work. I do not know why it is that the Court always seems to be filled with characters from the pages of Charles Dickens. On the one hand you have the Rev. Melchisedech Howler, accompanied by acidulated and dyspeptic females—frumps of both sexes—and, on the other hand, you either have an advocate pleading according to his instructions, or else you have occasionally some volunteer, whose appearance generally suggests that he makes the fullest use of the hours at present at his disposal. But normal humanity is about its business and is unrepresented and is not heard upon these occasions.
To the system of local option, I cherish grave and, I believe, well-founded objections, but I will concede this point: It does give every individual citizen the chance of recording his opinion. Of course, in frequent cases it is stultified by the opinion of other persons who have made up their minds to down him at all costs, but still he gets his chance of recording his opinion. The provision of statutory hours has this recommendation. It records the opinion of Parliament and pressure can be applied to Parliament by the constituencies in various ways, end it extinguishes this useless and undignified controversy. I hope that the House will give me leave to introduce this Bill, because, whether its details are acceptable or not, at any late it abolishes the present indefensible 441 system, which is anomalous, undignified and exasperating.
Viscountess ASTORWe have heard, as usual, a very amusing and witty, but I do not think an altogether convincing, speech from the hon. and learned Gentleman. He talks about the justice of the licensing magistrates. They are just in everything except when it comes to the question of drink. I think the country can go on trusting them even there. We all know there is not the slightest chance of this House altering the hours of drink now, because the interest for which the hon. and learned Gentleman has just spoken has ever since 1921 been pressing to extend the hours of drink with failure throughout the country. Throughout the country they have never got on with it, because the conscience of the country is against it. When he talks about local action, I only wish that the hon. and learned Gentleman would carry his democracy that far, and give the people a chance of expressing their will on the subject of drink. It is the only thing on which they have not been allowed to do so, because the fact of asking people what they think about drink at once calls up again what he calls an organisation, an organisation more powerful than perhaps any single political organisation in the country to-day—the drink trade. I do not know that it operates in only one party. It operates in all, and Members who are interested in temperance realise that we who are fighting for reform always come up against what we hive heard to-day. What did he call them? Long-faced fanatics meddling with other people's business. I would like to remind the House that if it had not been for the long-faced fanatics there would have been no moral reforms ever got in the world. The very people you are making fun of are the people who have braved public opinion and have stood up for moral reforms. I do hope the House will realise that it is not the country which is pressing for this Bill, but the drink trade. It is always bringing its pressure to hear under the guise of democracy, and I trust very much that the hon. and learned Gentleman will realise that some of us who are fighting for temperance reform are not fanatics and are not morally obsessed—
§ Mr. BANKSI did not say "fanatics," I said "frumps." I can say this to the Noble Lady. She is one of the few I know who unite a charming personality to a frumpish psychology.
Viscountess ASTORI am not in the least ashamed of my frumpish psychology. What you call "frumpish psychology" is steadily grading down, not only in this country but throughout the British Empire, and some day the House will realise that "frumpish psychology" is really the thing which has made England and the thing which, I am quite certain, the hon. and learned Member thinks very little of, but which we like to call the puritanical reforms which the Anglo-Saxon nations have always fought for and are still fighting for. We who fight for moral and spiritual aims are always laughed at as being frumpish, and so on. We do not mind. I do beg to remind the Members of my own party that within the party we have a very grave danger. We have got a powerful trade always trying to put us off the track. They tell you that if you once touch the drink trade you are ruining the freedom of the citizens of this country. Do remember that whenever you go into the question of drink you always come up against the hidden hand which they say is operating at Geneva. It is always operating in politics in this country. The hon. and learned Gentleman, I know, represents the trade.
§ Mr. HARDIEWhich supports your party.
§ Mr. SPEAKERInterruptions are not fair when an hon. Member is addressing the House under the 10 minutes Rule.
Viscountess ASTORI did not know this Bill was coming on, and I did not prepare for it. I look upon the drink trade as a menace to all parties and a menace to the country. With due respect to hon. Members opposite, if they fought it in their party in the way I have fought it in mine, we would soon get rid of it. I do hope the House will realise that it is not the desire of the country to have extended hours or uniform hours. They are being properly dealt with in the hands of the licensing justices. In different parts of London they have different habits 443 and different tastes, and it is no good comparing one district with another. We can only rejoice that there are districts which go to bed early. I hope hon. Members on this side will realise that this Bill has nothing to do with the will of the country. It is solely the desire of that highly organised, undemocratic and
§ dangerous body which calls itself "the trade," and which is always against all moral, religious and spiritual reform.
§ Question put, "That, leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Licensing Act, 1921."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 172; Noes, 115.
445| Division No. 94.] | AYES. | [4.15 p.m. |
| Acland- Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Everard, W. Lindsay | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Pielou, D. P. |
| Ainsworth, Major Charles | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Albery, Irving James | Fanshawe, Commander G. D. | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Fermoy, Lord | Preston, William |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W. Derby) | Fielden, E. B. | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Fisnburgh, S. | Raine, W. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Fraser, Captain Ian | Ramsden, E. |
| Ashmead-Bartlett, E. | Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) |
| Banks, Reginald Mitchell | Gates, Percy | Remer, J. R. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Remnant, Sir James |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Rice, Sir Frederick |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Goff, Sir Park | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Gower, Sir Robert | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) |
| Bethel, A. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Grotrian, H. Brent | Salmon, Major I. |
| Bowater, sir T. Vansittart | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Hall, Lieut.-Col Sir F. (Dulwich) | Sandeman, A. Stewart |
| Bowyer, Captain G, E. W. | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Brass, Captain W. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Savery, S. S. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) |
| Brittain, sir Harry | Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) | Shaw, Capt. W, W. (Wilts, Westb'y) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Herberts.(York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by) | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks,Newb'y) | Hirst, G. H. | Smithers, Waldron |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Howard, Captain Hon. Donald | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Huntingfield, Lord | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Hutchison, G. A.Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Strickland, Sir Gerald |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Kennedy, T. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Titchfield, Major the Marguess of |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Lamb, J. Q. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Varley, Frank B. |
| Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. | Lumley, L. R. | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Warner. Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Connolly, M. | Macintyre, Ian | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | McLean, Major A. | Watts, Dr T. |
| Cope, Major William | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. | Malone, Major P. B. | Wells. S. R. |
| Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N) | Margesson, Captain D. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Meller, R. J. | Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Meyer, Sir Frank | Wilson, R R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Crookshank, Cpt.H. (Lindsey,Gainsbro) | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Windsor, Walter |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Windsor-Clive. Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Dalton, Hugh | Murchison, C. K. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Woodcock. Colonel H. C. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Nicholson, Cot. Rt. Hn. W.G. (Ptrsf'ld.) | |
| Dennison, R. | Oakley, T. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Mr. Macguisten and Colonel Gretton. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) | Perring, Sir William George | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamscn, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Briant, Frank | Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbre') | Briggs, J. Harold | Buchanan. G. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Broad, F. A. | Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel |
| Barnes, A. | Bromfield, William | Cape, Thomas |
| Batey, Joseph | Bromley, J. | Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Charleton, H. C. |
| Clowes, S. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) |
| Cove, W. G. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Snell, Harry |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Kenyon, Barnet | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Lansbury, George | Spencer, G. A. (Broxfowe) |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Lawson, John James | Stamford, T. W. |
| Dunnico, H. | Lee, F. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Livingstone, A. M. | Taylor, R. A. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Lowth, T. | Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) |
| Forrest, W. | Lunn, William | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Gee, Captain R. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) | Thurtle, E. |
| George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd | MacLaren, Andrew | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Gibbins, Joseph | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Townend, A. E. |
| Gillett, George M. | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Gosling, Harry | March, S. | Viant, S. P. |
| Greenall, T. | Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Montague, Frederick | Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) | Oliver, George Harold | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Hall. G. H, (Merthyr Tydvll) | Palin, John Henry | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Paling, W. | Whiteley, W. |
| Hardie, George D. | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Hastings, Sir Patrick | Ponsonby, Arthur | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Hayes, John Henry | Potts, John S. | Wilson, R. J, (Jarrow) |
| Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Riley, Ben | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Rose, Frank H. | Wright, W. |
| Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Scrymgeour, E. | |
| Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Scurr, John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hume, Sir G. H. | Sexton, James | Viscountess Astor and Sir John Simon. |
| John, William (Rhondda, West) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
Resolutions agreed to.
§ Mr. THURTLEOn a point of Order. May I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, that the names of the Tellers you gave out in favour of the Bill were the hon. Member for Berwick (Mrs. Philipson) and the hon. and learned Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macquisten), and those two Tellers were not acting on behalf of the Ayes.
§ Mr. MACQUISTENI am the Member for Argyllshire, and I acted.
§ Mr. SPEAKEROne of the Tellers first named was unwilling to act, and when I was so informed I named another Teller, who volunteered for that purpose.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Banks, Mr. Greaves-Lord, Colonel Sir Arthur Holbrook, Mr. Ashmead-Bartlett, Major Sir Richard Barnett, Sir Philip Dawson, Mr. Clarry, Mr. Berner, Colonel Grant Morden and Mr. Meller.
§
LICENSING ACT (1921) AMENDMENT BILL,
to amend the Licensing Act, 1921," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 14th May, and to be printed. [Bill 68.]